Opinions on Factory Defects

[worjef]

I have a general question and concern. Long story short I purchased my camper in Nov of last year. Stored it under cover but during one of our trips noticed the window in the bedroom was leaking while it was raining. Took it in for repair (under warranty) and over the past 2 months the repair shop has been sent 3 windows and it's now determined the cutout for the window was incorrect. Keystone wants me to choose between having the repair shop put a rubber seal in around the window to make it fit and would cause the window to stick out about an inch or to install a frameless window that will not match the rest of the windows in my camper.

I'm curious if other have experienced similar issues and how they dealt with it. I personally don't feel that either is a proper fix as I bought this camper new and I shouldn't have a "workaround" for an issue that should have never left the factory. I asked the repair shop if the frameless window was noticeable different and they said you would be able to tell. If the window didn't match or stuck out an inch at the time of purchase the purchase would not have been made.

[66joej]

If Keystone wants to change one have them change all windows to frameless. JMO

[hornet28]

I would ask if a slightly larger window was available. Another option which probably wouldn't work would be to insist on a different trailer. I think the larger window option has a better chance of succeeding. I wouldn't be willing to settle for what they are offering so far

[wiredgeorge]

Just curious, what would you have the "repair shop" do? What do you consider the reasonable remedy? Just curious.

[meaz93*]

Sounds about right....
Keystone put 2 different side by side refrigerators in my Outback.
I caught it during the walk through....here we are 5 months down the line and my dealer says Keystone won't replace the 17` refer unit to match the 18`?....handles are a slight different color & style.
I was told Keystone pushed out over 200 units with different year side by side refrigerators. :rolleyes:
It's not that big of a deal, but still....seriously?!
So yea, I guess Keystone is fine with piecing a few components together....aka window, refrigerator; seems whatever they have leftover laying around in the ole warehouse, etc...
Again,... I guess just let them do the warranted >err....repair.19309

[Alpine]

I would ask if a slightly larger window was available. Another option which probably wouldn't work would be to insist on a different trailer. I think the larger window option has a better chance of succeeding. I wouldn't be willing to settle for what they are offering so far

Well now... I kinda like this idea of the larger window (obviously if
there is room for enlargement)!

[hornet28]

I was thinking that being it's a bedroom window it's not overly large to begin with

[Dave W]

A 5-6 buck tube of outdoor window and door clear silicone will usually handle this kind of problem and what the folks on another Keystone branded 5ers site have used with good resulys. This is what I'll be using on one of our windows that just recently showed a minor leak. You can also use some butyl tape(12 bucks), found at any RV store. The stuff that I bought on AMAZON for our last 5er was advertised as butyl but wasn't.

[travelin texans]

Please don't start gobbing silicone every where!! There are better sealants for the job & hopefully a better solution.
Some pictures would help if you could post them.
Maybe find a dealership that has technicians that can FIX it rather than cover it up.

[ken56]

Just off the cuff here but is there any way you can arrange with Keystone to get the unit back to them for a factory fix and install a like kind larger window?

[worjef]

A 5-6 buck tube of outdoor window and door clear silicone will usually handle this kind of problem and what the folks on another Keystone branded 5ers site have used with good resulys. This is what I'll be using on one of our windows that just recently showed a minor leak. You can also use some butyl tape(12 bucks), found at any RV store. The stuff that I bought on AMAZON for our last 5er was advertised as butyl but wasn't.

As a temporary fix before I could get my camper in for repair I tried to silicone around the window to prevent water from coming in, but it didn't stop it. The cut out in the fiberglass is bigger than than the window. This is a brand new camper with a factory defect. I feel that silicone & tape is a "workaround" not a fix.

[JRTJH]

I find some "issues" with the OP's problem. First, the trailer sidewalls are "vacuum bonded and built in a jig" and all the window openings are "pattern cut" while in the jig, which means all of the sidewalls for that particular model are "built on the same jig and should be the same. My concern is that if his window opening is the wrong size, there are probably more that have the same condition.

