The wrong message at the Detroit Auto show

[busterbrown]

I find it funny that beyond the glimmer and shine on the HD 2500 trucks at the NAIAS, there are red flags that not many see. I suppose I was once one of them. The flash...the tech...the guy sitting in the driver's seat of the 2500 Denali talking about this being his next purchase to pull his 40' 5ver. He might as well get a GM gasser 1/2 ton and save $20K. The placards say it all.

Pics 1/2 - 1500 Chevy Silverado Z71 in LT trim.
Pics 3/4 - 2500 GMC Sierra in Denali trim.
Pic 5 - A very "capable" Toyota Tundra. Although, it did have wonderful 2nd row leg room.
19954
19955
19956
19957
19958

A side not...I'm not just picking on GM. It's similar across the different brands. RAM was kind enough to leave off the placards on all their new HD lines. Bummer.

[Wing-in-it]

huh...my ‘08 has a GWR of 11,000 lbs....

Mine is 2wd however. Annnnnnd I only paid 31k in 2010. Daggone 72k for a truck!

[busterbrown]

Daggone 72k for a truck!

Ford had a couple F250 and F350 Limited trim on display that weren't priced for the public. The show rep said MSRP would be around $80K. I guess they were too shy to publish that. :lol:

[mtofell]

A buddy of mine has a Ram 1500 with every option you can name and his payload is 1070#. We were out camping and another buddy with a Subaru Forester got curious and looked at his sticker - 950#. Ram buddy just grabbed another beer to help with the pain :)

[slow]

Our 2014 Honda Fit has a 850 lb payload. :whistling:

[busterbrown]

Our 2014 Honda Fit has a 850 lb payload. :whistling:

That's small ultralite territory! Looks like you got 2 tow vehicles in the family. :devil:

[Frank G]

I find it funny that beyond the glimmer and shine on the HD 2500 trucks at the NAIAS, there are red flags that not many see. I suppose I was once one of them. The flash...the tech...the guy sitting in the driver's seat of the 2500 Denali talking about this being his next purchase to pull his 40' 5ver. He might as well get a GM gasser 1/2 ton and save $20K. The placards say it all.

Pics 1/2 - 1500 Chevy Silverado Z71 in LT trim.
Pics 3/4 - 2500 GMC Sierra in Denali trim.
Pic 5 - A very "capable" Toyota Tundra. Although, it did have wonderful 2nd row leg room.
19954
19955
19956
19957
19958

A side not...I'm not just picking on GM. It's similar across the different brands. RAM was kind enough to leave off the placards on all their new HD lines. Bummer.

The placard on the 2500 complies with federal law, has nothing to do with reality or safety. If this 10,000 lb GVW law for 3/4 ton pick-up's did not exist the manufacture could tell us the true capabilities of the vehicle. I am not suggesting anyone disregard the sticker, I am saying it is not telling the truth.

[Javi]

My 2015 F350 CC has a payload of 6062, and I paid $38,000 out the door including TT&L with hitch, and spray in bedliner.. Had 26 miles on it...

[Gegrad]

I find it funny that beyond the glimmer and shine on the HD 2500 trucks at the NAIAS, there are red flags that not many see. I suppose I was once one of them. The flash...the tech...the guy sitting in the driver's seat of the 2500 Denali talking about this being his next purchase to pull his 40' 5ver. He might as well get a GM gasser 1/2 ton and save $20K. The placards say it all.

Pics 1/2 - 1500 Chevy Silverado Z71 in LT trim.
Pics 3/4 - 2500 GMC Sierra in Denali trim.
Pic 5 - A very "capable" Toyota Tundra. Although, it did have wonderful 2nd row leg room.
19954
19955
19956
19957
19958

A side not...I'm not just picking on GM. It's similar across the different brands. RAM was kind enough to leave off the placards on all their new HD lines. Bummer.

While those other truck #s are depressing, I am impressed with the 1832 lb rating on the 1/2 ton. That is a good number; If that truck were a 2WD model that payload would be over 2000 lbs. Chevy has made some improvements there in their 1/2 ton lineup.

[sourdough]

The placard on the 2500 complies with federal law, has nothing to do with reality or safety. If this 10,000 lb GVW law for 3/4 ton pick-up's did not exist the manufacture could tell us the true capabilities of the vehicle. I am not suggesting anyone disregard the sticker, I am saying it is not telling the truth.


