Towing capacity

[CanadianCamper]

Looking at a Keystone Ultralite

Our 2018 Toyota Sienna has 3500 lb towing capacity with tongue weight of 500 lbs.

We were considering the 175BH which has a dryweight of 3100 - not giving us a lot of wiggle room for extras

But the trailer dealer and Toyota said it should work - sure the trailer dealer is just telling us what we want to hear :)

Any recommendations for towing? Will there be issues towing? My wife loves the trailer - it’s a new van so getting another vehicle unfortunately isn’t an option.

[Ken / Claudia]

Your making the NEWBIE mistake most make. #1 You compare the tow vehicles max. capabilities and use the RV empty weight. Use the GVWR Gross vehicle weight rating of the RV which is loaded weight. You will never tow any RV at the empty weight.
#2 you need the payload rating of the tow vehicle. That is how much can it carry not tow. You have the tow number. Payload includes gear. persons and maybe fuel.
#3 you need to know the tongue weight of the trailer. That could be figured as a guess if you use the GVWR of the trailer and figure as high as 15% of that number. Normal could be 10% to 12% of the total trailer weight.
See my trailer the listed, tongue weigh empty was 545, as I recall, A scale check showed it at 920 lbs loaded for camping. Food, clothing, fresh water tank full, just the normal camping stuff adds up.

[wiredgeorge]

The dealer makes money by selling RVs. You are very correct to suspect ulterior motives from the dealer. I don't think your van would be much fun towing that much weight. I am sure the experts will be all over this with facts and computations but I would be scared to pull that much weight with a vehicle intended for hauling kiddos and not trailers. If you have the money, buy a used 1/2 ton of any sort and use it for towing. I am sure you can find one cheap enough that it would be a lot more fun to camp when you are not putting your safety and vehicle in jepordy.

[CanadianCamper]

Thanks for your responses - it’s what I expected.

Any recommendations for a smaller Keystone model?

[KeithInUpstateNY]

With the dry weight of the camper only 400 pounds less than the towing capacity of the vehicle it will be virtually impossible for you to stay under the MAXIMUM weight your vehicle is rated for. In addition to the dry weight of the camper you have to add the weight of any passengers, pets, or other cargo in the vehicle that was not original equipment. Then add the weight of the hitch. Figure 50 pounds for a battery and 20-40 pounds for propane, depending on whether you have one or two tanks. That's towing with NO water in any of the holding tanks or even bottled drinking water (8 pounds a gallon).

Good information is available in the Trailer Life Towing Guides: http://www.trailerlife.com/trailer-towing-guides/

[sourdough]

As was pointed out, you are making the mistake many first time buyers do; comparing the most optimistic, unrealistic numbers to make the vehicle fit the trailer that you love. Reality, unfortunately, many times is different.

Your van can POSSIBLY tow up to 3500 lbs. Look inside the driver door of your van and find the payload. A Sienna is a light weight mini van - a grocery getter, not a tow vehicle. Since you are looking at a bunkhouse model I assume you have kids.

The listed dry weight of the 175bh according to Keystone is 3255 with a gvw of 4500 lbs. You need to use 4500 since you will never see the 3255 except on paper. With 2 adults and children you will carry quite a load - you can't keep from it unless you don't go camping.

Back to payload; you will have the adults, kids and all your gear in the van. That number has to be deducted from the payload listed on the door; lets just say 600 lbs. conservatively. Now you have to take the hitch into effect; say 100 lbs.; now the tongue weight...at 4500 lbs. figure a tongue weight of 525-550 conservatively. Adding those up you have about 1250 vs whatever the payload is on the door. In addition, the tongue weight is over the limit of your hitch, and could be by a considerable margin.

Keep in mind that the Sienna was never meant to be a real "tow" vehicle, it has VERY marginal towing capability. The suspension is made to give you a comfortable ride around town, not to control 4500 lbs. swinging in the wind behind you.

All that said, you can probably surmise that I would advise against it. It would be a bad choice IMO and compromise the safety of you, your wife and family. Buy that used 1/2 ton and make yourself a much happier, and safer, camper. JMO

[sourdough]

Thanks for your responses - it’s what I expected.

Any recommendations for a smaller Keystone model?


I don't know that Keystone makes something that small that would be acceptable. I just looked through a few and nothing comes in under 3500 lbs. that I could find. I did find the Bullet Colt 171RKCT with a gvw of 3850 lbs. - but I doubt you will like the floorplan. IF, and I say IF, you could load it light (it only has 811 lbs. of carry capacity) and keep it at under 3500 (dry weight is 3049) it "might" work. Still too much for the vehicle in my opinion but the only thing I could find even close to your van's capabilities. If the 1/2 ton truck is out I think I would be looking at a pop up of some kind until you could move up to a larger TV and then a larger RV.