Certainly, "gobbing a bunch of silicone" around a leaking window that's the wrong size for the opening is not the answer. Building a "shim" to cause the window to "butt out about an inch" is (at least for me) also unacceptable. Additionally, installing one "frameless window" that doesn't match the other windows is also not an acceptable answer.

What "should" Keystone do? Repair the window to meet the owner's expectations. Anything less is not going to solve the problem.

So, the answer is really "up to the owner and Keystone" and depends on what is acceptable to both.

Kinrow windows can be custom built (at extra expense) to fit almost any size opening. Sometimes that is done by changing the extrusion sizes, sometimes by changing the glass sizes, sometimes it requires both.

If it were my trailer, I'd expect Keystone to find a window that fits the opening and matches the other windows on the trailer. If that can't be done, then I'd expect a changeout of all windows, so they all match, or a special order window in the correct size.

Back to the first paragraph, I wonder how many other owners are facing the same problem and either don't know it yet, aren't aware there are more than just their singular issue or whether Keystone has found an acceptable repair for others with the same problem.... All questions with answers that are going to be hidden or not made available......

[Dave W]

As a temporary fix before I could get my camper in for repair I tried to silicone around the window to prevent water from coming in, but it didn't stop it. The cut out in the fiberglass is bigger than than the window. This is a brand new camper with a factory defect. I feel that silicone & tape is a "workaround" not a fix.

Just slobbering silicone around the edges will make a horrible mess but by removng a half dozen screws and pulling the window out then applying a silicone bead instead of the less then satisfactory closed cell foam will work. Butyl tape will also work.

But with that said, it is your RV and you have to do what's best for you --- but for my needs, pulling it to a dealer and leaving it there over and over for weeks just does not work for me when I want to use it. And it's even worse if it's being financed and you can't use it.

Good luck with Keystone and them having a vendor make one special sized window

[bbells]

I ran into the same problem with a trailer of a different manufacturer. I ended up taking all the windows off and found another that had the same problem. Since the mfr would not repair the defect I put butyl on all the windows and resealed them in the middle of the hole. That fixed it. If you are still on warranty the dealer should check every window on your trailer. FYI: The person who cut the hole for the one window probably cut the holes for the other ones, too.

[apachewolf]

Well---Well, here we go again. In 2015 we bought a brand new Keystone, Laredo 240 mk. On the very first trip out the problems began to surface. First we found that the rfer did not work correctly. It was way too warm, about 50 degrees. Next the bench in the slide collapsed while I sat on it. We returned to the dealer and they shored up the bench, and replaced the Dometic refer. days later it was obvious that the refer wasn't working right, but we had already lost 10 days on a prepaid CG and found a way around the refer problem and reported back to Keystone that there was still a problem. After our shortened trip we took the TT to the dealer. Here they ran several test on the refer and found that Keystone had forgotten to cut the hole in the roof for the hot air behind the refer to escape. Next trip out the bench collapsed again. Turns out it was stapled together, but all the staples had been used from the top side. Had they been used on the bottom side it is possible that it would have held up. I finally removed the bench completely and bought new furniture for the slide. Than we found out that the spare wheel did not fir the lug pattern on the axle, there were leaks in the bathroom and under the kitchen sink. All of this happened inside of the first 6 months of ownership.

When I tried to get Keystone to re-imburse us for the lost food due to the refer not working, and the added expense of returning 150 miles to the dealer plus lost time at the CG we had pre-paid we were told that "sorry we don't pay for that". So as far as Keystone is concerned, I had owner 3 trailers from them: "the first, the only and the last'. If we need a new trailer I will go back to Lance which wasn't perfect either, but at least the problems got fixed at their expense not mine.

[Carrottop]

I am in the camp of enlarging the opening and having them install a matching larger window. Anything less would be an unacceptable fix in my opinion.