Ahhh, but therein lies the rub (see red above). Plus, I'm not really one to believe that all the placards, warnings, "do not exceed"/"shall not exceed" etc. statements are all just "hyperbole" that the manufacturers put in the vehicles to "cover up" that they are so much more capable but we "just don't know". Sort of like the 1/2 tons with "heavy springs" that are now the equivalent of a 3/4 ton or more but they "just won't say it", the 3/4 tons that are really one tons but the 10k "law" won't "them tell us". The specs are on each vehicle - they are what they are. If a person wants something with a bigger "number"...they sell it and you just have to buy it. Sort of like believing you can fly by pasting some duck feathers on your arms...that's all well and good, and probably cool if you believe it, but, when you jump off that 2000' cliff to "fly away"....things ain't going to go so well......JMO

[JRTJH]

We haven't been to the Detroit Auto Show for several years. Every time I went I left depressed because I couldn't leave with two of everything.....

Hard to soar with the eagles when it's duck feathers glued to your arms....

On the other hand, this might not fly, but if you can figure out how to mount a hitch, well, maybe it'll tow "anything it doesn't shake apart".....

[rhagfo]

huh...my ‘08 has a GWR of 11,000 lbs....

Mine is 2wd however. Annnnnnd I only paid 31k in 2010. Daggone 72k for a truck!

First of all your 08, has a maximum listed GVWR of 10,000#, class 2 If it was a 3500 SRW might have a GVWR of 11,000#.

2015 Fuzion 325
2008 Chevrolet 2500HD Duramax
Chesterfield, VA.

Now your 5er has a GVWR of 16,500# that is a lot of 5er even for a 3500SRW. Hope your 2500 has something other than 17" wheels, I just hope you have enough tire to carry the load on your TV rear axle.

2015 Keystone Fuzion 325 Specifications
Technical Specifications:
Length 38'
Width 8' 6"
Height (in/mm) 13' 1"
Dry Weight 12,710#
Payload Capacity 3,790#
GVWR 16,500#
Hitch Weight Dry 2,915#

[Snoking]

First of all your 08, has a maximum listed GVWR of 10,000#, class 2 If it was a 3500 SRW might have a GVWR of 11,000#.

2015 Fuzion 325
2008 Chevrolet 2500HD Duramax
Chesterfield, VA.

Now your 5er has a GVWR of 16,500# that is a lot of 5er even for a 3500SRW. Hope your 2500 has something other than 17" wheels, I just hope you have enough tire to carry the load on your TV rear axle.

2015 Keystone Fuzion 325 Specifications
Technical Specifications:
Length 38'
Width 8' 6"
Height (in/mm) 13' 1"
Dry Weight 12,710#
Payload Capacity 3,790#
GVWR 16,500#
Hitch Weight Dry 2,915#

Russ, that caught my eye also. I wonder if he has hit a scale to see what his actual weights are at. Chris

[rhagfo]

Russ, that caught my eye also. I wonder if he has hit a scale to see what his actual weights are at. Chris

I wonder that also, just how many of those towing large heavy 5ers with 250/2500’s know where they stand with tires and axle ratings.
With our 2500 I scaled often, and knew while over GVWR, I was always within axle and tire ratings. Now at least for a while don’t need to worry about weights, but will be scaling on the next tow.

[ken56]

I bought my first truck back in '78, $9,980.00 bucks. Manual tranny and the only option was a radio. Trucks are the biggest profit margin vehicles the auto makers have. It is honestly mind boggling that they can reach 80,000 today. Are they nice? You bet, over the top nice. Do they have the guts to tow our trailers? That is the million dollar question. For the most part there is a truck that will do the job we need it to do, but at what price are we willing to pay. Seems to me there has to be ceiling on pricing at some point, just like with gas prices.

[Northofu1]

While looking at many GMC 2500HD's The gassers with double cab regular box all had 2900lbs payload, diesel would have 700 to 800 less. All the gassers had same options.

[rhagfo]

While looking at many GMC 2500HD's The gassers with double cab regular box all had 2900lbs payload, diesel would have 700 to 800 less. All the gassers had same options.
That is why you don't buy a diesel 2500, and go straight a 3500. It is also the catch 22 of the gas vs Diesel, gas will have a higher Payload, but less pulling power.
It is all in what works for you.

[C130JSuperHerc]

Nice job trolling the tow police!

I’ll just be over here with my airbags on my 2500 duramax minding my own business

[JRTJH]

Nice job trolling the tow police!

I’ll just be over here with my airbags on my 2500 duramax minding my own business

I wouldn't consider expressing a differing opinion as "trolling" if it were, then your post could also be considered "a differing opinion" and to some would be "trolling"....

