Towing with an overloaded truck

[sourdough]

Saw something yesterday and just thought I would share since we do have so many discussions about trucks, trailers and weights.

DW and I were out looking at properties in the outlying areas here in CO. Driving down a little rural blacktop I saw a 5th wheel and truck pulled over on the left side of the road. The truck bed was sagging very badly. I commented to my wife as we passed that there was an example of someone that towed way overweight. It was a newer F150.

On our return we were passing the same combo and my wife said "he has a flat". I stopped and backed up to look and sure enough the right rear tire was flat. I then looked at the blacktop and could see the black squiggly marks of a tire being run flat on the pavement.....it was from the left side! Got out and walked around and the left rear was ruined. I was going to take a picture but when I asked DW for her phone so I could she told me there was no way I was taking pictures of this guys misfortune and then spread it around on the internet!!

Anyway, it was about a 32-35' 5th wheel sitting on the F150 on OEM tires. Have no idea where they had been or what the tires had been subjected to but it was a severe example of what could happen when trying to tow a heavy trailer with an underequipped truck. Thankfully it was on a back road at a slow speed and not 65mph. Just wanted to pass that along as food for thought. I went back yesterday evening with MY phone so I could take a pic but it was gone.

[xrated]

He's probably at the nearest dealership right now, trading it in on something that is enough truck to haul that 5ver. :eek:

[rhagfo]

Without weight facts and pictures just another Internet story!
Keep in mind some F150 have about 1,200# payload, and others have near 3,000# yes the Max/Max F150 are rare,but out there.
The 5er make and model?? No information could be a 1/2 ton towable, might max out less than 10,000#.
Without the TV payload info and the 5er make and model just a TV with a flat tire.

[sourdough]

Without weight facts and pictures just another Internet story!
Keep in mind some F150 have about 1,200# payload, and others have near 3,000# yes the Max/Max F150 are rare,but out there.
The 5er make and model?? No information could be a 1/2 ton towable, might max out less than 10,000#.
Without the TV payload info and the 5er make and model just a TV with a flat tire.

That's the reason I wanted to get the pic - .....for folks like you. It was a Rockwood 5vr. No, I wasn't going to poke around someone's trailer and try to pull the specs off the door. I wish my wife would have let me have her phone.

Just "another internet story?" I take offense to that since you are implying I'm lying; which I'm not. I don't need to sit around dreaming up things to put on this forum. I just thought it was interesting, and, I've never seen both tires blown on the back of a pickup towing a travel trailer of any kind just sitting there. I do understand the variables in various tow vehicles but SOMETHING caused both rear tires to fail on a flat, smooth pavement.

As I said in the original post, I put that out there as food for thought......for those that can think.

[SUnderwood]

if I remember right this is a cat 279 about 10,000 lbs

[Bolo4u]

But, there was a safety chain attached.


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[drew999999]

if I remember right this is a cat 279 about 10,000 lbs



I had a Suburban Z71 similar to that. Loved the hell out of it for road trips but could hardly handle my 5000lb boat towing at 55. Pulling out of steep ramps at 4500 rpms was not fun. Couldn't imagine trying to handle a skid loader.


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[rhagfo]

Interesting that the trailer and load stayed upright while the TV is on its side. Yep bad case of the tail wagging the dog.

[vampress_me]

Or there's the slightly different setup I saw "parked" on the side of the road today on the north side of Rochester when we headed to the campground. Toyota Tundra pulling an older steel gooseneck stock trailer that was about 22'- 24' long. Truck and trailer pulled over on the side of the road with the drive shaft not attached to the rear axle anymore. The truck was newer, but it still made our son and I wonder why someone would try pulling a stock trailer like that with a Tundra. And yes, I obviously don't know the backstory on weights, but I do own a 3 horse bumper pull steel trailer that weighs 4700 lbs empty, so I have an educated guess.

[rhagfo]

That's the reason I wanted to get the pic - .....for folks like you. It was a Rockwood 5vr. No, I wasn't going to poke around someone's trailer and try to pull the specs off the door. I wish my wife would have let me have her phone.

Just "another internet story?" I take offense to that since you are implying I'm lying; which I'm not. I don't need to sit around dreaming up things to put on this forum. I just thought it was interesting, and, I've never seen both tires blown on the back of a pickup towing a travel trailer of any kind just sitting there. I do understand the variables in various tow vehicles but SOMETHING caused both rear tires to fail on a flat, smooth pavement.

As I said in the original post, I put that out there as food for thought......for those that can think.

Well looked at specs on Rockwood Ultralite 5ers, they have a couple 32' 5ers that come in just under 10,000# GVWR, dry pins in the 1,400# to 1,500# and low payloads so loaded pins pushing 2,000#.
They also have a 31' that has a GVWR of less than 9,000#, still a
1,400# pin so maybe 1,700# to 1,800# loaded.
The big issue with the newer F150 is that the GVWR is very close to the total of the axle ratings, making possable to be within GVWR, but over rear axle rating.

