Choked! 19RB Deal breaker!!

[ptooti]

In anticipation of our new unit and awaiting arrival I have been doing much research I discovered that the unit that I'm supposed to be getting does not have the black frameless windows like what I was expecting I told the dealer this is a deal breaker for me :( he told me they switched back to the old type windows because of too many problems with the frameless ones can anyone chime in on this about the windows please and do you think my dealer is scamming me for cheaper windows to equal bigger profit? is it true or did they go away from frameless?? I'm pannicked I told my dealer its a deal breaker and I dont want the unit then he said its on the assemply line now due for delivery in Novemeber I told him too bad I dont want so dont ship it waiting to hear back I'm in a fluster I told him I dont want NO Surprizes! :banghead:

**** UPDATE****FROM****KEYSTONE****
The mid year changes to the unit are as follows:

Just to recap all the extras you get in the new 2018 Elite:
3/4 White fade resistant cap (this has changed from a full nose cap)
8 cu ft fridge - Larger Fridge
Glass top flush mount stove
Aluminum steps
Slam latch baggage doors
3-YEAR WARRANTY!!! (this was not in effect until 9/1, so units that came off line before that date still only have the 1 year warranty)

this is the walk through filmed less than a month ago https://my.matterport.com/show/?m=ZMvE1n8J3Pb
************************************************** ************
this is what they want to send me small slider windows http://atvingpa.com/forums/files/usergals/2017/08/full-447-5690-2018_keystone_passport_elite_19rb.jpg

as opposed to what I wanted and thought I was getting

http://img.scgpix.com/listimg/img1_0617/19/img_hePOKiA0fMuuZ2W.jpg

[Terry W.]

In anticipation of our new unit and awaiting arrival I have been doing much research I discovered that the unit that I'm supposed to be getting does not have the black frameless windows like what I was expecting I told the dealer this is a deal breaker for me :( he told me they switched back to the old type windows because of too many problems with the frameless ones can anyone chime in on this about the windows please and do you think my dealer is scamming me for cheaper windows to equal bigger profit? is it true or did they go away from frameless?? I'm pannicked I told my dealer its a deal breaker and I dont want the unit then he said its on the assemply line now due for delivery in Novemeber I told him too bad I dont want so dont ship it waiting to hear back I'm in a fluster I told him I dont want NO Surprizes! :banghead:

this is what they want to send me small slider windows http://atvingpa.com/forums/files/usergals/2017/08/full-447-5690-2018_keystone_passport_elite_19rb.jpg

as opposed to what I wanted and thought I was getting

http://img.scgpix.com/listimg/img1_0617/19/img_hePOKiA0fMuuZ2W.jpgPersonally I would not have the frameless windows. I have read too many stories of the windows following off.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[ctbruce]

Just a thought. The windows appear to be the same size. In the frameless windows, only the bottom third opens up. ON the sliders, a larger surface area opens allowing more air into the camper.

I have had both types in campers, and i really do not notice any difference in the two. Just curious, why would the slider windows be a deal breaker? Maybe I'm missing something. :thewave:

[ptooti]

Im imagining standing beside the bed to look out and having to bend over to see out there is a difference in visible realestate there

[ptooti]

and we have a pet i think with awning style we can go out with the windows open if it rains a bit the water wont come in

[gregrc75]

I have had both. I have had frameless since 2011. The airflow is slightly reduced with frameless but the benefit of being able to leave them open in the rain outweighs that. I actually leave a window or two open when parked while not in use.
Never had a single issue with frameless. They use sliding windows in the slide out sides. I have had two of those sliding windows be tough to slide open and closed. Can the tracks, or sills, be lubricated?

[ctbruce]

Im imagining standing beside the bed to look out and having to bend over to see out there is a difference in visible realestate there

I'll give you that. To each his own. I'm only 5'10", so I don't have to do much bending over to look out. Unless you were around 6'6", I don't think you'd have to bend over much. But at that eighth, you'd already be bending over to not bump the ceiling.

Something to consider is that the frameless windows do have the propensity to fall out, as pointed out above. And bigger windows allow in bigger light and more heat. For me, heat is a killer and I like a dark room. But to each his own.

