Fifth Wheel payload for a 2500 Ram Diesel

[mpgtow]

Hi,
Currently considering trading or selling my Keystone Laredo 240MK trailer for a fifth wheel "upgrade" in order to obtain additional seating space inside. I would like to keep the fifth wheel 30' or shorter.
Will the Cougar half ton 25RES be a good choice for weight?
I have a stock Ram 2500 (2015) Short bed with Diesel Cummins. Pulls the current trailer like a dream. And, likely no problem whatsoever pulling the fifth wheel (towing capacity listed at 17,000+ lbs.) however the Payload available is approx. 2,200 lbs. I do not have the hitch yet nor is the Ram prepped for a fifth wheel hitch.
2018 - 25RES states:
Hitch Weight = 1,610 lbs.
Shipping Weight = 7540
Carry Weight = 2460

Thoughts from those experienced members.... on payload issues?
Also looking at the new Grand Design model 230RL as another alternative, which starts at 1,200 lbs pin weight.

Thanks, Rob

[chuckster57]

Pin weight will be without propane and battery(s). Sliding hitch will be about 200 pounds. Then start loading the basement, front compartment and you’ll probably be over. Is that ok?

That’s where it seems these threads go somewhat sideways with arguments on both sides. “Yeah”, “just add air bags”, “your 3/4 ton is the same thing as a 1 ton, just a different sticker”...etc.

YOU have to decide if your ok with that.

:popcorn::popcorn:

[mpgtow]

Chuckster,
Thanks for the info. Yes, that's what I'm considering... I tend to be on the safer side but cant seem to find much in a lower hitch weight. Grand Design may be the only choice. Upgrading the tow vehicle is out of the question.
However its kind of a shame and misleading that a " half ton fifth wheel cannot be easily matched with a 3/4 ton tow vehicle...!

[5th_Wheelin]

I have your truck pulling a heavier 5th wheel. Yes, I'm at max capacity. That being said, I don't have any issues with my setup.

[ChuckS]

Honestly I would have no problem with the fifth wheel you are looking at based on your diesel truck....

https://www.ramtrucks.com/assets/towing_guide/pdf/2015_ram_2500_towing_charts.pdf



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[mpgtow]

I have your truck pulling a heavier 5th wheel. Yes, I'm at max capacity. That being said, I don't have any issues with my setup.

5thWheelin,

Do you know what your actual payload sticker says? Just curious...
Thanks, Rob

[mpgtow]

Thanks, ChuckS,

Yes, these are Specs. I have the 2500 4x4 with Auto Trans.,
Big Horn with some additional options.
Payload sticker on my vehicle leaves me 2,200 lbs.

6.7L CUMMINS DIESEL
A6 68RFE
3.42
10,000
2,360 VS. actual 2,200 sticker on my truck
7,640
4,724
2,916
5,750
6,000
25,300
17,180

[mpgtow]

Interesting Note in Footnotes from the spec page link per above:

5. Trailer Weight Rating and Tow Vehicle Trailering Weight are calculated as specified in SAE J2807. Passenger Weight = 300 lb Options Weight = 100 lb Trailering Equipment Weight: 75 lb for Conventional Hitch, 70 lb for Gooseneck and 250 lb for 5th Wheel.

Does this mean these weights are already included in the payload calculations?

[JRTJH]

I tow a XLite 27RKS with my diesel F250. I am at max payload on most trips and have had no problems with towing performance.

That said, you might want to look at some larger (longer) fifth wheels. The 25RES is 29' long with an empty pin weight of 1405 while the 27RKS is 31' long with an empty pin weight of 1355. The 26RLS is almost 30' long with a pin weight of 1270 pounds. While there is some difference in floorplan that would account for the pin weight differences, often times a specific model will have the axles shifted forward (lighter pin weight) or shifted toward the rear (heavier pin weight) and that model "stands out from the rest of the line" as having heavier pin weights than other similar length or even longer models in the same brand. That's sort of what you're seeing with the 25RES.

Shop around and you'll find several "half ton fifth wheels" that will work, some even longer than your selection with pin weights that may give you lighter towing weights than you're anticipating.

It's difficult to stay under the "yellow sticker payload" with a diesel 3/4 ton truck. Arguments (and it's often not a discussion but an argument) on both sides tend to become heated as members are passionate about their point of view. Good luck with your shopping and with your selection of your new fifth wheel.

[sourdough]

I'll just throw in my 2 cents (maybe 10:o). First, I appreciate you thinking about this issue and putting the numbers to it trying to make a prudent choice. I've got a 3/4 ton HD truck with a payload of almost 3200 lbs. I won't buy a 5th wheel and pull it with this truck. Why?

A 5th wheel with just a gvw (and loaded to it) of 10k lbs. will have a pin weight over 2000 lbs; probably more. More than most 3/4 ton diesel payloads. I have a gas engine hence the higher payload. Even my truck would have barely enough payload for us and my stuff if I tried to pull a 10k fiver. I don't want to do that.

My little brother just came to see me in FL with his new Ford F250 King Ranch diesel and new Rockwood 5th with a 10k gvw. Truck pulls the trailer like it's not there. Payload? Not so much. He hasn't been over a scale but I'm sure he is tight on payload. He carries very little in the trailer because he only camps on weekends; this was his first long trip in any of his RVs - he is very happy. If you use it a lot, as we do, you will end up with a trailer FULL of stuff to make it thru long stays - FAR more than he carries:)

What's my point? IMO a 3/4 ton is marginal for any 5th wheel simply due to the pin weights. Will they pull them? Like a dream. If/when I decide a fiver would work for us I will go with a one ton. If stuck with a 3/4 ton as you seem to be, I would definitely be looking at the lighter pin weight models. The truck will pull a 5th wheel just fine, the weights are the only question.

It all goes back to your statement about safety. Only you can determine how important that is to you; how close you want to be to the max limits; what limits you believe are real or "gubmint" imposed, family safety etc. A scale is a wonderful place to start to let you know where you stand.

As I said, as a fellow RVer and traveler I appreciate your effort to work through this sometimes complex issue. Good luck to you and your choice. Happy travels.

