Towing Weight Questions? Here's All The Answers!

[sourdough]

I was comparing air springs vs the sumo springs being discussed elsewhere and came across this video. I had not seen it before and it is quite possibly the best effort at explaining all the nuances of weights, towing and the ramifications of not following those limits that I have ever seen.

We have had lots of new members and lots that don't understand the various limitations and the interplay between them. It's a little bit long, but, I didn't find it boring even though I knew the information. Here it is and hope you find it worthwhile:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwFLOBrADBs

Whoops! Just looked at post and didn't know it wouldn't just let you click on the link and view. There is a note to view on you tube in the center of the box when it comes up; just click on it and the video will play.

[sourdough]

I'm bringing this post out, as it falls out the bottom, simply because what it provides is what countless folks have continually asked about; or were confused about...or? Those that have zero idea of towing rules/guidelines MUST review the video. So, until those that have no idea of towing guidelines look into what is required to be "knowledgeable"...I guess we hope for everyone to learn towing "stuff".

[flybouy]

Excellent video, should be required viewing for those purchasing a rig. Unfortunately there will always be the folks who just don't understand or are unwilling to recognize an error in their judgment by rationalizing that they only "go a short distance" or "don't take much". Typically these are the same folks that come back later asking about attachments to add cargo to the camper's bumper and what's the best route to a cg 600 miles away.
"Ya buy'em books and send them to school......."

[fjr vfr]

Great post and video. This is why I shake my head every time I here the dealer advertisements claiming "Half ton towable" or "our half ton series."

Wishful thinking sells a lot of trailers.

[flybouy]

Great post and video. This is why I shake my head every time I here the dealer advertisements claiming "Half ton towable" or "our half ton series."

Wishful thinking sells a lot of trailers.

Most rv dealers will say their trailers are towable by "whatchyagot" vehicles. You ask them what you need to tow the triple axle 35,000 lb fiver and the salesman will say "whatchyagot?". You tell him a 1972 Datsun 4 cyl and he tells you "don't worry, whatchyagot will tow anything on the lot!" :eek:

[roadglide]

Yup new 2500 Ford has more gvw then my 2018 3500 duramax . Im supprised isn t lawsuits with Ford posting tremendous amount of weight for 2500.

[rhagfo]

Yup new 2500 Ford has more gvw then my 2018 3500 duramax . Im supprised isn t lawsuits with Ford posting tremendous amount of weight for 2500.

Maximum GVWR for a 2500 is 10,000#. I believe that a Ram 3500 SRW has a max GVWR of 12,400#.
I got to believe that a 3500 Duramax has at least 11,500# of GVWR.

Now if you are talking PAYLOAD, it could be possible that a stripper F250 gasser, could have more payload than a GM 3500 loaded to the gills SRW.

Just the same as a F150 Max/Max can have more payload than a diesel F250.

[roadglide]

Combined gvw 1ton Ford 33000lbs , I'm seeing big fusions towed with SRW 1 ton dodges with 33000lbs combined weight. My duramax wouldn't be legal but Ford and dodge are go to pull over 30000 lbs .

[rhagfo]

Combined gvw 1ton Ford 33000lbs , I'm seeing big fusions towed with SRW 1 ton dodges with 33000lbs combined weight. My duramax wouldn't be legal but Ford and dodge are go to pull over 30000 lbs .

Not sure of your numbers for SRW, Ram has a Max SRW GVWR of 12,400# which is about a 4,000# payload. making a 16,000# 5er about the maximum it can CARRY and Pull within numbers. Making the max GCVWR about 24,000#. I don't have current access to RAM's towing charts.

[Tufelhunden]

Interesting video. I'm presuming you get hitch weight from the manufacturer or are people just taking a percentage of GVWR of the trailer.

[notanlines]

Tufelhunden, most who get that far in to it have the yellow slips from theCAT scale. Then there is no guessing.

[Tufelhunden]

Tufelhunden, most who get that far in to it have the yellow slips from theCAT scale. Then there is no guessing.

Total newbie, but I'm presuming you mean they weigh the truck with no trailer, then weigh the truck with the trailer hooked up but only the truck on the scale? Which could show the difference, or tounge weight when subtracted from the first weighing. Or is their another method.

