All Water Lines Frozen. Furnace Failed: Any Ideas?

[dpherod]

Hello - and sorry in advance for the long email. I want to make sure everyone understands what happens before they hopefully offer any advice. We own a 2018 Cougar 24SAWBE.

My wife and I started on what was supposed to be a 10 day camping trip to eastern Utah. The night before last after two nights of everything running perfectly, we ran out of propane. I thought tank #2 was full, but I goofed. I had a spare tank for my grill and hooked it up and the fridge and stove ran fine, but the furnace would not ignite. The fans would kick on to clear any unburned gas (normal operation), but then no ignition. The outside temp was about 20 degrees. So, I headed into Moab and filled both 30 gallon propane tanks, thinking that it was a pressure problem. Sure enough, as soon as I connected a new tank, the furnace fired up.

Everything worked for about 6 hours, then late yesterday afternoon, the outside temp dropped to about 15 and once again the furnace would not ignite. So, we bailed out and headed towards home. We stopped in Fruita, CO for the night. The furnace kicked on as soon as we arrived and I thought something (air bubble?) had been jostled free and everything was going to be fine. However, the furnace died sometime in the middle of the night. Same deal - the fans kick on, but no DSI ignition. Fridge and stove work fine.

Unfortunately, the outside temp dropped to 13. A small electric heater kept the inside above 40, but all pipes froze. We just dropped it off at our storage lot and the forecast is calling for 2 days above freezing towards the end of next week, but highs between now and then are going to be in the 20s with a couple of nights dropping below zero.

So - I'm in a mess here. I opened all drains and faucets, but with the lines already frozen, that's truly worthless at this point.

My suspicion is I'm just going to have to wait for a couple of months until the temps get above freezing and access damage. However, before I totally give up, I thought I'd check in and see if anyone has any ideas.

I'm still working and do not have any access to a heated garage, so driving to a warmer climate or finding someplace to park it inside to let it thaw out are sadly not options.

Darn. We won't be forgetting this trip anytime soon. I'll call our warranty people when they open up again next Weds to get the furnace fixed.

Thanks -

Dan

[sourdough]

I am sorry to hear of the problems...at this time of year.

You said you opened the drains and faucets; at what point did you do that? Hopefully you did that before you had a hard freeze. If so, the water has room to expand so should minimize damage. If you waited until everything was frozen hard there's no telling. Leave everything open to minimize any further damage (if there is any:)).

Letting the tanks run empty seems to be the catalyst that started this - I am assuming you have used this trailer in the winter before with no issues and used the furnace trying to run in cold, sub zero weather? If not, the possibilities grow.

When you say the furnace kicks on but no DSI ignition; do you hear the clicks as it tries to ignite? Do you hear the flame kick in then die? Mine did that and would quit trying after 3 attempts. Are you experiencing that? Also, when mine died (control board) I could reset it by 2 things; turning off the heater at the thermostat or removing the power at the control board; very irritating but it fired the furnace back up for a few cycles. In your case I'm not sure that is the problem.

[Steveo57]

I would try to warm up the trailer and defrost it as best as you can. Then winterize it as much as possible. Drain the tanks, water heater, etc. If you can run a few heaters at your storage yard for a while you should be able to get things thawed out and blown out with air at least. And pour some antifreeze in the drains.

[JRTJH]

I think you have several things going on at the same time. First, propane will only "boil" (convert from liquid to gas) when the tanks are somewhat warm. Once the temperature of the tank gets below about 20F, there's not enough surface area in the cylinder to "provide gas" to the furnace, even though the tank will "boil" enough propane to operate the stovetop burners.

Once the water lines freeze, there's not much you can do except drag it indoors or superheat the RV by turning on the furnace and letting it "cook" at the highest setting you can sustain for as long as you can keep it there. Open all the cupboard doors and if you have plumbing runs under bunks, etc, remove mattresses and open those areas so as much heat as possible can get to the plumbing runs.

Now, you say you opened all the faucets so if things thaw, you'll have water running, so NOW IS THE TIME TO TURN THE WATER PUMP OFF !!!!! Once things thaw, if the pump is turned on, you'll flood the trailer if the gray tanks fill or if the P traps are still frozen....

