New camper/truck

[c_l_phillips72]

Hello and welcome to the forum. Thank you for joining and taking the time to check yourself in. When checking into the forum, tell us a bit about your RV and your tow vehicle - if you have either one or both.

If you wish, you might also want to briefly let us know about your RVing history and family. To be on the safe side, please do not reveal any personal information about you or your family.

Hello all.

About a month ago, I decided that living in Nebraska it might be better to have a 4wd truck vs my 2018 Camaro ZL1, so I made the trade.

I bought a 2019 RAM 1500 and I really like it. It's no where even close to having the same power and speed as the ZL1, but very nice otherwise.

After getting the truck, I started to think about maybe buying some ATV's or campers, etc, and decided to buy a camper.

I went to one of our local camper dealers on Friday just to find out that all of the salesmen were at the Camper/Boat boat show, so that's where I headed.

I looked at a lot of really nice trailers from several different brands, but ended up really liking the Keystone Hideout HI29DFS.

I am recently divorced with shared custody of my 9 year old son, so I'm really looking forward to making some nice memories with him in our new camper.

I got finance approval on Saturday, and they dealer is supposed to call me in the next day or so to set up my delivery time. Unfortunately, it looks like the weather isn't going to cooperate for a weekend trip at a local state park in the near future, but I can't even wait for our first trip.

[14george]

Welcome to the fourm

[Retired Copper]

Welcome and happy camping.:camping:

[sourdough]

Welcome to the forum and congrats on the new rig!

A word of caution; you have the Ram 1500 which is a very capable truck when within its parameters. The trailer you are buying comes in at 9680gvw. That is a big trailer for that truck (been there, done that with the same truck). What is the information of the truck; crew cab? Which engine? What's the axle ratio? 2 or 4 wheel drive? What are the weight specs from the placards on the driver door? gawr front/rear, payload (carrying capacity). You need to know all those things to know where you are with towing ability (not what any of the sales people told you).

At the very least you need to have the dealer throw in a "quality" weight distribution hitch with 4 point sway control (suggest the Equalizer). If they won't spring for that....buy it. You will probably need to do some other things but that will be a must before you leave the lot.

[Chris P]

Welcome to the forum from New Jersey

[JRTJH]

Welcome to the forum. It sounds like you're a "novice RV'er" and about to jump in "over your head"....

You say that you just bought a RAM 1500, but don't indicate which model or even which year. You go on to say that you are buying (not yet delivered) a Hideout 29DFS. That trailer is a 34', 7500 pound (empty weight) trailer with a 9700 pound GVW and a 900+ pound tongue weight.

Depending on the model and equipment in your truck, your new truck could be "woefully under-rated" or "barely adequate" for a trailer that size.

If you haven't yet taken delivery of the Hideout, you might consider "slowing down a bit" and doing some research on towing capacities for your truck and "honest weights" for that trailer before you "bite off more than you can chew".... (figuratively speaking, of course)....

It's super easy to get caught up in the salesman's hype of "Your truck can tow anything on the lot" and "don't worry, RAM trucks are tough".... That trailer is "in the 3/4 ton, properly equipped category" and almost all half ton trucks will be "inadequate for such a heavy, long trailer"....

I'd urge you to step back, give the dealer a call, delay the delivery and make certain you understand what you're buying and how it relates to your current tow vehicle capacities...... Don't jump off the "deep end" before you know that you can swim !!!!!

[c_l_phillips72]

Welcome to the forum and congrats on the new rig!

A word of caution; you have the Ram 1500 which is a very capable truck when within its parameters. The trailer you are buying comes in at 9680gvw. That is a big trailer for that truck (been there, done that with the same truck). What is the information of the truck; crew cab? Which engine? What's the axle ratio? 2 or 4 wheel drive? What are the weight specs from the placards on the driver door? gawr front/rear, payload (carrying capacity). You need to know all those things to know where you are with towing ability (not what any of the sales people told you).

At the very least you need to have the dealer throw in a "quality" weight distribution hitch with 4 point sway control (suggest the Equalizer). If they won't spring for that....buy it. You will probably need to do some other things but that will be a must before you leave the lot.

Thanks for your response.

Here's a little more info...

The truck I bought is a 2019 RAM 1500 Crew Cab 4WD with a 3.21 gear ratio. I haven't looked at the sticker in the door jamb, but I found online that the max towing capacity was 11,470. I thought with the 7,162 dry weight that my truck should be able to handle it.

I live in Nebraska which is mostly flat and most of the time will be camping at state parks, etc here, but I've been warned that I'll likely be going 40 - 45 if I decided to take the camper to Colorado.

The dealer told me that I HAD to get the weight distributor. I'm not sure which one they sold me, but I know they charged ~$575.00 for it.

I'll take a pic of my placard tonight.

[c_l_phillips72]

Welcome to the forum. It sounds like you're a "novice RV'er" and about to jump in "over your head"....

You say that you just bought a RAM 1500, but don't indicate which model or even which year. You go on to say that you are buying (not yet delivered) a Hideout 29DFS. That trailer is a 34', 7500 pound (empty weight) trailer with a 9700 pound GVW and a 900+ pound tongue weight.

Depending on the model and equipment in your truck, your new truck could be "woefully under-rated" or "barely adequate" for a trailer that size.

If you haven't yet taken delivery of the Hideout, you might consider "slowing down a bit" and doing some research on towing capacities for your truck and "honest weights" for that trailer before you "bite off more than you can chew".... (figuratively speaking, of course)....

It's super easy to get caught up in the salesman's hype of "Your truck can tow anything on the lot" and "don't worry, RAM trucks are tough".... That trailer is "in the 3/4 ton, properly equipped category" and almost all half ton trucks will be "inadequate for such a heavy, long trailer"....

I'd urge you to step back, give the dealer a call, delay the delivery and make certain you understand what you're buying and how it relates to your current tow vehicle capacities...... Don't jump off the "deep end" before you know that you can swim !!!!!

Yes, this is my first RV. The towing capacity of my 2019 RAM 1500 Crew Cab 4WD 3.21 gear ratio is 11,470, so ~7,200 empty seemed ok.

Are you thinking that it won't? I'll mostly be using it at State parks not too far from me, but I would like to take it to Colorado once or twice a year too. I live in Nebraska.

[JRTJH]

Yes, this is my first RV. The towing capacity of my 2019 RAM 1500 Crew Cab 4WD 3.21 gear ratio is 11,470, so ~7,200 empty seemed ok.

Are you thinking that it won't? I'll mostly be using it at State parks not too far from me, but I would like to take it to Colorado once or twice a year too. I live in Nebraska.

Chances are that you're looking at the RAM 1500 brochure "maximum available capacity" and relating that to YOUR truck. That's not the way any of the manufacturers advertise their vehicles..... Typically, the "maximum allowable capacity" (as advertised) is for a properly equipped "single cab, 4x2, entry level model (minimal weight with no options) so they can "advertise greater numbers.... They ALL do it that way and it's more a "trick the consumer" than "tell the truth"....

The 2019 RAM towing guide https://www.ramtrucks.com/content/dam/fca-brands/na/ramtrucks/en_us/2019/ram-1500/capability/pdf/2019_DT_J1_Trailer_Tow_Official_Report_OFFICIAL_A_ 2018-1-31.pdf tells a different story.

The largest "max trailer weight I could find for a 4x4 with a 3.21 rear end was 8220. ALL of the 11,000+ trailer ratings are for the 3.92 axle ratio.

Please, before you "sign on the bottom line" do some more research. From what I can tell based on your truck (still don't know if it's a 5.7 HEMI or a 3.6 Pentastar V-6) your truck is probably not rated to tow a trailer that heavy and likely not rated to carry the weight that the tongue (plus hitch) will place on the receiver mounted to the rear of your truck.

ADDED: From the RAM towing guide for a RAM 1500 4X4 CREW ST 6'4" BOX:

The maximum trailer weight for the 3.6 with 3.21 axle ratio is 6,250 lbs
The maximum trailer weight for the 5.7 with 3.21 axle ratio is 8,020 lbs.

Neither is anywhere even close to the 11,300 pound rating for a 1500 that's advertised as "the maximum capacity".... READ between the lines or you'll probably be buying a new truck after your first camping trip !!!!!

[spade117]

Yes, this is my first RV. The towing capacity of my 2019 RAM 1500 Crew Cab 4WD 3.21 gear ratio is 11,470, so ~7,200 empty seemed ok.

Are you thinking that it won't? I'll mostly be using it at State parks not too far from me, but I would like to take it to Colorado once or twice a year too. I live in Nebraska.

