Keystone Fifth Wheels

[SkiSmuggs]

We will be going into our 7th season with our 2012 Cougar High Country and are starting to look at moving up. The Cougar has held up fairly well after replacing some standard components like suspension and shelves and has over 40K miles on it.
In looking at the Keystone 5th Wheel line, I see Avalanch, Fuzion and Raptor in the Premium line up and am not interested in the High Country. So what differentiates the 3 lines? I find the site slow and a little difficult to use, but the Avalanch 320 looks like just what I want. Is there a summary of the different lines somewhere? I am looking for something no more than 36' and 15K GVWR.
In Jayco, I like the Eagle and Grand Design either Reflection or lighter Solitudes for trips of 4-12 weeks.

[Mootana]

Fuzion and Raptor are toy hauler type. The Avalanche is the lower line for the Alpine brand.

Why do you not like the Montana High Country models?

Montana does make a 3121RL and 3120RL that fits what you are looking for.

Good luck and happy camping

Mootana

[SkiSmuggs]

Great, that eliminates the Fuzion and Raptor. I have a Cougar High Country and although it has held up well, it is poorly insulated to save weight so I assume the same is true of the Montana HC. I will take a look at the Montana and Alpine to compare to the Avalanch 320 which is the floor plan DW and I really like.

[CaptnJohn]

Great, that eliminates the Fuzion and Raptor. I have a Cougar High Country and although it has held up well, it is poorly insulated to save weight so I assume the same is true of the Montana HC. I will take a look at the Montana and Alpine to compare to the Avalanch 320 which is the floor plan DW and I really like.

Do not assume ~~ research.

[notanlines]

"It is poorly insulated to save weight." I'm sure the engineers sat around over a cup of coffee and said that they'll skimp on the insulation to save a few pounds.....

[Mootana]

Great, that eliminates the Fuzion and Raptor. I have a Cougar High Country and although it has held up well, it is poorly insulated to save weight so I assume the same is true of the Montana HC. I will take a look at the Montana and Alpine to compare to the Avalanch 320 which is the floor plan DW and I really like.

Dear SkiSmuggs
The High Country brand has went through a lot of changes since the original introduction. When Keystone introduced the "High Country" editions of Cougar and Montana the directive was to reduce weight. That has since changed. Cougar no longer offers "High Country".

When Montana discontinued the Mountainer brand, they combined the construction best practices with the High Country name. The directive is no longer to be designed around weight reduction. Insulation factors of the High Country is similar to Montana.

I hope this helps.

Mootana.

[gearhead]

I haven't had any insulation issues with our HC. I think it still has some weight saving build points though. I'm assuming the HC's still have a "sandwich" floor for weight saving. Ours has been diagnosed with a bowed floor on the curb side causing the slide to have trouble going in and out. I noticed they have gone to 8 lug hubs on new HC's.
We're looking to change sometime. Currently lean to GD Reflection, small Alpine, or Jayco Eagle; if we stay with a 5th wheel.

[goducks]

If you're happy with Keystone products then I'd go all in on Montana. Great floor plans and styling. Best bang for the buck in that class.

[mazboy]

If u are going to look at Montana and alpine, go with montana. Montana group has annual factory time in Sept at goshen...montana fits just about all issues there.
And over all good support with dealers....in my experience

[gearhead]

I believe the relationship between the factory and the dealerships is at least as important as the relationship between the customer and dealer. My perception, just based on internet reading and casual conversations among friends, is that Keystone's relationship with their dealers isn't the best. That is only in regard to ease of resolving customer repair issues. Other issues, I have no idea. And again, just anecdotal, but Grand Design seems to be more prompt and efficient to resolve issues.
My history with a Keystone mega size dealer with several "shops" in Texas has been painful.

[JRTJH]

Just my opinion, but from what I've seen around here, there are different relationships between dealerships and Keystone. Some have a "carte blanche" type of repair authorization, others, in the next town, have to spend hours documenting everything they claim under warranty.

I was talking to my dealer about that last summer. His thoughts on it are that it more or less, depends on "dealership greed". Just as each of us gets "wary" or "p!$$ed" when we go somewhere to buy something and they "nickel and dime us".

Some dealerships will claim significantly more time and materials than they use, hoping to "make a profit from Keystone" other dealerships are "straight up honest" with what they report (and charge) Keystone. It doesn't take very long for the area sales manager and the warranty department at Keystone to determine which dealerships to trust and pay what they report and which dealerships to watch closely and verify everything (AND I MEAN EVERYTHING) they request reimbursement for.

It goes further than payment. My dealer, who has an excellent relationship with Keystone, doesn't make "routine warranty repairs" wait for factory approval. He and the factory already know what will be approved so he just does that work and gets paid for it. Other dealerships, based on how they treat Keystone, have to request, fully document, send pictures and wait for approval for everthing they do....

So, that "major south Texas chain of dealerships" may well be on "Keystone's radar" as someone who's trying to cheat Keystone with fraudulent warranty repairs.....