[Wireman134]

With the dry weight of the camper only 400 pounds less than the towing capacity of the vehicle it will be virtually impossible for you to stay under the MAXIMUM weight your vehicle is rated for. In addition to the dry weight of the camper you have to add the weight of any passengers, pets, or other cargo in the vehicle that was not original equipment. Then add the weight of the hitch. Figure 50 pounds for a battery and 20-40 pounds for propane, depending on whether you have one or two tanks. That's towing with NO water in any of the holding tanks or even bottled drinking water (8 pounds a gallon).

Good information is available in the Trailer Life Towing Guides: http://www.trailerlife.com/trailer-towing-guides/

You yourself are probably at or over GCWR for that 6000lb.GVWR Colorado CC 5.2' bed. Base curb weigh for yours 4,390lbs. Your payload capacity closer to 1,400lbs. Your GCWR is around 11,600lbs You TT is over 6,000lbs loaded. Use this calculator http://fifthwheelst.com/rvtc_calculator.html

[wiredgeorge]

Well, now that you have heard from the computer folks, what are you needs for camping? Kids? I am thinking probably because you own a mini-van? There may be other brands that work better for your needs but if you describe them, perhaps someone will have better suggestions. I already suggested a used 1/2 ton which would allow you to buy a trailer that can be pulled with some ease!

[CanadianCamper]

We have an old ‘98 popup but are looking to upgrade to meet our growing family - two small kids. My wife wants a hardtop camper.

We usually go on short drives to campsites with full amenities - no off-road or off-the-grid camping. But it has no air conditioning and short on storage space which makes packing a challenge already.

A vehicle upgrade I guess is in order

Thanks everyone for the advice and warnings. This newbie shopper needed it!

[linux3]

Have you thought of something like a hard side A frame?
Not a Keystone brand but maybe something you should look into.
You have a people hauler not an RV hauler.
I had a Ford Explorer Sport with a 3.5l twin turbo. Claimed a 5k pull and 500 lb tongue weight. I was really not happy with that combo. Try to keep your draw weights and tongue weights under the rated limits.
http://www.forestriverinc.com/camping-trailers/rockwood-hard-side-pop-up-campers

[sourdough]

We have an old ‘98 popup but are looking to upgrade to meet our growing family - two small kids. My wife wants a hardtop camper.

We usually go on short drives to campsites with full amenities - no off-road or off-the-grid camping. But it has no air conditioning and short on storage space which makes packing a challenge already.

A vehicle upgrade I guess is in order

Thanks everyone for the advice and warnings. This newbie shopper needed it!


I and many others have faced the predicament of replacing a new vehicle to get a satisfactory tow vehicle. It is hard to swallow, and sometimes, very hard to justify in ones mind. Monetarily it just plain sucks. On the other hand, in your case, I think that you would really enjoy a larger, hard sided trailer with air conditioning so you could take your family comfortably. A nice RV is nice for older folks like us to go have fun and see places, but, the opportunities, memories and pure fun that you can expose your growing kids to (and yourselves) with that new RV is FAR more rewarding and can make swallowing the price of that new vehicle much easier (if that's in the picture for you)....I hope:)

[Tebpac]

We did the same as you years ago. Back then, we had a 96 Dodge Caravan and bought a Coleman Popup. Biggest they had in that line up which weighed 1750 empty with GVWR of 2500. We pulled it the first year with the van but we didn't do any real research and relied on the dealer to help us. I realized several trips into it that we would have to change out the TV. The van did "ok" but was not going to last. Upgraded to an F150 back then. Good luck in your search.

[bill-e]

Use Google, there are campers under 3,000 pounds

https://www.jayco.com/tools/archive/2018-hummingbird/floorplans-and-prices/

[jkohler70]

My wife is a paralegal who has worked both plaintiff and defense personal injury....so I'm an expert.
There might be liability, but here's the fact - lawyers don't sue people, they sue insurance companies. There are two reasons. First is that most people don't have enough assets to make it worthwhile. The second reason is bankruptcy laws in the U.S. If an individual has a monetary judgement against them personally all that is necessary to discharge that liability is to file bankruptcy. Bankruptcy courts discharge most personal liability judgments.

[Plumbtrician]

We have a Sienna, and a trailer that’s around 3,200lb dry. Probably pushing 4,000lb+ loaded. I pull it with our 15 yr old Expedition, and it does well. I wouldn’t pull anything larger than a lawn mower with my van, though. YMMV

[Frank G]

More opinion, don't forget the frontal area of anything towed. Even in a slight head wind with a low HP and Torque TV the frontal area factor will kill your forward progress. It can have more impact than trailer weight, except going up-hill. :(

[fjr vfr]

There are some fiberglass (expensive) trailers out there that you could tow. Some of them are very light and well under your limit. A few year back we towed a large pop-up trailer, over 3,000 lbs, with our Odyssey and air bags. It worked okay, but was at the limit for a mini van.


Check here; http://www.fiberglassrv.com/
You might find something?