Typically the only time a trailer is anywhere close to empty is the trip home from the dealer. For calculation purposes, using the GVW is the better option.

[5J's]

Welcome to the forum from SE Texas. As you've already discovered there are a lot of knowledgeable folks here. Don't take any of the comments personally. Mostly these folks are looking out for the well being of you, your son and those around you. The numbers game is always a tricky one and one that deserves your undivided attention. Please check your setup very carefully and be sure to err on the side of caution.

[busterbrown]

Welcome to the forum. I'd say congrats on the new trailer but I don't want to put the carriage before the horse. Previous comments are very valid and applicable to your truck and trailer combo. You will not be a "happy camper" based on the GVW of that trailer at nearly 9600 lbs. GVWRs over 8K lbs are honestly in 3/4 ton truck territory. The biggest problem with any 1/2 ton is its available payload. They just don't have enough. Load up the bed of 1/2 truck with some camping essentials (wood, toys, generator, tools, bikes, etc), apply 1200-1400 lbs of tongue weight, and add in a 100 lb WDH and you'll see right away that payload will be your achilles heel.

Anything related to "towing capacity" is sales hype that should be ignored. More important specs for a safe towing vehicle include payload capacity, GCVWR, axles ratings, and tire ratings. These numbers will be exceeded much quicker than the manufacturer's "towing capacity" limits.

Good luck and take it slow. Do your self a favor and exercise your due diligence prior to purchase and delivery. You'll save yourself a lot of time and money in the short run and you'll avoid being presented with the infamous mantel award of "been there done that".

[sourdough]

Chris (OP),

I KNOW this is a lot to drop on you with the purchase of the new truck and the plans you have been making. I understand and empathize. Some personal info from me:

My trailer is 10k gvw vs yours at almost 9700 lbs. - negligible. My tow weight my first couple of trips was 92-9300 lbs. I pulled with (originally) 2012 Ram 1500 crew cab, 4x4, 5.7, 3.55 ratio SLT trim & accessories. I was over payload by about 200 lbs. all things said and done and that was by leaving many things I wanted at home. The first trip was terrible; W TX winter storm, 45 mph winds, sand and 51 miles to the campground for the "maiden voyage" (flat ground). Truck struggled with the headwind, truck/trailer took me all over the road. From there took a couple more trips and found the truck would bounce you all over the place (tow package etc. - 1st trip to FL the sliding door to the bathroom was torn off the tracks, came loose, knocked out the end of the wooden cover over the track and ended up behind the edge of the slide....almost getting stuck when we opened the slide...among other things), sway could come pretty easily (using Equalizer 4 point) and the truck needed to rev quite a bit to hold speed in certain situations. Added air bags, heavier sway bar, heavier shocks....same story - but some improvement.

Got tired of that and went to a 2013 1500 CC Long Horn, 4x4, 5.7, 3.92 thinking I could deal with the rest if I could stop the revving. Wrong. The towing power improved but the weights did not appreciably. Air bags etc. again....always thinking "this 5.7 has got to be able to do this". Wrong.
Eventually my worries about being overweight, the truck's ability to handle the load/sway/braking and the knowledge/experience shared by the folks on this forum make me go to a 14 Ram 2500 (in my signature). After all my initial remarks about my original trucks being "just fine" and "no problems" it embarrasses me to say that everyone here was right. I refused, for a long time, to say the words "night and day" difference because I refuted anyone that said it would be that way....IT IS. Now, I'm in the market for a 1 ton. The 3/4 ton was the "tool" for the job. Swaying? Gone. Hopping, bouncing etc.? Gone. White knuckles? Gone. I can actually drive a trip with one hand and feel comfortable - you won't be able to do that.

I share this with you because I said in my first post - been there, done that....I have. It is an expensive mistake and cycle. I also know you are reading these things thinking A) these guys are full of it and know nothing or B) holy crap, what have I gotten into? Just wanting to let you know that those that are talking to you know of which they speak.

If I were in your shoes I would 1) determine ALL the weights on the placards on the door (post so we can help), 2) find out exactly what hitch the dealer is giving you. For that price it may not be the Equalizer but you need to know - All of them are NOT the same. 3) Delay any signing of documents for finalization of the deal and 4) try to find something suitable for you that your truck will handle....or 5) if you want to, get a bigger truck (I doubt this is something you want to pursue).

I know how exciting it is to think of all the adventures and new opportunities an RV can offer - they do. You want to do it properly and safely, especially with your son heading out with you. Breakdowns and misfortunes are NOT what you want. Those wonderful, exciting experiences are there and waiting - I can assure you that most all on the forum can relate things that would have not happened without the rv, just don't rush headlong into it without doing your "due diligence"....what I call "dotting the Is and crossing the Ts". Get the info and post back. You have a wonderful group of folks here that are willing, and want, to help you and make sure you get off to a good start.

[notanlines]

I'm sorry to say that I can't refute anything that was said so far. I actually cringed when I read the 3:21 gear comment. You made the mistake that is most common with newbies. You put the cart before the horse and bought your TV first. Do your best to cancel the RV sale and do a little more investigating. And please do follow up on the posting of your technical info from the door post. The members here don't stand to gain financially as does your RV salesperson. Let the members here guide you along a little and see if you don't benefit from it. And, by the way, welcome to the forum from sunny south Florida.

[c_l_phillips72]

All,

First I want to thank everyone for your comments. I must say that I was a little surprised at first about the comments, but that only shows how little research I did before jumping into buying a camper.

I thought about it for a couple of days, then bought one without doing much research.

For some weird reason, I’ll do all sorts of research on stuff AFTER I buy it, but don’t spend as much time as obviously necessary doing the research BEFORE I buy.

Anyway, you guys have shown me the light and I’m listening to you advice. I’ve spoken with the salesman and told him I’m just not comfortable with the weight of that camper. He’s going to look for alternatives.

I’ll get a picture from my door jam in the morning and post it here. I’d like to hear everyone’s thoughts on the biggest/heaviest camper that I could safely pull, and if there are brands that are much lighter than others that I could look into.

I really don’t NEED a 34’ camper for just me and my son, but it sure felt nice hanging out in it and didn’t feel cramped.

[c_l_phillips72]

Here are the pictures showing the ratings:

201822018320184

What dry weight and total weight trailer would be recommended?

[c_l_phillips72]

So I found a lot of specs today on my truck and a couple of campers. I put those in a spreadsheet to help determine what would be possible and what wouldn’t.


Based on what I think I might know, it looks like the Jayco 27BH would work.

Let me know what you guys think.

20196

[JRTJH]

Trailer "brand" is always going to be a "hotly contested opinion"... Some people "love" one brand and won't tolerate a different brand. It's all opinion, so leaving the "Jayco" out of the equation and just considering "any brand trailer" that weighs 6320 pounds empty with a cargo capacity of 1180 pounds will have a GVW (maximum weight) of 7500 pounds. That's simple math.

Now, the "reality of trailers" is that you will NEVER tow a trailer at its "empty weight". By the time you put a battery and fill the propane tanks, you're "over that weight" buy at least 100 pounds and when you add the weight of a Weight Distribution Hitch, you're probably 250 pounds over that "pie in the sky empty weight" (from the brochures)...

So, in reality, you need to consider two factors. First, you'll always tow heavier than the empty weight but by how much ???? It's always safest to consider your "worst case situation" which is the "heaviest the trailer can weigh". In this case, it's 7500 pounds, so if you calculate your spread sheet using the 7500 pounds, you'll always be "better than or equal to that figure" In other words, "you'll always be "on the safe side of the figures".... THAT'S IMPORTANT !!!!!

Second, ALL travel trailers tow best (most stable) with somewhere between 11-15% of the total weight on the tongue. In other words, with the trailer loaded so that 11-15% of the total trailer weight is on the ball of the hitch. Why the 4% range??? Some tow vehicle/trailer combinations tow best at 11, some won't tow well at 11 but tow better at 13 and some simply don't tow well until they get closer to the 15% tongue weight. Why? It depends on the position of the axles on the trailer, distance from those axles to the truck rear axle, the distance between the rear/front axles on the tow vehicle, the weight of cargo in the truck bed (tire stability, etc) as well as the road surface, aerodynamics of the trailer front (and back) surface and a host of other factors, most of which you can't calculate into the spread sheet but have to learn "AFTER YOU START TOWING" that specific trailer. In other words, after it's yours and you can't take it back...... SO CAUTION IS WARRANTIED IN YOUR SPREADSHEET !!!!!

