Black Tank Help!

[sourdough]

My son is currently battling what appears to be a clogged black tank. He is in N central TX and I'm here in W TX. He seems to have it isolated to the tank. I'm afraid one of his issues is the fact he left his valves open since he got it hooked up to a septic system a few months ago. I have advised him on trying to check it but I'm running out of ideas and wanted to throw it out to the membership.

He has a convenience center apparently where his pull handles are. I assume they would be cable operated. Do they ever become disconnected? I'm thinking maybe the pull handle isn't pulling the valve open or....

Leaving the valve open has me thinking he could have a buildup that has blocked the black tank opening. He put Rid X in it and let it sit for 3 days at the suggestion of an RV dealership owner. It did not clear it. Has anyone ever ran a snake through the toilet? The outlet?

It is completely full so I told him the work ahead is probably going to get pretty nasty and to be prepared - he needed a lot of rubber gloves and maybe a rubber suit:eek:. To compound it, his cell won't work there and we are trying to text back and forth as he tries different things.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. I'm hoping for a way to clear it so that he doesn't have to take a bath in "stuff". I had told him up front that he needed to keep the valves closed but he thought it was too much trouble and "someone" said it would be OK. Well, here we are.

[chuckster57]

Rid X isn't going to work unless the valve is closed and the tank is full of WATER. If all the tanks drain out of one fitting, can he push a hose back up into the 3" waste line? If not then maybe putting a "back flush" fitting on and running water from the termination fitting might put water back into the black tank.

https://www.etrailer.com/RV-Sewer/Flush-King/F02-4350.html?msclkid=cd484965d3ca16984ee413be52417a72&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Shop%20-%20RV%20Sewer&utm_term=4577404346639903&utm_content=RV%20Sewer

Picture for reference only.

[sourdough]

Yes, he put Rid X in it after it was clogged and was full/almost full. I think he's at the point now he's not able to put more water into it.

I'm not familiar with how his drain lines look. All of mine come out in one drain and all the drain lines are above the coroplast. Short of being able to hear the hose in the drain line I'm not sure how he will know where it's at. With the other valves closed it shouldn't go too far I would think. I'm going to suggest a hose from the drain end vs a snake. I'm worried a snake, even if it's not rotated by a drill or similar device, might damage the valves.

[chuckster57]

A hose would be better than a snake.

[sourdough]

Thanks Chuck.

[chuckster57]

He might get away with sticking the hose down the toilet, push it as far as it will go, then turn on the water. Just be ready to shut it back off. Maybe a high pressure nozzle on the end?

[ctbruce]

I hope it all comes out okay...pun intended. If you use a snake, use it from the toilet out. That will ln allow him to keep the poo tsunami contained to the attached sewer lines.

Probably someone should tape this as it could be worth money...

Good luck to you all. This may work out but could easily end poorly. I'm hoping for uneventful.

[JRTJH]

Be very VERY careful with a snake. It's extremely easy to "auger through the sidewall" on a rotocast tank.

[travelin texans]

Try hooking the hose to hot water with a high pressure nozzle down the toilet. Maybe someone has a pressure washer they could hook to hot water down the toilet. I would not use a snake in a plastic tank & I would not remove the toilet til absolutely the last thing.
Yes the cables can come lose from the valves, they're usually attached with a set screw that can come lose. If that's the case he could lower the coroplast & reattach or open the valve with pliers.
What a crappy (pun intended) situation!
Unfortunately I think he's going to get messy before its over with, but a lesson he won't soon forget. Also from now on it won't be too much trouble to leave the valve shut.

[sourdough]

Thanks all. I've not heard from him in a bit; I'm sure he's still working on it. I told him it would be nice if he could work it from the toilet end because working it from the drain end is going to end poorly if he is successful.:nonono:

Yes, I was worried about the snake due to the tank and the valve. I told him if he used it to be very careful and preferably NOT hook it to a rotating device because of that. I sent him a text about the hose but I've not heard back. I don't think he can use any water to pressure anything because he said it is "completely" full (I think he tried to use a little pressure wand to unstop it and probably let it run a little too long). I hope it all comes out OK, but if it comes out I doubt he'll be OK; if you know what I mean. This is his first trailer too so he's got the newbie learning curve going.

