Keystone Quality vs Others

[sourdough]

We have threads and posts from time to time (many of them) lamenting the quality control and poor construction of Keystone trailers. Most know that the issue is across all brands, not just Keystone. But, if you didn't I'll share this:

Day before yesterday I was sitting in the RV listening to all kinds of noises coming from the trailer beside me - they are good friends. He was all twisted up trying to get upside down trying to run a saw in the floor.....of a brand new Bighorn 5th wheel. He has 2 bathrooms and seems the main one would not get warm and his wife was having fits about taking a shower. Now this again is a brand new 38' fiver. He said he had a 4" heating duct to the bathroom and a 1 1/2" hole cut for it to go into. The air just wasn't making it into the bathroom. He had to enlarge the hole to 3 1/2" and now things worked fine.

He has had several other issues that had been fixed before he got here to FL on his maiden voyage but that was missed I guess.

Just saying that lack of QC is not a Keystone problem - it is endemic in RV manufacturing.

[travelin texans]

Thor is the parent company of both your Keystone Cougar & his Heartland Big Country, along with just about any make or model you can name, so in my opinion they are the same company just different assembly lines.

[sourdough]

Thor is the parent company of both your Keystone Cougar & his Heartland Big Country, along with just about any make or model you can name, so in my opinion they are the same company just different assembly lines.

I understand completely. But, the complaints on THIS forum are usually about the issues with Keystone's and many times focus on the fact that it is just a Keystone issue. They aren't. The fact that Keystone and Heartland are under the same umbrella is pretty much irrelevant. As you stated, they have different assembly lines, but also management, business direction, etc. They ARE different. If you just want to rule out Thor, group it all together and write them off but still want an RV.....good luck.

I was simply trying to point out to those that worry that Keystone puts out a trailer with issues vs others that don't......that birdie won't fly.

[chuckster57]

I was simply trying to point out to those that worry that Keystone puts out a trailer with issues vs others that don't......that birdie won't fly.

Ain’t that the truth!!!

[JRTJH]

The way I look at it, Airstream is "the" trailer to buy. The most expensive per foot that's sold on the open market... Last time I looked, EVERY Airstream dealer has a service department to fix things that aren't right...... 'nuff said ????

Oh, Airstream is also Thor, so check that Forest River dealer.... Yup, service department behind their sales lot too...... :whistling:

[Hodgy]

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It should be important for Keystone and other makers to monitor forums such as this to see what is going on in the real world testing that we all are doing on the products they produce.

Oh sorry, that would require the application of common sense !

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[travelin texans]

Simply making a point that there's only "ONE" thing that Keystone, any Thor model, any Forest River model, any manufacturer, the BOTTOM LINE, not QC, get them out the factory door as fast as possible.

[Hodgy]

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$ $ $ $

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[dcg9381]

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It should be important for Keystone and other makers to monitor forums such as this to see what is going on in the real world testing that we all are doing on the products they produce.
Oh sorry, that would require the application of common sense !
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Grand Design does (monitor their forum). At least prior to the most recent acquisition. For me, these things (all of them) WILL have manufacturing problems post delivery, it's about how the manufacturer pays the dealers to fix (factory) problems and how many hoops they make their CUSTOMERS jump through to resolve warranty repairs. Accepting that all have problems - we should be talking about service (which yes, is party dealer) - but there are also variations in manufacturers responses (or lack there of) to consumers and IF "reasonable accommodations" can be made to facilitate repairs when customers are away from their home dealer. Simply put: I do not agree with the reality that if you're out of your home state, some non-sale Keystone dealer is going to take care of you..


In regard to the Heartland with cold bathroom, I bought a 475 watt plug-in wall socket heater the other day. Sure beats cutting holes in the floor... Works great in the bathroom, under $40.

[Tinner12002]

That's why this is called Keystone forums, so we only hear and read about Keystone products. I would assume most people on this site are Keystone owners so I guess maybe I don't understand your comment about people on here only thinking that Keystone products have issues...

[ctbruce]

If you want to hear some real belly-aching, check in the Forest River forum. Compared to some of those folks, we've got it pretty darn good!

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[Pbtman]

So far, I’m quite impressed with our Outback 250urs. Oh, there’s a few little things that I’ve seen that are adequate or really are fine. I just think I can make it better or a little more solid. I’ve installed some “L” brackets in a few places (sofa area), just to strengthen. Added a few screws here and there and I’m gonna install some of those battery powered led touch lights in the exterior storage areas. Since I can’t or haven’t camped yet in it, it gives me time to tinker.
It just seems to be a very well made trailer. The 1st trip out in it will be March 1st. I have my notepad and pen ready.

[sourdough]

That's why this is called Keystone forums, so we only hear and read about Keystone products. I would assume most people on this site are Keystone owners so I guess maybe I don't understand your comment about people on here only thinking that Keystone products have issues...


There have been countless comments on this forum about "Keystone's" lack of quality usually inferring that other manufacturers don't have that issue....if they don't in fact just mention the other manufacturer(s) - even if this is just a "Keystone" forum. Just wanted to share that personal experience illustrating otherwise.

