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sourdough
12-20-2017, 02:33 PM
There have been many, many discussions of Keystone quality or the lack thereof. Interestingly, I just received my digital copy of Trailer Life and.....low and behold Keystone is the 2017 gold award recipient in the 5th wheel and toy hauler categories! Now this isn't from the few on the forum but rather the entire Trailer Life readership which encompasses owners of virtually all brands. Maybe things aren't so bad after all......??:angel:

http://www.trailerlife.com/rv-gear/2017-trailer-life-readers-choice-award-winners/?utm_source=exacttarget&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=TLC19177_12202017

Tbos
12-20-2017, 03:16 PM
Sure makes you wonder. I see Outdoor and Northwood didn’t make the list.


2016 Passport GT 2810BHS, 2016 F350 CC DRW

Gegrad
12-20-2017, 03:27 PM
Saw in the Travel Trailer section Lance won. That's all good and well, but 1) they are 75% more expensive than Keystones. I HIGHLY doubt they will last 75% longer when both are well cared for. 2) They don't make anything longer than 23 ft. That's nice for people who really can't tow with anything bigger than an SUV, but useless for anyone that wants to sleep with more than 4 without being shoehorned in the trailer.

srvnt
12-20-2017, 04:05 PM
What if anything would be considered high quality on a stock Passport? Not the brakes, not the tires, not the fit and finish, not the electronics, and not the floor or roof among others. So what then? They don't even exhaust the oven fan outside!

sourdough
12-20-2017, 05:00 PM
Saw in the Travel Trailer section Lance won. That's all good and well, but 1) they are 75% more expensive than Keystones. I HIGHLY doubt they will last 75% longer when both are well cared for. 2) They don't make anything longer than 23 ft. That's nice for people who really can't tow with anything bigger than an SUV, but useless for anyone that wants to sleep with more than 4 without being shoehorned in the trailer.

You're right. I can't factor Lance into what we need, so, I suppose Keystone would be next....;)

sourdough
12-20-2017, 05:01 PM
What if anything would be considered high quality on a stock Passport? Not the brakes, not the tires, not the fit and finish, not the electronics, and not the floor or roof among others. So what then? They don't even exhaust the oven fan outside!


High quality? You got all the items you mentioned but I suppose they're not top of the line? What did you pay for your Passport?

Tinner12002
12-21-2017, 03:03 AM
There have been many, many discussions of Keystone quality or the lack thereof. Interestingly, I just received my digital copy of Trailer Life and.....low and behold Keystone is the 2017 gold award recipient in the 5th wheel and toy hauler categories! Now this isn't from the few on the forum but rather the entire Trailer Life readership which encompasses owners of virtually all brands. Maybe things aren't so bad after all......??:angel:

http://www.trailerlife.com/rv-gear/2017-trailer-life-readers-choice-award-winners/?utm_source=exacttarget&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=TLC19177_12202017

Yep seen that also, was thinking maybe I made a good choice! Did you also see the 2018 tow guide...looked like Ram is the top dog in their charts for 3500 max towing. I thought the big 3 were all closer in towing capacities than what they have listed.

ken56
12-21-2017, 06:24 AM
I believe its called the "readers choice" awards so that tells me its just a collection of other peoples opinions really. A popularity contest in essence. What controls and criteria were used to arrive at "the best"? The auto industry and some others use JD Power and associates to collect buyer satisfaction surveys among other guidelines to come up with a somewhat better picture of quality and buyer satisfaction. Maybe the RV manufacturers should start doing something like this.

srvnt
12-21-2017, 11:49 AM
High quality? You got all the items you mentioned but I suppose they're not top of the line? What did you pay for your Passport?

Hardly top of the line. Manufacturers use the cheapest materials they can. And craftsmanship? don't get me started LOL! 26 grand for a new cheezy RV, which i knew about going in, but we've had a blast the last couple years! I know they can do much better.

dcg9381
12-21-2017, 01:18 PM
1) Who are the major advertisers that keep trailer life in business?
2) If it's readers choice, by vote, Keystone is one of the largest market segments. People tend to vote for what they own.

This has nothing to do with quality or lack of.

If they did a survey of owner quality, that's an entirely different ballgame... But I don't think Trailer Life is in the business of pissing off their largest advertisers..

sourdough
12-21-2017, 02:49 PM
1) Who are the major advertisers that keep trailer life in business?
2) If it's readers choice, by vote, Keystone is one of the largest market segments. People tend to vote for what they own.

This has nothing to do with quality or lack of.

If they did a survey of owner quality, that's an entirely different ballgame... But I don't think Trailer Life is in the business of pissing off their largest advertisers..

I would have to disagree. You tend to vote for what you own if you've had a good experience. Good experience = not in the shop every day = quality (in some form or fashion). We have had plenty on the forum that I'm sure wouldn't send in glowing reviews of their Keystone's because they "owned" them.