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts. This kind of thing definitely illustrates an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Maybe a hundred pounds in this case. :eek:

[notanlines]

"I hope it all comes out okay..., What a crappy situation" Man, y'all are harsh!
First and foremost is to insure the valve is operational. Either it works, or the cable came loose at the handle end (sheath came loose from the housing) or the set screw came loose at the valve end.
Next I would try the clear attachment at the exit with a garden hose attachment used for flushing. I know these are usually not worth much, but in this case it will get moisture to the problem site and still stay connected to the dump tank.
Fill, drain, Fill, drain. Stir with a stick from above, fill, drain.
Learn, learn, learn.....Dad actually does know more than you think he does and your knowledgeable friends pretty much know squat.

Danny, I was reading your post to Brenda and I only read about three lines before she snickered (real loud, I'm afraid) and said "Poo pyramid, BIG poo pyramid!

[MattHelm21]

If he has to work from the drain end, attach one of these Valera gate valves over the end so if he has to close things in a hurry the handle is right in front of him and he knows its going to work. If it does end badly at least there is a chance of minimizing the mess.

[JRTJH]

I can't remember ever working on a black tank that wouldn't drain at least something. Poo pyramids typically happen under the toilet, not at the valve. Even if things migrate to the valve end, usually the shape of the pyramid is such that it wouldn't completely block the 3" drain. So, I'd strongly suspect that the valve isn't opening (or there would be at least a trickle of "easily identifiable brown water" coming out of the trailer sewer connection.

My guess is that before going much further with chasing things from the toilet end, pull the coroplast and manually pull the shaft of the black tank valve. If that doesn't start the flow, then he needs to disassemble the housing on the black tank valve and open the slide blade. I think he'll find things flow well, until the pyramid gets to the valve end of the tank. Sooner or later, if there is a pyramid, he's going to have to break it up, but if he gets the tank flowing, maybe RID-X will help.

[Pmedic4]

We experienced this with our previous fifthwheel, and we'd just get a trickle out of the black tank.

We tried Rid-X, Calgon, several other tank digester compounds with really no help. Couldn't go from the valve side, even though it's messier because of so many bends in the drain line, and tried from the toilet side and it didn't do any good either. Ultimately, we used the old fashion method, plunger. After about a week of the chemicals and no luck, the DW and I took turns holding the toilet valve open ( there was water in the toilet giving a good seal) and plunging hard about five attempts with multiple plunges. Finally heard a big whoosh, and it was clear. Sort of wondered what the clog was, but also was happy we didn't see it :eek:. Ran about 400 gallons of water afterwards making sure there were no stragglers!

Every other story we heard about preventing it, was not flushing TP, so we've somewhat gone to using a waste can next to the toilet and dumping it frequently. The short version is that even the dissolving kind, if insufficient water will make paper-mache, so we now use plenty of water, and avoid TP down the tank. :facepalm:

[sourdough]

We experienced this with our previous fifthwheel, and we'd just get a trickle out of the black tank.

We tried Rid-X, Calgon, several other tank digester compounds with really no help. Couldn't go from the valve side, even though it's messier because of so many bends in the drain line, and tried from the toilet side and it didn't do any good either. Ultimately, we used the old fashion method, plunger. After about a week of the chemicals and no luck, the DW and I took turns holding the toilet valve open ( there was water in the toilet giving a good seal) and plunging hard about five attempts with multiple plunges. Finally heard a big whoosh, and it was clear. Sort of wondered what the clog was, but also was happy we didn't see it :eek:. Ran about 400 gallons of water afterwards making sure there were no stragglers!

Every other story we heard about preventing it, was not flushing TP, so we've somewhat gone to using a waste can next to the toilet and dumping it frequently. The short version is that even the dissolving kind, if insufficient water will make paper-mache, so we now use plenty of water, and avoid TP down the tank. :facepalm:

Yes! I have never had a problem with the black tank in my RV history; probably due to good luck. I believe it was on this forum, or another, that the point of lots of water was brought up. Looking back, it's common sense but never thought of it. We run lots of water into the tank after dumping and lots of water any time we "use" it. DW doesn't use it for many of her visits and uses the trash next to her to avoid the paper mache effect. If you think about it, and the construction of the RV tank/holding/dump system, water is THE key element to keep things flowing. Thanks.