[chuckster57]

Darn...ran out of popcorn, gotta pop some more
:popcorn::popcorn:

[sourdough]

Darn...ran out of popcorn, gotta pop some more
:popcorn::popcorn:


Me too! :D Between watching these posts and John Wayne in the "Alamo" I've already ran through my normal bowl full.....:popcorn:

[chuckster57]

I gotta stop.. need to keep room for the chicken&dumplins in the pot cooking.

[Frank G]

:):):):popcorn:

[Harleydodge]

:):):):popcorn:
Hey Frank...You left your coffee on the running board:lol:

:popcorn:

[Frank G]

Hey Frank...You left your coffee on the running board:lol:

:popcorn:

It was either the coffee or the camera. It was all good.

Final destination for the winter.

[Canonman]

Hi,
Currently considering trading or selling my Keystone Laredo 240MK trailer for a fifth wheel "upgrade" in order to obtain additional seating space inside. I would like to keep the fifth wheel 30' or shorter.
Will the Cougar half ton 25RES be a good choice for weight?
I have a stock Ram 2500 (2015) Short bed with Diesel Cummins. Pulls the current trailer like a dream. And, likely no problem whatsoever pulling the fifth wheel (towing capacity listed at 17,000+ lbs.) however the Payload available is approx. 2,200 lbs. I do not have the hitch yet nor is the Ram prepped for a fifth wheel hitch.
2018 - 25RES states:
Hitch Weight = 1,610 lbs.
Shipping Weight = 7540
Carry Weight = 2460



Thoughts from those experienced members.... on payload issues?
Also looking at the new Grand Design model 230RL as another alternative, which starts at 1,200 lbs pin weight.

Thanks, Rob

Our set up is very similar to yours. Short answer; yes, you will be close to (maybe slightly over) the max payload with a full load in the 5er. That said I have never noticed any issue pulling, stopping or feeling in any way unsafe with our outfit. Consider an Anderson 5th wheel hitch to save weight. Keep your basement load as light as reasonably possible and the load in the truck to a minimum. Go to the scales and get your weights so you know the real numbers.
You are asking for real world answers from folks pulling a mid-size 5th wheel with a Ram 2500 and 6.7 Cummins diesel.
IMHO and 20k miles experience I'd say you'd be just fine.

[KHBama]

Hi,
Currently considering trading or selling my Keystone Laredo 240MK trailer for a fifth wheel "upgrade" in order to obtain additional seating space inside. I would like to keep the fifth wheel 30' or shorter.
Will the Cougar half ton 25RES be a good choice for weight?
I have a stock Ram 2500 (2015) Short bed with Diesel Cummins. Pulls the current trailer like a dream. And, likely no problem whatsoever pulling the fifth wheel (towing capacity listed at 17,000+ lbs.) however the Payload available is approx. 2,200 lbs. I do not have the hitch yet nor is the Ram prepped for a fifth wheel hitch.
2018 - 25RES states:
Hitch Weight = 1,610 lbs.
Shipping Weight = 7540
Carry Weight = 2460

Thoughts from those experienced members.... on payload issues?
Also looking at the new Grand Design model 230RL as another alternative, which starts at 1,200 lbs pin weight.

Thanks, Rob

I have a similar 5th wheel about the same weight pulling with my 2500 5.7 hemi. I have air bags but honestly don’t need them. Of course your truck will have no problem pulling it or stopping it but technically you will be over payload. I was over about 600lbs fully loaded last trip with family, dog etc, but well under the combined weight rating and axle ratings. You’ll be fine

[DucBill]

I have a similar 5th wheel about the same weight pulling with my 2500 5.7 hemi. I have air bags but honestly don’t need them. Of course your truck will have no problem pulling it or stopping it but technically you will be over payload. I was over about 600lbs fully loaded last trip with family, dog etc, but well under the combined weight rating and axle ratings. You’ll be fineCanonman your smart to ask before you upgrade and like was said previously only you can make the decision re safety on weights and ratings. I would strongly recommend getting actual pin wt. for the unit(s) your looking at and take into consideration the location and capacity of holding tank(s) as they commonly are located on underbody near the pin on 5th wheel trlrs. and can add up signifacantly especially if boondocking and unable to empty before traveling, times like this are when airbags or other overload devices on TV are essential for maintaining stock (safe) ride height. Like you I had a 3/4 t diesel 4x4 crew cabed TV which pulled the 35' light wt. (1500#pin12k#gvwr) 5er TH fine with addition of airbags on TV. Then I swapped that 5er for 38' TH with slides which was supposed to have 2200# pin which turned out to actually have a 3k# pin wt. when wet which pushed me out of rawr by and gvrw.The TV pulled the TH up and down a 9 mile 10% grade in Sierras to favorite 8k elevation camp site without issues (thank God for speed brakes and tow haul mode).
Needless to say a new 1t drw diesel double cab TV solved the over weight problem but created a host of others mainly in maneuverability, parking and DW complaining about not needing a new $60k truck (compromises).
Another consideration is to keep your fifth wheel hitch weight to a minimum, I have used a popular 40# 5th to gooseneck hitch which might be a solution for you especially since your cargo weight capacity is low, this solution also saves worn out backs like mine when r&ring hitch. Warning some trlr frame mnfg. warranties might be effected by GN hitch. Good luck with your decision.
Happy camping Canonman.

Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk

[Tinner12002]

You might also check your GVWR on your truck. Load it up as you think you'd be in camping mode and weigh it, then check that against your GVWR, that should also give you a good idea how much weight you can carry by comparing that to your payload rating. As far as hitches, I think pullrite superlight makes a lightweight 64lbs hitch but isn't a slider, its rated for 20K.

[rhagfo]

Hi,
Currently considering trading or selling my Keystone Laredo 240MK trailer for a fifth wheel "upgrade" in order to obtain additional seating space inside. I would like to keep the fifth wheel 30' or shorter.
Will the Cougar half ton 25RES be a good choice for weight?
I have a stock Ram 2500 (2015) Short bed with Diesel Cummins. Pulls the current trailer like a dream. And, likely no problem whatsoever pulling the fifth wheel (towing capacity listed at 17,000+ lbs.) however the Payload available is approx. 2,200 lbs. I do not have the hitch yet nor is the Ram prepped for a fifth wheel hitch.
2018 - 25RES states:
Hitch Weight = 1,610 lbs.
Shipping Weight = 7540
Carry Weight = 2460

Thoughts from those experienced members.... on payload issues?
Also looking at the new Grand Design model 230RL as another alternative, which starts at 1,200 lbs pin weight.