Just as we "watch that employee who punches in late and corrects his time card, Keystone watches dealerships that "fudge the warranty repairs"......

I see examples of that on the forum "all the time".... One member will say, "I took my trailer to the dealer with a leaking window and he fixed it while I waited" and another member will say, "I took my trailer to the dealer with a leaking window and it's been there 3 months and he won't return my calls"..... Is that dealer "really that busy" or is he on Keystone's radar and waiting for the area sales manager to verify the leak before approving the repair ????

[gearhead]

Well said John. I'm thinking my dealer and Keystone need some professional relationship counseling.

[chuckster57]

It’s getting harder by the week even for the “honest” dealerships to get reimbursed for time spent. Our warranty clerk tells me on a daily basis about the denials, even with photos and stories.

[dcg9381]

My perception, just based on internet reading and casual conversations among friends, is that Keystone's relationship with their dealers isn't the best. That is only in regard to ease of resolving customer repair issues. Other issues, I have no idea. And again, just anecdotal, but Grand Design seems to be more prompt and efficient to resolve issues.

I agree with this substantially... Note, GD was purchased by Winnie, so things may change.

Grand Design will give you a lot more flexibility for who you can use with on the road repairs. Their forum is actively monitored, they care very much about their repair reputation.

That being said, IMHO - you'll pay more (compared to Keystone) for the better support and longer warranty term. Materials and construction is substantially the same across most brands. GD does have some innovative productions, like a toy hauler with a rear master bedroom over a 3/4 size garage...

[gearhead]

My complicating issue is my mega dealer..they are the only game in town. Or drive to Dallas, San Antonio, Corpus Christi, or Louisiana.
We're keeping our eye on pplmotorhomes.com on how a swap for a super clean used one could work. Probably a ways down the road.

[dcg9381]

I've been to PPL quite a bit. They're all consignment and definitely have some serious poop on the lot. So before you make that drive, contact a sales person and have him "walk it" for you. Units there with water itrusion so so obvious marked in "very good" shape.

They also make money via the inspection process, if I recall right...

The units are walked frequently (especially on weekends) - so getting one with fully charged batteries ready to PDI required a purchase contract and some other guarantees.


Not saying you can't get a deal there - that's not true - but just be ready to walk...

[SkiSmuggs]

I am lucky to have an excellent Keystone dealer in Pete's RV. Is there much difference between Montana and Alpine? It's been a while since I looked at them. I remember the Montana 3120RL being the floor plan I liked with weights being around the limit of my F350 SRW.
I checked again and don't care for the floor plans of the 35' and under Alpines. They have the kink in the neck TV viewing that I am over. So in the Keystone line, just the Montana 3120RL at 35' and Avalanche 320RS that I like is over my desired 35' limit by a foot, but not a show stopper.

[gearhead]

For some reason I always thought the Alpine was a cut above the Montana. Don't know where I got that though.

[BSHGTO]

For some reason I always thought the Alpine was a cut above the Montana. Don't know where I got that though.

Probably from he people that own them. Myrtle Beach 2017 Alpine owner next door talked his unit up and called my High country a entry level 5th wheel.

[NorskeBob]

We have been enjoying our 2017 Avalanche 320RS. Has the layout we like and plenty of storage. First time with a 6 point leveling system and like it. Has worked well for long time stays - up to 2 months.

[ChuckS]

In 2014 we looked at fifth wheels again..had been shopping for two years. One of our dealers had started carrying the Alpine and we had been looking at Montana and Jayco previously.. we opted for the 3010RE Alpine, liked the interior, 6 point all hyd level up and all hydraulic slide.. also, at that time Montana did not have the heat pump AC unit in the ones we’d seen..

That being said where had ours for four seasons.. upgraded the stock TK E rated tires to a 14 ply G rated tire and all teal valve stems.. upgraded the stock two 12 volt 24 group to 6 volt golf cart batteries..

The unit has served us well, no repairs requiring dealer work.. Tows well beh8nd my 3/4 ton 4x4 club cab duramax, no issues in mountainous travel, and decent mpg towing.. I’d buy another Alpine without hesitation.. But that’s me

And I still like the looks of the Montana.. especially s9me of the new paint schemes.

[SkiSmuggs]

I am really starting to like the Avalanche 320RS. It is almost 1000 lbs lighter than the Montana 3120RL, 3" less tall with an aerodynamic front cap, yet still a wide body for more room inside. It appears that some appliances may be at a lower level (Montana has ignition oven), but we have a countertop convection oven we prefer anyway. The Max Turn front cap should also keep us from cab contact in our SB F350, especially with the Andersen Ultimate hitch. Should be about 1 MPG better while towing.

[SkiSmuggs]

The more I look, the better value the Avalanche 320rs looks. The only thing I don't like are the cheesy shades in the great room 360 view, but they can be replaced. RV Trader shows about a $25K difference between the Avalanche and the GD Solitude 310GK. Both use 10" drop frames.