[Tinner12002]

I put about 3-5 gal of water with a cap full of calgon water softener and a chem pack in each tank before use. I had one of those mountains in my other RV...paid RV shop to get it cleaned out after several attempts trying to do it myself. Learned my lesson!

[Pull Toy]

As already mentioned, I would thin long and hard before using a rotating auger in a plastic environment. The chances of hitting the drain outlet by snaking thru the toilet seems pretty slim to me, and dropping the coroplast is a chore too.

I would try snaking from the valve end with no rotation just to check the distance before it stops. To me a loud clunk would indicate a plastic slide valve, or poo on the end would indicate the motherload awaits. Try just poking thru just enough to get a trickle going just to get some leeway on the liquid level. Once the flow starts, it may solve itself, so be ready with the drain hose, and plenty of rinse water..

p.s. Since you're not rotating, an electricians "pull tape" is probably a lot cheaper than a plumbers rotor, if you have to buy the tool.

Good Luck,

[sourdough]

Well, I've heard little back except that he had a little trickle coming out and he was heading back to Dallas (his trailer is at Lake Whitney; about 1 1/2 hrs.). Hopefully when he gets back we can talk rather than text about 3 words and I can find out where we are and what he's done in detail. Thanks again to all.

Hey, hey! Just got a text from my son. Said he is on his way back to Dallas but the toilet is fixed! No word as to how so will wait until he gets back to get the full story I guess.

[Harleydodge]

Interesting thread. Looking forward to hearing his solution, as it may be a good lesson for any of us who may/will encounter issues down the road.

My only suggestion here, and not sure it would even be feasible, but could he have possibly called a "honey wagon" and had them attempt a low suction evacuation? If it would not suck out through the waste gate then maybe removing the toilet and sucking out through the top?
Assuming this was a poo-ramid type clog and not a faulty waste gate or valve.

Just my thoughts...

[notanlines]

Pull Toy's "poo on the end would indicate the mother load awaits" is living proof that we have a sense of humor on this forum!:D

[sourdough]

He said he didn't know what happened. He messed with it all day Saturday and it wouldn't clear - he just got a trickle going by yesterday evening. He woke up this morning and it was clear. He was very happy. I told him that chances are he still has a problem waiting for him until he cleans it out thoroughly. He does not have a clear fitting on his sewer line and I told him to get one before he went back next weekend plus the backflush attachment mentioned earlier in this thread - in case. I advised that his next Sat. needs to be spent filling and flushing that tank until you can drink the water coming out of it.....OK, I didn't go that far.:lol:

[ctbruce]

I hope it all comes out okay...pun intended. If you use a snake, use it from the toilet out. That will ln allow him to keep the poo tsunami contained to the attached sewer lines.

Probably someone should tape this as it could be worth money...

Good luck to you all. This may work out but could easily end poorly. I'm hoping for uneventful.And just to clarify, as several have cautioned, I would manually push the snake around by hand. No real need to auger anything, unless your crapping potato peels.

I had to do this, use a snake, in a trailer that had a 90* turn into the black tank from the toilet. It was more like a poo Schlitterbahn than a good design. The poo went down the slide and then deposited at the end of the chute. The snake broke up the party and all came out well. I now keep it in my traveling tool kit, just in case.

[sourdough]

And just to clarify, as several have cautioned, I would manually push the snake around by hand. No real need to auger anything, unless your crapping potato peels.

I had to do this, use a snake, in a trailer that had a 90* turn into the black tank from the toilet. It was more like a poo Schlitterbahn than a good design. The poo went down the slide and then deposited at the end of the chute. The snake broke up the party and all came out well. I now keep it in my traveling tool kit, just in case.

Whew! I don't keep a snake for my trailer. I intend to use abundant amounts of water. So far that has worked for a long time. I just can't get myself up for laying on the ground, under the drain, working a snake to clear the forthcoming tsunami....goggles, plastic gloves, a mask, paper towels and clothes pin for the nose.....nah, I like lots of water.:D I do have a few surplus gas masks (Israeli and Russian) that would probably work pretty good but.....I like lots of water...:D

[Pmedic4]

Interesting thread. Looking forward to hearing his solution, as it may be a good lesson for any of us who may/will encounter issues down the road.