Thanks, Rob
Rob, are your figures off of a unit on a dealers lot? This is what I find for a 25RES X-tralight.

Specs for 25RES
Shipping Weight 7,035#
Carrying Capacity 2,965#
Hitch 1,405#
Length 28' 11"
Height 11' 11"

Then there is the Half Ton 25RES
Specs for 25RES
Shipping Weight 7,540#
Carrying Capacity 2,460#
Hitch 1,610#
Length 29' 7"
Height 11' 8"

Most interesting.
You have gotten some pretty good advice here so far, you are on the edge of your payload. You didn't mention family size, just your and DW, or do you travel with children?
Towing over your TV 10,000# GVWR, will not break your TV, as long as you stay within Tire and Wheel ratings. The decision to do this is really yours, and could carry legal ramifications if involved in an accident.
That disclaimer stated we travel in a 2005 Keystone Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS.
Specs for 293 FWSLS
Dry weight 9,820#
GVWR 12,360#
Pin Wet 2,400#
Length 32'
Height 13'

TV 2001 Ram 2500 CTD with tow and Camper package.
https://i.imgur.com/tjwcYxx.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zTOMjmb.jpg

To the safety statements and concerns, we tow both Interstates and two lane state highways, Interstates are nice as towing at 60 to 65 is this engine and rear axles sweet spot. That said this rig is happy doing 55 to 60 on the two lane state highways, like these below. It is all up to your comfort level.

https://i.imgur.com/hrRsaeT.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/qoYeftJ.jpg

Once again it is your responsibility to make a good decision based on your comfort level.

[KHBama]

Here is a look at mine with no air in the airbags. Get hardly any squat at all. My Laredo had a 1465# dry pin weight, it’s closer to 1900# loaded up. Honestly
Truck tows better than our 6500# travel trailer, don’t have a lot mountains and hills here in Central Alabama though. Think you will enjoy the 5er and will be fine

[mpgtow]

Hmmm............ just reviewed the actual payload sticker. Appears as if I did not recall correctly.

Actual payload is 2,022 lbs.

15079

[mpgtow]

Vin Sticker with Info Specs
Truck Photo


15080
15083

[mpgtow]

Russ, thanks for the update on the 25RES models. Just reviewed carefully. Yes, seems to be the XLite is possibly discontinued ? and replaced by the half ton for 2018 year listing. The Xlite 25RES says stock only and appears to be 2017 and prior only. Very confusing for them to have the same 25RES model number. I certainly did not realize there were two offerings with same number. Clearly the weights of hitch pin are different as well as other specifications!

1,610 VS. 1,405 hitch pin weight

15084

15085

[mpgtow]

Here is a look at mine with no air in the airbags. Get hardly any squat at all. My Laredo had a 1465# dry pin weight, it’s closer to 1900# loaded up. Honestly
Truck tows better than our 6500# travel trailer, don’t have a lot mountains and hills here in Central Alabama though. Think you will enjoy the 5er and will be fine

Thanks! Do you happen to know what your payload sticker on the door jamb states?

[KHBama]

Thanks! Do you happen to know what your payload sticker on the door jamb states?

2249# payload

[darrylwt]

I was going to buy a 3/4 ton short bed when I was looking for a new trailer from a pull to a 5th wheel, but my son in law told me he went thru it all with his 5th wheel and told me to get a 1 ton long bed and don't miss around and now I am sure glad I did with all the talk about pay load and stuff.

[ctbruce]

Russ, thanks for the update on the 25RES models. Just reviewed carefully. Yes, seems to be the XLite is possibly discontinued ? and replaced by the half ton for 2018 year listing. The Xlite 25RES says stock only and appears to be 2017 and prior only. Very confusing for them to have the same 25RES model number. I certainly did not realize there were two offerings with same number. Clearly the weights of hitch pin are different as well as other specifications!

1,610 VS. 1,405 hitch pin weight

15084

15085They gave the same numbers because the designation half-ton towable replaced the designation X-tralite. For all intents and purposes they are the same basically. That is why the numbers are the same.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

[rhagfo]

Chuckster,
Thanks for the info. Yes, that's what I'm considering... I tend to be on the safer side but cant seem to find much in a lower hitch weight. Grand Design may be the only choice. Upgrading the tow vehicle is out of the question.
However its kind of a shame and misleading that a " half ton fifth wheel cannot be easily matched with a 3/4 ton tow vehicle...!

I was going to buy a 3/4 ton short bed when I was looking for a new trailer from a pull to a 5th wheel, but my son in law told me he went thru it all with his 5th wheel and told me to get a 1 ton long bed and don't miss around and now I am sure glad I did with all the talk about pay load and stuff.

Yes, if buying a new TV, then a 350/3500 SRW is a better choice if only for the VIN sticker with the higher GVWR, in reality the differences between the 250/2500 and 350/3500 SRW are minimal.

[KHBama]

Yes, if buying a new TV, then a 350/3500 SRW is a better choice if only for the VIN sticker with the higher GVWR, in reality the differences between the 250/2500 and 350/3500 SRW are minimal.

What’s funny, I have Ram 2500 5.7 but the 2500 with the 6.4(same rear HD coils) has 1000 more payload. No one on the Ram forums has been able to explain that one. Same truck with different engine

[JRTJH]

What’s funny, I have Ram 2500 5.7 but the 2500 with the 6.4(same rear HD coils) has 1000 more payload. No one on the Ram forums has been able to explain that one. Same truck with different engine

Is it the same model, same cab configuration, same 4x2/4x4 equipment and same trim level?

