Fifth wheel king pin question

[Chief Mole]

Our Sprinter came equipped with a LCI 1116 king pin. During our first tow, which was run with minimum loading, I felt that there was an excessive amount of jarring and movement transfer to the TV. The jarring and movement transfer was both vertical and horizontal in nature. My opinion is that the rigid king pin is the most likely cause. We are using a Reese puck adapter, slider and hitch. The hitch is capable of both left-right and fore-aft limited rotation. Would I have a better ride by changing out to a cushioned king pin? Thanks in advance!

[chuckster57]

Pin box is just one factor in "chucking". You have wheel base of TV, Airbags, Suspension, Weight on king pin as a few. That said I did change my rigid to an LCI "Trail air" and noticed a big difference. ANYTHING IMO is better than the rigid king pin.

[Chief Mole]

Thank you for the quick reply chuckster57!

The Ram is stock with the exceptions of the OEM towing mirrors and the Voyager proportional brake controller.

My initial thought was since we were running with a light load (< 1/2 tank fresh water and little clothing), that the king pin weight was lighter than it normally would be fully loaded because the weight aft of the axles was relatively normal. We do have a second run planned in a few weeks that we will run with full water load to test the theory out. I keep a journal about the runs initially until things get ironed out or become normal for the rig.

[NorskeBob]

Full water tank may make it worse if the tank is located in the rear of the fifth wheel - could take weight off the pin (water is about 8#/gal). Low pin weight can cause the issue.

Air bags can make an improvement - will not eliminate all chucking. I run about 45 psig in the air bags.

Good to check how level the fifth wheel when towing - "nose high".

[Bolo4u]

Adding your "normal" camping cargo to the basement can add some pin weight and may help with the chucking. As Norske indicated, if the trailer is nose high, it may be part of why you're feeling it more. The pin on our Cougar 333MKS is rigid and I run a cushion disk in between the pin plate and hitch plate. It's a generally smooth ride. Also, if there isn't a lot of cushioning built into the hitch, some on the chucking may be getting amplified through the hitch/frame and into your truck frame.


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[goducks]

It's too much 5th wheel for your truck. 39' and 12,000? lbs with 2600+ on the pin? 39' at that weight will jerk your truck all the time regardless of hitch. Have you weighed you truck and 5er?

[rhagfo]

It's too much 5th wheel for your truck. 39' and 12,000? lbs with 2600+ on the pin? 39' at that weight will jerk your truck all the time regardless of hitch. Have you weighed you truck and 5er?

Key specifications - 3531FWDEN

Shipping Weight 10,750

Carrying Capacity 3,250

GVWR 14,000

Hitch 2,155

Length 39' 0"

Height 12' 6"


Well the dry weight isn't too bad, the GVWR is big, but so is the CCC at 3,250, if loaded with 2,000# of STUFF then 12,750, might be within specs of a 2500 Hemi. dry pin is just over 20%, with our unit we need 22% for a smooth ride. So 22% of 12,750# would be 2,850. you will be working to stay under the 10,000# GVWR of the TV.

Well there are far more issues that cause chucking;
Is 5er level?
Do you have at least 20% to 25% pin weight?
Does the TV have very good shocks?
Does the 5er have shocks?

[Frank G]

If you stay lightly loaded and near empty tanks all the numbers should be good. Only a trip over the scales will tell. Do you have a tow/haul mode? Use it if you do. Set the Ram brake controller to Heavy Electric about 8 or 9 to start with. Many of us tow with the 4 generation Ram and the 6.4 or 6.7 CTD and do well. Yes a cushioned pin box will smooth things out, MORryde is a popular option. Also what kind of suspension do you have on the trailer? Any of the rubber cushioned center pivots will help. One last thing of interest, those of us with the 6.7CTD are almost 1000 lbs heavier to start with which relates to a different feel in how the load (5ft wheel) pushes the TV around.

[bobbecky]

Had an old 25 foot fiver that had a rigid pin box. It beat us up on every rough road and every bridge we towed on. Got the almost 40 foot Montana that came with the MorRyde pin box, and the ride is great. You still experience a little chucking on extreme spots, but we have never had the ride so bad that it felt like you were losing control. Get a MorRyde or a Trailair or some other cushioned pin box. Unless the trailer came with shocks, you likely will not get much improvement trying to add them, as there usually isn't enough room to add them so they are fairly vertical to get the benefit from them.