Now, as far as the size of the market share, yes, Keystone has a lot. In that respect, IF the votes came in in the same proportion as that of the ownership then they would possibly have an edge. Then again, you get into demographics, tendency to vote, etc. etc. etc. At that point, you need to be a professional pollster to thoroughly misread the results.

I think it is far easier to just read the info, take it for what it is and be done with it. Or, you could just write Trailer Life and ask all their criteria, how the scores were tabulated etc. I think I'd rather be fishing...:D

jbryant
12-21-2017, 03:07 PM
There have been many, many discussions of Keystone quality or the lack thereof. Interestingly, I just received my digital copy of Trailer Life and.....low and behold Keystone is the 2017 gold award recipient in the 5th wheel and toy hauler categories! Now this isn't from the few on the forum but rather the entire Trailer Life readership which encompasses owners of virtually all brands. Maybe things aren't so bad after all......??:angel:



http://www.trailerlife.com/rv-gear/2017-trailer-life-readers-choice-award-winners/?utm_source=exacttarget&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=TLC19177_12202017



Keystone hard to work with. Not Customer friendly.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

notanlines
12-21-2017, 03:20 PM
jbryant, maybe back this up with some further information. Maybe you're correct and maybe not, but give us something to work with. You tow with a .....and you tow a ......and you had a problem with a .....see where I'm coming from?

KHBama
12-21-2017, 03:45 PM
Been on 2 trips with our 5th and not impressed at all with quality. I think a lot of it could have been avoided with just a little extra attention to detail. Screws randomly coming out, boards loose, rubber coming off, etc. nothing major but just makes you wonder how they did on the items you can’t see.

notanlines
12-21-2017, 04:51 PM
Bama, this won't make you feel better, but Keystone didn't make what you don't see.

Canonman
12-21-2017, 05:12 PM
[QUOTE=jbryant;267223]Keystone hard to work with. Not Customer friendly.

I'm afraid I have to disagree. We had (More Than) our fair share of warranty issues in our first year owning our Cougar. Whenever we were in disagreement with CW over what Keystone would take care of we were treated very professionally by Keystone Customer Service and CW stepped up to every recommendation Keystone made.
Problems... YES. Solutions... Every time.
Could the manufacturer do a better QC job prior to delivery? Absolutely!
Are they any worse that any other major manufacturer? The forums say otherwise.
Our recommendation: be patient, keep good records and document everything.
And, finally, be courteous and professional dealing with both the dealer and the manufacturer.

CrazyCain
12-21-2017, 05:22 PM
I like my little Hideout...

PopBeavers
12-21-2017, 08:05 PM
We got our Keystone Cougar a year ago. I reported every little thing I could find, expecting to end up negotiating. I wanted some items that I was willing to give up.

They were all fixed, no questions asked.

My local dealer is short of techs, so it takes longer than I would like. BUT, everything I reported has been properly fixed.

I am very happy.

chuckster57
12-21-2017, 09:14 PM
Keystone hard to work with? Not customer friendly?

Spend some time in the shop with me, Keystone isn’t the easiest, but they are BY FAR much easier than most.

Tinner12002
12-22-2017, 02:48 AM
Well I used to think that there was no way I would ever own a Keystone product...but here I is! I've read that all brands have issues, some more than others. I actually thought I'd be happy with the Full House toy hauler but they seem to have their share of issues also. I finally started looking at some of the Keystone stuff and liked several of their floorplans and ended up with the Raptor. So far so good with only a couple minor issues.

ctbruce
12-22-2017, 04:56 AM
I didn't even need customer service because everything on mine worked right the first time. I think that happens more often than we think.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

ADQ K9
12-22-2017, 10:31 AM
No problems with the Tumbleweed yet, (knocking on wood). Bought from CW in WA shipped to AK. Thoroughly inspected before delivery from shipper.
Got recall notice earlier this month. No problems working with local dealer service center yet. ordered parts but probably wont be here till Feb. That's about normal for up here everything is 6 to 8 weeks out unless you want to pay $$$$$$$$$$ for shipping.

Stircrazy
12-24-2017, 05:15 PM
we looked for our new fifth for almost 1.5 years and decided on the cougar because of the quality of the interior and such over all the other brands in the comparable price range.

Steve

rhagfo
12-24-2017, 08:47 PM
We bought our 2005 Keystone “Sprinter” Copper Canyon used in 2012,
Been very happy with quality of build for product line. We don’t know
What issues the original owner had, but we have been happy with the unit.
We have made improvements, but we had a choice of the Copper Canyon or a Montana both the same model and floor plan. We could deal on the Copper Canyon there was no dealing on the Montana. We have never looked back, we are currently in the sixth month of full timing.

dcg9381
12-28-2017, 12:02 PM
I would have to disagree. You tend to vote for what you own if you've had a good experience. Good experience = not in the shop every day = quality (in some form or fashion). We have had plenty on the forum that I'm sure wouldn't send in glowing reviews of their Keystone's because they "owned" them.