On the Ford models, there is almost 800 pounds difference between the payload on the XL and the Platinum models. What that means is the trucks weigh the same, the 10,000 GVW is the limiting factor, but there is 800 pounds of "optional luxury" in the platinum that isn't installed in the XL model. Results give the XL 800 pounds more payload that is "eaten by optional equipment" in the more expensive model.

So, if your truck is a Laramie or big horn and the one with less payload is a tradesman, that may be what you're seeing.

The only other possibility I can see is the yellow sticker is wrong. Are the VIN's the same on the windshield and the sticker? if so, I'd ask Chrysler to check into it next time you're in for service.

[KHBama]

Is it the same model, same cab configuration, same 4x2/4x4 equipment and same trim level?

On the Ford models, there is almost 800 pounds difference between the payload on the XL and the Platinum models. What that means is the trucks weigh the same, the 10,000 GVW is the limiting factor, but there is 800 pounds of "optional luxury" in the platinum that isn't installed in the XL model. Results give the XL 800 pounds more payload that is "eaten by optional equipment" in the more expensive model.

So, if your truck is a tradesman and the one with less payload is a Laramie or a big horn, that may be what you're seeing.

The only other possibility I can see is the yellow sticker is wrong. Are the VIN's the same on the windshield and the sticker? if so, I'd ask Chrysler to check into it next time you're in for service.


Yep, comparing my SLT 4x4 to SLT 4x4 6.4. GVWR is listed 10,000lbs for the 6.4, but curb weight and suspension all the same.(GVWR for 5.7 is 9,000lbs). Has a lot of people baffled

[JRTJH]

The GVW is a factory assigned number. On F250's customers can order a GVW of 9900 or 10000. On F350's a customer can order a GVW of 9900, 10000, 10500, 11000 11400 or 11500. The truck weight is exactly the same, but obviously the payload, which is the result of the difference in weight and GVW, will change depending on what the customer ordered or the dealer specified. From what I can tell, it's all a "game" about specifying trucks to meet state registration requirements and insurance requirements. It's about money, not performance in almost every situation. But, it happens......

So, if you have access to the build sheet on your truck, you might find a code for a GVW special order that specified the factory reduce the GVW ???? Otherwise, I'm baffled too......

[KHBama]

That’s why it’s so hard for me to take payload numbers serious anymore, it’s all a marketing tool imo. Pay much more attention to the axle ratings and tire ratings. Sorry didn’t mean to hijack this thread, I hope the OP gets the info he needs.

[rhagfo]

That’s why it’s so hard for me to take payload numbers serious anymore, it’s all a marketing tool imo. Pay much more attention to the axle ratings and tire ratings. Sorry didn’t mean to hijack this thread, I hope the OP gets the info he needs.

Not a hijack, it is related the only real difference might be an extra overload spring, and the number on the VIN and Payload sticker.

[Gegrad]

The GVW is a factory assigned number. On F250's customers can order a GVW of 9900 or 10000. On F350's a customer can order a GVW of 9900, 10000, 10500, 11000 11400 or 11500. The truck weight is exactly the same, but obviously the payload, which is the result of the difference in weight and GVW, will change depending on what the customer ordered or the dealer specified. From what I can tell, it's all a "game" about specifying trucks to meet state registration requirements and insurance requirements. It's about money, not performance in almost every situation.

So if the weights are the exact same and it is just a game, then the people who have the lower GVW weight trucks going over by 1000 lbs aren't really dangerous (since it could just have easily been 11500 instead of 9900); they are just "illegal" according to stickers. From a safety standpoint as far as the structural components of the truck there is literally nothing to be worried about.

Edited This kind of manufacturer BS is exactly why people don't worry about going over the payload by a few hundred lbs.

[Frank G]

So if the weights are the exact same and it is just a game, then the people who have the lower GVW weight trucks going over by 1000 lbs aren't really dangerous (since it could just have easily been 11500 instead of 9900); they are just "illegal" according to stickers. From a safety standpoint as far as the structural components of the truck there is literally nothing to be worried about.

Edited This kind of manufacturer BS is exactly why people don't worry about going over the payload by a few hundred lbs.

Our fine federal government made them do it!:facepalm:

[JRTJH]

So if the weights are the exact same and it is just a game, then the people who have the lower GVW weight trucks going over by 1000 lbs aren't really dangerous (since it could just have easily been 11500 instead of 9900); they are just "illegal" according to stickers. From a safety standpoint as far as the structural components of the truck there is literally nothing to be worried about.

Edited This kind of manufacturer BS is exactly why people don't worry about going over the payload by a few hundred lbs.

You're sort of correct. At least the way I understand vehicle registration. You order a truck (or buy a truck) with a specific weight rating. You pay (in some states) for a license to operate that truck "at or below" the rating you buy the license for. So, if you buy a 10K F350, in many places (not all) you pay for the right to put 10K on the roads. If you put 11K on the roads, you violate your license with the state (not with the vehicle manufacturer). If you get caught or are involved in an accident, you MAY (not will) have to answer in court for why you were over the weight you were bought a license for. If you caused the accident, it's likely an attorney for the injured will be contacting you. If the vehicle manufacturer gets involved, they may (again, not will) void your vehicle warranty based on what you ordered and because you overloaded the vehicle, even though it can be (but wasn't) rated to weigh up to 11,500 pounds.

That's why (I believe) the owner's manuals for all three major truck manufacturers say something like, "Do not load the vehicle heavier than the GVW, do not load over the payload AND do not exceed the GAWR (front or rear). They "cover their butt" in all the categories, what you order, what you license it for and what you load it with.

Is it a "game" ??? No, it's more the state of CYA from an engineering, a legal and a state regulation/licensing perspective. Sure makes for a lot of understanding or more likely, misunderstandings when someone "skims the first line in the loading section of an owner's manual or uses what they read somewhere in a brochure or in an old owner's manual from 1966.

Another way to look at it is like buying a small game hunting license. It gives you the right to carry a rifle in the woods, to shoot "small game" as allowed by the state, but it doesn't give you the right to shoot a deer. Same with the registration and licensing/certifications on the truck. The truck may carry the load perfectly well (just like that rifle will kill any large game in North America) but without the license and certification to do so, you can't use the capacity "legally"

That's my understanding of how it works. Right or wrong, and YMMV.