I went off the manufacturers specifications when buying the trailer which left me 1000 pounds for cargo in the truck and well under the GVCWR. F150 with 1938 payload and 17100 GVCWR, 8800 GVWR trailer and 7050 GVWR truck. Thought I was being safe. :banghead:

[fjr vfr]

Like the guy in the video you need to do all the calculation if you want to know what's...what.
I think to many people just use the manufacture's tow number and if it's more than their trailer they think all's good to go. There is a lot more to it.
I see F150's and Toyota Tundra's pulling 11,000 lbs 5th wheels. They are for sure over limit on some of these numbers, but I think that they assume the sticker says 11,500 lbs tow capacity that means all is good. IMHO, I personally wouldn't tow anything nearly that big with a half ton, especially a 5th wheel with so much hitch weight.
There is a huge difference in the type of rear axle between a 1/2 ton and a 3/4 ton truck. The full floating axles of a heavy duty pickup are made to support a great amount of weight. A 1/2 ton's semi-floating axle with internal (much smaller) bearings that can be overloaded. Again, IMHO the manufacture's are pushing the limits of these trucks in order to sell them.
When we started towing a few years ago I did a lot of asking around from the long time rv'ers and universally I was told, if you're going to do much towing "don't even bother with a 1/2 ton."
With that said, I'm not knocking 1/2 tons. I just think some people are expecting too much when it comes to towing.
There I think I said enough...lol

[travelin texans]

The manufacturers should stop posting the "can tow xXxX lb trailer", most will exceed the payload of the vehicle long before they'll tow a 30k rv.
Even if the F150 has the same GVW as the F250 I'd choose the 250 (if I were a Ford guy), it's meant to be a hauler.

[xrated]

The manufacturers should stop posting the "can tow xXxX lb trailer", most will exceed the payload of the vehicle long before they'll tow a 30k rv.
Even if the F150 has the same GVW as the F250 I'd choose the 250 (if I were a Ford guy), it's meant to be a hauler.

And again, you guys are thinking travel trailers, both tow behind and 5vers. Flat bed trailer towing (think towing construction equipment) doesn't put the wind resistance or as much pin weight on the truck if the equipment is loaded on the trailer further back on the bed. And nowhere will you find a truck manufacturer that states a particular type trailer, such as a camping trailer......they just say "trailer". So if that flatbed trailer is loaded correctly, it could be pulled by the truck without exceeding the truck payload capacity.....camping trailers, not so much.

[fjr vfr]

And again, you guys are thinking travel trailers, both tow behind and 5vers. Flat bed trailer towing (think towing construction equipment) doesn't put the wind resistance or as much pin weight on the truck if the equipment is loaded on the trailer further back on the bed. And nowhere will you find a truck manufacturer that states a particular type trailer, such as a camping trailer......they just say "trailer". So if that flatbed trailer is loaded correctly, it could be pulled by the truck without exceeding the truck payload capacity.....camping trailers, not so much.


You are right we're thinking tt's and 5vers because this is a tt and 5vers web site. :angel:
As far as I know Keystone don't make flat bed trailers? :)

[madmaxmutt]

The towing standard the manufacturers now follow is pretty specific on the trailer needed to test the engine. Not so much on, what is used to check vehicle dynamics.

https://www.automotive-fleet.com/fc_resources/pdf/j2807.pdf

The mule tests I have seen on I70 are usually some strange looking weight sled with dual axles.

[JRTJH]

Well, based on post #17, it appears that the new SAE standards for towing aren't significantly more realistic than the older standards. To me, it seems that there are some parts of RV towing that are addressed, some that appear to be ignored.

Anyone who has towed a 9000 pound tractor on a 6000 pound trailer (15000 pounds) knows it doesn't handle like a 15000 pound 40' toy hauler.

So, it seems to me that we're really no better equipped to look at the "new standards" as quoted by the truck manufacturers and have any more reason to believe that their tow vehicles will perform any better with the new ratings than they did with the older ratings when it comes to towing a "big flat sided RV"

[madmaxmutt]

Well, based on post #17, it appears that the new SAE standards for towing aren't significantly more realistic than the older standards. To me, it seems that there are some parts of RV towing that are addressed, some that appear to be ignored.