Now, this is my OPINION, it's served me well for many years and I'll give it to you for free: ALWAYS ERR ON THE SIDE OF "WORST CASE". By doing that, you're planning for the most difficult situation and will be prepared for anything less than that. So, if you calculate for the heaviest trailer weight at the heaviest trailer tongue, no matter where your specific rig happens to fall (11, 12, 13, 14 or 15 percent) you'll know that your truck is capable of handling the trailer.... On the other hand, if you calculate at 11% only, what if your rig is unstable at 11% and you find you need to adjust your trailer load to achieve 14% before the trailer tows without sway? You'll be almost guaranteed that you're forcing yourself to tow overweight to achieve a stable platform. Always plan for the worst.

So, if that trailer is 6320 pounds (it doesn't matter) but the GVW (heaviest it'll ever be) is 7500 pounds, then 7500 is the spread sheet entry. Now, if the "advertised tongue weight is 630 pounds, you already know you'll NEVER tow at that weight, but somewhere between 11-15% of 7500 pounds, if you calculate your tongue weight at 15% of 7500 pounds, you KNOW you'll always be able to handle the weight. So for your spread sheet, figure the trailer at 7500 pounds with a tongue weight of 1125 pounds (15%) and then add the weight of your hitch appliance (about 100-150 pounds)

If you do the above for every trailer you're considering, you'll get "VALID" figures on which you can rely for a "real world weight" for each trailer.

In other words, use the trailer GVW and use 15% of that weight for the tongue weight, add your hitch and you'll have what the trailer adds to your truck....

Now, as for the truck, figure what you and all passengers weigh, add any cargo in the cab and in the bed, that's what your truck will weigh, Subtract that from the truck GVW and that's the maximum the trailer can add to the mix....

So, with a truck GVW of 7100 pounds, if your truck weighs 5433 pounds, the payload is 1667 (from your door sticker). Assuming you weigh 175 lbs and your son weighs 90 pounds, that's 265 pounds of passengers, If you have 135 pounds of cargo (tools and firewood) in the truck, that's 400 pounds. That leaves 1267 pounds remaining until your truck reaches the GVW.

With the above trailer, worst case is 1125 pounds of tongue weight PLUS the weight of the hitch. If we consider it at 150 pounds, then you're adding 1275 pounds to the remaining 1267 pounds of payload. In other words, worst case, you'll be about 8 pounds over your truck's GVW.

As you can see, it isn't as easy as "go pick out some trailer and if you like the color, you're good to go....

After you determine that you're within the truck GVW, trailer GVW, then you also need to add the truck and trailer GVW's together to determine if you're within the "rig GCWR" which is the combined weight of both when connected. The GCWR is just as important as either GVW and your payload and tongue weight.

I know it seems complicated and it's really easy to just give up rather than work through the fog and find your way to the other side..... Hang in there and keep trying to understand what the numbers mean.

I can assure you, it's not as complicated as it seems, once you figure it out, it pretty much is as easy as addition and subtraction and figuring 15% of the total trailer weight. The rest is pretty much "always the same process".....

Sheesh, this got long and complicated......

[Chris P]

Gotta say John you really did break it down Barney style though. Nicely done.

[sourdough]

Chris,

John has done a stellar job of breaking down how you want to assess your weights. It doesn't really take a spreadsheet. Some of those numbers are going to move around, but, you don't know if they will go up or down - that's why it is always the smart thing to do to use the gvw numbers. You do know that your load in the truck will keep getting bigger; 9 year old and stuff; then more stuff; bbq pit; bicycles; etc. - on and on. Trailer starts out with a few clothes for a couple of days, then you load for a week, then it's for an outing that includes warm/cold/rain etc. Now you have a closet(s) full of various clothing, shoes and boots. Same with cookware, utensils, TVs, ??? it IS endless.

Digest John's information, it's on the money. Ask any questions that come to mind. My (our) goal is to make sure you understand what you are getting into and don't get in over your head. Preferably you end up with an RV that is perfect that gives you and your son all the fun you hope to have - whether Keystone, Jayco, or?? Now, about that Jayco....

I don't have any dog in the hunt between Keystone and any other brand of trailer, but, I do have quite a bit of experience looking at the newer Jaycos (CW in Tally likes them) and tons of experience looking at Keystone products. Look at the details of the units you are considering; fit/finish/quality of countertops/strength of walls (do they push in when you push on them)/details of construction/type of self leveling if it has it/….the list is endless but you need to put your eyes and hands on them. I'm sure the Jayco would do the job for you just fine if that is what you choose but after having walked thru lots of them and others, they aren't what they used to be. As I've said many times; bang for the buck it is almost impossible to beat Keystone in my mind until you move into the upper end of RVs - and, the Keystone selection of floorplans is almost impossible to match. So, don't rush into that trailer selection either until you've put lots of thought into that. For us, after spending our first many years in trailers without a slide, which makes you feel like you live in a tunnel after a few days, we like slides - they open things up. You mentioned you didn't want to feel cramped so keep that in mind. Fire away with questions if you have them.

[c_l_phillips72]

So I've spent quite a bit of time this week trying to understand how to calculate whether or not a specific camper would work with my truck.

My Truck:
Curb weight - 5,260
Max Payload - 1,840
GVWR - 7,100
GCVR - 13,900

HI29DFS
Dry weight - 7,162
Max Payload - 2,518
GVWR 9,680
Hitch Weight - 920

So if I were to have my truck and camper at max payload, I would need a truck that could pull GCVR of 16,780 (7,100 + 9,680). Obviously, I'm 2,880 lbs short.

But if I reduced the payloads, would it work?

Payload in the truck:
1) Hitch weight - 920
2) Myself - 225
3) Son - 65
4) Misc - 225

So if I added the curb weight of the truck (5,260) to the dry weight of the camper (7,162) to the payload of the truck, I'd get 13,857 which is only 43 lbs less than my truck's GCVR. Obviously that won't work.

But I've been told that the dry weight of the camper includes the hitch weight, and I've also read that the hitch weight needs to be included as a part of the truck's payload. If both of those are true, then the hitch weight is included in the overall weight TWICE which doesn't make sense to me.

If I didn't need to also include the hitch weight when calculating my truck's payload, then I'd save 920 lbs which could be 920 lbs more payload in the camper for a total of 963.

For now, and the next couple of years, I would think 963 would be enough. After a couple of years, I'd trade the truck if I needed more payload.

Also, not sure if this matters or not, but I'm planning to buy a Equal-i-zer 4 Point Sway Control weight distribution hitch.

[sourdough]

The hitch weight IS NOT included in the weight of the trailer - someone told you wrong. You buy it after you buy the trailer, there are many, many types and brands which all weigh differently AND you take the hitch, put the shank in the receiver of the truck then attach whatever kind of weight distribution bars and sway it has. All of that (a lot of leveraged weight) hangs directly off the back of your truck and comes directly off the payload.

It is VERY unwise to try to use "dry" weights for any type of calculation. That trailer, or any other, never saw the "dry" weight except for the day it rolled off the end of the assembly line. Once you add a battery and propane it weighs more. You NEED to use the gvw numbers to be safe. Your tongue weight could be as much as 1452 lbs. (9680 x .15). To plan on a hitch of 920 is extremely unwise, plus it will assure you that you buy the wrong hitch for the truck which is dangerous. Also consider your son at 65 lbs. at 9; what will that be when he is 11? What kind of "stuff" is he going to want to take to have fun on those trips? Will you just leave all the good stuff at home and give him a smart phone to while away all those hours and make memories?

Lastly, trying to "skim by" overweight for a couple of years....you might get by with it, you might not. I can assure you that you don't want to be skidding broadside into oncoming interstate traffic with your son because that 920 lb. hitch of the back broke due to the 1400 lbs. of tongue weight sitting on it.

You are going to be dangerously close to being "dangerous" if you pursue your current direction.

[Carrottop]

Being that I am towing a 29ft trailer with an F-150 I can tell you that you are pushing and not by a small margin the capabilities of your truck. The GVR of my trailer is 7000lbs with 1980lbs of payload. That means that my dry weight is 5020lbs. I would not even look at a trailer that has a GVR in excess of 7000lbs for your truck. Just my opinion of course but I really think you need to reduce your trailer by at least 2000-2500lbs GVR. All else has already been said and is sound advice. While some on here are very conservative with their number and rightly so. Some push more to the limit which can be ok, but based on what you are saying that is beyond what most of us would consider safe conservative or not.

[c_l_phillips72]

The hitch weight IS NOT included in the weight of the trailer - someone told you wrong. You buy it after you buy the trailer, there are many, many types and brands which all weigh differently AND you take the hitch, put the shank in the receiver of the truck then attach whatever kind of weight distribution bars and sway it has. All of that (a lot of leveraged weight) hangs directly off the back of your truck and comes directly off the payload.