ADDED: After posting this, I thought about another factor that wasn't covered in Gegrad's question or in my response. While you can order a F250 in two GVW's and you can order an F350 in 5 or 6 different GVW's, there may be some physical differences in what goes into the truck suspension based on the package ordered. There are two or three different "computer selected spring upgrades" for both the front and rear suspension and there are two different overload spring configurations. There may be a significant "spring upgrade" used in an F350 with a 10K GVW and the same truck with a 11,500 GVW. I don't know that for sure, but I do know that selecting the camper package, the snowplow package or the HD suspension package, as explained in the order manual, all have "upgraded springs selected by computer". Does that mean they're all the same or that some are heavier than others? I just don't know...... So, it may not "be a game" of numbers on paper but there may also be some physical differences in what's installed with each GVW change..... MAY BE, I don't know what is put with what package.

[Ilovecampfires!]

Thank you John.

[Gegrad]

Thanks for the explanation John!

[mpgtow]

Thank you to all who contributed.
I'm not sure what I will do :ermm:! Lots of great information.

Currently live 1 hour south of Tampa, FL so I'm headed to the super large RV show next weekend. All the manufacturers will be there- however I wont ask too many questions as the reps don't always know much about the actual towing aspect :-)

I started the thread. But, here's my hijacked photos. If I get a fifth wheel and install a hitch, I will certainly miss my home-made 3/4 extension pull out slide for the enclosed pick up bed. What's special is there are no bolts holding it down anywhere and it always stays in place. No holes drilled in the truck bed. There are 4 mini wood boxes wedged around the wheel wells and clevis pinned to the slide mechanism. Basically the plywood slides on aluminum rails & approx. 20 round ball bearings (purchased from Harbor Freight) below. Also, in photo(s) you will see an old, cut-up weathertech mat stapled down for a portion of the slide. Piece of 2" wide black webbing serves as the pull handle. This slide is very well traveled and still serves quite well- from hauling Honda generators to Costco runs!
15091
15092

[Tinner12002]

So if the weights are the exact same and it is just a game, then the people who have the lower GVW weight trucks going over by 1000 lbs aren't really dangerous (since it could just have easily been 11500 instead of 9900); they are just "illegal" according to stickers. From a safety standpoint as far as the structural components of the truck there is literally nothing to be worried about.

Edited This kind of manufacturer BS is exactly why people don't worry about going over the payload by a few hundred lbs.

If the payload ratings are different then it could very well be a different spring pack rating which could be pretty hard to tell just by looking. I'm just really amazed at all the manufacturer professionals that are quick to tell someone its ok to exceed their truck ratings...just don't get it. Like telling someone its ok to do what ever you want or feel comfy with! If your truck will pull it, get out there and go!
:banghead:

[rhagfo]

What’s funny, I have Ram 2500 5.7 but the 2500 with the 6.4(same rear HD coils) has 1000 more payload. No one on the Ram forums has been able to explain that one. Same truck with different engine

You might try this site, put in your VIN and you will get the factory build sheet. It might have the necessary information why you have a 9,000# GVWR and not a 10,000# GVWR.

https://chrysler.custhelp.com/app/chrysler/eqlisting_detail

[kfxgreenie]

If the payload ratings are different then it could very well be a different spring pack rating which could be pretty hard to tell just by looking. I'm just really amazed at all the manufacturer professionals that are quick to tell someone its ok to exceed their truck ratings...just don't get it. Like telling someone its ok to do what ever you want or feel comfy with! If your truck will pull it, get out there and go!
:banghead:

Someone from RAM should be able to tell if he has a different Coil Spring reducing his GVWR to 9000. Then if so inclined he could personally take a VIN from a 6.4 truck with the 10,000 GVWR and heavier spring, order those springs install them at his own risk, and at least from a safety standpoint be safer. If RAM won't help he would be best taking the VIN's of his truck and a VIN with a 6.4 truck and 10,000 GVWR and taking it to a competent dealer with a competent parts department and have them look up both VINs and see if there is a difference in the part #'s of the coils.

[rhagfo]

Someone from RAM should be able to tell if he has a different Coil Spring reducing his GVWR to 9000. Then if so inclined he could personally take a VIN from a 6.4 truck with the 10,000 GVWR and heavier spring, order those springs install them at his own risk, and at least from a safety standpoint be safer. If RAM won't help he would be best taking the VIN's of his truck and a VIN with a 6.4 truck and 10,000 GVWR and taking it to a competent dealer with a competent parts department and have them look up both VINs and see if there is a difference in the part #'s of the coils.

I would bet that the spring is the same part number!
If any difference in the truck likely tires, maybe the 9,000# has 17” wheels and the 10,000# has 18” wheels.

[KHBama]

I would bet that the spring is the same part number!
If any difference in the truck likely tires, maybe the 9,000# has 17” wheels and the 10,000# has 18” wheels.

I have 20" wheels and get the same GVWR as the 18" wheels. I've been told the coils are identical. When you build a Ram online, selecting 5.7 gives you a 9,000 GVWR and selecting 6.4 gives you 10,000 GVWR. Payload goes from 2250 to 3300 just like that, lol. Total curb weight is 50lbs different. I don't know

[JRTJH]

While none of us "really know" the differences, there could be "no difference at all" or it could be tires, wheels, shock mounts, pinion/ring in the axles, or it could be something as obscure as the rivets that hold the spring mounts to the frame or even the rear bumper/front bumper that don't/won't absorb the impact at below the 5MPH bumper rating. There are thousands of components that make up the entire vehicle and any one of them "could be" a lighter duty component used on a "reduced GVW vehicle"..... Sometimes, it's not even the suspension/tires/wheels/axles that limit the GVW rating, and sometimes it may well be "just a paperwork adjustment"....

The sad part is how difficult it is to research your specific vehicle to see what the limiting factor or factors is/are. It isn't sufficient to research until you find something different and then stop, there may be 100 more parts that make up that package or there may be none. Hard to tell "positively" from just checking a few major components.