Everyone has their opinion, all are welcome here and there are no restrictions on expressing them (as long as you follow the forum rules). However, attempts at "name calling" aren't appropriate. Only those with the approved forum WP badge can carry the title "tow police" or "weight police"..... :whistling:

[itat]

Nice job trolling the tow police!

I’ll just be over here with my airbags on my 2500 duramax minding my own business

Nice job .... 2nd post .... insulting others right away....

[C130JSuperHerc]

Nice job .... 2nd post .... insulting others right away....



Point taken. My apologies.
I’ve been beaten about the head and shoulders too many times for asking payload questions in other forums. Assumed this post was headed down that path anyways.

[chuckster57]

Point taken. My apologies.
I’ve been beaten about the head and shoulders too many times for asking payload questions in other forums. Assumed this post was headed down that path anyways.



These threads can and often do get a bit on the spirited side. That said, we will let this one go, and with time you too can earn the coveted weight police badge.

[C130JSuperHerc]

These threads can and often do get a bit on the spirited side. That said, we will let this one go, and with time you too can earn the coveted weight police badge.



I figure you are right...the next truck will be bigger!

Thank you for the pass

[ctbruce]

Dont you just wish you had one of these in your wallet to flash around? LOL 19965

[Snoking]

Dont you just wish you had one of these in your wallet to flash around? LOL 19965

Russ and I have been checking our mail boxes each day. Did you ship mine to my summer address up North? I have to call and have mail forwarded next week. What does the box look like, so I can pass that on to Mailzone?

[sandy43]

Javi, I take it, that was a gas, not diesel. Just curious.

[notanlines]

Sandy, I believe Javi's 350 to be a diesel. I think that's the reason it was a bargain. As I remember his only bell or whistle is he got tires and a steering wheel. (slight exaggeration)

[rhagfo]

Dont you just wish you had one of these in your wallet to flash around? LOL 19965

Russ and I have been checking our mail boxes each day. Did you ship mine to my summer address up North? I have to call and have mail forwarded next week. What does the box look like, so I can pass that on to Mailzone?

Chris, No way would they issue me one of those after the post below that I put out there. It's purpose was interpreted incorrectly by some members. It was meant to raise the question do those that exceed GVWR do it blindly, or do they pay attention to axle and tire ratings.


http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=323099#post323099

[ctbruce]

Chris, No way would they issue me one of those after the post below that I put out there. It's purpose was interpreted incorrectly by some members. It was meant to raise the question do those that exceed GVWR do it blindly, or do they pay attention to axle and tire ratings.





http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=323099#post323099Russ, I think they do it blindly. Too many examples on here of the salesman said, the advertising brochure said, and I thought for it to be anything else.

People believe what they want to hear, dont hear what they dont want to hear, get PO'd when they are told the truth, and live with the nagging feeling in the back of their heads trying to deny that they may be wrong. Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirts.

Its human nature.

[chuckster57]

Russ, I think they do it blindly. Too many examples on here of the salesman said, the advertising brochure said, and I thought for it to be anything else.

People believe what they want to hear, dont hear what they dont want to hear, get PO'd when they are told the truth, and live with the nagging feeling in the back of their heads trying to deny that they may be wrong. Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirts.

Its human nature.

Yup. I have been admonished by my old boss for answering questions at the walkthrough. I told him if the customer asks I will tell them the truth. Gave him the option of terminating my employment.....I’m still here, he’s gone.

[rhagfo]

Russ, I think they do it blindly. Too many examples on here of the salesman said, the advertising brochure said, and I thought for it to be anything else.

People believe what they want to hear, dont hear what they dont want to hear, get PO'd when they are told the truth, and live with the nagging feeling in the back of their heads trying to deny that they may be wrong. Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirts.

Its human nature.

Chris, I believe this is just the type of post you are referring to!
http://www.irv2.com/forums/f45/towing-question-ram-2500-a-427476.html

I have always felt there were two types of people that tow over GVWR, those that know and those that don't know or understand.

While I never liked being over weight I knew where I stood on other weights. It was always in the back of my mind getting in an accident, with all the hungry lawyers out there! I will still be running a dash Cam.

It is those that see that MAX tow rating is what they tow carry, and you can see that in the link I posted.

[Javi]

Sandy, I believe Javi's 350 to be a diesel. I think that's the reason it was a bargain. As I remember his only bell or whistle is he got tires and a steering wheel. (slight exaggeration)Diesel, power windows, locks, mirrors and hands free phone and audio controls on steering wheel. Also tilt steering wheel, and tinted glass and posi-trac.

You couldn't give me leather, air condition/heated butt or carpet in a truck.