It is VERY unwise to try to use "dry" weights for any type of calculation. That trailer, or any other, never saw the "dry" weight except for the day it rolled off the end of the assembly line. Once you add a battery and propane it weighs more. You NEED to use the gvw numbers to be safe. Your tongue weight could be as much as 1452 lbs. (9680 x .15). To plan on a hitch of 920 is extremely unwise, plus it will assure you that you buy the wrong hitch for the truck which is dangerous. Also consider your son at 65 lbs. at 9; what will that be when he is 11? What kind of "stuff" is he going to want to take to have fun on those trips? Will you just leave all the good stuff at home and give him a smart phone to while away all those hours and make memories?

Lastly, trying to "skim by" overweight for a couple of years....you might get by with it, you might not. I can assure you that you don't want to be skidding broadside into oncoming interstate traffic with your son because that 920 lb. hitch of the back broke due to the 1400 lbs. of tongue weight sitting on it.

You are going to be dangerously close to being "dangerous" if you pursue your current direction.

I think there's a bit of misunderstanding about the hitch weight.

When I'm looking at campers online, they show the dry weight, the carrying capacity, the GVWR (dry + carrying capacity), and the hitch weight.

For example, for the hideout I initially bought (but still haven't taken delivery of), the following were provided:
Dry - 7,162
Carrying Capacity - 2,518
GVWR - 9,680
Hitch Weight - 920

THAT hitch weight is included in the 7,162, as the hitch weight is a percent of the overall weight.

When calculating my truck's payload, I can add 920 to the payload (and then subtract 920 from the dry weight), or just not add 920 to the payload (and keep the 920 in the dry weight). Either way, in the end, the numbers will be the same.

I think you're talking about the weight distribution hitch, and you're saying that's something completely different from the truck or camper, and therefore WOULD need to include its weight with the payload of the truck.

I'm planning to buy the Equal-i-zer 4 Point Sway Control weight distribution hitch. I've never lifted one so I don't know how heavy they are, but I'd guess maybe 100 lbs.

The reason I'm using the dry weight is because I don't think I'd ever use up all 2,518 lbs of carrying capacity of this trailer, and that's waaaaaay more capacity than other trailers that I'm considering. So I'm using the dry weight of the camper + the curb weight of my truck + the truck's payload (without the 920 lb hitch weight), and subtracting all of that from my truck's GCVWR of 13,900. The remainder is the carrying capacity of the camper, and in this case it would be something like 963.

If I wait to get water at the actual campground, and wait to get food once I'm at the camping location, it SEEMS like things would work. It seems that being 963 under my max would work, even for long trips to Colorado.

I definitely wouldn't be OVER the ratings and there's no way that I would ever do that, unless it was a VERY short drive to my camping spot.

[Carrottop]

By the sounds of your responses you are trying to convince us that what you are proposing will work. It won't, I am not trying to be harsh but you are trying to justify pulling an oversized trailer with an ill equipped truck by making statements like I wont put food or water in the camper. While I believe you would do this the first couple of trips that would not last as people arrive late or tired and the last thing they want to do is go grocery shopping. There are lots of very nicely equipped trailers in the 5000lbs dry weight category that your truck can handle and you could actually pack to enjoy the trip. My truck is equipped with every tow feature offered from Ford in 09 and has a GCVWR of more than 15000lbs that does not mean the truck can handle that with all other things factored in, I would not exceed a 7000lbs GVR on a trailer with my truck. Seems to me you have convinced yourself this will work and that is certainly your prerogative. I know it is hard to believe when you look at these big trucks and wonder why they cannot pull what we want them too, reality is manufacturers are great at making them look like they could pull a house but in reality they are not built for that unless specifically equipped with all of their tow and payload packages which will help. By the sounds of it and the reading off of your stickers your truck is not.

Good luck and I hope you find the trailer you are looking for!

John

[JRTJH]

I think there's a bit of misunderstanding about the hitch weight.
...
For example, for the hideout I initially bought (but still haven't taken delivery of), the following were provided:
Dry - 7,162
Carrying Capacity - 2,518
GVWR - 9,680
Hitch Weight - 920
....
I definitely wouldn't be OVER the ratings and there's no way that I would ever do that, unless it was a VERY short drive to my camping spot.

One misunderstanding that you have is that the hitch on the trailer will weigh 920 pounds. IT WILL NOT. It weighed 920 pounds when it left the factory. The dealership installed a battery (40) and put propane (60) in the tanks after it arrived at their lot. So, attempting to use the figure "920" in any calculations is a "pure pipe dream". You'll never see it.

As for not carrying food and filling the water tank after arrival. MOST dry camping campgrounds do not have water available and the most popular ones are 20, 30 or even 50 miles from the nearest grocery store. Then, there's that "unintended thing" called no dump station at the campground where there wasn't water. So, even if you "sneak it in by making trips to the gas station with 5 gallon jugs, you still have to "tow it out in the trailer tanks"....

You simply can't use an RV the way you're suggesting. It defeats the entire purpose of having a vehicle "to carry it in and carry it out".

You're going to find that the tongue weight of that trailer will be "well over 1100 pounds" in "any configuration, even lightly loaded" and you're going to have issues with staying below the truck's GVW, RAWR, payload and GCWR.

[spade117]

But I've been told that the dry weight of the camper includes the hitch weight, and I've also read that the hitch weight needs to be included as a part of the truck's payload. If both of those are true, then the hitch weight is included in the overall weight TWICE which doesn't make sense to me.

I kinda see where the confusion is here.

For calculating payload, yes, you add the trailer's tongue (hitch) weight to your loaded truck to determine if you are within limits.

For calculating GCVWR, you would add the truck weight (loaded, but unhooked, so no tongue weight) and the loaded trailer weight.

The tongue weight is not included twice.

If you search and read about how to weigh your setup at CAT scales, I think it will help you understand a little more.

[sourdough]

I think there's a bit of misunderstanding about the hitch weight.

When I'm looking at campers online, they show the dry weight, the carrying capacity, the GVWR (dry + carrying capacity), and the hitch weight.

For example, for the hideout I initially bought (but still haven't taken delivery of), the following were provided:
Dry - 7,162
Carrying Capacity - 2,518
GVWR - 9,680
Hitch Weight - 920

THAT hitch weight is included in the 7,162, as the hitch weight is a percent of the overall weight.

When calculating my truck's payload, I can add 920 to the payload (and then subtract 920 from the dry weight), or just not add 920 to the payload (and keep the 920 in the dry weight). Either way, in the end, the numbers will be the same.

I think you're talking about the weight distribution hitch, and you're saying that's something completely different from the truck or camper, and therefore WOULD need to include its weight with the payload of the truck.

I'm planning to buy the Equal-i-zer 4 Point Sway Control weight distribution hitch. I've never lifted one so I don't know how heavy they are, but I'd guess maybe 100 lbs.

The reason I'm using the dry weight is because I don't think I'd ever use up all 2,518 lbs of carrying capacity of this trailer, and that's waaaaaay more capacity than other trailers that I'm considering. So I'm using the dry weight of the camper + the curb weight of my truck + the truck's payload (without the 920 lb hitch weight), and subtracting all of that from my truck's GCVWR of 13,900. The remainder is the carrying capacity of the camper, and in this case it would be something like 963.

If I wait to get water at the actual campground, and wait to get food once I'm at the camping location, it SEEMS like things would work. It seems that being 963 under my max would work, even for long trips to Colorado.

I definitely wouldn't be OVER the ratings and there's no way that I would ever do that, unless it was a VERY short drive to my camping spot.

I did talk about the WDH (hitch) weight (which was the terminology being used) and you were talking about "tongue" weight - I got sidetracked.

The "tongue" weight will fall directly on the ball of the truck hitch and should be directly removed from the available payload of the truck. Because you do that does not increase the available payload in the RV by the same amount. You also need to deduct the weight of the hitch/bars; typically 100 lbs. give or take and anything else placed in, or added to, the truck.

In your scenario, you are so close to being over most, if not all, of your weight limits WITH THE TRAILER UNLOADED that I wouldn't even consider it. It is of course your call.

Edit: Spade117 may have hit upon the explanation of the confusion - I didn't see it before I posted.

[Carrottop]

Just to give you an example of why you cannot use the dry weight listed on the trailer here are some photos of first what Keystone lists the dry weight at 5047lbs second what the sticker on the side of the trailer states 5020lbs and thirdly what the CAT scale read taken right after delivery with nothing added 5300lbs. This is why we are saying you cannot use dry weights. 202202022120222

John

[c_l_phillips72]

I kinda see where the confusion is here.