[Tinner12002]

Here is what I had on another RV and it also came factory on my new one, seemed to help quite a bit on both.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ROTO-FLEX-1621-PIN-BOX-18K/172971632927?hash=item2845e9a91f:g:eNYAAOSwZqZaBGp Y&vxp=mtr

[Chief Mole]

Thanks to all for the concern about being overloaded. The 2015 Ram manual addendum stated that it has a 15,610 tow capacity with 3,086 haul capacity.

The water tanks are between the king pin and the axles. The axles have a MORryde bushing device that I'm still researching.

[rhagfo]

Thanks to all for the concern about being overloaded. The 2015 Ram manual addendum stated that it has a 15,610 tow capacity with 3,086 haul capacity.

The water tanks are between the king pin and the axles. The axles have a MORryde bushing device that I'm still researching.

You do understand that those two numbers are best case numbers. So the only work for lightest Ram Hemi HD 2500.
Your payload number is on the yellow tire loading tag on the drivers door post.
Keep in mind part of the issue you are having with ride, is likely due to a lite pin, to correct it you need to increase your pin weight.
You stated that your FW is forward of the axles, fill it full and see if the tow is better.

[Chief Mole]

You do understand that those two numbers are best case numbers. So the only work for lightest Ram Hemi HD 2500.
Your payload number is on the yellow tire loading tag on the drivers door post.
Keep in mind part of the issue you are having with ride, is likely due to a lite pin, to correct it you need to increase your pin weight.
You stated that your FW is forward of the axles, fill it full and see if the tow is better.

Yes, the Tradesman model. Which is what I own and why there was a special insert to my owners manual for this vehicle.

[Frank G]

With all due respect the 4 generation Ram trucks are tested and certified to the SAE J2807 towing standards. If you do not understand them please study them before posting incorrect data as this confuses others. The OP's vehicle has the capabilities he stated in his post.

[JRTJH]

Frank,

Chrysler, just like Ford and GM, advertise "BS" in their charts. You posted a link to the RAM towing charts and speak of "the gospel" (truth ????) about SAE J2807 towing standards. Those standards, just like everything before them, is only as good as the documentation presented to the consumer.

Examples from the chart you posted:

LINE 1 (first truck in the chart):

GVW: 9000 PAYLOAD: 2680 GCWR: 18300 MAX TLR: 11510

When doing the math, if the truck is at GVW, with a GCWR of 18300, the max trailer weight is 9300, not 11510.

LINE 5 (first diesel in the chart):

GVW: 10000 PAYLOAD: 2630 GCWR: 24300 MAX TLR: 16450

Doing the math on this one, if the truck is at GVW, with a GCWR of 24300, the max trailer weight is 14300, not 16450.

Every truck listed is "advertised in the Chrysler chart" well above the "true max towing rating".... Chrysler's "sleight of hand" is that they deduct the payload from the trailer rating. They do this by "SAE certification" that excludes the payload from the max trailer rating.

There is NO WAY to tow a trailer without having "payload" exerted on the truck. So, is it "false advertising" or is it "using different conditions to maximize the chart"???

The OP's truck, just like every other truck, has optional equipment (not included in the chart "base model" that will decrease the "maximum rating" that is depicted in the chart. Adding spray in bed liner, running boards, electric windows, floor mats, etc, all add weight to the "base model truck" and decrease the payload, which also decreases the max trailer rating, (IF YOU FOLLOW THE GCWR) from the maximum rig weight.....

Every manufacturer reflects their advertising with similar charts, every manufacturer "lies" by advertising the maximum trailer rating with an empty truck, a condition that simply can't be accomplished. Consumers really need to actually look at the chart and analyze it, not just pick a number and expect that it will "stand on its merit" as an individual rating. All of the ratings matter and all of the ratings affect each of the other ratings.

[Chief Mole]

Dear Admin:

Seeing that very few are looking at the original question I had and are jumping, heck, using an aircraft carrier's steam catapult to launch themselves to the foregone conclusion that I can not read nor comprehend my vehicle specifications and that both the vehicle manufacturer and the SAE are liars, I am humbly requesting that this thread be reviewed and or locked.