It is 2wd though... I've always owned 4x4 but I counted up how many times I actually needed 4 wheel drive over the past 25 years and I went to 2wd.

[sandy43]

Javi, Wow, you got a great deal. These trucks today are way over-priced, my opinion.

I'll be in Waco 3/24-3/30 for the State Good Sams Rally at the Fairgrounds.

[JRTJH]

...
It is 2wd though... I've always owned 4x4 but I counted up how many times I actually needed 4 wheel drive over the past 25 years and I went to 2wd.

Javi,

You've still got 4 wheel drive, they're just all on the rear axle.... I've seen some 4x2 duallies go where 4x4 F350's had trouble keeping the back in in back..... Gumbo mud isn't easy to get through, even with a 4x4.

[rhagfo]

Diesel, power windows, locks, mirrors and hands free phone and audio controls on steering wheel. Also tilt steering wheel, and tinted glass and posi-trac.

You couldn't give me leather, air condition/heated butt or carpet in a truck.

It is 2wd though... I've always owned 4x4 but I counted up how many times I actually needed 4 wheel drive over the past 25 years and I went to 2wd.

Well we full time so the new Ram Laramie 3500 DRW is also our daily driver, so I like the Leather, heated/cooled seats, heated steering wheel, both DW and I like the power seats, and a great stereo. :D

[Javi]

Well we full time so the new Ram Laramie 3500 DRW is also our daily driver, so I like the Leather, heated/cooled seats, heated steering wheel, both DW and I like the power seats, and a great stereo. :DTo each their own, I would never miss a stereo or radio and if the DW doesn't turn it on... it wouldn't be missed

I drove a '77 CJ5 ragtop, over 150k miles between Christmas of "76 and April 27th 1983 when I was hit head on at 70 mph while driving it...

Never had the feeling of being uncomfortable in any vehicle and I used to average a 100k a year in a pickup while managing the fertilizer company. Between visiting the seven terminals and running the portable pipe reactor making ammonia polyphosphates it often seemed that I lived in the pickup.

[TYHLR]

FWIW.

Am not getting into the 2500 overload debate. To me it seems that the capacity of the truck is clearly published. To go beyond those capacities seems foolish to me.

I recently returned from a 1500 mi round trip with my camper. Traveling south of Savannah on I-95 i received flashing sign to pull into the weigh station.

I can only assume that because the rear axle weight of my dually with the camper is 7k, that is why i was directed to pass through. As I approached the scale house, the weight cop stuck his head out of the window and waved me through. Obviously with a dually equipped with 19.5 wheels and tires I was good to go with more capacity to spare.

I can only surmise that perhaps the real weight police are beginning to look at overloaded trucks pulling large/heavy 5th wheels (or at least south of Savannah)? I would not take the chance of being put out of service next to the interstate with my family in the truck, especially knowing from the start that my TV was overloaded, but that is just me.

[sourdough]

I think it will get interesting in the coming years...maybe sooner.

Had a guy pull in next to me last evening with a Road Warrior triple axle 5th wheel hitched to a Denali Duramax 2500. HUGE trailer (44'). Watched as he tried to navigate it into the space (straight pull in) and position it, then spent the next hour trying to get the trailer unhitched because the 5th wheel hitch was stuck to the pin of the trailer. He finally got it loose then came to knock on my door to inquire about TV connections. During the conversation I asked him the weight of the trailer...18-20k? We went to look at the sticker and it has a gvw of 20k on 3 7k axles....on a 3/4 ton? I asked if that wasn't a lot of weight for that truck and he said "naw, it pulls great". He had just sold his house 2 weeks ago and they bought this trailer new to live in...his first trailer. I will continue that conversation over the next several days.

Then, a moment ago a Chevy 2500 gas, lifted, pulled out with a very large Montana. Of course the rear sagged appreciably and that poor V8, with a large lift (and tires) and obviously not regeared, sounded like it might never reach 2nd gear as he tried to head out on the highway.:facepalm:

So if they start pulling folks in for being overweight I think there is probably a lot of "low hanging fruit" so to speak.:)

[SummitPond]

... I recently returned from a 1500 mi round trip with my camper. Traveling south of Savannah on I-95 i received flashing sign to pull into the weigh station. ...

George

How did you know the signal was for you? Do you have something in-cab?

Ken

[TYHLR]

Big bright flashing sign next to interstate lit up as I approached it saying "Enter weigh station". Thought there may be an 18 wheeler either next to me or behind me but none in sight.