I hear what you're saying. But think about it - you're indicating that dissatisfied customers aren't going to vote for the manufacturer. That's true.
But as Keystone STILL owns a massive market share, even if half of the owners are pissed off (I'm not saying that's the case), the market of happy owners is still larger than Jayco or Winnebago.

I'm simply stating that happy or unhappy, there is a big advantage to having market share when we are just counting votes in a list.




I think it is far easier to just read the info, take it for what it is and be done with it. Or, you could just write Trailer Life and ask all their criteria, how the scores were tabulated etc. I think I'd rather be fishing...:D

I didn't write in.. Like you, I don't care THAT much. There tons of media in non-RV verticals (say, like insurance) that give away awards that are, IMHO, a little "kick back" for advertising. My business gets an award, your business, gets references to your media. It's capitalism... At least the links don't have obvious affiliate tags. But these companies DO look a where their website traffic is coming from and there is a financial incentive - either direct or indirect to advertising that way.

Perhaps I'm a bit twisted by the threat title "Keystone Quality" - which links to an award where readers (and people online) can vote for their favorite manufacturer. Thinking about it a different way, if I was asked to vote for my favorite car, it wouldn't have one lick to do with quality (otherwise I'd vote for something by Honda). My favorite automobile has everything to do with functionality, features, performance and not darn thing to do with quality... Say if I really liked the Alfa Romeo Giulia's... They win all sorts of awards:
https://www.alfaromeousaofuppersaddleriver.com/blog/2017/july/26/11-awards-won-alfa-romeo-giulia.htm

But I know WAY better than to own one.... Due to reliability. IE "Consumer Reports’ 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia Ti Basically Lives In The Dealer Service Bay"

I guess I'm saying that "readers choice" has nothing to do with the title of "quality".

RVT has an interesting survey specifically on RV manufacturers by quality, livability, and other specific metrics:
https://www.rvt.com/blog/trends/rv-manufacturers-with-the-highest-average-consumer-rankings-and-reviews/

Keystone ranks well for livability. :-)

And I'm NOT unhappy with my Keystone - after all the issues have been worked out. It's going great now. Just took a little while to get there.

ken56
12-29-2017, 07:55 AM
I have owned 3 travel trailers .......1st was a Starcraft Autumn Ridge and not once did I have to take it back to the dealer. 2nd was a Coleman and again I did not have to take it back to the dealer for warranty issues. Our latest is our Keystone Laredo and I had the dealer fix a few things under warranty, like LED lights and a black tank rinser that quit working. I still think the quality of our Laredo is quite good. We love the floor plan and it suits us very well. That said, all are under the parent company of Thor Industries.

We know trailers are a compilation of parts from other makers, furnace, air conditioner, refrigerators etc. Walls and trim and frames, wiring and plumbing that are maker/brand specific are about the only things the manufacturers make and put together and then they install the other items from other makers.

Quality is a subjective issue I believe and readers choice awards are minimally helpful although they do have SOME merit. You buy a unit and take your chances.

JRTJH
12-29-2017, 08:09 AM
I agree. Quality is, for most people, did I get what I thought I was getting....

RV's aren't any different than cars, trucks, houses, roads, land, etc. If you don't have any problems, it's a "good manufacturer" if you do have problems, it's a "not as good manufacturer"...

Buying a new house, if your foundation is the one out of 1000 the builder poured that cracks, he'll be a "lousy builder" in your opinon, until you get over it (somehow). If you buy the one lot in a subdivision that winds up with a sinkhole under your swimming pool, you either had a bad pool installer or the real estate agent stole your money.... It's all subjective, some buyers expect more than is realistic, they will never be happy, some buyers just don't care, they'll always be happy and most of us fall "somewhere in the middle" and depending on what happens, we can either accept it, deal with it or be miserable because of it......

I've seen many situations where I'd have shrugged my shoulders, tightened a screw or replaced a fuse and kept on truckin' while some people are "having a stroke" yelling at the service manager about their trailer that's falling apart.

It's far more subjective than objective when someone describes their "quality built trailer" or their "No quality at all in this thing trailer".....

BigTexRex
12-29-2017, 04:21 PM
Small issues (trim, drawers, screws, minor plumbing leaks, etc.) can be frustrating, but easily fixed and ALL RV manufactures are known to have these same problems. But, what I found refreshing about the smaller Keystone Cougars are the current upgrades--(15 inch "E" rated tires, 4,400 pound axles, over-rated frames, a bigger heater and air conditioner, larger propane bottles, larger bed, electric jacks, more options for a "couple's trailer", etc.) Keystone uses the same line of products for several of their trailers and the small ones benefit from being over engineered, while the competition (comparable 26-27 foot trailer) are using the bare minimum products (14 inch C rated tires, 3,500 lb. axles, etc.). Just read the Airstream forum and you'll read the same issues/problems are occurring on their products as well.

theallde
12-29-2017, 05:06 PM
ken56 is right, I would like to see JD Powers rate the RV Industry products? With 500,000 RV’s being built every year, I would think that they would have an audience.