With the newer F150 an easy way to get an idea of GVWR, is the number of Lugs, 5 lugs Grocery getter, 6 lugs max tow, or for newest could also be Max/Max, 7 lugs max/Max before the AL body.
Sourdough, never accused you of lying, just a story with few facts, you got close enough to state OEM tires, but the Max/Max came with LT tires, did the TV have OEM "P" rated tires?
Maybe it just wasn't owners day! Bad stuff comes in waves!

[the sodfather]

Well looked at specs on Rockwood Ultralite 5ers, they have a couple 32' 5ers that come in just under 10,000# GVWR, dry pins in the 1,400# to 1,500# and low payloads so loaded pins pushing 2,000#.
They also have a 31' that has a GVWR of less than 9,000#, still a
1,400# pin so maybe 1,700# to 1,800# loaded.
The big issue with the newer F150 is that the GVWR is very close to the total of the axle ratings, making possable to be within GVWR, but over rear axle rating.

With the newer F150 an easy way to get an idea of GVWR, is the number of Lugs, 5 lugs Grocery getter, 6 lugs max tow, or for newest could also be Max/Max, 7 lugs max/Max before the AL body.
Sourdough, never accused you of lying, just a story with few facts, you got close enough to state OEM tires, but the Max/Max came with LT tires, did the TV have OEM "P" rated tires?
Maybe it just wasn't owners day! Bad stuff comes in waves!

"7" lugs on a max/max...I'm guessing that's a typo...

[rhagfo]

"7" lugs on a max/max...I'm guessing that's a typo...

No it isn't, the pre aluminum bodied F150 had a 4,800# GAWR on the rear and it had 7 lugs. This went away with the aluminum bodied Max/Max.

[sourdough]

Well looked at specs on Rockwood Ultralite 5ers, they have a couple 32' 5ers that come in just under 10,000# GVWR, dry pins in the 1,400# to 1,500# and low payloads so loaded pins pushing 2,000#.
They also have a 31' that has a GVWR of less than 9,000#, still a
1,400# pin so maybe 1,700# to 1,800# loaded.
The big issue with the newer F150 is that the GVWR is very close to the total of the axle ratings, making possable to be within GVWR, but over rear axle rating.

With the newer F150 an easy way to get an idea of GVWR, is the number of Lugs, 5 lugs Grocery getter, 6 lugs max tow, or for newest could also be Max/Max, 7 lugs max/Max before the AL body.
Sourdough, never accused you of lying, just a story with few facts, you got close enough to state OEM tires, but the Max/Max came with LT tires, did the TV have OEM "P" rated tires?
Maybe it just wasn't owners day! Bad stuff comes in waves!

Didn't go to the trouble of pulling the Rockwood 5th wheel specs. Little brother has a new Rockwood Signature Ultra Lite that comes in right at 10k gvw. This one appeared to be as large as his. That would give it a 2k pin weight plus/minus. A lot for any 1/2 ton.

I did not poke around an unmanned truck/trailer because it's not right. I did look at the tires. I did not get down on the ground and try to read the sidewalls. There was a house about 75 yards up the hill looking straight at the road and I already felt uneasy getting out and nosing around the rig. I walked to the side, assessed that the tire was flat and had been damaged and just sort of looked over the combo walking back to the car.

My thought, when posting, and as food for thought, was that here is a 1/2 ton truck with a 5th wheel that has at least 2k on the pin. 2 tires are blown on the rear. What is the common denominator(s)? 1) high pin weight in the bed of a 1/2 ton truck and 2) probably P rated tires that come on nearly all 1/2 tons. A person can take what they want from that, pictures or not. It raises red flags to me and just reinforces the limitations of a 1/2 ton truck IMO.

[notanlines]

Danny, for the life of me I can't find anything to disagree with what you said. Now that makes three times in a row! :eek: But I will find fault in you not having nerve enough to crawl around and inspect the tires. Those of us in that age range should stick together and just say we lost our ......whatever comes to mind, and get up off our knees and go back to the truck.

[sourdough]

Danny, for the life of me I can't find anything to disagree with what you said. Now that makes three times in a row! :eek: But I will find fault in you not having nerve enough to crawl around and inspect the tires. Those of us in that age range should stick together and just say we lost our ......whatever comes to mind, and get up off our knees and go back to the truck.


Thanks Jim. I probably would have tried to assess the tires but I've had many surgeries on my knees. Last year marked the 6th on my right knee; 2 replacements, one removal for 3 months and a removal of a lot of leg bone due to infection damage. Squatting, crawling and bending the knees for "non essential" functions is a no no. I figured if someone pulled up and asked me, or the owner, I WAS going to go with the "I just lost my mind" kind of thing. And yes, now more than ever we "in this age range" should stick together.

[Bolo4u]

Heres a story about a colleague, and his very recent towing experience.