For calculating payload, yes, you add the trailer's tongue (hitch) weight to your loaded truck to determine if you are within limits.

For calculating GCVWR, you would add the truck weight (loaded, but unhooked, so no tongue weight) and the loaded trailer weight.

The tongue weight is not included twice.

If you search and read about how to weigh your setup at CAT scales, I think it will help you understand a little more.



Thank you, that makes more sense.

As for the CAT scales, are those the weigh stations I see periodically off the interstate? I didn’t know personal vehicles could go there to be weighed. I was wondering where I could go to be weighed and make sure we were ok.

[c_l_phillips72]

I did talk about the WDH (hitch) weight (which was the terminology being used) and you were talking about "tongue" weight - I got sidetracked.

The "tongue" weight will fall directly on the ball of the truck hitch and should be directly removed from the available payload of the truck. Because you do that does not increase the available payload in the RV by the same amount. You also need to deduct the weight of the hitch/bars; typically 100 lbs. give or take and anything else placed in, or added to, the truck.

In your scenario, you are so close to being over most, if not all, of your weight limits WITH THE TRAILER UNLOADED that I wouldn't even consider it. It is of course your call.

Edit: Spade117 may have hit upon the explanation of the confusion - I didn't see it before I posted.


Sorry about using the incorrect term. I didn’t know I was referring to the tongue weight and not the hitch weight.

[c_l_phillips72]

Just to give you an example of why you cannot use the dry weight listed on the trailer here are some photos of first what Keystone lists the dry weight at 5047lbs second what the sticker on the side of the trailer states 5020lbs and thirdly what the CAT scale read taken right after delivery with nothing added 5300lbs. This is why we are saying you cannot use dry weights. 202202022120222

John



If my truck was able to support a camper’s full GVWR, I wouldn’t bother looking at the dry weight.

But since I know that my truck couldn’t handle a camper with a dry weight of 7,162 + it’s full carrying capacity of around 2,500, my goal was to determine how much the camper could carry before exceeding my vehicles max tow rating or it’s GCVWR.

In this case, it looks like the camper could carry around 963 lbs before hitting my max.

How much more do I need if I’m already under the max?

I’m looking at another camper that has a dry weight of 6,140 (so 1,060 lbs less than the Hideout), with a carrying capacity of 1,360, so a GVWR of 7,500 and a hitch/tongue weight between 614 (10% of dry) and 921 (15% of dry).

If I loaded the camper to it’s max weight before I travelled (which I would never do), I’d be under my trucks GCVWR by 530 lbs and under my truck’s GVWR by 306 lbs.

If I didn’t load anything into the camper, I’d be under my truck’s GCVWR by 1,870 lbs and under my truck’s GVWR by 306 lbs.

The reason why the GVWR is the same 306 lbs in both cases is because I’m using 15% of the camper’s dry weight in both cases as the tongue weight.

So I’d be using 86.5% of my truck’s GCVWR.

[JRTJH]

The scales you see along the side of the road are DOT "enforcement" scales and are not typically available for private (RV) use. In some states you can use them when the scales are not open and checking commercial truck weights, but they are not available for private use when operating.

The CAT scales being discussed are located at truck stops/refueling stations and are a "pay as you go" private scale. You essentially drive to the truck stop, go inside and discuss what you want to weigh with the attendant (weigh master), he will instruct you on how to park your truck/trailer on the scale, then he'll weigh it, you drive off and go inside to get the document (as shown in the photo) and pay for the service.

One, the DOT scale is a government enforcement facility and not open for private use. The other, the CAT scale is a private business, designed to weigh heavy equipment, trucks and RV's for a price. Usually it's $11 for the first weigh and $2 for each reweigh during the same 24 hour period.

[Gegrad]

I’m looking at another camper that has a dry weight of 6,140 (so 1,060 lbs less than the Hideout), with a carrying capacity of 1,360, so a GVWR of 7,500 and a hitch/tongue weight between 614 (10% of dry) and 921 (15% of dry).

If I loaded the camper to it’s max weight before I travelled (which I would never do), I’d be under my trucks GCVWR by 530 lbs and under my truck’s GVWR by 306 lbs.

If I didn’t load anything into the camper, I’d be under my truck’s GCVWR by 1,870 lbs and under my truck’s GVWR by 306 lbs.



That's the type of trailer you should be targeting in your search to be safe.

[sourdough]

If my truck was able to support a camper’s full GVWR, I wouldn’t bother looking at the dry weight.

But since I know that my truck couldn’t handle a camper with a dry weight of 7,162 + it’s full carrying capacity of around 2,500, my goal was to determine how much the camper could carry before exceeding my vehicles max tow rating or it’s GCVWR.

In this case, it looks like the camper could carry around 963 lbs before hitting my max.

How much more do I need if I’m already under the max?

I’m looking at another camper that has a dry weight of 6,140 (so 1,060 lbs less than the Hideout), with a carrying capacity of 1,360, so a GVWR of 7,500 and a hitch/tongue weight between 614 (10% of dry) and 921 (15% of dry).

If I loaded the camper to it’s max weight before I travelled (which I would never do), I’d be under my trucks GCVWR by 530 lbs and under my truck’s GVWR by 306 lbs.

If I didn’t load anything into the camper, I’d be under my truck’s GCVWR by 1,870 lbs and under my truck’s GVWR by 306 lbs.

The reason why the GVWR is the same 306 lbs in both cases is because I’m using 15% of the camper’s dry weight in both cases as the tongue weight.

So I’d be using 86.5% of my truck’s GCVWR.


I'm not sure how many times/ways it can be said. You HAVE to look at gvw; constantly looking, and calculating, at dry weights is meaningless and a waste of time. IMO GCVWR is the LAST thing I look at. What is your payload? I don't know that you've ever posted that. Thinking that you will run 300 lbs. under your gvwr and be safe is ludicrous. Saying you're going to go traveling with your young son and take "nothing" because you're going to run "dry" with the truck and trailer, is, well....out there. How do think you will stand on gawr? Have you looked?

I think Carrottop probably summed it up - you want to do this and are going to. We are a sounding board to say it's OK - it's not. I totally believe in trying to help anyone that doesn't understand what's going on with weights, but, it seems to me that you probably know and that's why you don't post the other weights despite repeated requests and focus on the most "liberal" numbers that might let you, in your mind, tow a big trailer. I'm not going to argue with you - pick what you want and put that young boy in there with you - the one that trusts "dad" to take care of him and make responsible decisions.

[c_l_phillips72]

I'm not sure how many times/ways it can be said. You HAVE to look at gvw; constantly looking, and calculating, at dry weights is meaningless and a waste of time. IMO GCVWR is the LAST thing I look at. What is your payload? I don't know that you've ever posted that. Thinking that you will run 300 lbs. under your gvwr and be safe is ludicrous. Saying you're going to go traveling with your young son and take "nothing" because you're going to run "dry" with the truck and trailer, is, well....out there. How do think you will stand on gawr? Have you looked?



I think Carrottop probably summed it up - you want to do this and are going to. We are a sounding board to say it's OK - it's not. I totally believe in trying to help anyone that doesn't understand what's going on with weights, but, it seems to me that you probably know and that's why you don't post the other weights despite repeated requests and focus on the most "liberal" numbers that might let you, in your mind, tow a big trailer. I'm not going to argue with you - pick what you want and put that young boy in there with you - the one that trusts "dad" to take care of him and make responsible decisions.



Wow, what a hate filled post.

I’ve been DOING MY ABSOLUTE BEST TRYING TO UNDERSTAND ALL OF THIS, but you have, on multiple occasions, called me out like I’m posting what I want to do and ignoring ALL advice.

I have NO IDEA why it seems that way to you, but that COULDN’T BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.

Some, most, or all (I’m not going to go back and look) have repeatedly said that I CAN NOT USE dry weight.

I disagree, because what I’m using it for is not for the same reason that you think I’m using it, and even if it was there would still be reasons why I could use it.

For example, if the dry weight of the camper was 2,000 lbs, with a carrying capacity of 800 trillion lbs, and a GVWR of 800,000,000,002,000 lbs.

I know that I would NEVER come ANYWHERE EVEN CLOSE to carrying that weight, so to me the GVWR is not applicable in that case. If ALL I DID WAS USE THE GVWR in that case, then I’d move along thinking my truck couldn’t pull that camper.

BUT THAT’S NOT TRUE! It’s only true if I were to actually load the camper to it’s full capacity.

If I added the DRY weight to my curb weight to the tongue weight to the truck’s payload and subtracted that from my truck’s GVWR, then I’d know how much weight I COULD put on the trailer without exceeding the max. It would be no where even close to 800,000,000,000,000 lbs.