My only suggestion here, and not sure it would even be feasible, but could he have possibly called a "honey wagon" and had them attempt a low suction evacuation? If it would not suck out through the waste gate then maybe removing the toilet and sucking out through the top?
Assuming this was a poo-ramid type clog and not a faulty waste gate or valve.

Just my thoughts...

I had considered a Honey Wagon company myself for the clog we encountered. I spoke with several RV service places, and no one wanted to touch it - literally and figuratively. After about a week, it was getting really frustrating. The other option was hooking up one of the hose flush connections and just letting the pressure build to push the plug back into the tank, but was very concerned with putting too much pressure on the black ABS drain lines. Certainly, any pressure would release out the vent on the roof, but the concern there was the sh-- spray, if that happened.

Definitely the movie 'RV' experience time.

[Pull Toy]

In the future, please don't mention "CAMPING" and "SNAKES" in the same post!

Momma sees this... and it will just be me and the dogs on the next outing...LOL!


Glad it all WORKED OUT! (Pun intended :popcorn:)

Good Luck,

[SummitPond]

... until you can drink the water coming out of it...

And just to clarify, ...

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[travelin texans]

Mentioning using RidX won't do much good unless you add to your full tank & let it set for several months, it doesn't do anything in a couple days nor will most digesters. Most additives added to black/grey tanks are primarily for odor control not for breaking down the waste.
I do add drop ins in the black tank for odor plus add a couple gallons of water & after dumping along with a good healthy squirt of a cheapo dish/laundry liquid soap to the tank to help break up solids along with lubricating the valve seals & so far in 40 years of rving never had a tank issue. Also add a 1/4+/- cup of cheapo vegetable oil to my grey tanks occasionally to keep valve seals lubricated.

[sourdough]

We do pretty much as you do. I told my son the same thing. A few days is just not enough time for any of those chemicals to work. I also use dawn in my bathroom gray tank. I noticed that it had what looked like soap clods when coming out, started adding dawn and now it just drains like plain gray water. Kitchen already has dawn in it from washing dishes.

[Tinner12002]

I had considered a Honey Wagon company myself for the clog we encountered. I spoke with several RV service places, and no one wanted to touch it - literally and figuratively. After about a week, it was getting really frustrating. The other option was hooking up one of the hose flush connections and just letting the pressure build to push the plug back into the tank, but was very concerned with putting too much pressure on the black ABS drain lines. Certainly, any pressure would release out the vent on the roof, but the concern there was the sh-- spray, if that happened.

Definitely the movie 'RV' experience time.

We were at a race when ours piled up and we used a honey wagon to see if they could get it out...didn't work, thats why I had rv shop do it. They said they probably do 3-4 a year.

[Frank G]

No one has said a word about using the black tank flush system on newer unites. I use it on every tank dump, can't see inside the tank, but I think it works well.

[sourdough]

We use ours every time as well. With the clear elbow you can see when it runs clear. My son's trailer has one but he didn't know how to use it because it never worked (it is a used trailer). I told him where to look for the backflow valve because I figure that's what it is and how to fix it. He said he will look into that Saturday when they go back. Hopefully, if he can get that fixed and the tank cleaned out, he won't have further issues if he leaves the valve closed and dumps regularly.

[{tpc}]

So I've only had two bad black tank experiences. One had to do with nothing being able to go down into the tank, regardless of the valve opening when the foot pedal was depressed, which it did open, but obviously there was an issue. The second was primarily an odor issue, which happened after I broke my face, and was not able to do as deep a clean as I would like after coming home.

I was able to rectify the second issue with a lot of water, some of the chemical packets (opened up prior to introducing to the tank), and letting it sit overnight. Since I had full hookup I proceeding to do a couple fill/dump cycles in the morning as well as the black tank flushing via the one on the trailer as well as the one on my clear attachment. I also used the "wand" in the toilet as well.

The first issue, well it was rectified very quickly, though you don't want to know the details lol. That issue has never occurred again and will not, after the discussion that followed the fix.

It sounds like a lot of this issue may be from the possible "bends" in the pipe on the way the exit. I don't know exactly how ours is because of the chloroplast but I feel like its a fairly straight one with only one bend, and a short run at that.

I feel lucky that both times for me were short in duration, as I can see how one might need added time for stuff to dissolve or move around. I wonder if pulling the trailer around would help dislodge anything? I also like the idea of a hose with hot water, but I feel like that might be difficult to do. Maybe "buckets" of hot water would work?