[tubacjohn]

I had a shattered rear Picture window on My 2014 3402RL. Covered by insurance ($1000 deductible) Keystone replaced with a framed window entire assembly even though all the other windows are frameless. They said they don't make that size assembly in frameless. No-one called me to let me know it was being done. Just found out when I picked up the unit completed. Not surprised. Just a little disappoiinted. At least there is a window in it now.

[foldbak]

Windows appear to be a common problem for Keystone. My 2018 1/2 Ton had both the rear fixed glass windows leak. The dealer did a pressure test and found all the windows leaked. They have literally replaced every window on the trailer. Reason.....everything from a bad batch to improper installation. I'm going with the ladder.



I wouldn't settle for anything but a correct installation and warrantied repair. My trailer has been back for warranty so many times its on the verge of qualifying as a lemon. Luckily the dealer is going the extra mile to make it right.



Good luck and lets us know the outcome.

[FlyingAroundRV]

I'll also back the "larger window" fix. These windows are made to design dimensions and can be made any size to order, and are. There might even be a window for a different trailer design that is already the right dimensions. You just have to convince someone at Keystone to do a little research.

Another possibility is that the window unit itself was made wrong by the window factory and installed in a correct sized hole. As John mentioned, the window cutouts are done either by a cnc router or with a router template, so it's a hard to see how the hole would be cut wrong.

As another possibility, the window unit that was put in the hole may have been for a different floor plan and picked up by mistake or placed in the wrong stack because its dimensions were similar to the right units.

In any case there are dozens of scenerios that could account for the misfit and I think it would be easy for Keystone to give you a more acceptable fix than having a window that protrudes excessively, or a mismatching unit. Those proposals are not nearly good enough, just lazy offerings.

[wiredgeorge]

The OP has not been on for six days so suspect he was just venting and had no intention of seeking advice. Will very likely never hear what happened.

[worjef]

The OP has not been on for six days so suspect he was just venting and had no intention of seeking advice. Will very likely never hear what happened.

I have been reading everyone comments and taking in all the advice. At this time I still do not have any answers. Keystone called me last week and said they were going to have a senior manager call the repair shop because the original window should fit with out any issues. I called the repair shop the next day and they said they hadn't heard from Keystone and there was no way the window will fit properly.

It's all a he said she said between the Keystone and the repair shop but a lot of things don't seem to make since that Keystone is telling me. Keystone told me that had no idea where I received my information about with the window sticking out an in or putting in a seamless window and they had not heard from the repair shop since September. However they did admit to shipping out 3 windows to the repair shop. My other concern is that if the window really does fit correctly why didn't it leave the factory assembly line fitting correctly? There was a gap at the top between the top of the window and camper.

At this point, this is probably the last Keystone product I will ever own. I've been without a camper for almost 3 months now. I'm paying monthly for enclosed storage while my camper is sitting outside at the repair shop. It's been raining and even snowing and last time I saw the camper nothing extra was done to prevent the camper from leaking.

Just so everyone know I appreciate their comments and thoughts.

[TLB]

At this point, this is probably the last Keystone product I will ever own.

Anything that is "handmade" will have defects so this type of problem is not just a Keystone issue.
I hope a solution comes quick to the problem.

[worjef]

Anything that is "handmade" will have defects so this type of problem is not just a Keystone issue.
I hope a solution comes quick to the problem.

I don't disagree with that comment but how the business handles the situation is what matters the most. I've tried to leave a lot of emotion out of the situation and in doing so have left out a lot of detail. I've never had an attitude with Keystone but their support team has been very defensive and very quick to point fingers. I also feel that they flat out lied to me when they said that my repair shop had not contacted them since September but admitted to shipping out 2 of the windows in October. I've already made my purchase not sure they care any longer.

[sourdough]

worjef, just a thought; are you doing this all by telephone and just jotting down notes of what they are saying? If so, remember that any/all of them can/will keep you going in a circle from now on if you let them. Have you laid eyes on the "it will stick out an inch" situation? Has the shop shown you exactly what they are talking about as they position the window etc.? If not, I would be front and center, face to face with the folks and get all the "fuzzy" communication out of the way make sure we were all on the same, documented, page. At the rate this is going I don't know if I see a resolution before you grow old and die...:):flowers:

[JRTJH]

Most window cutouts are slightly oversized. By that I mean that the cutout is sized to allow for expansion and for "minimal" differences in window sizing....

