Hideout, Sprinter Campfire, Cougar 1/2 ton “Quality”?

[Fishwater]

We are considering trading our 2017 Flagstaff 831BHDS for a fifth wheel. We had a Passport & traded it for the Flagstaff, we picked the Flagstaff because the quality of the build was really good, tons of great features like frameless windows, walk on roof, vacuum bonded walls, etc. Now our camping needs have changed slightly & with two young ones I really want us to travel further & explore new areas which to me means a fifth wheel.

We are back to Keystone again looking at the various models & at a price point of under $40k. Fortunately our tow vehicle is a 2015 F-350 diesel with 3600lbs of payload so I’m not too concerned with pin weight of most light 5er’s. What I am concerned about is quality at this price point & trying to understand construction on these models. Unfortunately Keystone no longer provides build information in their brochures which I’m sure is for a reason! Anyway, I know most everything built today is terrible, I worked in the industry in the past & did plenty of factory visits so I kind of know what I’m getting into to.

Besides the obvious trim differences what are some of construction differences between the Hideout, Sprinter Campfire & Cougar half ton fifth wheels? Are there any key differences worth the price of admission? We are specifically looking at bunkhouse models like the 308BHDS, 32FWBH & 32BHS. TIA....

[JRTJH]

The actual "quality" of any Keystone RV is going to be essentially the same. Workers move around the plants to construct what is needed. While typically assigned to one plant (brand) if there is a need, they push their toolbox across the parking lot or down the ramp to another building. So, in reality, you might have a Montana cabinetmaker building cabinets for a Hideout and you might have a Springdale cabinet maker building cabinets for a Montana High Country or Alpine the next week.

From what I can determine (haven't been to the factory in a couple of years) the build is close to the same, attention to trim is more critically watched as the priceline goes up. Features that weren't even an option on trailers 3 years ago are standard "no option options" on today's RV's. Things like solar capability, multiple TV's, dual baths, built in vacuum, integrated control systems (vs manual switches) leveling systems, improved LED lighting are all fairly well standard in today's "entry level" RV.

Things to watch for are bed size, storage space size, tire size/GVW, tank size and type. As examples, Cougar half ton fifth wheels only come with a "RV Queen main bed. Sprinter Campfire has a full 60x80 bed. Hideout's bunkhouse has 2 bathrooms, but only 1 gray tank for the galley. The baths share gray/black tank duty with 2 black tanks, one for each bath. In other words, the shower and sink in the main bath drain into the black tank and the sink (in the upper bath) drains into the black tank.

The Sprinter Campfire 29FWBH comes with 15" LRE tires. The GVW is 11860. That puts it squarely in the same category as the smaller Cougar (not half ton) GVW range which all come equipped with 16" tires.

I'd suggest getting the specs and brochures for each line you're considering, build a spreadsheet where you can list everything that the brochures say is "on the models" and as you move through the spreadsheet, things that make each model "stand out" will become apparent.

But, as for "how many staples or how much glue is used. If that is a "measure of quality" then few RV's in the price range of "under $40K" will stand out as "well above the rest" .....

[Fishwater]

That is a fantastic well thought out response, much appreciated! Looking between models the Sprinter is most appealing since its a different floor plan with a huge bunkhouse. Our current camper is the two slide, rear bunkhouse that is essentially the same floor plan as the Cougar & Hideout, it works & works well but nothing unique about it. The bonus is of course better towability with but not without added cost when stepping up to the fifth wheel.

[mlarryeliz]

Fishwater, we, too, went from a Flagstaff (26RLWS) to a Sprinter 5th wheel. We bought a 5er a few "clicks" above the price range listed. It placed us in territory to buy a Sprinter 3531FWDEN. I totally agree that the Flagstaff has superb construction build quality. It was a pleasure to own but, like you, our needs changed and we wanted more "sleeping" space. The Sprinter is a good trailer but the cabinet materials are no match for the Flagstaff. They both meet the needs of a weekend/short-term camper and you will have an equally good-time in both. We do not regret buying the Sprinter and have been pleased with it. I totally agree with John and I, too, am a believer in the spreadsheet to place the options side by side. Best wishes on your search and let us know what you decide.

[Fishwater]

Thank you, more to think about & the spreadsheet is probably the best idea since after a while all these campers start to blend together.