Anyone who has towed a 9000 pound tractor on a 6000 pound trailer (15000 pounds) knows it doesn't handle like a 15000 pound 40' toy hauler.

So, it seems to me that we're really no better equipped to look at the "new standards" as quoted by the truck manufacturers and have any more reason to believe that their tow vehicles will perform any better with the new ratings than they did with the older ratings when it comes to towing a "big flat sided RV"

I think the only real benefit is that most manufacturers are now using the same set of rules. Kind of like the MPG tests. They may not be totally accurate, but at least you can compare and contrast between similar vehicles using them.

"The wonderful thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." ~ Grace Hopper ~

[xrated]

You are right we're thinking tt's and 5vers because this is a tt and 5vers web site. :angel:
As far as I know Keystone don't make flat bed trailers? :)

Are you simply trying to be funny....or do you seriously NOT get it, what I'm saying and the difference between towing a RV and a flat bed trailer?

[Tufelhunden]

Well, based on post #17, it appears that the new SAE standards for towing aren't significantly more realistic than the older standards. To me, it seems that there are some parts of RV towing that are addressed, some that appear to be ignored.

Anyone who has towed a 9000 pound tractor on a 6000 pound trailer (15000 pounds) knows it doesn't handle like a 15000 pound 40' toy hauler.

So, it seems to me that we're really no better equipped to look at the "new standards" as quoted by the truck manufacturers and have any more reason to believe that their tow vehicles will perform any better with the new ratings than they did with the older ratings when it comes to towing a "big flat sided RV"

The Ford guide, so I'm presuming all do it, also discusses surface area of the face and has different levels for different trucks and packages. So I'd say the tow ratings now are much better than in the past.

[Laredo Tugger]

The mix and match of a proper TV for a given TT or 5er can be confusing. It would be nice to have some guidelines of official standards (sticker on the trailer) stating "this trailer should be towed by the following vehicles", but I can already hear RV dealers whining nation wide. I guess in effect that is what we try to do here and many other numerous threads like this one, but with all entries being only opinion.
And before anyone tries to lecture me on the realities of such a proposal, I get it that there are many factors that go into the equation for the "correct" TV. Some that do not deal with weight at all. Finances and floor plans come to mind,to name a few. And I understand what a problem it would be for someone to tell the truth about tow vehicle capacities (matched to specific size trailers), obviously "tow capacity" is not working . We can't even get truth out of major media outlets, why would we expect it anywhere else. I guess some will say they don't need big brother telling them what they can tow with,but then maybe you do. But I guess that is what freedom is for, which I whole heartily support.
Just an observation, you may return to your regular scheduled programming now :)
RMc

[fjr vfr]

Are you simply trying to be funny....or do you seriously NOT get it, what I'm saying and the difference between towing a RV and a flat bed trailer?


Yeah, I think I get it and I do like to keep it lite. No need to be too serious. After all it's all just opinions and we all have them. :)

[xrated]

Yeah, I think I get it and I do like to keep it lite. No need to be too serious. After all it's all just opinions and we all have them. :)

Gotcha....I thought maybe I didn't give a clear explanation of the point I was trying to make.

[sourdough]

The mix and match of a proper TV for a given TT or 5er can be confusing. It would be nice to have some guidelines of official standards (sticker on the trailer) stating "this trailer should be towed by the following vehicles", but I can already hear RV dealers whining nation wide. I guess in effect that is what we try to do here and many other numerous threads like this one, but with all entries being only opinion.
And before anyone tries to lecture me on the realities of such a proposal, I get it that there are many factors that go into the equation for the "correct" TV. Some that do not deal with weight at all. Finances and floor plans come to mind,to name a few. And I understand what a problem it would be for someone to tell the truth about tow vehicle capacities (matched to specific size trailers), obviously "tow capacity" is not working . We can't even get truth out of major media outlets, why would we expect it anywhere else. I guess some will say they don't need big brother telling them what they can tow with,but then maybe you do. But I guess that is what freedom is for, which I whole heartily support.
Just an observation, you may return to your regular scheduled programming now :)
RMc



I think "big brother" is neck deep in vehicle safety etc. already. As far as trucks and towing, I also think we have tons of information and criteria so that an individual can study them and determine exactly what they need......IF they do it with an open mind, objectively and not with a pre-conceived outcome ie; "I've already got this truck/trailer etc. so I've GOT to make these numbers work.....some way" - which is the case far too often. As I said, the criteria is there. The problem is education of first time towers or others unaware of the available data.