Imagine the window is 29" tall and 19" wide. The opening would probably be cut 30x20 to allow for the window to fit with some space on all sides. Now, if the flange is 3/4" and the window is installed in the opening "flush with the bottom of the cutout, there would be a 1/4" gap at the top of the window.

If the window were installed with 1/2" spacing on all sides, there would be a 1/4" overlap on all sides.

The above measurements are to illustrate the example, not necessarily correct or the measurements typically used in RV window installations.

So, this may be a matter of whomever is installing the window at the dealership not installing it correctly or the inside mounting flange not being properly tightened or possibly slipping because of a twist/warp in the mounting frame ????

[FlyingAroundRV]

I agree with Danny, in that sometimes you have to go nose to nose with people to get things done. From what I've gathered since we started researching RVs, I found 2 things about the industry; 1) The sales are red hot and the dealers and manufacturers are run off their feet just supplying the demand and 2) This has cause an overwhelming situation for the dealer service centers and repair shops.
In an assembly line situation, things can be done quickly with minimal personnel. But when it comes to repairs, each problem is slightly different and is more labor intensive. Almost all manufacturers put the emphasis on sales rather than support as that is where their revenue comes from. It's the same whether it's RVs, houses, cars or plain old widgets.
Long story short, my point is: you have to be firm, but friendly. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, but when a situation occurs as you describe, which is costing you money, there is no substitute for fronting up to people and not accepting waffley promises.

[ctbruce]

And if you are not doing so, leave an email string documentingvall conversations. That way there is less chance of missed or lost conversations.

[worjef]

I thought I would update everyone on the final results of the camper. After 92 days in the shop I have a properly fitting original window installed. After Keystone sent a 3rd window and said the repair shop was not installing the window properly the repair shop sent dimensions and pictures. Keystone then determined they were sending out the wrong window. The 4th window from Keystone fit correctly. However Keystone told the repair shop to use butyl tape to make window 1-3 fit properly and when they took the tape off for the 4th window it ripped the wallpaper and they are repairing that now.

Keystone was very defensive when I talked to them and very quick to place blame on the repair shop, but at the end of the day I'm happy. There could have been better communication between the repair shop and Keystone but after I got involved and started calling every other day asking for updates the issue got resolved.

[bbells]

Yep. Same situation and solution and trouble I had for my North Trail.

[sourdough]

I thought I would update everyone on the final results of the camper. After 92 days in the shop I have a properly fitting original window installed. After Keystone sent a 3rd window and said the repair shop was not installing the window properly the repair shop sent dimensions and pictures. Keystone then determined they were sending out the wrong window. The 4th window from Keystone fit correctly. However Keystone told the repair shop to use butyl tape to make window 1-3 fit properly and when they took the tape off for the 4th window it ripped the wallpaper and they are repairing that now.

Keystone was very defensive when I talked to them and very quick to place blame on the repair shop, but at the end of the day I'm happy. There could have been better communication between the repair shop and Keystone but after I got involved and started calling every other day asking for updates the issue got resolved.

Great! I'm glad they got it fixed. It's unfortunate but sometimes you have to become the squeaky wheel, especially dealing with RVs.

[JohnP]

A 5-6 buck tube of outdoor window and door clear silicone will usually handle this kind of problem and what the folks on another Keystone branded 5ers site have used with good resulys. This is what I'll be using on one of our windows that just recently showed a minor leak. You can also use some butyl tape(12 bucks), found at any RV store. The stuff that I bought on AMAZON for our last 5er was advertised as butyl but wasn't.
Thats what I did,,,,, checked the caulking around and found Keystone didn't caulk the whole perimeter of the window. I found about 6" wasn't. After I filled that portion in my leaky window was sealed and no further leak.