[glendar10]

Ahhh, but therein lies the rub (see red above). Plus, I'm not really one to believe that all the placards, warnings, "do not exceed"/"shall not exceed" etc. statements are all just "hyperbole" that the manufacturers put in the vehicles to "cover up" that they are so much more capable but we "just don't know". Sort of like the 1/2 tons with "heavy springs" that are now the equivalent of a 3/4 ton or more but they "just won't say it", the 3/4 tons that are really one tons but the 10k "law" won't "them tell us". The specs are on each vehicle - they are what they are. If a person wants something with a bigger "number"...they sell it and you just have to buy it. Sort of like believing you can fly by pasting some duck feathers on your arms...that's all well and good, and probably cool if you believe it, but, when you jump off that 2000' cliff to "fly away"....things ain't going to go so well......JMO

I know I have one of them a F250 king ranch wit a 10000 gross but a payload of only 2025. This was setup to pull. 10400. Cougar by dealer joe Cotton who has i idea what he was doing and knew everything about pulling a trailer even told me that the pin weight is figured in the gross weight and does not count for payload.donttell me anything as I know he is stupid.

[Frank G]

FWIW.

Am not getting into the 2500 overload debate. To me it seems that the capacity of the truck is clearly published. To go beyond those capacities seems foolish to me.

I recently returned from a 1500 mi round trip with my camper. Traveling south of Savannah on I-95 i received flashing sign to pull into the weigh station.

I can only assume that because the rear axle weight of my dually with the camper is 7k, that is why i was directed to pass through. As I approached the scale house, the weight cop stuck his head out of the window and waved me through. Obviously with a dually equipped with 19.5 wheels and tires I was good to go with more capacity to spare.

I can only surmise that perhaps the real weight police are beginning to look at overloaded trucks pulling large/heavy 5th wheels (or at least south of Savannah)? I would not take the chance of being put out of service next to the interstate with my family in the truck, especially knowing from the start that my TV was overloaded, but that is just me.


You were pre weighed, at speed, and the camera could not see a DOT number on the side of your truck and you grossed over 10,000 LBS witch may put you in CDL territory and DOT requirements. At this point you were electronically directed into the scales, at this point the scale master saw you were a recreational vehicle and waived you through, he or she, the state, could care less. In all my travels up and down I-75 I've never seen a RV in the scale line. I still see a lot of Junk and miss matched vehicles on the highway. On one trip there was a 5thwheel on the side of the road and the large slide literally collapsed and was hanging out.

[John&Genny]

You couldn't give me leather, air condition/heated butt or carpet in a truck.

Although I don’t use them that often myself, the DW LOVES the bun warmers on our 2500HD Duramax. So much so, she’s insisting on getting them in our next car. As they say, if the DW is happy, EVERYONE is happy :)

[TYHLR]

You were pre weighed, at speed, and the camera could not see a DOT number on the side of your truck and you grossed over 10,000 LBS witch may put you in CDL territory and DOT requirements. At this point you were electronically directed into the scales, at this point the scale master saw you were a recreational vehicle and waived you through, he or she, the state, could care less. In all my travels up and down I-75 I've never seen a RV in the scale line. I still see a lot of Junk and miss matched vehicles on the highway. On one trip there was a 5thwheel on the side of the road and the large slide literally collapsed and was hanging out.

Frank, this is entirely possible as my trailer weight is way beyond the 10k requirement for CDL if it were not an RV.

Good call. Had not thought of it this way.

[Todd727]

Big bright flashing sign next to interstate lit up as I approached it saying "Enter weigh station". Thought there may be an 18 wheeler either next to me or behind me but none in sight.

I was finally tagged with one of those messages after a dozen trips over the years on I-75 in GA. Decided to ignore it. After that, I try not to be in the right lane when going through the sensors. :lol:

[notanlines]

Javi, I believe we are going to have to pull you, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century!
Do you realize pick-ups are available now without that handle that makes the window go down? And the dimmer switch isn't on the floor any more....:eek:

Crap! I believe this joke is on me; I'm back to missing my wing windows.

[rhagfo]

Diesel, power windows, locks, mirrors and hands free phone and audio controls on steering wheel. Also tilt steering wheel, and tinted glass and posi-trac.

You couldn't give me leather, air condition/heated butt or carpet in a truck.

It is 2wd though... I've always owned 4x4 but I counted up how many times I actually needed 4 wheel drive over the past 25 years and I went to 2wd.

Javi, I believe we are going to have to pull you, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century!
Do you realize pick-ups are available now without that handle that makes the window go down? And the dimmer switch isn't on the floor any more....:eek:

Crap! I believe this joke is on me; I'm back to missing my wing windows.

Well Javi isn't in the dark ages, has some of the nice features.