Another example:
One camper has a carrying capacity of 2,500 lbs, and the second is 1,250. Both have the same dry weight. At first glance, the GVWR for the 2,500 capacity truck might exceed my truck’s ratings, but the one with 1,250 capacity didn’t exceed my truck’s ratings?

What if I only planned to use 1,250, or NONE of that when I travelled? Then BOTH of those campers are under the Max. Does that mean they’re the best choices? Maybe not. I’ve asked before how much I needed to be under Max to be safe, but no one answered.

Some have said it’s ridiculous to think I’ll never carry water and wait until I get to my camping spot, and wait to buy food. I actually think it’s ridiculous to fill up with water, buy a ton of food, and drive half way across the country wasting fuel to pull all of that. I can guarantee everyone that there would never be a time that I would do that, and I mean NEVER. Even if I had a truck that could pull 5x the weight of my camper, I still wouldn’t do it. I would get food and water where I end up, and I only go to KOA’s that have full hookups. To be too tired when I get there to not get food is ridiculous. If I was that tired, I’d just eat out at a fast food place, then go to the grocery store the next day, and I wouldn’t be pulling my camper to the grocery store. When I go camping, I don’t stay at the campground except to sleep. The rest of the time we are gone, out doing stuff, so driving into town for food or whatever is no big deal.

I pxxxxs me off that you’ve said that I’m just going to do what I want to. You guys have already talked me out of the only camper that I really liked, and I’m trying to find lower weight campers while trying to understand how all of the measurements work together and trying to find out why you guys keep telling me I’m out of my mind when the numbers showed that the camper I wanted did not exceed the max (when driving with an empty or near empty camper).

Even worse was your comment about me being irresponsible and possibly putting my child in danger. That would NEVER happen, and what an insulting thing to say to someone.

The only reason why I’m still here is because I’m still trying to learn, but thanks for being an *******.

[c_l_phillips72]

I'm not sure how many times/ways it can be said. You HAVE to look at gvw; constantly looking, and calculating, at dry weights is meaningless and a waste of time. IMO GCVWR is the LAST thing I look at. What is your payload? I don't know that you've ever posted that. Thinking that you will run 300 lbs. under your gvwr and be safe is ludicrous. Saying you're going to go traveling with your young son and take "nothing" because you're going to run "dry" with the truck and trailer, is, well....out there. How do think you will stand on gawr? Have you looked?



I think Carrottop probably summed it up - you want to do this and are going to. We are a sounding board to say it's OK - it's not. I totally believe in trying to help anyone that doesn't understand what's going on with weights, but, it seems to me that you probably know and that's why you don't post the other weights despite repeated requests and focus on the most "liberal" numbers that might let you, in your mind, tow a big trailer. I'm not going to argue with you - pick what you want and put that young boy in there with you - the one that trusts "dad" to take care of him and make responsible decisions.


Here are the numbers:

Payload capacity - 7,100 lbs (it’s on the sticker in the previously attached photo.

GAWR Rear 4,100, Front 3,900. Those were in the same photo. I don’t know how to calculate that with the camper.

Your comment “Thinking that you will run 300 lbs. under your gvwr and be safe is ludicrous.”. I’ve asked at least once what number I need to hit to be considered safe, and no one responded.

So no, I’ve provided the previously requested information but it seems that it wasn’t me who wasn’t responding back with requested information, and then bitching me out for assuming 300 under MAX SAFE towing ratings would be safe.

Furthermore, the absolute most that I could be under the GVWR is around 1,900 lbs, and that’s without me, my son, the tongue with or anything else inside the truck. When those are included, which they should be, I’m 306 lbs under my truck’s GVWR of 7,100. I’m not sure why you think that is so ludicrous or why just me thinking it was good is so ludicrous.

[c_l_phillips72]

The scales you see along the side of the road are DOT "enforcement" scales and are not typically available for private (RV) use. In some states you can use them when the scales are not open and checking commercial truck weights, but they are not available for private use when operating.



The CAT scales being discussed are located at truck stops/refueling stations and are a "pay as you go" private scale. You essentially drive to the truck stop, go inside and discuss what you want to weigh with the attendant (weigh master), he will instruct you on how to park your truck/trailer on the scale, then he'll weigh it, you drive off and go inside to get the document (as shown in the photo) and pay for the service.



One, the DOT scale is a government enforcement facility and not open for private use. The other, the CAT scale is a private business, designed to weigh heavy equipment, trucks and RV's for a price. Usually it's $11 for the first weigh and $2 for each reweigh during the same 24 hour period.



Thank you, that’s very helpful.

[sourdough]

The payload capacity of your truck is 1667 lbs. Read the placards. I don't see a payload capacity of 7100 lbs. on anything...and there won't be. You can keep the cussing and can it. I , along with others, are bending over backwards trying to explain stuff to you but you refuse to listen or try to understand - instead you say it should be OK and you don't understand why it wouldn't be. When I tell you that making the wrong decision holds you and your son's safety in the balance I'm cussed out. Lots of folks come on here, ask a few questions, either get the answer they want...or don't, then leave. If you choose to do that you need to know what kind of game you're playing.

You want a safe number? Load the truck to no more than 80% of its payload; 1333 lbs. cargo for the truck including the tongue weight, passengers, hitch, fuel, tools, groceries, bbq pit, bicycles, toys, firewood, hoses, etc. etc. etc. etc. That probably puts you in the realm of a 700 lb. tongue weight from gvw; that puts you in the realm of a trailer in the 5-6000 lb. gvw range.

What you "want" in a trailer is completely irrelevant since you have the truck. That choice completely drives what you can have in a trailer. It's not my fault or anyone else's on the forum - we didn't make that choice.

[busterbrown]

A lot of defensive conversation. But I'll add a quick comment anyways.

The scales will be very objective with all the numbers. There are no grey lines or "what if's". They will be black and white if the weights are honest and both TV and trailer are loaded and "ready to go camping". It's a good start to see if one has a safe and sound travel rig.

Secondly, I think most here will agree that a trailer's dry weight is meaningless when it comes to answering the ongoing questions of "can I tow this" or "is my TV up for the task". With that said, a packed and ready RV will easily add another 1,000 lbs of towable weight (weight that adds to both the dry tongue weight and dry trailer weight). My Bullet has a dry weight of 6,150 lbs. It has a GVWR of 7,600. After I first season, real world "ready to camp" weight was pretty close to that number. Since we upgraded our TV to a 2500 RAM, we now carry all the toys (inflatable kayaks, grill, extra propane, and tools) in the truck. I have the payload for it. Our prior TV ran out of payload quickly during that first season (1,550 lbs was printed on the placard).

Any further discussion on dry weights vs GVWR vs real weights is like:

:horse:

[spade117]

Some, most, or all (I’m not going to go back and look) have repeatedly said that I CAN NOT USE dry weight.

I disagree, because what I’m using it for is not for the same reason that you think I’m using it, and even if it was there would still be reasons why I could use it.

For example, if the dry weight of the camper was 2,000 lbs, with a carrying capacity of 800 trillion lbs, and a GVWR of 800,000,000,002,000 lbs.



I get what you are saying about not using the full GVW of the camper, and you may never reach that number, but you will never be at dry weight either. Remember that the battery and propane tanks are not included in the dry weight, and that is usually at least another 100 lbs, which is almost always added to the tongue weight as well since the placement of those items on travel trailers is typically on the front of the trailer.

[5J's]

I think there is just a misunderstanding between a new comer and some well experienced and seasoned folks. The scales will be your friend. The first step you need to do is see where you TV stands on weights. You need to load your truck for a camping trip. Throw in some fire wood, fishing poles and tackle, fill an ice chest with ice and drinks. Go to the local truck stop and top off all your fluids (fuel, washer fluid, etc...). Weigh your truck, you're looking for three weights here, total, front axle and rear axle. While this won't tell you exactly where you'll be it'll get you a good start. Now, you've said you'll be using the Equalizer 4 point hitch, If you already have that throw it on the truck prior to weighing, if not research the weight of that hitch. Add the weight of the hitch to both the total weight of your truck as well as the rear axle weight. The next thing you'll add is the approximate weight of your son, say 100lbs to the total weight from the previous number (his weight will also affect both front and rear axle weights but, there is no way to know exactly how much without actually having him in the truck when you weigh).

Total=scale weight+hitch weight+100

Rear=scale weight+hitch weight

Front=scale weight

These weights will tell you how much more weight (pay load) you can afford to put on your truck, i.e. tongue weight.