[bbells]

IMHO, the larger tow vehicle the better. Plus, stop and talk to people who are towing (Walmart parking lot is good) - But be aware that many just give positive reviews of their vehicle and limit the actual facts. I towed my 4000 pound camper with my 5.7L Lincoln Navigator, with 60,000 miles on it, that was listed at an 8000 pound tow capacity. It had a very hard time pulling up long hills. It never would have been able to go up the mountains - FYI: Many manufacturer specs are quite a ways away from reality. I sold it and got a 5.7L Toyota Tundra with 393hp, and I not only can easily tow my trailer, it gets better gas mileage (towing and not towing), has a nicer ride, way fewer mechanical problems, and the controls are intuitive.

[JGriff]

I was in the same situation as you find yourself in now.
Had a 2014 Grand Caravan with the same specs as you and was looking at the Bullet Colt weighing in at 3000 lbs dry.
Read lots on this forum and decide I would go ahead and buy it and tow it with the Caravan knowing that I would probably have to upgrade.
It was great on flat roads and of course downhill but if you wanted to go over any hills the tyranny was not happy at all. Plus it was a slow go. I had the Dodge trailer package and used manual shifting but knew I needed a different TV.
Got a different vehicle that can tow it no problem at all. 2017 Durango. Still was able to have a 7 seater and my gas mileage is the same a the Caravan. Really. I have done the mileage calculations 3 times

[itat]

Welcome to the forum from 40 minutes east of Toronto!

We used to tow a '99 Coleman Santa Fe popup (about 2500# loaded) with a 2005 Sienna LE and no WDH. We needed air bags to prop it back up and were likely overweight but we didn't know any better back then. Kudos to you for asking before buying!

I would never tow a trailer that's supposed to be 3000# "dry weight" with a Sienna and especially not something taller than a popup. Are you looking at the Passport 175BH? I see one advertised at Layzee Acres right now. (We bought our current camper from them - used - in 2015 but never had to use them for after sales service so I can't really rate them as good or bad.)

If you can't upgrade your tow vehicle:
... look for a regular popup (not a high wall) with air conditioning. It will be low so it won't be like towing a parachute which would be the case for the Passport 175BH. Personally, I would prefer a popup to a small travel trailer. It'll be more more open feeling. The only negatives would be putting it away in the rain and it would be more difficult to keep cool in the middle of summer. But a set of custom made Popup Gizmos tent end covers will help a lot.

If I were in the market for a popup, I'd look at either an A frame model or a Rockwood "tent trailer". IMO, the Jaycos are poorly built - I wouldn't touch one. Colemans were always the best built but they stopped making them a long time ago. Rockwood "tent trailers" are the closest quality you can buy compared to the Colemans.

Now, if you can upgrade your tow vehicle:
... go straight to at least a half ton. Look at the payload (aka Cargo Carrying Capacity) on the sticker on the B pillar on the drivers door. Ignore all the claims about "towing capacity" since you'll always exceed the payload capacity before the towing capacity. I tried to tow a 23' hybrid TT with a Toyota Tacoma which is probably on par with the current Chevy Colorado. The trailer was 5200# fully loaded - well under the Tacoma's claimed 6500# max. - but with the trailer attached, as soon as I put a 3rd person in the Tacoma it was over its GVWR, and we are a family of 5. The 4.0L was under-powered, too. We ended up taking 2 vehicles until I upgraded the truck.

Look for a payload number of at least 1500# but 1700#+ would be ideal as long as you don't go bigger than a 26' trailer.

Good luck!

[BadmanRick]

I had a 2004 Sienna. I was towing a very large Coleman Bayside pop up camper. The factory’s hitch was very low to the ground. When I hooked up the camper it was only a couple of inches off the ground. The trailer weigh was 3250 empty. But I ran about 600 lbs of equipment.
I installed Air lift air bags at the rear. This lifted the rear and gave me about a 1000 lbs extra capacity.
I also towed my 19’ mako boat and heavy trailer 5000 lbs with no problem but not on a regular basis.
You will need to get Air bags installed and a good weight distribution hitch with anti sway bar. But your best bet is get a heavier duty vehicle.
Btw I got 17.3 mpg pulling the pop up with the sienna in this configuration.

[fjr vfr]

Be careful with a WDH on a mini van. Honda not only stopped recommending them for the Odyssey they now include in bold letters in the owners manual, Do Not use a WDH!
We did not use one with our Odyssey. We added the air bags and it towed fine.
I can only speculate that adding a WDH was overloading the front suspension at times?
Again speculation, but they for sure found some issue with using them. Of course like all the manufacturers you'll never find out from Honda just what the problem was.

[busterbrown]

I installed Air lift air bags at the rear. This lifted the rear and gave me about a 1000 lbs extra capacity.


Remember though, air bags DO not increase or add to payload and/or towing capacity. They only LEVEL the load.

[itat]

Remember though, air bags DO NOT increase or add to payload and/or towing capacity. They only LEVEL the load.

X2

People seem to think that they can carry more but the same parts are carrying the load.

[Hodgy]

Remember though, air bags DO not increase or add to payload and/or towing capacity. They only LEVEL the load.


x 3 . . . . . . .


.

[Wireman134]

Your van's payload capacity if full of passengers will most likely be exceeded

[steamboatscott]

This article is in context of a popup camper, but applies to any RV really: http://www.popupcamping101.com/weight/