[dcg9381]

RV Trader shows about a $25K difference between the Avalanche and the GD Solitude 310GK.

Assume that it's going to be 75% or so of that difference, which is still significant. GD definitely costs more. IMHO, you're paying for a different service experience and a totally different support model, which may or may not be worth it..

[goducks]

Assume that it's going to be 75% or so of that difference, which is still significant. GD definitely costs more. IMHO, you're paying for a different service experience and a totally different support model, which may or may not be worth it..
No support is worth $25K.

[punkinv]

Hi,
I'm curious as to what you decided. Wife and I are considering this model. Prices seem to be in the mid-45k range, which is a bit higher than we want to spend, but it seems to have more features compared to other Keystone products (Laredo, Cougar, Sprinter). Love the idea of hydraulics vs. electric moving parts, and must have a king bed with big fridge. Does anyone know how much wiggle room in general that dealers have on the prices? We see a lot of $73k reduced to $48k, etc., but am wondering if they can go even lower?
Any advice is welcome. Thanks!

[dcg9381]

No support is worth $25K.


That's MSRP to MSRP, so it's going to be 60-75% of that amount.
Let's just call it $16k.

My RV spent almost a year in the shop, most of it sitting around dealer, no support for stuff on cross country trips, had 2 new roofs within the first 1.5 years. Keystone would had it in dealer limbo forever until we hired someone (legal) to move the issue along. Would I have paid $16k to avoid all that AND get 100% more warranty?

Maybe...

I am convinced that GD would have substantially decreased the amount of time that the RV was out of service and would have seriously decreased the legal/hassle factor required to have the RV restored to "like new" condition on warranty work.


Note, I don't think my case is typical. And I knew I was rolling the dice to get more RV for less money when I bought it...

[JRTJH]

Every (and I mean EVERY) RV company has problems and every (again EVERY) RV company falls short on some of their warranty repairs.

Grand Designs is no different than Keystone, Airstream, Winnebago, Forest River or "YaDaYada RV company".....

Here's just a couple of comments from the GD forum. They may sound familiar to anyone who has been reading posts on this forum for the past year:

"...our experience with this unit has been very disappointing. We have taken it out on 5 trips this summer and something quit working on every trip. On two of our last three trips we had to terminate the trip prematurely because of breakdowns...We are now worried that we have purchased a poor quality RV. Our salesman spoke with their GD representative, who recommended that we contact GD Customer Service. So, I did that, and the fellow I talked with didn't seem concerned at all about the problems"...

"My Reflection 5th wheel is nothing but problems also it's one thing after another. Ours is a 2014- 293 RES, one of the first built. I'm really disappointed in it. Don't think we're keeping it much longer, looking at other brands now but no one wants to give a fair trade price. I'll take a beating but just don't have any confidence in GD anymore. This is our fifth RV and never had trouble like this before, going back to Keystone or Jayco..."

"Grand Design quality? With less than two years in mine...failed rear axle 5 months out of warranty, $3000 repair. Failed awning motor covered under warranty. Air conditioner pours condensation into living area, modified by dealer per Grand Design instructions, still pours condensation into living area"...

"My dealer, McClain's RV in Denton Texas very displeasing. I scheduled my appointment six weeks ahead of time so I could beat the summer rush. When I dropped it off they said they should have it about two weeks. I figured that meant at least three and maybe even four weeks. No problem I allowed for a delay. Seven weeks later"...

I could keep cutting and pasting "till the cows come home" but I think you get the idea that people "on the other side of the fence" are not in greener grass than we are.......

[dcg9381]

John,
I don't disagree that RVs all (basically) manufactured in the same manner will have similar quality problems. That is, I do NOT think GD is necessarily a better BUILT RV.

Here are some differences, however:

* GD will authorize an "on the road" repair from a non-GD repair facility.
* They have a history of paying for independent service calls where conditions call for it.
* GD directly monitors their forum and company reps do respond.
* I've never seen any indication of GD pushing for a repair that results in loss in value, such as "half" of a roof replacement.
* Their warranty is superior, 2 years, not 1.
* You can get direct factory support. GD will ship end owners parts. No "go through a dealer". Jayco is like this too.

I agree with you that both brands will have some issues and in no way mean that there are fewer problems with GD. The consumer report models sure seem to be pretty different.

[SkiSmuggs]

Hi,
I'm curious as to what you decided. Wife and I are considering this model. Prices seem to be in the mid-45k range, which is a bit higher than we want to spend, but it seems to have more features compared to other Keystone products (Laredo, Cougar, Sprinter). Love the idea of hydraulics vs. electric moving parts, and must have a king bed with big fridge. Does anyone know how much wiggle room in general that dealers have on the prices? We see a lot of $73k reduced to $48k, etc., but am wondering if they can go even lower?
Any advice is welcome. Thanks!

A new fiver is still a couple of years away for us, but the Avalanche is in the winner circle for now. I like the cross between full and mid-profile and that is wide body.