Most of the GVW options are aimed at the commercial market where vehicles are "taxed/regulated" by tare weight (and required to post that weight on the door) and most of those GVW options are ignored on private vehicles "not intended for commercial use". But in some states, any truck can be defined as a commercial vehicle by law, without regard to how it's really used. So, a "most confusing situation" for someone with a truck to "really know what its capacity really could be, by changing just springs, or tires, or adding air bags, etc......

[Frank G]

Trust me, the 4 generation Ram bumper system will not come close to protecting you in a 5 mph crash. Not even empty. New bumper and all attachment components required, plus body damage.

[AussieCanadian]

What’s funny, I have Ram 2500 5.7 but the 2500 with the 6.4(same rear HD coils) has 1000 more payload. No one on the Ram forums has been able to explain that one. Same truck with different engine

I also have a 2500 with the 6.4L hemi. My "sticker" payload is 3,128lb! The difference is the engine weight and then options. The difference in weight of the cummins alone is around ~800lb, hence the lower payload on 2500 diesel. Gas engines are FAR lighter than diesels, which is what pushed me into the 6.4 gasser.... coil springs for a smoother ride, but with the payload of a 3500!

To to original post... if it helps at all, with my truck with the 6.4L hemi and fifth wheel (34' Hideout 5er) I have a pin weight dry of 1,610 (1,900 loaded, plus reese slider of 200lb), add firewood in the truck bed etc, gear & passengers brings total actual payload including the trailer to usually around 2,800 ~ 3,000lb. My 2500 has a GVW of 10,000 (same as yours) and the last time I hit the scales it showed my truck to weigh 9,850lb - pretty close, but not over.

I think others have said it... you will be very close (like me), if not over your payload of 2,020lb. How much over you can go depends on your comfort level and what you feel is right. I once towed a TT with a half ton that was "very close" to the margins, and back then (even before I bought a 5er) decided to upgrade to my current 2500, because I didn't want to live with being over payload (and I was only 200lb over). I now look at all the 1/2 tons towing TT's (and some 5ers!!) out there, and to be honest - I walk around the campground and a good % are clearly WAY over their payloads based on the size of trailers they're towing. I camped next to a guy who was towing a 32' Cougar fifth with his 1/2 Ton Laramie (IE fully optioned) Ram, and there is no way he wasn't at LEAST 500lb if not more over his payload capacity. Did I say anything? No... but it tells me that everyone will make their own decision about these kinds of things, and so should you.

I wish you all the best with your decision. But know 1 thing - the Ram HD trucks are VERY capable of hauling heavy loads. I have been hugely impressed with my 2500 towing my 5er and so close to my payload limits. It works for me.

[AussieCanadian]

I have 20" wheels and get the same GVWR as the 18" wheels. I've been told the coils are identical. When you build a Ram online, selecting 5.7 gives you a 9,000 GVWR and selecting 6.4 gives you 10,000 GVWR. Payload goes from 2250 to 3300 just like that, lol. Total curb weight is 50lbs different. I don't know

Honestly, the difference in hardware is little....

The reasoning is marketing and sales related really. Ask yourself, as a customer... "What do I get for an extra $2,200 for the 6.4L option?" The answer is... you pay more, then you get a higher GVW sticker, as well as fuel-saver MDS. It means it's a little better on gas with the cylinder de-activation + legally you can haul more with an increased payload sticker. The 6.4L engine is of course more capable, but not THAT much more than the 5.7. If the 5.7 had a 10,000lb GVW also, then nobody would bother buying a 6.4..... it's that easy :)

[KSH]

Not sure if anyone mentioned it, but you can always look up the rating for your specific truck. Punch in your vin

https://www.ramtrucks.com/towing-guide.html

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[KHBama]

I also have a 2500 with the 6.4L hemi. My "sticker" payload is 3,128lb! The difference is the engine weight and then options. The difference in weight of the cummins alone is around ~800lb, hence the lower payload on 2500 diesel. Gas engines are FAR lighter than diesels, which is what pushed me into the 6.4 gasser.... coil springs for a smoother ride, but with the payload of a 3500!

curb weight of a 6.4L SLT 4X4 CC is 50lbs more the 5.7L SLT 4X4 CC. I understand the diesel having lower payload, but not the 5.7

[KHBama]

Honestly, the difference in hardware is little....

The reasoning is marketing and sales related really. Ask yourself, as a customer... "What do I get for an extra $2,200 for the 6.4L option?" The answer is... you pay more, then you get a higher GVW sticker, as well as fuel-saver MDS. It means it's a little better on gas with the cylinder de-activation + legally you can haul more with an increased payload sticker. The 6.4L engine is of course more capable, but not THAT much more than the 5.7. If the 5.7 had a 10,000lb GVW also, then nobody would bother buying a 6.4..... it's that easy :)

Yep... This is why i giggle at the "weight" police. Its really aggravating to abide to the rules and regulations when they are way off base vs reality.

[vampress_me]

This whole discussion is why I really wish we could find out what happens to this guy with his F-250 from the CHP, and any lawyers/ lawsuits (if involved).

https://youtu.be/DOnxT1S4Irw

[kfxgreenie]

This whole discussion is why I really wish we could find out what happens to this guy with his F-250 from the CHP, and any lawyers/ lawsuits (if involved).

https://youtu.be/DOnxT1S4Irw

He was probably nearing F350 srw weights limits without the modifications to the truck he made. There has to be some common sense used when willing to go over the 3/4 ton 10000 gvwr. Unfortunately his poor choice of judgement was even before it was legal to smoke pot in California, so no excuses. :facepalm:

[notanlines]

"Yep... This is why i giggle at the "weight" police. Its really aggravating to abide to the rules and regulations when they are way off base vs reality."

I feel pretty much to same way. I have tried and tried to get my pharmacist to issue me a hundred or so amoxicillin just to tide the lovely bride and I over until we get home, but to no avail. I just don't understand why I should have to see a doctor.....:banghead:

[KHBama]

Honestly, the difference in hardware is little....