Back in April, I was talking with him about 5th wheels and such, and our much anticipated upcoming trip. He mentioned he had just purchased and was going to be taking delivery of, the following week, his new Montana 5r (I don't recall the model). I congratulated him and said he was going to love it! I asked him what he has for a TV. He told me a 2015 GMC Denali diesel 4x4... I'm sure my look of :eek: took him by surprise. We discussed weights and such. I explained to him my research regarding weights, GV/AWR's, and all the things I've learned and my experience with having had an undersized tow vehicle and the reasons I upgraded. He understood and said he would see how it goes. I did recommend to him going to a scale facility and weighing his truck, finding out what his payload limit was for his truck and how to generally calculate the pin weight of his 5r, so he would at least have an idea where he was, weight wise. Throughout the week, he would ask me different questions, and I could tell the gears were turning... we parted ways, and I wondered off and on over the weeks since, how his towing experience with his new 5r and his TV were going, but never got around to touching base with him.

Today, out of the blue, he sends me a picture of his BIG beautiful Montana hitched to a new TV... A Ford... dually!! with an attached text: I took your advice and got a dually. MUCH better than towing w/ my Denali. Thanks for all the info and help. Needless to say, I was taken aback... I humbly thanked him for updating me, and told him I had been wondering how things were going.

He replied on their first trip to San Diego and return, was sketchy at best. The Denali suspension was all over the place and made for a long and nervous trip there and back. He said this truck was night and day better, compared to the other.

I asked him if he ever had the chance to weigh the other truck while connected and he didn't, but he did weigh this setup. Dry weight of the truck 9220 (not sure if that included the ~150 hitch or not, or what cargo/passengers he may have had when weighed) rear axle 3980. The truck and trailer combined 23640, rear axle 7220, giving him a pin weight of 3240 (not sure if the hitch was on the dry truck or not), regardless, I'm confident he was overweight on his Denali by 1000 EASILY. Even he commented he was surprised how much more the pin weighed then the advertised 2810 (I don't know how much cargo he may have had when he weighed his new setup). He said he contemplated getting a SRW, but with the weights, he was happy he got a DRW. I again thanked him and challenged him to a tug-o-war with our trucks over an adult beverage :lol:

Moral of the story: Sometimes you may not know what effect/result down the road (pun intended) you might have with someone when casually discussing weights, TV's and their 5r/TT. In this case, my sharing the info I have learned (a lot from here) with him ahead of time at least planted a seed, which, after his very FIRST, first hand negative experience, caused him to re-evaluate his setup and change it for the better.

Hopefully it will help others too.

[JRTJH]

Thanks for sharing your friend's experiences. Many of us have "been there/done that" and fully understand and appreciate what he and what you "went through" with the tow vehicle learning curve. Far too many people are "manipulated by sales team experts" at the dealership and unfortunately, many of them take that sales pitch as "expert recommendations" from someone who really knows RV towing. Later, from sites like this, from experiences like the ones you've conveyed and from "seat of the pants" experience, they realize the reality of towing.

For some, planting a seed is all it takes to "open the door". For others, they'll never "get it" no matter how much anyone tries to use logic and reality. For most of us, I believe the experiences posted on this and other forums, at least causes some "critical thinking" and the result is that we all tow in safer roadways with more "user friendly" equipment.

Often it seems that the advice and the experiences comes across as preaching and the "noobie" reacts with resistance. Sometimes feelings are hurt, frustration shows through as anger and resentment. But, once the dust settles and tempers cool, more times than not, I've seen a new thread or a post in the "Let's See Your Tow Vehicle, Trailer or Rig" thread. It's those kinds of posts, the knowledge that "they listened", that makes it all seem "worth the effort"...

Thanks for sharing your friend's "learning curve"......

[captcolour]

I think another one of those that will "never get it". From the Ford SuperDuty forum:

"Read through about every post on towing here and have come to the conclusion that the stickers are BS. Haven't bought the 5th wheel toy hauler trailer yet, but looking at several options and looking for opinions from the experts.

Tow Vehicle: 2017 F-250 Lariat with Ultimate package, FX4 4x4 CCSB, 6.7L engine, 3J rear axle, 3.55 ratio, 20 in aluminum wheels with LT275/65R20E All terrains.
For Reference: Front GAWR - 5200 lbs Rear GAWR - 6340 lbs, Payload - 2178 lbs. Has tow tech bundle but not the HD Tow package.

Planned hitch is B&W Turnover ball with Companion Slider (20K rating) - about 300 lbs installed. Willing to add air bags to counter sag.

"Trailer: Under consideration are dry weights from 10,500 to 12,700 lbs with GVWR in the 15,500 to 17,000 lbs range. All the king pin weights are running 2250 - 3150 lbs. Ideal trailer would be 12,400 dry, 16,500 gross and 2,450 king pin. Will haul two 850 lb ATVs, plus associated crap...

Last towed a 16,000 lb GVWR 5th wheel, with 2009 F-350 CCLB, SRW, using B&W non-slider....never had a problem.