My first "RV" was a shop built cab over camper. That thing was HEAVY. Dropped it in the back of a new 1969 C10 Chevy long bed. It dropped the bed badly. Added overload springs and traveled all over CO like that. I had no idea of weights, gvw, gawr etc. It was a "truck" and that camper went in a "truck". Fast forward to current days and anyone familiar with towing is usually familiar with the weights and how they interplay.

How do we fix overweight combinations? I don't think there could be a tag on a trailer that said it can be towed by a, b, or c. Too many pitfalls. Could the RV dealer be forced to require the numbers from your tow vehicle to match to the proposed RV? Yes, but then that would almost put them into some sort of "enforcement" role which they will not want to do, and then, what do you do about all the private sales??

I think in the end we are in about as good a place as we can get without letting "big brother" become too intrusive. At some point the owner HAS to have some sort of accountability for what they are doing and the choices they make. Does that leave the rest of the public at the mercy of those that won't follow the weight limitations? Yes. But, that's the way it is with everything else; driving under the influence, robbing, murder, etc. We all have to deal with those that believe the rules are "for someone else", or they will never be caught. That's the way it is in a free society and I believe will have to stay that way so that we retain freedom of choice. Those that choose to disregard the rules and then cause damage or injuries due to their negligence should then have to pay to the fullest extent of the law. JMO

[Laredo Tugger]

Your post is spot on Danny!!
Maybe we are saying the same thing here, but I like your version better.
RMc

[cookinwitdiesel]

Great video, thanks for posting that. I had been doing a lot of that math myself without the easy to use excel (that I now have downloaded :))

Pretty eye opening - also makes me feel like I should have gotten a 3500 instead of a 2500. Next truck will be a DRW 3500 no questions asked. Wife keeps eyeballing fifth wheels and that is literally NOT happening on this truck unless I lose 50 lbs, the hitch weighs nothing, and she follows in another car lol (even with a light 5er). With a high spec'd 3/4 ton, you are only looking at around 2100# of payload which does not go very far when you have 1000+ hitch weight on a loaded TT (more like 1800# on a 5er).

[Zixxer2Go]

I downloaded the spreadsheet from their website, and started running the numbers for various trailer/fifth wheel combos. If you'll excuse the modest pun, "very en-lightening!" :)

[rhagfo]

The manufacturers should stop posting the "can tow xXxX lb trailer", most will exceed the payload of the vehicle long before they'll tow a 30k rv.
Even if the F150 has the same GVW as the F250 I'd choose the 250 (if I were a Ford guy), it's meant to be a hauler.

And again, you guys are thinking travel trailers, both tow behind and 5vers. Flat bed trailer towing (think towing construction equipment) doesn't put the wind resistance or as much pin weight on the truck if the equipment is loaded on the trailer further back on the bed. And nowhere will you find a truck manufacturer that states a particular type trailer, such as a camping trailer......they just say "trailer". So if that flatbed trailer is loaded correctly, it could be pulled by the truck without exceeding the truck payload capacity.....camping trailers, not so much.

I tend to agree with Traveling Texan, it is all about the towing wars, but when a 3/4 ton can be listed to tow as much and in some cases more than a one ton! This is where many think a 3/4 ton will do fine for a 16,000# 5er. The one ton SRW maybe, the 3/4 ton not. They should also state on certain equipment trailers. Many think that MAX number applies to all trim levels, same with MAX payload a Laramie Limited or King Ranch will not near that, that is a stripper XL or Tradesman, but buyers don’t understand that they think that MAX number applies to all trim levels.