Total payload= GVWR-previous total-(GVWR*.1)

The GVWR*.1 will give you a "safety" margin.

Rear payload=GRAWR-previous rear weight

Front--this weight "shouldn't" increase unless you add weight to your truck forward the rear wheels.

The next thing you will do is to calculate the tongue weight of your trailer, only because you don't have one yet. To err on the side of caution always use GVWR for calculations.

Tongue weight=trailer GVWR*.15

If this weight is greater than either of the previously calculated payload numbers your set up should not be used.

To find a trailer that will work for you find the trailer tongue weight by the tongue weight calculation above and compare it to your payload calculations. For safetys sake please don't exceed the truck calculations above.

The final calculation that you want to do is verify the trucks GCVWR is not exceeded.

GCVW=truck GVWR+trailer GVWR

If this number is greater than the truck GCVWR then your set up shouldn't be used.

Please note that you should always calculate for the worst possible scenario and that is why you calculate with GVWR. Can you use curb weights? Yes, but, just know that if you have one extra bottle of drinking water or an extra rock from a gravel road hanging around then your calculations are void.

I hope this helps you understand a little better. I also want to say all these folks are good people and are well seasoned and want to help. They're only concerned about the safety of your family and theirs. Weights are a hot button issue and can be a convoluted topic.

The final thing I want to mention that doesn't get brought up is braking. One of the most important reasons to stay within your weights is stopability. Your vehicle was braking system was also designed around your weight capacities.

Good luck!

[Carrottop]

I am glad to hear you have lowered your expectation of a trailer weight wise down to the 6000lbs + range. In my opinion you are still swinging at the fences in that range. Again this is just my opinion

Rear axle ratio: 3:21 this is the weakest axle available for trailer towing offered by Ram. The middle of the road is the 3:55 and the best for towing would be the 3:92. Yours is equipped with the 3:21

Tires: By the placard you posted your truck is not equipped with LT tires. This is another reason your truck will underperform when pulling any kind of weight. Easy fix go trade those tires in for some good LT tires before you put too many miles on them.

Payload: 1667lbs. Lets assume you buy that trailer at 6000lbs dry weight here is the math.

6000lbs x 15% Tounge weight = 900lbs

Your weight = assume 180lbs
Your sons weight = assume 90lbs
bikes, camping stuff bbq = 250lbs (it does not take much to load 250lbs)
Weight distributing hitch = 101lbs
this totals = 1521lbs.

your truck can handle 1667 - 1521 = 146lbs from max. This is using dry weight which no matter what you say you cannot use as towing weight (even if you add an additional 1000lbs to the dry weight your so close to your max of your truck and that it is not good.

Again I am being very general here and I don't believe that the weights I typed above are realistic I am going of the posts you made on what you would carry.

Here are some questions for you.

What if your son wanted to bring a friend? you do not have the payload capacity for that.

What about when your son gets a little older and gets bigger or you meet a significant other? You do not have the capacity for that.

Did you add any accessories to your truck such as a cap or tonneau cover?

I am really not trying to be negative here but trying to help you make a decision that will not cost you money upgrading in the future and provide a safe and enjoyable experience for you and your family.

I am literally towing with a similar sized truck that has every towing and payload option offered by Ford in 2009 and when my wife and I shopped for trailers we quickly came to realize that we had to limit our trailer GVR to 7000 or so. That meant a dry weight of no more than 5000-5200lbs.

I am not going to sit here and chastise you should you choose to go heavier than that as it is your money, your responsibility and your safety.

We are more than happy to answer any questions you have to help you gain the knowledge and information to make the best decision for you your family and the general public that would be driving around you.

Best of Luck!

John

[hankpage]

I would like to make a suggestion. Make a father and son outing and have lunch at a truck stop. With full fuel tank and maybe some "stuff you may be taking camping, weigh the truck. Deduct that weight from the GVW on the door jamb sticker. This should get you close to what your true PAYLOAD is. Now deduct 100 lbs. for the hitch and 15% of what YOU feel the trailers weight will be. (10% may not be enough for a controlled towing experience.)

You may be okay with the smaller trailer, but I would be willing to bet the larger TT will put you well over payload and perhaps some other limits.

Waiting to weigh everything after you buy the trailer is like closing the barn door after the horse runs away. Municipal dumps and salvage yards have scales also but not much fun for the kid.

Good luck, enjoy your time with your son and travel safely, Hank

[Number 4]

I’m coming to this party a little late but would like to share my experience in hopes it will help. I think my first post on this forum was a similar a “Will this work?” question regarding a possible Ram 1500 Hemi for the used trailer I’d already purchased. The same guys giving you information helped me run the numbers to confirm that I was headed for trouble. I pulled that used trailer home on the flats with my 1999 Dodge Ram 1500 with its 5.9 litre engine and I-have-no-idea gear ratio. I’d used that truck (was purchased new with a “tow package”) for years to tow a smaller trailer and I hated the automatic tranny “hunting” for the right range while climbing hills. I also hated the constant braking (even with trailer brakes) and shifting to 2nd when coming down the mountain switchbacks. That’s why I thought a newer Ram 1500 Hemi would be the hot ticket. I’m sure it would have gone up hills just fine, but being overweight when combined with my “new” larger trailer created a whole new set of potential problems. In my case, since I already had the trailer, I ended up buying a used Ford F-250 which on the surface might seem to be overkill for my 6,800 lb GVWR trailer, but it's an absolute dream going up to 7,000 ft and coming back down. In your case the situation is reversed so you will do well to find the right trailer matched to your truck.
As for adding the weight of food or water please trust me, that approach will last for one or two trips. Depending on what camping facilities you plan to use, many campgrounds do not have potable water spigots ready to hook up your white fill hose. I hate hauling hundreds of pounds of H2O up hills but for me there’s no other option. We pack the trailer with food/drink the night before leaving and it’s so very sweet to back into a nice spot, unhitch, drop levelers, pull out the camp chairs and enjoy a cool one in the shade rather than heading off to whatever store you can find to pay higher-than-home prices for whatever they stock.
You have “hung in there” working this puzzler out with all kinds of weights and capacities and ratios. Make sure you take all the wisdom of this forum into account and you will find the right combination for safe, reliable and enjoyable travels. Have fun camping with your son, it’s been awesome over the years for me and my family.

[c_l_phillips72]

I am glad to hear you have lowered your expectation of a trailer weight wise down to the 6000lbs + range. In my opinion you are still swinging at the fences in that range. Again this is just my opinion

Rear axle ratio: 3:21 this is the weakest axle available for trailer towing offered by Ram. The middle of the road is the 3:55 and the best for towing would be the 3:92. Yours is equipped with the 3:21

Tires: By the placard you posted your truck is not equipped with LT tires. This is another reason your truck will underperform when pulling any kind of weight. Easy fix go trade those tires in for some good LT tires before you put too many miles on them.

Payload: 1667lbs. Lets assume you buy that trailer at 6000lbs dry weight here is the math.

6000lbs x 15% Tounge weight = 900lbs

Your weight = assume 180lbs
Your sons weight = assume 90lbs
bikes, camping stuff bbq = 250lbs (it does not take much to load 250lbs)
Weight distributing hitch = 101lbs
this totals = 1521lbs.

your truck can handle 1667 - 1521 = 146lbs from max. This is using dry weight which no matter what you say you cannot use as towing weight (even if you add an additional 1000lbs to the dry weight your so close to your max of your truck and that it is not good.

Again I am being very general here and I don't believe that the weights I typed above are realistic I am going of the posts you made on what you would carry.

Here are some questions for you.

What if your son wanted to bring a friend? you do not have the payload capacity for that.

What about when your son gets a little older and gets bigger or you meet a significant other? You do not have the capacity for that.

Did you add any accessories to your truck such as a cap or tonneau cover?

I am really not trying to be negative here but trying to help you make a decision that will not cost you money upgrading in the future and provide a safe and enjoyable experience for you and your family.

I am literally towing with a similar sized truck that has every towing and payload option offered by Ford in 2009 and when my wife and I shopped for trailers we quickly came to realize that we had to limit our trailer GVR to 7000 or so. That meant a dry weight of no more than 5000-5200lbs.

I am not going to sit here and chastise you should you choose to go heavier than that as it is your money, your responsibility and your safety.

We are more than happy to answer any questions you have to help you gain the knowledge and information to make the best decision for you your family and the general public that would be driving around you.

Best of Luck!

John



I get what you are saying about not using the full GVW of the camper, and you may never reach that number, but you will never be at dry weight either. Remember that the battery and propane tanks are not included in the dry weight, and that is usually at least another 100 lbs, which is almost always added to the tongue weight as well since the placement of those items on travel trailers is typically on the front of the trailer.