Bottomline - can my truck safely haul the ideal trailer listed above?? If I use the Ford numbers, the answer is no, simply due to king pin weight. Not looking for the legal answer...looking for the practical."

Last sentence sums it up. Obviously knows he is not close to being within weight limits. A few of us put up the warning signs, but there were more responses of what he was looking for I believe:
"Yes. The truck can safely handle that."
"Yes there is. It's because it's a 250 and underrated on the sticker to fill the class 2 truck segment. It has nothing to do with it's physical design."
"Ford rates it lower to stay in a certain class. Hook the trailer up and roll."
"I want to tow within the physical capabilities of the truck, not be restricted by some arbitrary legal numbers that aren't based on fact or engineering."
"you're good to go."
"legal, no but it can handle it just fine"
"Truck will handle it no problem."

Like I commented, I don't want him following behind me with that set-up.

[Bolo4u]

I like the, I towed a 16000 trailer with an F350 with no issue. And now he wants to tow a heavier trailer with a lighter truck...

You may not want to be in front of him, but if you're behind him, you can be a good witness, although you could be stuck behind the pile-up for awhile.


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[xrated]

Just a thought......."We are not only surrounded by idiots, we may in fact, be outnumbered!"

[66joej]

Just a thought......."We are not only surrounded by idiots, we may in fact, be outnumbered!"

Ain't that the truth!:D

[captcolour]

And then there is this gem:

"You're not paying attention and are ignoring the valid points about towing safety. Simply spouting off that being overweight makes a person dangerous is a stupid oversimplification of the realities of towing."

[Cardcathrn]

Ok now you all have me nervous. I have a chevy Silverado 1500 5.3L V8. with tow of 9200-9500 overall grand total of 15000 (truck and trailer) allowed. My new TT is 7704 dry and door says 8000. Also purchased the equalizer special hitch thing.
Had a really hard time finding the actual rear axle weight. Both chevy and rv assured I would be ok as long as I wasn't bringing along 2000 lbs of crud. Pretty much my husband and I only, maybe our dog.
Not full time rv'ers, more like weekenders etc.

[CWSWine]

When I asked the GMC commercial sales about GVWR that is the link they sent me.

http://www.gmc.com/gmc-life/how-to/understanding-gross-vehicle-weight-rating.html

This is the bottom line of the link above and the official statement from GMC.

"It's important to always abide by the GVWR specifically set for your GMC truck or SUV. In the course of vehicle development, professional engineers have extensively pushed these vehicles to their limits in order to keep you, your passengers, and your belongings safe and to avoid damage to your vehicle. Staying within these limits helps your truck, trailer, and travel remain safe."

[CWSWine]

Ok now you all have me nervous. I have a chevy Silverado 1500 5.3L V8. with tow of 9200-9500 overall grand total of 15000 (truck and trailer) allowed. My new TT is 7704 dry and door says 8000. Also purchased the equalizer special hitch thing.
Had a really hard time finding the actual rear axle weight. Both chevy and rv assured I would be ok as long as I wasn't bringing along 2000 lbs of crud. Pretty much my husband and I only, maybe our dog.
Not full time rv'ers, more like weekenders etc.

Safety is critical when towing an RV Trailer. This training video discusses the importance of understanding a Truck's ratings and how these ratings limit the size of the trailer that can be safely towed. You will be provided the tools and basic understanding needed to assist your endeavor to properly match a truck and trailer, so that you can enjoy RVing safely.

http://rvsafety.com/rv-education/matching-trucks-to-trailers

[rhagfo]

And then there is this gem:

"You're not paying attention and are ignoring the valid points about towing safety. Simply spouting off that being overweight makes a person dangerous is a stupid oversimplification of the realities of towing."

So true, XRated example of sway as he didn't have enough tongue weigh as it would take him over GVWR, had he filled or partials fill his TH's FW tank he would have been over GVWR, but likely due to a more correctly loaded TH more stable.
While it is better to tow within GVWR, just because one exceeds it doesn't automatically make one unsafe. Conversely just because one is towing under GVWR doesn't automatically make one "Safe".

[sourdough]

So true, XRated example of sway as he didn't have enough tongue weigh as it would take him over GVWR, had he filled or partials fill his TH's FW tank he would have been over GVWR, but likely due to a more correctly loaded TH more stable.
While it is better to tow within GVWR, just because one exceeds it doesn't automatically make one unsafe. Conversely just because one is towing under GVWR doesn't automatically make one "Safe".

rhagfo

You constantly advocate that folks SHOULD tow overweight. You, in your mind, have figured out a way to justify what you do; I don't know if you can't afford a proper vehicle or you just like to push the odds. Whatever it is, you should let folks that try to do the right thing....try to do it, without posting junk that could get folks hurt that don't know better.

[rhagfo]

rhagfo

You constantly advocate that folks SHOULD tow overweight. You, in your mind, have figured out a way to justify what you do; I don't know if you can't afford a proper vehicle or you just like to push the odds. Whatever it is, you should let folks that try to do the right thing....try to do it, without posting junk that could get folks hurt that don't know better.