[Freeheel4life]

If you want to hear some real belly-aching, check in the Forest River forum. Compared to some of those folks, we've got it pretty darn good!

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I looked around their forum and I would say you correct. Additionally I didn't really see a lot of guys like John and Chuck and others that actually had some knowledge to help out with all the belly-aching. Tons of resources around here.
The way I see it with campers, is they are still built by people. Not advocating robots in lieu of people, but people are variables. A guy having a bad day at work is typically not going to turn out his best work that day...
We sell boats at our shop that are anywhere from 60k-160k, and I can find a warranty claim on almost every brand new one that comes off the truck.

[JRTJH]

I disagree with the concept about Keystone concerning how many hoops they make their CUSTOMERS jump through to resolve warranty repairs. In most situations, Keystone does not work with customers to resolve warranty issues. Keystone works with the dealer to resolve problems and if the dealer is doing his job properly, he already knows what Keystone requires in the way of documentation and the customer is isolated from ever knowing what Keystone says and/or having the hassle of dealing with Keystone.

I'm not suggesting that owners should never contact the factory, but that's not the way Keystone chooses to resolve warranty problems with their products. They, not the customer, establishes the procedures to follow. So to somehow suggest that "it's a hassle to deal with Keystone" isn't an accurate depiction of the established process.

Yes, Alice, if you go the wrong way on a one way street, it will take longer to get to the rabbithole......

IF (note the capitals) IF the dealer is doing his job properly, the owner should never know if there's any discussion about or problems with reimbursement for warranty repairs. All the owner should know is that he needed a repair, took his trailer to the dealer at the appointed time and got it back repaired and ready to go camping... That's the result of dealing with a good dealer. Keystone and their procedures should never be the owner's concern.......

[earlzach]

Nothing you get these days is perfect. I for one wasn't as much unhappy with Keystone over my delivery defect. It was how slow and disrespectful getting it fixed was.
I know most dealerships are responsible to satisfy delivery quality. The shame of it comes down to the prices people are mandated in most cases to pay "Freight and prep". I know these values vary but to be honest the consumer is actually picking up the tab in more cases than not. If the dealer can get one out the door without touching it you still paid for the prep!! Sad but I'm sure it happens. Now when you find something it takes forever to get fixed because they need to contact Keystone to approve the Warranty? WHAT you just paid in some cases 1500 to 2000 to get it to you READY TO GO!!! This is what triggers Frustration!. Even in the smallest of repairs or should I say "delivery preparation". I know this happened to me. And I like so many find out quickly how the TT industry is nothing like the auto when it comes to Post delivery coverage.
Quality is what any consumer expects NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT! But a little bit more transparency would spare people of a lot of aggravation. JM2C

[ctbruce]

To second John's comments (no, I'm not his cheerleader!), it depends A LOT on the dealer. I have bought 3 trailers from the same dealer (2 Forest River and 1 Keystone ). All 3 were PDI'd by the dealer before I went through with them and did my own PDI. I found nothing needing fixing on any of them. I couldn't have been happier. Because of this level of service, I'll continue to buy from them. In my case, the prepaid prep and delivery fee was well worth it. YMMV.

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[chuckster57]

Delivery fee is what the dealership pays to get the unit from the factory to the dealership, in our case most anything coming out of Indiana is in the $3000.00 range. I suppose they could just add it to the MSRP, and maybe the buyer wont see it. PDI is NOT PAID BY THE FACTORY!! and as such can be negotiated IMO at the time of sale.

Anybody would be amazed at what I (we) find at PDI. Screws through tanks, miswired, shorted out wiring from brads/staples. Those things arent found at QC at the factrory, no time to put a battery in every unit, fill every tank with water...etc. I have heard many times its cheaper to pay the lousy warranty labor rate and get it fixed at the dealer than hold up the line. AND, I will add htat it is getting harder by the day to get them to pay for a repair, even with pitcures and a novel written.

Case in point: just finished a 2018 Big Horn 31??, MSRP $93,000.00+. 6 water line fittings loose, flooding the basement. one set of lights not working, take the panel off and find a wire not attached to the switch, attach, turn on the lights and it takes out 4 banks of lights. OH JOY finding the blown fuse, then undoing the wire from the switch and start pulling lights out of the ceiling. Got it 1/2 hr later, it was a brad the factory used to install some foo foo trim on the ceiling. That was just part of the issues. Auto level didnt work, turns out the "FROG" was mounted backwards on the frame...You guessed it, had to remove the spare tire carrier and a bunch of underbelly to get to it. again since the QC departent doesnt fill tanks and install batteries, Its not caught where it should have been.

Don't get me started on other brands issues...PDI money is well spent IF THE DEALER ACTUALLY DOES A COMPLETE ONE

[ubetcha]

From what I have seen on Youtube, Jayco has its share of problems also

[PopBeavers]

Up until a year ago we had a Forest River Solera class C.

I know that the factory rep reads the posts and replies because I got his attention when I pointed out that the fresh water capacity was actually 10 gallons less than the brochure said it was.