[hankaye]

Howdy All;

When I read about folks using Rid-ex and it's cousins I tend to chuckle.
For the majority of folks that have and use RVs they don't have the 'stuff'
in the tanks long enough for the full effect to occur. Granted it will help if
the dump site has a septic system ...
Now if one were to keep the black tank as is during a short stop over at home
for a week or 2 with some sort of digester (yeast), added then yea, when the
tank is full dump it and the results should be good.
Otherwise, use plenty of water, some sort of water conditioner (I use Downey),
and cut back on the paper and stay away from the baby/quick wipes and you
should have a minimum of problems.

hank

[Number 4]

After reading this thread I'm feeling mighty lucky! My current TT (and the one previous) has an exterior hose fitting for rinsing the black tank and I always use a clear elbow between the TT dump fitting and the accordion hose. Initial dump, close the valve and rinse, second dump, close and rinse, repeat until running clear, give a few final seconds of rinse water and drop chemicals in the tank to slosh around on the way home. Works like a charm and the only problem I've had is when the clear elbow dang near welded itself to the TT fitting. Now I give every connection a shot of WD-40 before hooking up.

[wiredgeorge]

Sourdough, I think the plastic elbow attachment with the water to clear the black tank might not be the answer for some black tanks. Our dump valve sits on the end of a 1 foot run of the black pvc and the black tank drain into this run happens at about a 45 degree angle the a short straight up into the tank. I have one of the contraptions you describe and doubt any significant water pressure gets up to the tank. I suspect a hose wand down through the toilet would be a tad more effective. Probably best thing would be to buy one of those nozzles that go in the side of the tank on the door side of the trailer. You drill a hole, glue the nozzle in and you hook up a hose or pipe to the door side of the trailer. When you want to flush, the nozzle spews water at the offending other side of the tank near the drain where the pyramid of paper (and stuff) collects. I haven't done it but have thought about it as I have an old trailer and of course, not sure what the innards of the tank look like.... using the clear elbow and flush always results in clear running after a short time. Not sure the water flush is actually getting into the tank.

[sourdough]

Yes, I told him the device may or may not work. I figure he can close all the valves with the exception of the black tank, run the hose (the water has to go somewhere if everything is blocked off but the black tank) and then, with the water source to the trailer turned off just open the commode and look into the tank. My assumption is that he can do that. If not he will have to do his best to see if the water is making it into the tank. Probably a bit of a crap shoot. Thanks for the thought.

[travelin texans]

After reading this thread I'm feeling mighty lucky! My current TT (and the one previous) has an exterior hose fitting for rinsing the black tank and I always use a clear elbow between the TT dump fitting and the accordion hose. Initial dump, close the valve and rinse, second dump, close and rinse, repeat until running clear, give a few final seconds of rinse water and drop chemicals in the tank to slosh around on the way home. Works like a charm and the only problem I've had is when the clear elbow dang near welded itself to the TT fitting. Now I give every connection a shot of WD-40 before hooking up.
Not to rain on your parade, but in my opinion WD40 is only good for 1 thing on a rv, rusted bolts, well 2 things, a great dirt/dust magnet. You're better off using a silicone spray, won't harm rubber parts & doesn't collect dirt.
WD40 makes a good silicone spray you can pick up at Wal-Mart & save the regular stuff for rusted bolts or removing tar off your truck.

[Pmedic4]

No one has said a word about using the black tank flush system on newer unites. I use it on every tank dump, can't see inside the tank, but I think it works well.

We used it too, running the rinse until the water was clear. Still had a clogged Black Tank issue, so it's not an absolute guarantee to no BT problems.

I had posted before, when we got the BT problem, we tried to use the rinse and that's when we found the backflow preventer/checkvalve was broke, so water sprayed all over the inside of the vanity!

I still believe the best prevention is lots of water, and minimal toilet paper.

[Pmedic4]

And just to clarify, as several have cautioned, I would manually push the snake around by hand. No real need to auger anything, unless your crapping potato peels.

I had to do this, use a snake, in a trailer that had a 90* turn into the black tank from the toilet. It was more like a poo Schlitterbahn than a good design. The poo went down the slide and then deposited at the end of the chute. The snake broke up the party and all came out well. I now keep it in my traveling tool kit, just in case.