I don't encourage others to tow overweight, but also understand that a TV can be Under GVWR and be unsafe, and be over GVWR and still be safe.
That is not encouraging overweight towing.

[sourdough]

I don't encourage others to tow overweight, but also understand that a TV can be Under GVWR and be unsafe, and be over GVWR and still be safe.
That is not encouraging overweight towing.


Thanks. I think that pretty much illustrates to members where your thinking is. Weights, laws etc. don't mean anything....it's pretty much the luck of the draw - or how YOU choose to interpret them??

[xrated]

So true, XRated example of sway as he didn't have enough tongue weigh as it would take him over GVWR, had he filled or partials fill his TH's FW tank he would have been over GVWR, but likely due to a more correctly loaded TH more stable.
While it is better to tow within GVWR, just because one exceeds it doesn't automatically make one unsafe. Conversely just because one is towing under GVWR doesn't automatically make one "Safe".

And just where do YOU propose that I put the motorcycles, toolbox, my built-in 30 gal. fuel tank, etc to be able to "properly" load my T.H. I'm thinking that none of that stuff is going to fit in the forward bedroom or living room/kitchen area. The available storage space is what it is, and where it's located. And yes, YOU DO propose towing overloaded....if that's what you end up with. Well, I don't follow that line of thinking and will do whatever is in my power to NOT be overloaded in any of the several categories.....GVWR, GCWR, Axle ratings front and rear, hitch ratings, .....NONE of them, not maybe one here or there......NONE OF THEM. And if you are overloaded in any one of them, and say it's OK, then you advocate towing overloaded, it's that simple....whether you admit to it or not.

One thing I agree with you about is that yes, you can be under in all the categories and still not be safe, but is more a function of being an unsafe driver, or simply not have your rig set up properly. But your rig cannot be set up properly if it's OVERLOADED. The very definition of overloaded means that you are not setup properly. And if you have no choices of where to store the things that you take/need, and are limited by the trailer's storage areas of where to put certain things, then you take actions, like I did to correct the situation that you find yourself in.....pretty simple!

And for you to get on here and state that it's "OK" to be overweight, is just wrong, especially for someone that knows better....but won't admit it. You and I obviously have different opinions about right and wrong, legal and illegal, proper loading and improper loading, but I can rest assured that if I ever have an accident with my truck/trailer while towing, the cause will never be that I am overloaded.......and that's something I can be proud of.

[captcolour]

Continuing the discussion from "over there" at the truck forum:

"Those forums (RV forums) are full of weight police fear mongers that arm chair engineer more than actually tow. Most of us won't go anywhere near them... Personally, I won't even read on RV forums, never mind post due to the lack of sense and sanity... I think you should be concerned with physical limitations. Legal issues are EXTREMELY rare and if they do happen AND are your fault, that's what insurance is for." [glad he isn't here!]

Or this "wisdom":

"The Manufacturers are just giving you recommendations, that's all. Ford doesn't make Law. The States and the Feds do. You get Dewey, Cheatum and Howe to sue me because I'm over a manufacturer's RECOMMENDED Load rating and the Judge will laugh him out of Court. Then I'll take everything he owns for filing a frivolous lawsuit. Now..... There is reckless and dangerous and that is certainly actionable. But just being a few pounds over a Manufacturers recommended weight, towing, whatever??"

No where on the stickers or in the manual does it say these weights are RECOMMENDATIONS!

[sourdough]

Continuing the discussion from "over there" at the truck forum:

"Those forums (RV forums) are full of weight police fear mongers that arm chair engineer more than actually tow. Most of us won't go anywhere near them... Personally, I won't even read on RV forums, never mind post due to the lack of sense and sanity... I think you should be concerned with physical limitations. Legal issues are EXTREMELY rare and if they do happen AND are your fault, that's what insurance is for." [glad he isn't here!]

Or this "wisdom":

"The Manufacturers are just giving you recommendations, that's all. Ford doesn't make Law. The States and the Feds do. You get Dewey, Cheatum and Howe to sue me because I'm over a manufacturer's RECOMMENDED Load rating and the Judge will laugh him out of Court. Then I'll take everything he owns for filing a frivolous lawsuit. Now..... There is reckless and dangerous and that is certainly actionable. But just being a few pounds over a Manufacturers recommended weight, towing, whatever??"

No where on the stickers or in the manual does it say these weights are RECOMMENDATIONS!


The quotes above illustrate the reason I use a truck forum for "truck" related stuff, not towing. For the most part they are ignorant of the nuances involved in towing - and they are obviously happy that way:)

[Outback 325BH]

... and this forum is filled with old guys that won't do anything unless some government sticker says it is ok.

Unless you aren't paying attention, 3/4-ton trucks are a unique animal. Don't be too quick to condemn unless unless you know all the facts. The sticker is NOT all the facts.