The reasoning is marketing and sales related really. Ask yourself, as a customer... "What do I get for an extra $2,200 for the 6.4L option?" The answer is... you pay more, then you get a higher GVW sticker, as well as fuel-saver MDS. It means it's a little better on gas with the cylinder de-activation + legally you can haul more with an increased payload sticker. The 6.4L engine is of course more capable, but not THAT much more than the 5.7. If the 5.7 had a 10,000lb GVW also, then nobody would bother buying a 6.4..... it's that easy :)

He was probably nearing F350 srw weights limits without the modifications to the truck he made. There has to be some common sense used when willing to go over the 3/4 ton 10000 gvwr. Unfortunately his poor choice of judgement was even before it was legal to smoke pot in California, so no excuses. :facepalm:

Yes common sense definitely needs to be used. Keep in mind, my aggravation comes when I'm technically over payload on our "super lite"weight 5th wheel. Now if you see me towing a 12,000-16,000 gvwr 5er with my Ram 2500, please feel free to pull me over and slap me around around a bit :)

[KSH]

I know, totally unrelated. I just saw this guy driving around Los Angeles
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180116/63369e138adf6fbe0e3835294ca9454d.jpg

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[rhagfo]

I know, totally unrelated. I just saw this guy driving around Los Angeles
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180116/63369e138adf6fbe0e3835294ca9454d.jpg

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Interesting seems like a chopped up late 90’s early 00’s Mercedes carrying a Six PAC camper, thoses were designed for Rangers and Colorado’s. It is sitting level, would love to see how the Mercedes was cut up to make it fit!

[rhagfo]

Yes common sense definitely needs to be used. Keep in mind, my aggravation comes when I'm technically over payload on our "super lite"weight 5th wheel. Now if you see me towing a 12,000-16,000 gvwr 5er with my Ram 2500, please feel free to pull me over and slap me around around a bit :)

Well towing a 12,360# GVWR 5er with a 2500, so maybe bump that number to about 14,000# and still be within tire and axle capacities.

[kfxgreenie]

Add me to the list of pulling a 12,000 GVWR 5th Wheel with an advertised pin of 1545 safely with a Ram 2500 Diesel, coil springs.

[vampress_me]

He was probably nearing F350 srw weights limits without the modifications to the truck he made. There has to be some common sense used when willing to go over the 3/4 ton 10000 gvwr. Unfortunately his poor choice of judgement was even before it was legal to smoke pot in California, so no excuses. :facepalm:

I wasn't talking about whether he was overweight or not, I believe that has been figure out as a yes answer on other forums. What I'm curious about is did he get any tickets from the CHP for overweight, failure to yield, etc and if there's a lawsuit, how it would turn out (whether the overweight-ness would make a difference in the court case), how his insurance would handle payouts with being overweight. To have a hard, concrete answer on that type of question would make an interesting debate on how willing people are to tow over their sticker limits when they have a concrete example of the costs to their pocketbook, which seems to make a bigger impact than others sometimes.

[KHBama]

Add me to the list of pulling a 12,000 GVWR 5th Wheel with an advertised pin of 1545 safely with a Ram 2500 Diesel, coil springs.

My bad fellas, just talking about my 5.7L. Y’all are good 😀

[sourdough]

Well towing a 12,360# GVWR 5er with a 2500, so maybe bump that number to about 14,000# and still be within fire and axle capacities.

This has been talked about ad nauseum; there are those that try to follow the rules/laws (safety) and keep themselves/others safe and those that rationalize their decisions. Basing towing decisions based on GAWR and tire ratings, forgetting the entire construction of the vehicle and any other regulated restrictions (SO many more components) that seem to be forgotten, is yes, as funny as the weight police trying to warn folks about the down side of doing the same.

When I was a kid I always thought it was "cool" to find a way to shortcut things or find things I thought the "gubmint" was imposing on me (seatbelts anyone?) to ignore. I found that seatbelts indeed save lives. I found that a wheel will actually leave your trailer if you overload and think "it's all OK".

As Jim asked in another thread, "why do we respond to these kinds of comments" (paraphrased), I guess I have to say that, from time to time, I just feel that someone has to inject some thoughts to tame these claims down in the case that a new person is reading these comments.

Not casting stones or trying to be derogatory, just hope to inject "reality" into some of the optimistic/questionable towing statements made from time to time.:hide:

[KHBama]

This has been talked about ad nauseum; there are those that try to follow the rules/laws (safety) and keep themselves/others safe and those that rationalize their decisions. Basing towing decisions based on GAWR and tire ratings, forgetting the entire construction of the vehicle and any other regulated restrictions (SO many more components) that seem to be forgotten, is yes, as funny as the weight police trying to warn folks about the down side of doing the same.

When I was a kid I always thought it was "cool" to find a way to shortcut things or find things I thought the "gubmint" was imposing on me (seatbelts anyone?) to ignore. I found that seatbelts indeed save lives. I found that a wheel will actually leave your trailer if you overload and think "it's all OK".

As Jim asked in another thread, "why do we respond to these kinds of comments" (paraphrased), I guess I have to say that, from time to time, I just feel that someone has to inject some thoughts to tame these claims down in the case that a new person is reading these comments.

Not casting stones or trying to be derogatory, just hope to inject "reality" into some of the optimistic/questionable towing statements made from time to time.:hide:


Is it “cool” for me to pay more money for a 6.4L and get 1000# more payload when the 5.7L is the identical truck less 50lbs? All you have to do is click the 10,000 GVWR box...There are some that don’t understand that it’s all a marketing tool. Know your GAWR and tire ratings because it’s obvious that the payload numbers are not very reliable. I’m not buying a 1 Ton truck to tow a 9,000lb 5th wheel when my 3/4 Ton does the job perfectly despite being over payload but WELL under axle ratings and combined trailer rating. But to each their own

[Tinner12002]

This whole discussion is why I really wish we could find out what happens to this guy with his F-250 from the CHP, and any lawyers/ lawsuits (if involved).

https://youtu.be/DOnxT1S4Irw

Some forum member from some RV site probably told him that as long as his truck was under axle rating he was ok even though he was over his GVWR since those stickers are just propaganda that the govt requires. With all that great info he figured he was good to go!! No rules, just run what ya brung! Lol!