For those of us that do a lot of dry camping this is a big deal. I have not yet measured the capacity on my Keystone Cougar. But, it is documented as 60 gallons so if it is only 50 I can live with that. I think our Solera was 30 instead of the documented 40.

MY PDI Checklist includes measuring tank capacities.

[chuckster57]

Often times fresh water capacity includes the water heater. I wonder if the brochure has the usual statement “subject to change without notice”. Can’t say I’ve encountered any customer YET that wanted to check actual capacity of the tanks. It would take a while, that’s for sure.

[JRTJH]

PopBeavers,

Chuckster beat me to it, but Keystone's specifications include ALL fresh water, so if it's listed as 60 gallons and you have a 6 gallon water heater, your FW tank is 54 gallons. If you have a 10 gallon water heater, the FW tank will be 50 gallons....

That said, since I've been reading the forum I've never seen any comment posted by anyone who might be a Keystone employee or who identified themselves as a Keystone representative. The factory has never (to my knowledge) monitored the forum, offered any advice or contacted anyone who posted (good or bad) about their comments. If I were forced to make a "best guess" I'd have to say that Keystone RV Company has no interest in what's said here, what's discussed here and "couldn't care how we solve their manufacturing process problelms"..... In other words, I seriously doubt if they even know we exist (other than an occasional email I send them asking for answers to things posed here that I can't answer)......

[Hodgy]

If I were forced to make a "best guess" I'd have to say that Keystone RV Company has no interest in what's said here, what's discussed here and "couldn't care how we solve their manufacturing process problelms"..... In other words, I seriously doubt if they even know we exist.



I would think that applies to all other RV manufactures also. They are in the business of making money, not making a better product. As long as they can meet the warranty period in a cost effective way, they are good with that.


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[FlyingAroundRV]

... All 3 were PDI'd by the dealer before I went through with them and did my own PDI.
I think this is an essential point. When you're purchasing an RV, it seems to be "buyer beware" in spades. I don't say that to criticize the industry, I say that because it seems (from a lot of comments I read) that some buyers think RVs are built to the same standard as cars ... They aren't.
Also, RVs in the US are waaaay cheaper than in other countries. I live in Australia, and the TT I will be picking up in June is priced in the low 20s for a 30 foot trailer. Here in Oz, a trailer that size would cost you over 100 grand!
I think I have a pretty good idea of what I'm going to get for my $$$ and how it will stand up to being towed around the country. I saw a comment by a YouTube'er the other day that towing your TT around the country is similar to your house undergoing an earthquake for a few hours at a time. Couple that with how lightly built some trailers are and you gotta know things are gonna break from time to time.

[Tinner12002]

All I can say, and hope to able to continue to say, that my dealer must be awesome! He gave me a date to bring it in, I sent pics in of what my issues were, he had repairs approved before my RV every arrived so when he got it he was ready to start the repairs. Finished repairs quickly and correctly so I can't complain on my issues.

[JRTJH]

All I can say, and hope to able to continue to say, that my dealer must be awesome! He gave me a date to bring it in, I sent pics in of what my issues were, he had repairs approved before my RV every arrived so when he got it he was ready to start the repairs. Finished repairs quickly and correctly so I can't complain on my issues.

The dealership I bought our XLite from is the same. All of the warranty repairs were done on the first visit, completed correctly, on time and the trailer was cleaned and secured on their lot until I picked it up. I never felt the need to contact Keystone (the dealer did all of that as he should have) and my only interaction was with his service writer. I showed him the problems when I checked in and he showed me the repairs when I checked out.

If the dealer is doing for the customer what he is supposed to do for the customer, the customer should NEVER have to feel the need to call Keystone or to complain to the manufacturer....

I might add, I bought my Ford in Detroit and we live about 150 miles north of there. All of my service work has been done by the local Ford dealer. He has never suggested that I am a "second in line customer" and he has never told me that I needed to "contact Ford to get it approved". I add this, not to say Ford is different from GM or RAM, but to suggest that this is not the way RV dealers work on "out of dealership" RV's.... Two different manufacturing processes with two different service processes and two different warranty processes....

Overall, my experiences with the dealership we bought from are very similar to yours. Exceptional service from a professional staff.

[sourdough]

The dealership I bought our XLite from is the same. All of the warranty repairs were done on the first visit, completed correctly, on time and the trailer was cleaned and secured on their lot until I picked it up. I never felt the need to contact Keystone (the dealer did all of that as he should have) and my only interaction was with his service writer. I showed him the problems when I checked in and he showed me the repairs when I checked out.

If the dealer is doing for the customer what he is supposed to do for the customer, the customer should NEVER have to feel the need to call Keystone or to complain to the manufacturer....

I might add, I bought my Ford in Detroit and we live about 150 miles north of there. All of my service work has been done by the local Ford dealer. He has never suggested that I am a "second in line customer" and he has never told me that I needed to "contact Ford to get it approved". I add this, not to say Ford is different from GM or RAM, but to suggest that this is not the way RV dealers work on "out of dealership" RV's.... Two different manufacturing processes with two different service processes and two different warranty processes....

Overall, my experiences with the dealership we bought from are very similar to yours. Exceptional service from a professional staff.