As for "boiling propane" you can help facilitate gassing to operate the furnace by warming the propane tanks. You can do that by putting a heating pad next to them, by putting a 75 watt drop light under the propane cover or by installing an adhesive or magnetic heating blanket under the propane rack.

Your best bet (which you say you don't have access to) is to get it indoors and open all the doors/windows and let it thaw. Maybe there's a car dealer that you know? or an oil change dealership/muffler shop/brake shop/tire shop that will let you pull it in at closing and leave it overnight. Hopefully by morning it'll be warmed enough that at least you can use the furnace to complete the job.

Winter camping is not easy and most will tell you that "modified camping" works best. Most will leave the trailer winterized, use bottled water, campground toilets/showers and essentially use the trailer as a "hardwall tent" in which to cook/sleep/eat without plumbing.

Let us know if you can find any place to park and/or warm the propane tanks and get the furnace operational.

Oh, and the flame in the refrigerator system is not big enough to boil the refrigerant in the absorption system when the temps fall below about 15 or 20F, so you might find that the refrigerator is "warm and everything is spoiled" when you open the door after warming the trailer.

[dpherod]

Thanks, sourdough. Sadly, I opened them after the lines had frozen. When we went to bed last night the furnace was running. Woke up about 4am pretty cold and realized what had happened. Yes, I agree that running the tanks dry was what started all this. Last year I ran a tank dry when it was 13 out, but was able to quickly switch to tank #2 and everything cranked up again fine. This time the system was without any gas for maybe two hours and for whatever reason, the spare smaller tank I had wouldn't run the furnace at all. I think the furnace requires a certain gas pressure to operate and the smaller tank (being cold itself) just couldn't provide enough.

As far as the DSI ignition, as far as I can tell, I hear one click and then nothing. I also expect to hear more. It tries to light on its own about every hour, but has the same cycle of turning on the blower to clear any unburned gas, then one click, then stops right away.

I'm kind of thinking it's a control board problem too. Perhaps it just got too cold, although our 2018 came with the 'Polar Package' that is supposed to be good down to zero.

Darn!!!

[dpherod]

Thanks, Steveo57. We are going to go to the storage lot tomorrow and try that.

[dpherod]

Thanks JRTJH! I appreciate the info about the propane. It reminds me of a time I had grand plans to grill a steak but my propane grill wouldn't light...so I cleaned the propane cylinder as best I could and tossed it in the hot tub for awhile. My wife of course thought I was out of my mind...but the steak turned out great! :)

I like the suggestion about leaving the trailer winterized when we camp in the winter. With me still working, winter camping is one more way for us to get out.

I'll also check with the oil change place we use. Maybe they'll let me pull it in for the night. Great suggestion! Thanks!

[notanlines]

I don't have anything to add concerning the thawing process and what might be frozen, but I am betting that your furnace is fine and your tanks just "froze" as described by John. We use a heating blanket around one 40 pound tank to run our generator. That solved our problem. Keep us up on your progress.

[ctbruce]

Do you have electricity available where you store? Getting an electric heater going inside and a couple of heat lamps outside will help.

[dpherod]

notanlines - I think you're right. Thanks for the suggestion about the heating blanket. It's going to get into the 30's later this week and my guess is the heater will fire right up.

[dpherod]

Thanks crbruce - I'm going to go there Friday when it's supposed to be in the 30's. I'll take a couple of heat lamps with me. There is one outlet about 100' away, but I have enough extension cords to reach.

[CaptnJohn]

Thanks crbruce - I'm going to go there Friday when it's supposed to be in the 30's. I'll take a couple of heat lamps with me. There is one outlet about 100' away, but I have enough extension cords to reach.

Or use a generator to shorten cord. A 60 or even 40W bulb in the basement should keep things from freezing and/or assist in thawing. A Big Buddy heater inside will heat the interior up and no electric or battery needed.