I realize that most mean well but this is starting to sound like a political discussion about gun control in which no one asks a question but by the heavens above they sure do know the answer to your problem and you are the center of the problem.

Thanks in advance.

[KHBama]

Dear Admin:

Seeing that very few are looking at the original question I had and are jumping, heck, using an aircraft carrier's steam catapult to launch themselves to the foregone conclusion that I can not read nor comprehend my vehicle specifications and that both the vehicle manufacturer and the SAE are liars, I am humbly requesting that this thread be reviewed and or locked.

I realize that most mean well but this is starting to sound like a political discussion about gun control in which no one asks a question but by the heavens above they sure do know the answer to your problem and you are the center of the problem.

Thanks in advance.

haha it never fails whenever weight is brought up, getting ridiculous. On another note, how much does the hitch itself come into play on chucking? I have a pro series 16k hitch now but I'm seriously looking at the Andersen ultimate hitch-rail version. Heard very good things about the andersen

[Chief Mole]

haha it never fails whenever weight is brought up, getting ridiculous. On another note, how much does the hitch itself come into play on chucking? I have a pro series 16k hitch now but I'm seriously looking at the Andersen ultimate hitch-rail version. Heard very good things about the andersen

At this time we are using Reese: Puck adapter (which was installed very loosely and has been corrected), square tube slider and 16K hitch. The hitch does have limited left/right and fore/aft mobility but no cushioning. Perhaps I shouldn't have said that, now I'm afraid that the Reese company is full of liars as well.

[Barbell]

We had two Reese hitches in a previous truck and both were terrible with chucking. Newer truck has the Curt puck system; pulling the same fiver with Morryde hitch. Absolutely no chucking with the new setup. My WAG: the problem is the Reese.

[KHBama]

exact same hitch I have but the lower end Reese, Pro series version. I get alot of chucking also with my 5er.

[rhagfo]

Frank,

Chrysler, just like Ford and GM, advertise "BS" in their charts. You posted a link to the RAM towing charts and speak of "the gospel" (truth ????) about SAE J2807 towing standards. Those standards, just like everything before them, is only as good as the documentation presented to the consumer.

Examples from the chart you posted:

LINE 1 (first truck in the chart):

GVW: 9000 PAYLOAD: 2680 GCWR: 18300 MAX TLR: 11510

When doing the math, if the truck is at GVW, with a GCWR of 18300, the max trailer weight is 9300, not 11510.

LINE 5 (first diesel in the chart):

GVW: 10000 PAYLOAD: 2630 GCWR: 24300 MAX TLR: 16450

Doing the math on this one, if the truck is at GVW, with a GCWR of 24300, the max trailer weight is 14300, not 16450.

Every truck listed is "advertised in the Chrysler chart" well above the "true max towing rating".... Chrysler's "sleight of hand" is that they deduct the payload from the trailer rating. They do this by "SAE certification" that excludes the payload from the max trailer rating.

There is NO WAY to tow a trailer without having "payload" exerted on the truck. So, is it "false advertising" or is it "using different conditions to maximize the chart"???

The OP's truck, just like every other truck, has optional equipment (not included in the chart "base model" that will decrease the "maximum rating" that is depicted in the chart. Adding spray in bed liner, running boards, electric windows, floor mats, etc, all add weight to the "base model truck" and decrease the payload, which also decreases the max trailer rating, (IF YOU FOLLOW THE GCWR) from the maximum rig weight.....

Every manufacturer reflects their advertising with similar charts, every manufacturer "lies" by advertising the maximum trailer rating with an empty truck, a condition that simply can't be accomplished. Consumers really need to actually look at the chart and analyze it, not just pick a number and expect that it will "stand on its merit" as an individual rating. All of the ratings matter and all of the ratings affect each of the other ratings.

Your math above is flawed!
If the TV with 5er attached is supporting the pin to get to 10,000# the pin weight is part of the Max trailer, so if the pin is 2,150# then max trailer is 16,450#.

[travelin texans]

Adding your "normal" camping cargo to the basement can add some pin weight and may help with the chucking. As Norske indicated, if the trailer is nose high, it may be part of why you're feeling it more. The pin on our Cougar 333MKS is rigid and I run a cushion disk in between the pin plate and hitch plate. It's a generally smooth ride. Also, if there isn't a lot of cushioning built into the hitch, some on the chucking may be getting amplified through the hitch/frame and into your truck frame.