Ditto here. Other than the initial period when the dealership was purchased by CW and the first SM and I were getting on the same page we have had superior results at our CW.

[Carrottop]

I posted last summer about my unit going in for warranty work as the kitchen faucet was dripping ever so slightly because it was not tightened enough it caused the counter to swell a little over the summer. I thought I would have a fight on my hands. The dealer asked me to take pics which they sent to Keystone and they sent the dealer a new counter to install. While the unit was in the shop the dealer noticed that the front cap was delaminating at the top and put the warranty claim in without me even knowing about the issue. When I picked up the unit from the kitchen repair he showed me the delamination issue told me to use it for the rest of the summer and when the new cap arrived he installed it in the fall. So I agree it's not up to Keystone to deal with us it up to the dealers. Ever tried calling one of the big three to have a conversation about your warranty claim they will send you right back to the dealer. I agree though that Auto manufacturers do a much better job of managing their dealers to do warranty work for cars they did not sell. All RV manufacturers need to push their dealers to do the same with RV's.

[JRTJH]

...Auto manufacturers do a much better job of managing their dealers to do warranty work for cars they did not sell. All RV manufacturers need to push their dealers to do the same with RV's.


This is my personal opinion, not anything that I've found documentation to prove/disprove, but the biggest difference is the business relationship between automobile manufacturers and their dealerships (licensed franchisee/company owned business) and RV manufacturers (licensed dealerships/no company owned business). So, with the auto dealerships, there is a "established protocol and lower level approval process" that is not possible with RV dealerships. There is very little/virtually no "local approval procedure" for warranty payment with RV manufacturers. In all automotive dealerships, there are established procedures to deal with almost all warranty claims and only a very few need to be coordinated with the manufacturer. In RV warranty payments, nearly all of them "have to be approved by the factory" before the work starts and in almost all situations, there are no parts on hand to support warranty work other than the most basic parts.

Ever go to a "truck dealer parts department" to get a door handle? You can get it overnight if it's not in stock. With RV parts, you might get it in 2 or 3 weeks, but only if there's any left on the assembly line as spares. Otherwise, you have to wait for Keystone to order one from China (or the distributor) and after it's processed through the factory, they'll forward it to the dealership via truck freight or hold it for the next new trailer that's scheduled for delivery to that dealership.... I don't think the business relationship between factory/dealer will ever change and I don't see any significant changes in the parts availability based on how parts are acquired from the lowest bidder in bulk, competitive quantity based on anticipated needs for the model year run. If the model becomes popular, there won't be any spares available and a substituted part will probably be installed toward the end of the year. Very much different than automotive assembly line parts availability....

[mark1228]

PopBeavers,

Chuckster beat me to it, but Keystone's specifications include ALL fresh water, so if it's listed as 60 gallons and you have a 6 gallon water heater, your FW tank is 54 gallons. If you have a 10 gallon water heater, the FW tank will be 50 gallons....

That said, since I've been reading the forum I've never seen any comment posted by anyone who might be a Keystone employee or who identified themselves as a Keystone representative. The factory has never (to my knowledge) monitored the forum, offered any advice or contacted anyone who posted (good or bad) about their comments. If I were forced to make a "best guess" I'd have to say that Keystone RV Company has no interest in what's said here, what's discussed here and "couldn't care how we solve their manufacturing process problelms"..... In other words, I seriously doubt if they even know we exist (other than an occasional email I send them asking for answers to things posed here that I can't answer)......

I can't speak for Keystone, but I can tell you that over the years I have had conversations with product managers at Keystone where they referenced things they read on this forum so I do know that in the past there has been at least some attention given to this forum and I can tell you that currently at least one product manager reads this regularly as he mentioned it to me in a meeting late last Fall.

[dcg9381]

One thing that makes it tough to "service" shop - and the same problem in the auto industry is that reviews are of the business as a whole. So a shop with a GREAT sales team, but an absolutely abysmal service department, it's hard to figure that out from the "star system" of reviews. You've got to dive into the details.

And very few people go into the sales side of a business expecting to immediately have to deal with the service side of that same business.

[Tinner12002]

That's all I did too was to take some pics and sent them to the service manager. Great people to work with.

[MVBrown]

We have a brand new Keystone Cougar 32RLI, and of course right out of the gate it had issues. The thing folks have to remember is this. It is Not like buying a new car. It's like buying a new home... There are always issues with a new home. I don't care who your builder is.

[RickBetterley]

This thread and the many similar posts have been an eye-opener for me (so new to the camping world that I haven’t even taken delivery yet!).
My biggest concern is that I live 2 hours from the nearest dealer, so getting things repaired is a non-trivial event. And our plan is to use the trailer in Maine (where we live) for 2 weeks this June, then base the trailer in AZ or similar in coming years. Meaning I will eventually be having warranty repairs done there, not by my selling dealer.
Oh well, I enjoy learning about and fixing things.