[KHBama]

He was probably to dumb to pay the extra money to get the extra 1000lb of payload...although it’s the exact same truck

[rhagfo]

This whole discussion is why I really wish we could find out what happens to this guy with his F-250 from the CHP, and any lawyers/ lawsuits (if involved).

https://youtu.be/DOnxT1S4Irw

Some forum member from some RV site probably told him that as long as his truck was under axle rating he was ok even though he was over his GVWR since those stickers are just propaganda that the govt requires. With all that great info he figured he was good to go!! No rules, just run what ya brung! Lol!


This has been discussed in the thread below.

http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31417

It would be interesting to have a follow up as he stated he did run the RED, but that the yellow was like only 2 seconds. I would be nice to know the timing of that light, and if it included an ALL RED, before giving other traffic a green.

I have looked over that video a bit, and based on the footage, the fact that the TH had a in slide entrance door and the CY3600 is the only Cyclone to have this feature these are the specs for that unit.
Please note that the CCC for this unit is 2,140# in a 39" TH :facepalm:. So most likely not only was he towing a 5er that should have 350 DRW, that 5er is most likely over it's GVWR also!

Specifications CY3600
GVWR 17,000 lbs
Dry Weight 14,860 lbs
Hitch Weight 3,375 lbs
Width 8' 5"
Height 13' 3"
Length 39' 4"
Axles (2) 7,000 lbs
Tires ST235/85R16-G

I brought up the issue of this in this thread about axle ratings on trailers, the fact that many 1/2 ton units have extremely low CCC's!

http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=269820#post269820

[DucBill]

This has been discussed in the thread below.

http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31417

It would be interesting to have a follow up as he stated he did run the RED, but that the yellow was like only 2 seconds. I would be nice to know the timing of that light, and if it included an ALL RED, before giving other traffic a green.

I have looked over that video a bit, and based on the footage, the fact that the TH had a in slide entrance door and the CY3600 is the only Cyclone to have this feature these are the specs for that unit.
Please note that the CCC for this unit is 2,140# in a 39" TH :facepalm:. So most likely not only was he towing a 5er that should have 350 DRW, that 5er is most likely over it's GVWR also!

Specifications CY3600
GVWR 17,000 lbs
Dry Weight 14,860 lbs
Hitch Weight 3,375 lbs
Width 8' 5"
Height 13' 3"
Length 39' 4"
Axles (2) 7,000 lbs
Tires ST235/85R16-G

I brought up the issue of this in this thread about axle ratings on trailers, the fact that many 1/2 ton units have extremely low CCC's!

http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=269820#post269820Tinner12002 that Cyclone sure made a burrito out of the aluminum skinned Ford, got any guacamole!

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[kfxgreenie]

Some forum member from some RV site probably told him that as long as his truck was under axle rating he was ok even though he was over his GVWR since those stickers are just propaganda that the govt requires. With all that great info he figured he was good to go!! No rules, just run what ya brung! Lol!

Problem was he was probably nearing or over 1 ton axle ratings. Throw that in conjunction with a lifted big tire truck, speed, and probably distractions, and walla you get an accident. Isn't anyone here telling anyone to put that kind of weight on any single rear wheel truck IMO. There is a forum member on here with a F250, tool box in the back of his truck towing a Montana 3820FK (Front Kitchen) and using a Demco Hijacker 18K hitch. Now that is a :nonono: IMO, but that is just that My Opinion.

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/0OYptAjWuZQvS3C-3XgF0G2zJbI=/0x0:2500x1667/920x613/filters:focal(1050x634:1450x1034):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/58330705/detroit_auto_show_2018_dodge_ram_5835.0.jpg

While we are talking about distractions, look at this new ram interior. :facepalm:

[Tinner12002]

Yep, probably several issues came into play that day!

[sourdough]

Is it “cool” for me to pay more money for a 6.4L and get 1000# more payload when the 5.7L is the identical truck less 50lbs? All you have to do is click the 10,000 GVWR box...There are some that don’t understand that it’s all a marketing tool. Know your GAWR and tire ratings because it’s obvious that the payload numbers are not very reliable. I’m not buying a 1 Ton truck to tow a 9,000lb 5th wheel when my 3/4 Ton does the job perfectly despite being over payload but WELL under axle ratings and combined trailer rating. But to each their own

I understand what you are saying and don't really KNOW what the difference between the 2 weight ratings is as is the case with most everyone on this forum. We can speculate, but that isn't KNOWING. As far as the 5.7 and 6.4 trucks being identical I can say without a doubt, having owned both, that the 5.7 and 6.4 engines are not identical by any stretch. I doubt that is what you are saying but just wanted to clarify:)

[mpgtow]

Not sure if anyone mentioned it, but you can always look up the rating for your specific truck. Punch in your vin

https://www.ramtrucks.com/towing-guide.html

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Looks like after inputting my VIN I received a new payload amount!!! Perfect for a new half ton fifth wheel :lol:
15111

[sourdough]

Looks like after inputting my VIN I received a new payload amount!!! Perfect for a new half ton fifth wheel :lol:
15111

The Ram towing guide you are directed to isn't correct. All it does is give the max payload for your "type" of vehicle. The sticker on your door will tell you what is accurate - which is probably less. As is always the case.....look at the door.

[KSH]

If you punch your vin into the look up my vehicle it gives you specific info. Not sure why it doesn't have the right payload. It use to work properly.

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[sourdough]

If you punch your vin into the look up my vehicle it gives you specific info. Not sure why it doesn't have the right payload. It use to work properly.

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It's the Ram truck towing website. You can put your VIN in as I did and I get my generic truck; body style, engine, CC etc. It then gives you the MAX payload for that type of vehicle. I've not ever seen a generic Ram website that gave specific VIN info....I may have missed it but I haven't seen it. Did what the website tell you match what was on your door?

[DucBill]

It's the Ram truck towing website. You can put your VIN in as I did and I get my generic truck; body style, engine, CC etc. It then gives you the MAX payload for that type of vehicle. I've not ever seen a generic Ram website that gave specific VIN info....I may have missed it but I haven't seen it. Did what the website tell you match what was on your door?Maybe you can get a new door LOL

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