[ctbruce]

and we have a pet i think with awning style we can go out with the windows open if it rains a bit the water wont come in

I would caution against leaving an awning out and not being around. It does not take a lot of wind to rip one off of the side of a trailer. I have two large dogs, but I do not leave my windows open. They bark loudly and I don't want to disturb others. Just my 2 cents. The decision has to be yours alone. :twocents:


Good luck in your decision. I hope it all works out for you.

[JRTJH]

If you go inside the trailer and look at the window frame, both the "frameless" and the "aluminum framed" windows have an aluminum frame. The difference is what you see on the outside. On the aluminum framed window, the frame is attached to the trailer wall with an aluminum flange. On the frameless window, the aluminum frame is attached to the trailer wall with a glass flange (so you don't see the aluminum frame). Otherwise, the windows are essentially identical in actual "glass inside the aluminum frame". There is an "appearance of more glass" on the frameless windows, but from the inside looking out, it's the same "glass surface that passes light".

There have been some significant problems with the bonding of glass to the aluminum frame on "frameless windows". It's mostly related to the glue that holds the glass to the window frame. On the aluminum framed windows, the glass is secured with rubber moldings, a much more reliable means to keep the glass from falling off the trailer.

It's your choice, possibly your dealer can find a trailer that's on a lot somewhere with the frameless windows if that's your preference, but realize that it won't be a "new trailer, fresh off the assembly line" but one that may have been sitting on a lot with a number of people walking through it, twisting knobs, jumping on the floor, soiling the upholstery and carpet and who knows how long the sun has shined on those "less than great" OEM tires.

ADDED: Dealers don't get to pick and choose how a trailer is assembled by Keystone, so don't assume that your dealer is doing a "bait and switch" to make more money from your sale. Keystone does "reserve the right to make mid year changes without notice" and that information is in a disclaimer found somewhere on every trailer brochure. I wouldn't believe that it's some kind of conspiracy between the dealer and Keystone to "bilk you out of your money".....

[zuley]

The deal breaker for me would be the dealer "lying" to me by saying they are having problems with the frameless window. We have a 23RB with frameless windows. Unless I've missed the memo there are no problems that I have heard about or have experienced with the windows. I'd be good with either. What I have issues with is salemen who are full of ****.

[jimthemosaicguy]

I shopped at Lerch and don’t remember the issue I had but remember it was enough to walk away from the deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ptooti]

I have bark control for my dog and the awning open with roof fan on is good ventilation I would never leave my pet in a trailer closed up in the hot weather if for some reason the power tripped they could die I'm not comfortable willing to risk having the awning style windows

[ptooti]

ok well if you look at the smaller slider windows in the pic the one in the bed area appears the bottom of it is at the same height as the handle on the entry door or groin height I dont know by my eyes are substantially higher then groin height :lol:

Just a thought. The windows appear to be the same size. In the frameless windows, only the bottom third opens up. ON the sliders, a larger surface area opens allowing more air into the camper.

I have had both types in campers, and i really do not notice any difference in the two. Just curious, why would the slider windows be a deal breaker? Maybe I'm missing something. :thewave:

[sourdough]

I've had both and don't know that having either would be a deal breaker for me on a new trailer. I like the looks of the frameless and the way they open on the bottom. I like the other because of the simpler installation and easier repairs. The opening for the frameless, a small section at the bottom of the window, reduces airflow but keeps rain out. The non frameless allows more air but lets rain in. As far as the size of the bedroom window you reference, I don't think that would make any difference to me. I don't look out of my bedroom windows anyway (not any of the 3 of them). Of course, to each his own, but to my thinking it's not enough of an issue to stop the sale. JMO

[ptooti]

Thanks that's why I'm asking opinions I'm in communication with the rep in Indiana over this right now and he is telling me they switched this over mid sept to keep these windows to lower cost and provide other features. Still those small windows are a deal breaker I told him will see what comes maybe shopping still I guess :banghead:
The deal breaker for me would be the dealer "lying" to me by saying they are having problems with the frameless window. We have a 23RB with frameless windows. Unless I've missed the memo there are no problems that I have heard about or have experienced with the windows. I'd be good with either. What I have issues with is salemen who are full of ****.