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Just curious, what is the "cushion disk" you're referring to? If it's the Teflon disc, that's just so no grease is necessary, has no cushioning.

[travelin texans]

15769

15770
Switch to the Trail Air Flex Air pin box, best of both, shock/air bag plus Roto Flex plate. Or scrap the Reese hitch for a Comfort Ride hitch.

[Bolo4u]

Just curious, what is the "cushion disk" you're referring to? If it's the Teflon disc, that's just so no grease is necessary, has no cushioning.



Yes that's what I use, I should have clarified, my bad. With that said, while it's not designed to provide cushioning, it does eliminate the metal to metal contact, which can be a form of cushioning.


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[Chief Mole]

15769

15770
Switch to the Trail Air Flex Air pin box, best of both, shock/air bag plus Roto Flex plate. Or scrap the Reese hitch for a Comfort Ride hitch.

This is the replacement that we're looking at.

[Tinner12002]

This is the replacement that we're looking at.

Make sure when purchasing that you get one with the same weight rating as your factory pin box. I believe they come in 18K and 21K ratings. Actually been looking at one in the 21K rating for my RV. Just haven't pulled the trigger yet.

[jsmith948]

We have a 16K Reese hitch with the round tube slider mounted on industry standard bed rails. We use a lube disc. There is very little chucking - sometimes we feel a liitle bump on rough bride approaches. I do get some vertical movement within the slider (usually on speed bumps in camp grounds) but nothing on the road that will make you spill your coffee.
I would ensure that you are towing level and all components of your hitch assembly are tight. Load the rig as you would for a trip, then swing by a scale and get the weights of your steering, drive, and trailer axles to determine how balance you are loaded. BTW, the TV's ride was greatly improved by adding Bilsteins.

[Chief Mole]

To all who were helpful with recommendations on the hitch issue, my sincere thanks. :applause: After being in TT's for the last 15 years and just picking up the 5er this last January, I'm not sure what is and, more importantly, in NOT normal when towing.

To those who got all caught up with what they think my truck can and can not tow, how I should set the (non-existent on my truck) OEM brake controller and how every single SAE J2807 chart and vehicle manufacturer towing recommendations are a bunch of lies without even asking about what my truck is: Perhaps you should read and, more importantly, answer the OP question rather than getting into a genital size argument with the poster above you. You were as helpful as a sandpaper covered personal massager. And if you think that is helpful, ask your lady friend to explain why it isn't. Be sure to ask her to use little words so you'll be better able to comprehend what she says and means. :censored: :banghead:

[kinggartk]

To all who were helpful with recommendations on the hitch issue, my sincere thanks. :applause: After being in TT's for the last 15 years and just picking up the 5er this last January, I'm not sure what is and, more importantly, in NOT normal when towing.

To those who got all caught up with what they think my truck can and can not tow, how I should set the (non-existent on my truck) OEM brake controller and how every single SAE J2807 chart and vehicle manufacturer towing recommendations are a bunch of lies without even asking about what my truck is: Perhaps you should read and, more importantly, answer the OP question rather than getting into a genital size argument with the poster above you. You were as helpful as a sandpaper covered personal massager. And if you think that is helpful, ask your lady friend to explain why it isn't. Be sure to ask her to use little words so you'll be better able to comprehend what she says and means. :censored: :banghead:

Chief,

While I still find this forum helpful, there are those Self Appointed Weight Police on this board (And some of them are moderators). They like to make their own assumptions about your truck's capabilities and what you plan to carry around...and then go on to scold people based on their own assumptions rather than the reality that is your own setup.

I agree a lot of people overestimate the capabilities of their particular setup...but occasionally, some people might actually know what they are doing and have more information than the aforementioned weight police.

[JRTJH]

And, with the last two comments, since it now has the potential to become "explosive" and before members who have been "criticized for having an opinon" post their responses and inflame the thread even further, as a member of the site team and a member of the weight police, since the OP has stated he now knows all he needs to make appropriate adjustments/repairs to his "chucking problem", this thread is closed.