[Fishwater]

I went to the dealer yesterday to look at the Sprinter Campfire 32FWBH & the storage was excellent. Impressive underbelly storage, decent outdoor kitchen which is a big plus for me but unfortunately no outdoor sink which I use constantly during food prep. Interior wise again a lot of great storage but some of the cost/weight cutting measures might be a no go for me. Both toilets are plastic, easy to upgrade to porcelain which is a must for us but I was surprised to see plastic in a $46,000 camper. Also there was no main light switch in the bunk room, instead there are the old camper lights with a rocker switch on the light, that’s a problem for the kids at this age since they can’t reach the lights in the ceilings, not sure why they wouldn’t put an easily accessible light switch in a bunk room since most families purchase them for kids? The final concer/question I have long term is the cable slides? There are three big slides in this camper, how are they long term? Easy to adjust for cable stretch?

[sourdough]

Just some thoughts:

Although 46k is a lot of money, in the scheme of things it isn't a lot for a 37' fifth wheel and explains the plastic toilets and some other "cheaper" components I would imagine.

Cable slides for long term. I've had ours now for 5 camping seasons. I adjusted mine once because the slides were binding - they were in spec and still are so I've not had any real problems with them although I think others have. Conversely, other types of slide systems have their issues as well.

Going back to cost cutting I would look at the tires. The trailer has a gvw of 12,000 lbs. It comes with ST225/75R15E tires rated at 2830lbs. each for 11,320 lbs. of total capacity. I know many subtract the pin weight from the total carried on the tires - I do not simply because the full weight of that trailer, and more, will be on them from time to time depending on the circumstance. A fifth wheel won't transfer as much as a bumper pull but it's still there and I would want the security of a higher tire payload.

Just some thoughts as you work through your considerations.

[Fishwater]

Just some thoughts:

Although 46k is a lot of money, in the scheme of things it isn't a lot for a 37' fifth wheel and explains the plastic toilets and some other "cheaper" components I would imagine.

Cable slides for long term. I've had ours now for 5 camping seasons. I adjusted mine once because the slides were binding - they were in spec and still are so I've not had any real problems with them although I think others have. Conversely, other types of slide systems have their issues as well.

Going back to cost cutting I would look at the tires. The trailer has a gvw of 12,000 lbs. It comes with ST225/75R15E tires rated at 2830lbs. each for 11,320 lbs. of total capacity. I know many subtract the pin weight from the total carried on the tires - I do not simply because the full weight of that trailer, and more, will be on them from time to time depending on the circumstance. A fifth wheel won't transfer as much as a bumper pull but it's still there and I would want the security of a higher tire payload.

Just some thoughts as you work through your considerations.

Agreed, in the marketplace 46k is a reasonable price for the size of that camper. I do realize we are paying for multiple slides, length & all the other factors that create the overall cost, I was just really surprised to see plastic toilets since most travel trailers over about $30k have porcelain. Obviously there needs to be cuts somewhere so it stands to reason that would be one of them.

To your point about tires I checked those as well, typical "china bombs" as they are frequently mentioned online, at least the axles have the Lippert version of the More Ryde suspension aka Road Armor. Jayco has most in this class beat with More Ryde 3000 suspension, Dexter wet bolts & Goodyear Endurance tires included on all 2019 models. The 29.5BHOK that we looked at this weekend had that 4 star handling package with upgraded 16" tires, pretty nice set up for towing.

[JRTJH]

If I were in the market for any trailer over 10,000 pound GVW, I'd bypass anything with 15" wheels. Currently there are no tires available with a weight rating greater than 2830 pounds at 80PSI. There is talk of a steel casing Carlisle LRF or LRG 15" tire coming, but I can't find any information on it.

That said, there is simply NO WAY with 10% degredation annually that you can put 15" LRE tires (2830x4=11320) and meet the GVW in 24 months, 11320x80%=9056) So, essentially 15" tires will give you about 18 months of service at or above the GVW, then it's compromised service or buy new tires.

It's just me, but I'd only be looking at trailers with 16" wheels to give me the versatility to increase tire rating without a major upgrade (buying new wheels, tires, hoping for wheelwell clearance and no outriggers under the trailer to interfere)....

While light weight is "ok" (note little letters) for meeting numbers to justify a tow vehicle, that same "light weight build" takes away significant long term reliability and in many cases, durability (plastic vs porcelain toilets). Additionally, many light weight builds "shrink the tank sizes" to help keep load capacity/cargo capacity high enough to keep them "in range with full weight models"...

Between single 1/8" luan backing on FILON to thinner gauge aluminum tubing for frame members, there's a lot of "helium technology" that goes into "light weight RV construction" that's almost "voo doo/hoo doo magic".... The above is just my opinion, and it's real easy to spend your money when I'm not invested in the outcome any more than reading a post on the forum.

That said, do your "down to earth cost analysis vs investment expectations" before you buy an 11K trailer with 15" wheels !!!!! YMMV