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[gearhead]

I don't know personally if Keystone/Thor folks follow any forums. But I do know personally that other manufacturers follow other forums. I have seen Grand Design factory reps reply to issues on their Facebook page and request the poster to call them personally. That's a nice policy.
I also follow a forum about truck campers and know personally that at least some vendors of aftermarket equipment follow that forum very intently. If you post a question about their product you will get a reply or email very quickly thereafter.

[Hodgy]

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I assume that Keystone has a quality control department. You would never know it by looking at their website. I have gone on there and asked two questions in the last 4 months.

Do you know how many responses I got . . . . zilch !

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[sourdough]

It may the kind of question asked. I've sent them many emails and have received replies to all of them except one. When I got tired of waiting and called them to speak to the person (I call them as well) that wouldn't reply I found they no longer worked there, explaining that situation.

Quality control? I don't know; maybe they hope for it on the floor to some degree. I think it's build them fast as you can, hope for the best and then damage control as they see fit. It happens with ALL brands. My neighbor campers, who came in with the new Big Horn this year, is fighting another problem on the fancy fiver. Explaining it to me yesterday over breakfast it sounds like the vacuum break on his black tank washer is either broken or backwards........sound familiar??:)

[chuckster57]

Quality control? I don't know; maybe they hope for it on the floor to some degree. I think it's build them fast as you can, hope for the best and then damage control as they see fit. It happens with ALL brands. My neighbor campers, who came in with the new Big Horn this year, is fighting another problem on the fancy fiver. Explaining it to me yesterday over breakfast it sounds like the vacuum break on his black tank washer is either broken or backwards........sound familiar??:)

Your correct when you say “ build them, ship them and fix them at the dealer”. Sales are off the charts compared to last year and the factories just can’t keep up. I’m seeing higher end units coming with just as many issues as the entry level ones. Brands that 5 years ago I would love to own, you couldn’t give me one today. I have been told by different factory reps it’s cheaper to pay warranty labor than stop the line.

[JRTJH]

If you go to the Airstream (most expensive travel trailer line in production) and read the comments there, you'll hear the same complaints, same frustrations, same comments about the "factory response" that you read here. It's the same with Jayco, Forest River, Winnebago forums.....

Oh, while you're looking around at forums, check out the GM/Chev diesel forum, the RAM forum and yes, even the Ford diesel forum. You'll hear the same complaints (except for broken cabinet doors), the same comments about "factory response and the same, "They build crap" comments that you read on the RV forums. And for "grins", check out the LG, Samsung, Whirlpool and GE appliance forums...... Yup, same comments, same complaints same questions postulating whether the factory has any Quality Control people and if so, what week do they work because they are never "on the clock" when the poster's product was going down the line....

Reading forums is a "pastime in frustration" if you're looking for "the best of the best".... People who are happy with what they bought (90% of them) are too busy enjoying their "thing" to spend time on the internet looking for problems.

RV'ers on the other hand, during the winter when the trailer is in storage and they can't use it..... Well, enough of them have nothing else to do, except find comfort with other RV'ers who also have nothing else to do, except find others to complain with.....

What was that old saying: Misery loves company...... Hurry up spring, so we can stop complaining about what's wrong and start enjoying what's right with our trailer..............

[JRTJH]

To further explain my comment above:

Let's look at a common situation with any forum. In 2013 a member posts a thread complaining that his new trailer has 3 cabinet doors with scratches and the sink cold water faucet connection was loose. Two or three people comment they also had a scratched "something" and one complains that he had a loose water heater connection. Then 3 years later, someone "revives the dead thread" with a comment that they have a broken cabinet door and are looking for a replacement. Someone else says they had 3 doors that were broken, so it must be inferior doors. Someone else comments that maybe the leaking plumbing caused the cabinet door to swell and break, so maybe Keystone ought to recall all their trailers since the problem has been going on for at least the last 3 years. (that was in 2016). Now this week, someone is de-winterizing their trailer, a frozen fitting under the sink cracked and is leaking, so they "revive the dead thread" again to add their frustration with the cheap fittings. (nobody remember his post from last fall where he says using RV antifreeze is a waste of time and money) Another member complains that their water heater pressure relief valve is leaking, so it must be that Keystone uses the cheapest components they can find, they're all "junk"..... Someone else asks about whether there's any quality control at all?

We read about 2 or 3 trailers in 2013, two in 2016 and one this week, "extrapolate" a "long history of cabinet problems and cheap appliances and someone makes a comment along the lines of, "This has been going on with Keystone for at least the last 4 or 5 years. They must not care about their customers" so a "novice" with little experience might consider that to be a true and accurate statement because people with experience with Keystone trailers are complaining about it on the "factory forum and nobody from the factory is addressing their concerns with responses".......

Nobody addresses that Keystone produced half a million RV's in the past 5 years and 6 of them had problems, nobody addresses the fact that the factory doesn't respond on this forum, nobody addresses the damage caused by the owner's kid slamming the cabinet door that caused the problem, nobody addresses the fact that the guy with the frozen fitting that cracked had posted the fall before about how he never uses RV antifreeze, only blows out his lines with air and it's always worked for him, no need to spend money on that stuff.