[slow]

The vertical mullion would be of concern to me. The seal at the bottom degrades over time and allows water to penetrate the wall cavity. Had this issue on another trailer brand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[texas-traveler]

For anyone that is interested, here is a report concerning everyone's issues with bad salesmen, dealers, manufactures of rv units and to include promised hype..
this report will make you wonder about the quality and the competence of the human factor plus the integrity of some people to make a sale.

http://rvdr-cdn3.appxtreme.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/RV-Industry-Death-Spiral-compilation.pdf

[notanlines]

Zuley, I believe if you peruse the other forums or ask your friend Google you'll find that there is a little problem with the frameless windows falling out. Again quoting another member: JM2cents

[Pamac37]

I have the 2017 Passport Elite and have towed it all this year since May, and have not had one issue with my frameless windows. I actually like them. You can leave them open during the rain. The only time rain has come in was through the sliders on the slide out. That’s my 2 cents.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[zuley]

Zuley, I believe if you peruse the other forums or ask your friend Google you'll find that there is a little problem with the frameless windows falling out. Again quoting another member: JM2cents


Thankyou NTL. I was not aware of that. Still does not change my opinion of RV salesmen though. :-) I'll have to keep an eye on mine. Personally I'm not happy with the limited amount the frameless window open, probably only swing out 3 inches at the bottom. I don't give it a lot of thought though.

[FlyingChief]

For what it’s worth, we’ve had frameless for 4+ years and about 20,000 miles. Never had a window fall out.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[slow]

......we’ve had frameless for 4+ years and about 20,000 miles. Never had a window fall out.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



My experience is very similar.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[zuley]

We drove through road construction this past weekend while taking ours to storage. Shook three fillings out of my molars. If my frameless windows stayed in place during that I suspect they are good to go.

[ptooti]

I'm suspecting that some people may have a problem with frameless windows as with all TT units but for the most part I see alot of units out there with frameless windows they are not all driving around with the windows falling out I have not seen one in fact. I think the decision change on the 19RB was a cost decision as Im sure they would cost more$$$ the rep said they changed out and were able to provide other enhancements and keep the cost in line.

[ctbruce]

Are frameless windows an option? Nows the time to be asking.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

[ptooti]

Apparently they are not anymore on the 19RB as of mid September 2017

[thewhitehat]

I totally understand about aesthetics. Some things - shapes, colors, textures offend my sensibilities. It's not always about functionality, but how it looks too. Personally, I've had dealers try to give me something I didn't exactly want. Sometimes I caved in and settled - sometimes not.

If you feel strongly about frameless windows, I'd tell the dealer to take the other trailer and "stick it". We pay far too much for these toilet paper trailers that will degrade quickly to settle for what we didn't want. Keep looking for something else that strikes your fancy.

[SteveC7010]

When this thread started, my initial reaction was, "What's the big deal? Windows are windows." But the more I think on it and read the replies in the thread, the more convinced I am that if the buyer specified frameless windows when they ordered, then they should get frameless windows. And that makes it a deal breaker if the buyer insists.

But what happens more often than not is that the buyer sees a unit on the showroom floor or in the brochure and orders one, thinking they're going to get precisely what they think the unit will be based on what they saw. Without being specific about these things when ordering, the buyer is then at the mercy of the manufacturer's general policy about changes to materials, etc. It still boils down to caveat emptor.

[jimthemosaicguy]

You might try calling Keystone Customer Service and ask them whether they’re still an option. 866-425-4369. You can find their hours on Keystone RV.com. Find a service center (blue tab) on the left side.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jimthemosaicguy]

If still an option they might like to know there’s a dealer telling potential buyers wrong info.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jimthemosaicguy]

It’s interesting their website still shows them as a feature.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171019/918d2dd888039c76cf2a31999af2f226.png


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[earlzach]

Mine on the website days "radius" shower rod. Not shown in any trailer delivered.