A lot of defensive conversation. But I'll add a quick comment anyways.



The scales will be very objective with all the numbers. There are no grey lines or "what if's". They will be black and white if the weights are honest and both TV and trailer are loaded and "ready to go camping". It's a good start to see if one has a safe and sound travel rig.



Secondly, I think most here will agree that a trailer's dry weight is meaningless when it comes to answering the ongoing questions of "can I tow this" or "is my TV up for the task". With that said, a packed and ready RV will easily add another 1,000 lbs of towable weight (weight that adds to both the dry tongue weight and dry trailer weight). My Bullet has a dry weight of 6,150 lbs. It has a GVWR of 7,600. After I first season, real world "ready to camp" weight was pretty close to that number. Since we upgraded our TV to a 2500 RAM, we now carry all the toys (inflatable kayaks, grill, extra propane, and tools) in the truck. I have the payload for it. Our prior TV ran out of payload quickly during that first season (1,550 lbs was printed on the placard).



Any further discussion on dry weights vs GVWR vs real weights is like:



:horse:



I think there is just a misunderstanding between a new comer and some well experienced and seasoned folks. The scales will be your friend. The first step you need to do is see where you TV stands on weights. You need to load your truck for a camping trip. Throw in some fire wood, fishing poles and tackle, fill an ice chest with ice and drinks. Go to the local truck stop and top off all your fluids (fuel, washer fluid, etc...). Weigh your truck, you're looking for three weights here, total, front axle and rear axle. While this won't tell you exactly where you'll be it'll get you a good start. Now, you've said you'll be using the Equalizer 4 point hitch, If you already have that throw it on the truck prior to weighing, if not research the weight of that hitch. Add the weight of the hitch to both the total weight of your truck as well as the rear axle weight. The next thing you'll add is the approximate weight of your son, say 100lbs to the total weight from the previous number (his weight will also affect both front and rear axle weights but, there is no way to know exactly how much without actually having him in the truck when you weigh).

Total=scale weight+hitch weight+100

Rear=scale weight+hitch weight

Front=scale weight

These weights will tell you how much more weight (pay load) you can afford to put on your truck, i.e. tongue weight.

Total payload= GVWR-previous total-(GVWR*.1)

The GVWR*.1 will give you a "safety" margin.

Rear payload=GRAWR-previous rear weight

Front--this weight "shouldn't" increase unless you add weight to your truck forward the rear wheels.

The next thing you will do is to calculate the tongue weight of your trailer, only because you don't have one yet. To err on the side of caution always use GVWR for calculations.

Tongue weight=trailer GVWR*.15

If this weight is greater than either of the previously calculated payload numbers your set up should not be used.

To find a trailer that will work for you find the trailer tongue weight by the tongue weight calculation above and compare it to your payload calculations. For safetys sake please don't exceed the truck calculations above.

The final calculation that you want to do is verify the trucks GCVWR is not exceeded.

GCVW=truck GVWR+trailer GVWR

If this number is greater than the truck GCVWR then your set up shouldn't be used.

Please note that you should always calculate for the worst possible scenario and that is why you calculate with GVWR. Can you use curb weights? Yes, but, just know that if you have one extra bottle of drinking water or an extra rock from a gravel road hanging around then your calculations are void.

I hope this helps you understand a little better. I also want to say all these folks are good people and are well seasoned and want to help. They're only concerned about the safety of your family and theirs. Weights are a hot button issue and can be a convoluted topic.

The final thing I want to mention that doesn't get brought up is braking. One of the most important reasons to stay within your weights is stopability. Your vehicle was braking system was also designed around your weight capacities.

Good luck!



I’m coming to this party a little late but would like to share my experience in hopes it will help. I think my first post on this forum was a similar a “Will this work?” question regarding a possible Ram 1500 Hemi for the used trailer I’d already purchased. The same guys giving you information helped me run the numbers to confirm that I was headed for trouble. I pulled that used trailer home on the flats with my 1999 Dodge Ram 1500 with its 5.9 litre engine and I-have-no-idea gear ratio. I’d used that truck (was purchased new with a “tow package”) for years to tow a smaller trailer and I hated the automatic tranny “hunting” for the right range while climbing hills. I also hated the constant braking (even with trailer brakes) and shifting to 2nd when coming down the mountain switchbacks. That’s why I thought a newer Ram 1500 Hemi would be the hot ticket. I’m sure it would have gone up hills just fine, but being overweight when combined with my “new” larger trailer created a whole new set of potential problems. In my case, since I already had the trailer, I ended up buying a used Ford F-250 which on the surface might seem to be overkill for my 6,800 lb GVWR trailer, but it's an absolute dream going up to 7,000 ft and coming back down. In your case the situation is reversed so you will do well to find the right trailer matched to your truck.
As for adding the weight of food or water please trust me, that approach will last for one or two trips. Depending on what camping facilities you plan to use, many campgrounds do not have potable water spigots ready to hook up your white fill hose. I hate hauling hundreds of pounds of H2O up hills but for me there’s no other option. We pack the trailer with food/drink the night before leaving and it’s so very sweet to back into a nice spot, unhitch, drop levelers, pull out the camp chairs and enjoy a cool one in the shade rather than heading off to whatever store you can find to pay higher-than-home prices for whatever they stock.
You have “hung in there” working this puzzler out with all kinds of weights and capacities and ratios. Make sure you take all the wisdom of this forum into account and you will find the right combination for safe, reliable and enjoyable travels. Have fun camping with your son, it’s been awesome over the years for me and my family.



I would like to make a suggestion. Make a father and son outing and have lunch at a truck stop. With full fuel tank and maybe some "stuff you may be taking camping, weigh the truck. Deduct that weight from the GVW on the door jamb sticker. This should get you close to what your true PAYLOAD is. Now deduct 100 lbs. for the hitch and 15% of what YOU feel the trailers weight will be. (10% may not be enough for a controlled towing experience.)

You may be okay with the smaller trailer, but I would be willing to bet the larger TT will put you well over payload and perhaps some other limits.

Waiting to weigh everything after you buy the trailer is like closing the barn door after the horse runs away. Municipal dumps and salvage yards have scales also but not much fun for the kid.

Good luck, enjoy your time with your son and travel safely, Hank



Thank you all for your comments. Even though some may think that I’m not heeding the advice from all of you, I am, and by me officially cancelling my purchase of the camper should go to prove that. I have looked at TONS of campers this week and maybe 20 before I agreed to buy the one I bought. Still through today, I haven’t found a camper I liked better, or even 75% as much as the Keystone Hideout HI29DFS. The combination of floor plan, size, price, accommodations, etc is incredible in that unit, so it’s been very difficult to let it go.

But I listened, and followed your suggestions.

Now, I’m not ever going to be a person who always plays as safe as possible because I like to push the limits.

However, due to your suggestions you’ve made me look a little harder for a camper that I LIKE and that is safe(ish).

Many of you had great recommendations on how to find my vehicles weight, etc and I will do that, but I’m also continuing to shop and continuing to make sure the way I’m calculating everything is CORRECT so I can end up with something safe(ish).

In the next post, I’ll post what I found today and would like someone to confirm my calculations are correct.

Thank you again for your comments and recommendations.

[JRTJH]

If you have your heart set on that trailer and feel that it's the ONLY one you've seen that meets your definition of acceptable. There is an alternative. Look for a 3/4 ton truck that is properly equipped to handle a trailer of that size. There's no reason to deprive yourself of something you feel is the "right" one for you, just upgrade the rest of the equipment to handle the trailer of choice. GM, Ford and RAM all have trucks that are capable of providing safe, efficient towing for that size trailer and depending on the dealer, you may find one that won't cost you a substantial amount to trade into.

[JRTJH]

I'd like to propose that the "next trailer selected" be discussed in the TOWING section of the forum. This thread, although in the New Member Introductions section has not been "about that topic". Let's close this one and continue the discussion in the TOWING section.

[c_l_phillips72]

If you have your heart set on that trailer and feel that it's the ONLY one you've seen that meets your definition of acceptable. There is an alternative. Look for a 3/4 ton truck that is properly equipped to handle a trailer of that size. There's no reason to deprive yourself of something you feel is the "right" one for you, just upgrade the rest of the equipment to handle the trailer of choice. GM, Ford and RAM all have trucks that are capable of providing safe, efficient towing for that size trailer and depending on the dealer, you may find one that won't cost you a substantial amount to trade into.



While I’d like to do that, I literally just bought this truck not even 2 months ago. I’d take a HUGE hit on depreciation, so my only choice now is to find a lighter camper that I like at least a little.