I couldn't even get the snake to the clog. Our model, a 291RLS, had like 4 turns before it would even get to the tank, and then it kept just hitting a dead end, which I assume would have been the last turn before going into the BT, or perhaps it was the Gray Water valve? Which really is the problem, with so many turns you can't even tell where the snake goes, DAMN!:facepalm:

[mjeronimo]

Careful with the honey wagon, had a friend do it ( didn't want drag fifth wheel to dump station) honey wagon was there cleaning portable bathrooms. He gave the guy 20 bucks, the guy hooked it to his drain (I don't know how maybe he had adapters?). The guy turned on the suction and cracked his tank! I wasn't there but my other friend was, he said you should have seen the look on Thomas' face.

[hankaye]

sourdough, Howdy;

If all fails try giving these folks a try, they go to the trailer and this is their
specialty, they do a "Power wash" and return the tank to as near as new as
possible. (usual disclaimer, I don't work for nor have I any interest in the company)
If I remember Texas is the home State for these folks, well, at least 3 folks that have a franchise ...
http://allprowaterflow.com/the-right-choice/

Best of luck

hank

[ken56]

I have a wife who likes to use copious amounts of TP. I have told her multiple times that if we get clogged up because of it I was going to make her do the unclogging. I bought a couple rolls of the single ply read through it paper and told her to cut back on the TP use or this was going to be what we had to use from now on. That worked somewhat...lol. She refuses to use the campground restrooms so I had to do what I had to do.

There are some folks on here that don't think you need a squeaky clean black tank.......that is until they get clogged up. I always use the tank flush with every dump and at the end of the season I also use a wand through the toilet end and it most always gets more stuff out of the tank over just using the tank flush. The clear fitting on the tank drain is a must too.

[Carrottop]

I camp with a wife and two daughters I learnt long ago that they cannot put toilet paper in the toilet, garbage only. I would rather take that to the trash daily than deal with a clogged black tank. I as well use the tank flush after every trip and wand at the end of the season. I keep flushing until I get no residue coming out of the clear attachment. 15 seasons and 4 rv's no issues. Fingers crossed.

[MarcS]

[emoji897]

[saturn450]

My handle rusted shut and i couldnt get it to open. I took
A pair of pliers and twist the cable next to the handle and brook it free.

[Mboys]

I started using a Flush King a couple of years ago. I believe it to be an absolute must have. It may or may not help in his current situation but worth a try if he can borrow one from someone. In any case he should get one to avoid future proplems. It gets all the stuff out you think you got out during a normal flush. Highly recommend!!!

[scuba0331]

WATER, WATER WATER!!!! Its NOT that difficult!

[mcleods_from_ab]

I had similar issues once, due to too much household TP use by a guest who insisted on smuggling the good stuff out to the trailer vs using that which was there.

Ever since then a couple of times a year; I dump a bag or two of ice cubes in via the toilet to just a few gallons of water, let that swish all around for the drive to the campground and do a full septic dump on the way into the site while everything is all still freshly agitated.

Same as dish washing, the ice cubes do wonders scrubbing and save you a lot of effort. Try a few ice cubes in a plastic container that had chili or pasta sauce with a bit of dish soap, giving the container a couple of shakes and see the difference.

As most others have said; let the tank build up, not drain.

Maybe it is just learning after the experience, but ever since I started doing this, I haven't had any issues.

[Gord]

If he is sure that the line from the trailer to the dump is not full he could disconnect the line from the trailer. Then you can install a clear Y fitting that has the dump line connected to it and it has a smaller fitting with a valve on it that a water hose connects to. This allows you to back flush up the trailer lines to the tank. Because the fitting is clear you can see if anything comes out after a short burst of water up the line.

[Pull Toy]

Just as an afterthought... As mentioned several times "EXTRA WATER IS YOUR FRIEND!" After running clean, I add about 5 to 10 fresh gallons to the tank for the trip home, just to "slosh around" in transit .

I'm one of the fortunate ones that has a septic tank standpipe to dump into once I'm home. Even after clear h2o at the campsite, you wouldn't believe the color of the water that comes out after a road trip.

I've found that a road trip with enough water to add up to 2 or 3 inches is better to 20# bag of ice. The ice already melted before you're hooked up, and probably equals a gallon of h2o

Good Luck,