[BadmanRick]

If you go on Amazon they sell propane tank heaters. These wrap around the tank and plug into a/c. This will eliminate your cold propane tank problem. The ones I saw were about $99.00each. If you are going to constantly camp in frozen weather I would have your water pipes heated also. Amazon also offere water pipe heating cables.
A little initial expense but a lot less agrivation in the future. Also get a heated outside water hose so you’ll have running water when it gets very cold.(also on AMAZON)
Hope this helps.

[WJQ]

It is amazing how smart we get after we make a mistake. I have a brand new 2018 Cougar 24 probably identical to dpherod. It also has the polar package. We bought it late in the season to save a few $$$ and have only stored it since while I do cabinetry modifications. I am learning from your problems and others on this blog! Thanks to all.

I will certainly stick to the "modified" winter camping even though my sticker says "Polar Package". It looks like things might be safe if I have both propane and when temps are not expected to get below 30. In my old 2000 Bounder, I just moved to someplace with 120 V power and used three 1500 watt heaters to keep the basement and the living space toasty. It had "low point drains" that didn't really drain the water, so it froze up the first year I had it.

Does anyone have experience about the low point drain of the Cougar?

One bit of good news, while PEX piping will freeze, it will not crack as did older PVC piping. However, the PEX fittings - brass or plastic will break if the ice compresses them. In my opinion, the best approach if something similar happens, dump all water as soon as you can (Saving some in a jug for coffee.). I also plan to move to a warmer spot as soon as possible!

The other thing I have learned, having lived in Idaho and Utah since 1973, when it starts getting below 30 F (try labor day in West Yellowstone), get to an RV spot with power and some brandy and watch football!

Good luck on your repairs.

Lastly, I hope that JRTJH and some others may know how to remove the "cover" that is riveted to the underside of the frame of the Cougar. The cover has probably been used elsewhere but this is my first exposure. Dpherod will need to know that if he has any busted fittings and I need it as I am going to do some major electrical mods to incorporate solar power and an inverter that will need access from the batteries to the control panel in the rear.

Thanks to all.

[JRTJH]

If you go on Amazon they sell propane tank heaters. These wrap around the tank and plug into a/c. This will eliminate your cold propane tank problem. The ones I saw were about $99.00each. If you are going to constantly camp in frozen weather I would have your water pipes heated also. Amazon also offere water pipe heating cables.
A little initial expense but a lot less agrivation in the future. Also get a heated outside water hose so you’ll have running water when it gets very cold.(also on AMAZON)
Hope this helps.

No need to spend $99 on a propane tank heater. You can install one like this: https://www.amazon.com/Silicone-Veggie-Vegetable-heater-Adhesive/dp/B00TBITUDK/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1546809660&sr=8-4&keywords=adhesive+tank+heater on the BOTTOM of the propane tank rack. DO NOT INSTALL IT ON THE TOP OF THE RACK because the rings on the bottom of the propane tanks will damage/cut the pad. Heat rises, and 100 watts will keep the propane "gassing" down to 0F or maybe below. Just put the pad on the bottom of the steel propane rack, run the wiring/plug to a convenient place and when the forecast is below 30F, just plug in the heater pad using an extension cord to the 15 amp plug on the campground power pole. It won't affect your "inside power consumption" and it will keep the propane flowing.

Total cost: about $15-25.

[JRTJH]

WJQ,

The bottom belly cover is corrugated plastic (coro-plast) and is screwed (or power driven) to the bottom of the frame rails. If it is screwed to the frame rails, you can use a battery driven impact tool with appropriately sized socket to remove as many of the "self drilling screws" as needed. If it was installed using "power driven steel piercing nails" then you'll need to use a crowbar to back them out to remove them. Then, with either type, I'd recommend using stainless steel self drilling screws and washers to reinstall. You can use the same holes, and the stainless hardware will prevent rust and be easier to remove 'next time"....

[CrazyCain]

I think you have several things going on at the same time. First, propane will only "boil" (convert from liquid to gas) when the tanks are somewhat warm. Once the temperature of the tank gets below about 20F, there's not enough surface area in the cylinder to "provide gas" to the furnace, even though the tank will "boil" enough propane to operate the stovetop burners.