The list goes on and on. But anyway, there, I said it... Maybe we build into anything enough "me too comments" that it seems "everybody is miserable with cheap trailers" when it's actually a very minute percentage of members who actually have any significant problems at all and most of them have been resolved by their dealer when they took the trailer in for service.

If you look at the price of a new truck compared to a truck in 1970, the new one at $70K is about 30 times more expensive than the one in 1970. A trailer today at $30K is about 10 times more expensive than it's 1970 "cousin" that sold for $2999. I'm glad that RV's haven't kept up with the price increases of new trucks, if they did, that $3K 1970 trailer would cost $90K for today's entry level trailer and over $200K for a "luxury model"..... Few of us could afford to RV if they cost that much.

[sourdough]

Thanks for that illustration - and it's so true. And as a side note; I bought a brand new Chevy C10 pickup (back then just reg cab, long bed. 4 speed, no air, radio etc.) for $3100. Traded in my old faithful and fun 1959 Ford F100. I had reupholstered the bench seat with new, thick foam and a super soft (I had never seen it before) vinyl? cover that was SOOOO comfortable. I hated to see that go more than anything...........

[gearhead]

Yeah Danny..me too. New 1969 Plymouth Roadrunner, no options...$2880 at Newton-Smith Chrysler in Houston. I drove it like you would expect I would. Only thing that broke was the speedometer cable. Can't imagine why.
I don't remember a mention of the Quality Control Department when we took the factory tour. Could have been though.
But like John said, the sheer number of units that Keystone pushes out the door the number of defects will be staggering. On a statistical basis, I don't know.
I guess it depends on the business model. I believe the quality of Bigfoots are very high. But they only make so many of them, and that isn't very many. It's individually owned, not a corporate conglomerate. A new cabover is pushing $40,000 ($50,000 MSRP) and a medium size travel trailer is crowding $60,000. In this case I believe you do get what you pay for.

[JRTJH]

Just a quick comparison that I found somewhat "contradictory to reason"....

We tout the benefit of owning a "hand built custom car" as better than one produced on an assembly line by robots, yet we want our travel trailer to be "improved" by using robots on the assembly line because "hand built" has problems......

Yeah, I know, "but it's different with travel trailers than with other things".....

Hurry up spring, it's time to dig the pole barn door out of the snow bank and drag the Cougar somewhere warm for a few days...... :hornets:

[SummitPond]

... I don't remember a mention of the Quality Control Department when we took the factory tour. Could have been though. ...

We took the Bullet Premier factory tour in May of 2017. We had to wait for our tour guide (I think he was actually a sales rep) so we watched videos in the lounge. Each one stressed "Quality is Job 1" (sorry Ford) or something similar. Then during the tour we saw literally hundreds of tape marks on the units which we were informed indicated someone from the QC department found something they didn't like and had to be addressed. Given the latter (which to me means more than promotional videos) a lot obviously slips through the cracks.

Speaking of spring and warmth - lower 80s here today. A very strange winter.

[Steveo57]

These are just a few of the things I've found in our new Cougar 22RBS. I've fixed a bunch of other little stuff already.

Water pump held down by three out if four screws, the fourth was driven clean through the mounting foot. The inlet connection is hard up against the wall of the box and you can see where it's digging into the wood.

Everywhere there's a pipe or wire coming up through the floor there's a big hole not sealed up at all. The underbelly is enclosed pretty well but no insulation at all under the floors so it's essentially open to the outside.

The plumbing under the bathroom sink is all cock-eyed and the vent was only screwed in a few threads.

The wiring and piping mess behind the converter where you have to reach back in to get to the water heater bypass valve. You can see the control wiring for the water heater is so wrapped around other stuff that it's stretched super tight and just waiting to fail.

This is just crappy work ethics. Sure everything works and most of this stuff is hidden away so most people might not ever see it. If you built a house like this you wouldn't be in business long. And no self respecting tradesman would put out work like this!

Could I ask the dealer to fix it, sure but it would be more of a hassle to spend hours hauling it back and forth and probably still be a half assed fix.

I have the time and skills to fix this up right and enjoy doing it so that's what I'll do.15393153941539515396

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[Barbell]

I once talked to Keystone about warranty issues. After the closet doors hardware had been replaced twice under warranty and still failed, I built my own. Before starting, I contacted Keystone and spoke to an agent who authorized me to go ahead with the repair and furnish them with my expenses and I would be reimbursed. Few weeks later, I called again to tell him I was mailing the invoices; he no longer worked there and no one else knew anything about it. Their position was that since I did not have advance approval, no reimbursement. I have no idea why he left; maybe he wasn't authorized to tell me what he did.

[BigTexRex]

These are just a few of the things I've found in our new Cougar 22RBS. I've fixed a bunch of other little stuff already.

Water pump held down by three out if four screws, the fourth was driven clean through the mounting foot. The inlet connection is hard up against the wall of the box and you can see where it's digging into the wood.

Everywhere there's a pipe or wire coming up through the floor there's a big hole not sealed up at all. The underbelly is enclosed pretty well but no insulation at all under the floors so it's essentially open to the outside.

The plumbing under the bathroom sink is all cock-eyed and the vent was only screwed in a few threads.