[JRTJH]

I remember years ago I ordered a new 1975 Blazer Cheyenne package without A/C (budget constraints) in July. Back then, the order books were closed in early August and the new year models were introduced the first week of September. Well, in early August my Blazer arrived WITH air conditioning. I refused it and wanted them to reorder. The dealer refused to order me a 75 model (books were closed) and refused to look outside the Denver area for a comparable truck. They said, "Happy to order you a 76 model, it's $900 more than the same 75 model."

Chevy wouldn't budge, there were no comparable Cheyenne packaged Blazers available around the Denver area and I was told "Either take it or leave it"... I left it and that's part of why I buy Fords now....

To compare, Keystone (actually all manufacturers) have a "disclaimer" on every pamphlet that says they "reserve the right to make changes without notice".... If they do make a change then it's up to the customer to decide whether to accept the change or not.

I'd think, (just my opinion) that if the "reserved changes" are not acceptable to the customer, the dealer should allow the customer to refuse the deal and refund all money. That's very likely the extent of "customer insistence" in a situation like this. It's "get your money back and begin the search again" to find an acceptable model from either Keystone or another manufacturer.

I wouldn't think there is a "part of any legal and binding contract" that would require Keystone to build a "custom RV" because a dealer made a promise that he couldn't keep.

[ptooti]

Turns out this is the actual example unit with the changes made for 2018
it appears there is 1 frame-less window on the opposite side of the bed maybe this was the last one to use up before the changeover? lol and this has the 3/4 nose cap so between what I was shown and expecting there is a visual difference so I guess we will; have to wait and see what shows up I was told it would be here in November https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqLoFF4K_l0

[Gegrad]

That unit in the video doesn't have any frameless windows. Bummer!

[sourdough]

That unit in the video doesn't have any frameless windows. Bummer!


Nope, didn't see any either.

[TheGriz]

If in fact you walk away from your existing deal, you may want to consider Keystone's Bullet Premier 19FBPR. It is nearly identical to what you are looking at, and from what I can see still has the frameless windows in the 2018 model. It really is a great smaller TT perfect for a couple! I had the 2017 model but traded in on a larger Laredo 288RL (that's another story!). Anyway here is a vid of the 19FBPR.

https://youtu.be/sBI-f-u3xS4

Good luck in whatever you decide!

Regards,
Mike

[ptooti]

Thanks I actually was in the 19FBPR and it was at a different dealer that was not willing to move or meet at all on the price I had on the 19RB so I have seen it and liked it just could not negotiate a good enough deal they are both comparable the only thing I didnt like on the 19FBPR was only had a kitchen window and the door nothing near the bed

[Gegrad]

Thanks I actually was in the 19FBPR and it was at a different dealer that was not willing to move or meet at all on the price I had on the 19RB so I have seen it and liked it just could not negotiate a good enough deal they are both comparable the only thing I didnt like on the 19FBPR was only had a kitchen window and the door nothing near the bed

Well, it has the frameless windows, so now you know why they wouldn't budge on price! :lol::lol::lol:

[ptooti]

Well, it has the frameless windows, so now you know why they wouldn't budge on price! :lol::lol::lol:
To Clarify the initial 19rb at the time had the frameless windows they could not match and they had less windows ... :lol::lol: :lol:

[mlk1950]

For anyone that is interested, here is a report concerning everyone's issues with bad salesmen, dealers, manufactures of rv units and to include promised hype..
this report will make you wonder about the quality and the competence of the human factor plus the integrity of some people to make a sale.

http://rvdr-cdn3.appxtreme.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/RV-Industry-Death-Spiral-compilation.pdf

Now that is a very interesting read. Thanks

[notanlines]

Texas-Traveler, thanks a heap for an article that depressed me so badly I'll have to resort to many bottles of adult beverage to lift my spirits. Holy shmoly, I made it through 18 pages (yes, 18!) and that was all I could handle.

[ptooti]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:Texas-Traveler, thanks a heap for an article that depressed me so badly I'll have to resort to many bottles of adult beverage to lift my spirits. Holy shmoly, I made it through 18 pages (yes, 18!) and that was all I could handle.