Once the water lines freeze, there's not much you can do except drag it indoors or superheat the RV by turning on the furnace and letting it "cook" at the highest setting you can sustain for as long as you can keep it there. Open all the cupboard doors and if you have plumbing runs under bunks, etc, remove mattresses and open those areas so as much heat as possible can get to the plumbing runs.

Now, you say you opened all the faucets so if things thaw, you'll have water running, so NOW IS THE TIME TO TURN THE WATER PUMP OFF !!!!! Once things thaw, if the pump is turned on, you'll flood the trailer if the gray tanks fill or if the P traps are still frozen....

As for "boiling propane" you can help facilitate gassing to operate the furnace by warming the propane tanks. You can do that by putting a heating pad next to them, by putting a 75 watt drop light under the propane cover or by installing an adhesive or magnetic heating blanket under the propane rack.

Your best bet (which you say you don't have access to) is to get it indoors and open all the doors/windows and let it thaw. Maybe there's a car dealer that you know? or an oil change dealership/muffler shop/brake shop/tire shop that will let you pull it in at closing and leave it overnight. Hopefully by morning it'll be warmed enough that at least you can use the furnace to complete the job.

Winter camping is not easy and most will tell you that "modified camping" works best. Most will leave the trailer winterized, use bottled water, campground toilets/showers and essentially use the trailer as a "hardwall tent" in which to cook/sleep/eat without plumbing.

Let us know if you can find any place to park and/or warm the propane tanks and get the furnace operational.

Oh, and the flame in the refrigerator system is not big enough to boil the refrigerant in the absorption system when the temps fall below about 15 or 20F, so you might find that the refrigerator is "warm and everything is spoiled" when you open the door after warming the trailer.

That be us in East Tawas every winter, heading up this coming weekend.

:cool:
:popcorn:

[JRTJH]

Tom,

Enjoy this weekend. We're supposed to get some "significant snow and high winds" tonight/tomorrow with freezing rain. After that, it's supposed to "warm up considerably" with partly sunny days the rest of the week. While it's not nearly as bad as last year, I'll still leave the winter camping to you and I'll sit in the back room, watching deer and squirrels at the bird feeders. Here's the view of and from my recliner in our "snow globe room"....

[flybouy]

Thanks crbruce - I'm going to go there Friday when it's supposed to be in the 30's. I'll take a couple of heat lamps with me. There is one outlet about 100' away, but I have enough extension cords to reach.

With a 100' run don't use a #14 awg extension cord. The voltage drop will likely cause it to overheat. Buy #12 awg extension cord to be safe.

[CrazyCain]

Tom,

Enjoy this weekend. We're supposed to get some "significant snow and high winds" tonight/tomorrow with freezing rain. After that, it's supposed to "warm up considerably" with partly sunny days the rest of the week. While it's not nearly as bad as last year, I'll still leave the winter camping to you and I'll sit in the back room, watching deer and squirrels at the bird feeders. Here's the view of and from my recliner in our "snow globe room"....

MAn, that is a great room and view!!!! Gotta have that living up there. Oh, and i love the Keystome sticker on the boc in the bottom corner!


:cool:

[JRTJH]

MAn, that is a great room and view!!!! Gotta have that living up there. Oh, and i love the Keystome sticker on the boc in the bottom corner!


:cool:

We call it our "snow globe room" rather than shaking it and watching the snow swirl inside, we stay inside and watch the snow swirl outside..... Honestly, it's a great place to sit and absorb "pineal gland UV and light" sure helps prevent cabin fever when we're stuck inside.

That sticker is on the side of a small "wine cooler". It's on a magnetic sheet and plans are to put it on the tail gate of the truck, but we haven't got that far yet....

[dpherod]

Thanks to everyone for the ongoing info regarding keeping the propane warm enough and about removing the underbelly cover. The situation now is as I never winterized anything because it froze when we had it in Utah and to date (Jan 10, '19), it has not warmed up enough for anything to thaw.

I'm going to take some time off in early June with my only task to repair the water damage. If I'm lucky it will be limited to my Pex lines. If I'm really unlucky, it will extend to my freshwater tank. I was able to dump black & gray on my way out of Dead Horse State Park in Utah, but everything else was frozen and still is.

Thanks again for all the suggestions! Dan