The wiring and piping mess behind the converter where you have to reach back in to get to the water heater bypass valve. You can see the control wiring for the water heater is so wrapped around other stuff that it's stretched super tight and just waiting to fail.

This is just crappy work ethics. Sure everything works and most of this stuff is hidden away so most people might not ever see it. If you built a house like this you wouldn't be in business long. And no self respecting tradesman would put out work like this!

Could I ask the dealer to fix it, sure but it would be more of a hassle to spend hours hauling it back and forth and probably still be a half assed fix.

I have the time and skills to fix this up right and enjoy doing it so that's what I'll do.15393153941539515396

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Great pictures. How did you access the back of the water heater? Did you have to unscrew the panel next to the converter? Same for under the bathroom sink to access the electrical cord? Is the floorboard to access the water pump easy to remove? Have you located the black tank vacuum breaker? I usually replace the OEM with a brass Watts version.

[Steveo57]

Great pictures. How did you access the back of the water heater? Did you have to unscrew the panel next to the converter? Same for under the bathroom sink to access the electrical cord? Is the floorboard to access the water pump easy to remove? Have you located the black tank vacuum breaker? I usually replace the OEM with a brass Watts version.The water heater is accessed through the panel next to the power panel. Just two screws and it comes off. The panel under the bathroom sink is the same and gets you access to the power cord and the plumbing.

The water pump is on a little box next the side of the bed that just lifts up from one edge and uses the carpet as a hinge.

One big problem I found was that the pass through storage access doors leaked terribly. The water leaked in from the hinge and around the screws holding the door in on the side of the frame. I found a big puddle of water next to the bed one day and tracked it back to there. So I crawled in the storage area and had my wife spray the hose and saw it running right in. I could also see daylight around one of the doors because it doesn't look like they used any sealant around the outside of the frame and the only thing sealing it up is a bead of clear caulk on the outside edge of the frame. I sealed up the hinge and screws with some pro flex and it's dry as a bone now with the noreaster we are having here in Connecticut. I'll probably take the doors out and seal them up good this summer.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[BigTexRex]

One big problem I found was that the pass through storage access doors leaked terribly. The water leaked in from the hinge and around the screws holding the door in on the side of the frame. I found a big puddle of water next to the bed one day and tracked it back to there. So I crawled in the storage area and had my wife spray the hose and saw it running right in. I could also see daylight around one of the doors because it doesn't look like they used any sealant around the outside of the frame and the only thing sealing it up is a bead of clear caulk on the outside edge of the frame. I sealed up the hinge and screws with some pro flex and it's dry as a bone now with the noreaster we are having here in Connecticut. I'll probably take the doors out and seal them up good this summer.

Thank you...good stuff to know, I will check mine and seal.

[FlyingAroundRV]

Just a quick comparison that I found somewhat "contradictory to reason"....

We tout the benefit of owning a "hand built custom car" as better than one produced on an assembly line by robots, yet we want our travel trailer to be "improved" by using robots on the assembly line because "hand built" has problems......


LOL, John, that's why we have soft drinks with "artificial flavoring" and dishwashing liquid with "real lemon".

[sourdough]

Just to add a little to the mix on quality;

Finally met a fellow that's been in the park for several days. Came in with a new dually and a new Mobile Suites 5th wheel. Now, in my ranking of RVs the Mobile Suites products have always been up there in my mind....and it IS pretty. Said he had just bought it before this trip and it has been terrible....it's falling apart; plumbing, roof, woodwork and on and on. He's terribly upset with the product and Mobile Suites. As we've said all along....they all have issues; 10k or 500k.

[RickBetterley]

6th night into our first travel trailer experience and I have to say I am pleased with how well the trailer (Cougar 26RBS) is performing. Everything (seems to be) working as designed except a gray tank valve (at delivery we noted absence of valve pull handle, dealer installed a new one, which apparently came adrift in our travels. Not a big deal but it also turns out the associated valve must be jammed open, as the tank contents are in the outlet pipe despite the appearance of it being closed based on valve rod position.).
Kudos to our dealer, Lee Family Trailers in Windham Maine for delivery a clean, properly prepped trailer. They’ll fix the valve upon our return.
Fingers crossed things keep working. We really like the trailer.

[footz1941]

I think this is an essential point. When you're purchasing an RV, it seems to be "buyer beware" in spades. I don't say that to criticize the industry, I say that because it seems (from a lot of comments I read) that some buyers think RVs are built to the same standard as cars ... They aren't.
Also, RVs in the US are waaaay cheaper than in other countries. I live in Australia, and the TT I will be picking up in June is priced in the low 20s for a 30 foot trailer. Here in Oz, a trailer that size would cost you over 100 grand!
I think I have a pretty good idea of what I'm going to get for my $$$ and how it will stand up to being towed around the country. I saw a comment by a YouTube'er the other day that towing your TT around the country is similar to your house undergoing an earthquake for a few hours at a time. Couple that with how lightly built some trailers are and you gotta know things are gonna break from time to time.