The truck forums have a much greater knowledge base in this regard. RV forums tend to be a bunch of nanny-staters that don't do anything unless .gov says it is ok and can't think for themselves.


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[vampress_me]

Well, it's nice to know we're all old GUYS, but I think I tore the stickers off and threw them away a while ago. Has something to do with living in the worst nanny-state of MN and rebelling against it here... :nonono:

Seriously, everyone has different opinions, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but do we have to get nasty about it? And maybe it's just because it's late, and I'm being "overly sensitive", and I'm still up getting texts from the hubby down at the camper telling me how nasty the storm is there. The same storm that just got done dumping 2.5" diameter hail on my parent's house and farm. But really?

[CaptnJohn]

I'm one of those old guys at 69 but don't feel old. Had an F250 with the 6.7 when I bought the Cougar 5er. I was over payload by a bunch. So, I traded for an F350 and just bought a Montana HC. Surely some of those posters on the truck forums would be pulling the Montana with the F250. Some maybe would try an F150. I have only one comment on those comments, you cannot fix stupid. Guess they would call me the weight police.

[xrated]

OK, help me out here (I have NO doubt you will), I'm 62 1/2 years old....am I an "old guy"? The other part about being being legal and falling within the weight ratings, I'm in on that one......I just need to know if I'm one of the Old Guys?

[Harleydodge]

OK, help me out here (I have NO doubt you will), I'm 62 1/2 years old....am I an "old guy"? The other part about being being legal and falling within the weight ratings, I'm in on that one......I just need to know if I'm one of the Old Guys?

Let's put it this way.
You're 40 years older (and wiser) than most of the "green-horns" that are posting on those "truck" Forums.:hide::popcorn:

[ctbruce]

We've been down this same road so many times and this issue never gets solved.

There are two issues here: can I tow it and should I tow it. The tower has to make the choice on these. People can chime in with their opinions, and they will, when asked these questions.

Those who have been there, me included, will always advocate for towing within the posted limits of the TV. Those who haven't been there will advocate that pushing the limits of the TV is ok, because they've done it, survived and it's ok.

For newbies, the forum will always advocate for towing within the limits. That's the safe and responsible thing to do for someone who asks. Telling someone who is inexperienced that sure they can do it is irresponsible. There is a huge difference between an experienced tower pulling overweight and an inexperienced tower pulling overweight. I for one could not and would not want to put someone in a situation they are not prepared for.

You may do it and feel comfortable doing it. But remember, they are not you. They have different life experiences, different talents, and different equipment. Just because you do it does not mean that everyone should do it. That's really the bottom line.

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[xrated]

... and this forum is filled with old guys that won't do anything unless some government sticker says it is ok.

Unless you aren't paying attention, 3/4-ton trucks are a unique animal. Don't be too quick to condemn unless unless you know all the facts. The sticker is NOT all the facts.

The truck forums have a much greater knowledge base in this regard. RV forums tend to be a bunch of nanny-staters that don't do anything unless .gov says it is ok and can't think for themselves.


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What's so unique about a 3/4T truck? It has a payload capacity, a GVWR, a GCWR, an axle weight rating front and rear, a trailer towing capacity weight rating, all the things that every other truck out there has. It has limits just like every other truck does. It doesn't sound unique to me!. The stickers and ratings are there for a reason. Whether you choose to abide by them or not is on you....but if you don't, that still doesn't change the ratings/capacities, just like airbags don't change the capacities of a truck. And so I'm curious....what are "The rest of the facts" that you speak of? Enlighten me/us!

[gkainz]

OK, help me out here (I have NO doubt you will), I'm 62 1/2 years old....am I an "old guy"? The other part about being being legal and falling within the weight ratings, I'm in on that one......I just need to know if I'm one of the Old Guys?

I'm 59 ... I think you're one of the "Old Guys" ... I think that officially happens when we revert to our single digit years method of counting age "adding the 'and a half' qualifier"? :)

I know ... Social Security causes that ... counting the days until we can start drawing on OUR MONEY that WE involuntarily contributed to a retirement system that has some how been categorized as "THEIR MONEY" now ...

:lol: Sorry ... didn't mean to get political!

[Outback 325BH]

What's so unique about a 3/4T truck? It has a payload capacity, a GVWR, a GCWR, an axle weight rating front and rear, a trailer towing capacity weight rating, all the things that every other truck out there has. It has limits just like every other truck does. It doesn't sound unique to me!. The stickers and ratings are there for a reason. Whether you choose to abide by them or not is on you....but if you don't, that still doesn't change the ratings/capacities, just like airbags don't change the capacities of a truck. And so I'm curious....what are "The rest of the facts" that you speak of? Enlighten me/us!



What is unique is, in many cases a 3/4-ton truck is the same truck as its 1-ton SRW sibling. Its 10,000 GVWR is a paper-only rating and is not an accurate reflection of its true abilities.

This has been discussed ad nauseam. Some agree, some don't.


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[xrated]

I'm 59 ... I think you're one of the "Old Guys" ... I think that officially happens when we revert to our single digit years method of counting age "adding the 'and a half' qualifier"? :)

I know ... Social Security causes that ... counting the days until we can start drawing on OUR MONEY that WE involuntarily contributed to a retirement system that has some how been categorized as "THEIR MONEY" now ...

:lol: Sorry ... didn't mean to get political!

OK, I'm going with that....I'm officially an "old guy". :D. I haven't started the SS yet, and hope to wait on that for a few more years.....maybe 2.7583 years! :lol:

[sourdough]

... and this forum is filled with old guys that won't do anything unless some government sticker says it is ok.

Unless you aren't paying attention, 3/4-ton trucks are a unique animal. Don't be too quick to condemn unless unless you know all the facts. The sticker is NOT all the facts.

The truck forums have a much greater knowledge base in this regard. RV forums tend to be a bunch of nanny-staters that don't do anything unless .gov says it is ok and can't think for themselves.


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Hmmm.....how does that old saying go? "Me thinks ye know not of what ye speak?"

I guess I have to admit being an old guy, but "nanny stater"; not hardly. Won't do anything unless a sticker tells me to....not hardly. Can't think for themselves? I can only laugh "at you" for saying something like that.

Your comments come from someone that hasn't been around long enough to have life slap you upside the head a few times for making bad decisions. Wait around, you'll see the light....hopefully. On the other hand, if you HAVE been around long enough to know better and still post comments like the above, well............

As far as truck forums and their knowledge base in the nuances of towing - ain't happening. If I want to know about the latest/greatest/bestest chip, exhaust system, cam, tire/wheel combo etc. I'll go there and ask. How much I can drop on a hitch...no. Reaction of a specific truck to a given load.....heck no.

I think harleydodge hit it on the head. The folks on this forum are about 40 years older, and more experienced, than the "greenhorns" on most truck forums. We've grown past the "I want the baddest, coolest, biggest tires I can get on my truck - even if they're 4" wider than what the rim allows" syndrome, the "what's the baddest sounding, LOUDEST muffler can I put on my truck to make is sound really bad", the "what mods can I make so my truck can lay an extra car length of rubber" syndromes as well. We're into the more mundane things of life; having fun with our campers and whatever else, taking the families along for the fun times and keeping everyone safe ON AN UNEVENTFUL TRIP without trying to cut corners. And no, a 3/4 ton is not a different animal. It is the animal it is and they are strictly defined. If you don't want THAT animal you need to pick another one. Not pretend your Chihuahua is a Doberman - and IF you are pretending I would suggest you never put your Chihuahua head to head with a real Doberman.

[Outback 325BH]

Hmmm.....how does that old saying go? "Me thinks ye know not of what ye speak?"



I guess I have to admit being an old guy, but "nanny stater"; not hardly. Won't do anything unless a sticker tells me to....not hardly. Can't think for themselves? I can only laugh "at you" for saying something like that.



Your comments come from someone that hasn't been around long enough to have life slap you upside the head a few times for making bad decisions. Wait around, you'll see the light....hopefully. On the other hand, if you HAVE been around long enough to know better and still post comments like the above, well............



As far as truck forums and their knowledge base in the nuances of towing - ain't happening. If I want to know about the latest/greatest/bestest chip, exhaust system, cam, tire/wheel combo etc. I'll go there and ask. How much I can drop on a hitch...no. Reaction of a specific truck to a given load.....heck no.



I think harleydodge hit it on the head. The folks on this forum are about 40 years older, and more experienced, than the "greenhorns" on most truck forums. We've grown past the "I want the baddest, coolest, biggest tires I can get on my truck - even if they're 4" wider than what the rim allows" syndrome, the "what's the baddest sounding, LOUDEST muffler can I put on my truck to make is sound really bad", the "what mods can I make so my truck can lay an extra car length of rubber" syndromes as well. We're into the more mundane things of life; having fun with our campers and whatever else, taking the families along for the fun times and keeping everyone safe ON AN UNEVENTFUL TRIP without trying to cut corners. And no, a 3/4 ton is not a different animal. It is the animal it is and they are strictly defined. If you don't want THAT animal you need to pick another one. Not pretend your Chihuahua is a Doberman - and IF you are pretending I would suggest you never put your Chihuahua head to head with a real Doberman.



On a 2016 model year, I have pulled axles and ping/pinion on F250 and F350 SRW trucks. Also compared part numbers. Also have verified at the parts counter. Also have verified spring codes.

On an F250 with the factory overload spring, it is the exact same truck as the F350 SRW. The difference between them is a GVWR of 10,000 (F250) and 11,500 (F350 SRW)... which is a paper difference and not a physical difference.

That is what I am saying. Blindly thinking a 3/4-ton is a different truck is not true in all cases.


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[Javi]

On a 2016 model year, I have pulled axles and ping/pinion on F250 and F350 SRW trucks. Also compared part numbers. Also have verified at the parts counter. Also have verified spring codes.