Yes to the earthquake and then add to it being in a hurricane at the same time

[RickBetterley]

6th night into our first travel trailer experience and I have to say I am pleased with how well the trailer (Cougar 26RBS) is performing. Everything (seems to be) working as designed except a gray tank valve (at delivery we noted absence of valve pull handle, dealer installed a new one, which apparently came adrift in our travels. Not a big deal but it also turns out the associated valve must be jammed open, as the tank contents are in the outlet pipe despite the appearance of it being closed based on valve rod position.).
Kudos to our dealer, Lee Family Trailers in Windham Maine for delivery a clean, properly prepped trailer. They’ll fix the valve upon our return.
Fingers crossed things keep working. We really like the trailer.

So as it turns out our valve wasn’t defective, it was left open (thanks to the missing handle and extension).
So today I got the new handle from Lee, pushed in and closed the valve, dribbled out the gray water left in the drain pipe, hooked up the hose, and we are back in business.
Really enjoying this comfy camping thing.

[Derek]

My experience with my 26rbs has not been a good one.

[HickoryTom]

Don’t believe the BS about how good the warranty is. No matter what breaks the factory has to OK the fix. If they don’t think it’s a manufacturers defect they won’t cover it. If you have an awning problem, forget about it. We love our setup, we don’t love keystone.

[wiredgeorge]

Don’t believe the BS about how good the warranty is. No matter what breaks the factory has to OK the fix. If they don’t think it’s a manufacturers defect they won’t cover it. If you have an awning problem, forget about it. We love our setup, we don’t love keystone.

Making quite a splash on your first post Hickory! Welcome and hope we see a bit more perspective in the future. (this thread is 4-5 years old and was very much dormant)

[chuckster57]

Don’t believe the BS about how good the warranty is. No matter what breaks the factory has to OK the fix. If they don’t think it’s a manufacturers defect they won’t cover it. If you have an awning problem, forget about it. We love our setup, we don’t love keystone.

First off welcome to the forum :wlcm:

Keystone isn’t the only one that has that policy. Look at my signature, I have a few minutes of experience with this. The way the warranty issue is submitted and pics can determine the factory response. A good dealer with decent warranty claims writers can get just about anything under warranty covered…BTDT.

[sourdough]

Don’t believe the BS about how good the warranty is. No matter what breaks the factory has to OK the fix. If they don’t think it’s a manufacturers defect they won’t cover it. If you have an awning problem, forget about it. We love our setup, we don’t love keystone.

Welcome to the forum as well. Your a little off base on your reply to a 3 1/2 year old thread.

The warranty is only as good as the "manufacturers" warranty; that depends on who made it. The RV has many, many "things" on/in it warranted by the individual manufacturers. You seem to imply that if Keystone doesn't think it's a "manufacturers" defect they will deny the claim....on anything/everything - that is not the case. For the first 12 mos. they will be your "go between" if you choose to use them or you can work with the manufacturer of the specific product; from the frame, wheels/tires to the roof all have specific warranties issued by those companies and Keystone has nothing to do with them unless you are using them to interface with those companies.

If an owner has an issue and wants warranty to cover it your dealer will write the issue up and submit it to Keystone who then submits it to the OE manufacturer. At times Keystone and/or the dealer will take care of it on the spot, other times they will defer to the manufacturer. In the event there is some manufacturing defect made by Keystone that somehow damages or impairs a particular device to operate properly then Keystone will be responsible. Through all of this, when requesting warranty repair through a dealer, the DEALER is the key. Their analysis and ability to pinpoint the issue THEN write it up CLEARLY so that Keystone and the manufacturer understands what happened is extremely critical. Some dealers are very good at it, some try and some don't care. Just some backdrop to clear up some possible confusion.

As far as awning problems....my problem resulted in a new awning.....

[DaveAlb]

I have the large holes where the water pipes come through the floor. What is recommended to fill them? Expanding foam? Would like to try and keep mice from using those holes for travel lanes.

[Weldon]

I have the large holes where the water pipes come through the floor. What is recommended to fill them? Expanding foam? Would like to try and keep mice from using those holes for travel lanes.

I'm sure others will reply Dave, but expanding foam or steel wool should act as a barrier for mice (at least it would where I live in GA). It depends on how much space you have to fill in. Pics would be great if possible

[DaveAlb]

Thanks for the reply. Camper’s in storage, so have no available photos. I have large holes like shown by Steveo57 above. How well does the expanding foam do for the large gaping holes?

[notanlines]

Keep in mind that steel wool should not be used…..rusting badly . Bronze wool or stainless pads are preferable.

[DaveAlb]

Gracias! Any feel for how spray foam would work in a large, 2-3 inches, hole and if the mice stay away from it?

[wiredgeorge]

After a mouse ran up my feet to over my head while I was in my recliner, with my wife screaming like the world was going to end, I fill all those huge holes with the expanding foam. If you haven't used that stuff before, it REALLY expands and can make a bit of a mess if you are not aware.

[DaveAlb]

Sounds like it’s worth a shot. Thanks! 😺

[flybouy]

Buy rodent or pest resistant expanding foam.

[DaveAlb]

Good to know. I didn’t know such a thing existed. Thanks!