On an F250 with the factory overload spring, it is the exact same truck as the F350 SRW. The difference between them is a GVWR of 10,000 (F250) and 11,500 (F350 SRW)... which is a paper difference and not a physical difference.

That is what I am saying. Blindly thinking a 3/4-ton is a different truck is not true in all cases.


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In the eyes of the State of Texas and I'm sure many other states they are indeed very different trucks...

[Barbell]

Having towed a Montana with a 2500 and now a 3500, I can say several things. The 2500 was equipped with exhaust brake, air bags and a 6 speed manual. With a CTD, it had more than enough power. At nearly 200,000 miles, it still had the original brakes and they were not close to needing replacement. Air bags were used to level the units, not to increase load capacity. I have been driving trucks of all kinds since the early '60s including pickups towing trailers. While we never had a white knuckle moment with the 2500, we knew we were on the edge. In places like Vail pass and Slumgullion pass in Colorado, we were going really slow to maintain control and always did. With the 3500, we are not nearly as close to the edge. A newby with little experience towing might not be as lucky. The experienced truck driver can get away with a smaller, older tow vehicle. We still wonder at the new rigs going down the interstate at the posted limit, either 70 or 75 mph. Obviously a newby. Maybe they will learn without a life changing experience; maybe they won't.

[JRTJH]

On a 2016 model year, I have pulled axles and ping/pinion on F250 and F350 SRW trucks. Also compared part numbers. Also have verified at the parts counter. Also have verified spring codes.

On an F250 with the factory overload spring, it is the exact same truck as the F350 SRW. The difference between them is a GVWR of 10,000 (F250) and 11,500 (F350 SRW)... which is a paper difference and not a physical difference.

That is what I am saying. Blindly thinking a 3/4-ton is a different truck is not true in all cases.

My oh my, I go to bed early one night (yup, I'm an old fart) and wake up to this series of posts, reviving the "An F250 is really an F350 in drag" (you know, the females are not as strong as males argument) Not that I believe that, but it's the same kind of "YOU CAN'T WIN THIS ARGUMENT" argument......

EXCEPT that an F250 does not come equipped with the additional overload springs (unless optioned in either the towing package or the camper package or the snow plow package (<front axle HD springs>). There are significant differences in how the F250 is built depending on what options are included. The F350 comes standard with the overload springs. They aren't the same truck, but can be optioned with much of the same spring packages. In fact, an F250 "CAN BE" ordered with heavier springs than the "standard build F350". That doesn't make it a heavy duty F350, it's still limited to a 10K GVW. What it CAN carry and what it's CAPABLE of carrying are not the same.

As an added "water muddier", you can order an F350 with a GVW of 10K, 10.5K, 10.8K, 11K, 11.2K, 11.4K or 11.5K and they all come equipped with the same overload springs. That doesn't mean much, except for LEGAL considerations. Just like the F250 argument, it's the LEGAL not the physical capability that gets you a ticket and/or a lawsuit.

A rhetorical comment: Maybe that's why men can't legally compete in women's sporting events, they look the same but have different equipment, although they certainly have the physical capacity to compete, they "lack" in the legal aspects.....

[buffalobillh]

Maybe it's because I'm a youngster (48yoa) or just stupid (I'm not new to towing, so that can't be the reason), but why doesn't common sense dictate that you might not want to take unnecessary chances by being overloaded? The numbers from the manufacturers are not "guidelines." Aside from ego and bravado, why would someone jeopardize the safety of loved ones and expensive vehicles and equipment hurtling down the road at highway/near highway speeds, the lives and property of others notwithstanding? Can you old codgers ;) enlighten a poor waif like me why running overloaded is ever reasonable?

[sourdough]

There are a couple on here that might try to explain their rationalization, but, in the end, it's impossible to explain the inexplicable. You ask some very good, pertinent questions and the answer to them is really simple; there are no rational reasons to run overloaded other than those you alluded to, or, in some cases, finances, which I can understand. But even then, you shouldn't say it's OK because you don't believe all the printed restrictions, or it's "government" etc. But then again, I'm one of those "old guys" afraid of his shadow, unable to make a decision on his own praying for a nanny state every day ha! ha! LOL

[Frank G]

We've been down this same road so many times and this issue never gets solved.

There are two issues here: can I tow it and should I tow it. The tower has to make the choice on these. People can chime in with their opinions, and they will, when asked these questions.

Those who have been there, me included, will always advocate for towing within the posted limits of the TV. Those who haven't been there will advocate that pushing the limits of the TV is ok, because they've done it, survived and it's ok.

For newbies, the forum will always advocate for towing within the limits. That's the safe and responsible thing to do for someone who asks. Telling someone who is inexperienced that sure they can do it is irresponsible. There is a huge difference between an experienced tower pulling overweight and an inexperienced tower pulling overweight. I for one could not and would not want to put someone in a situation they are not prepared for.

You may do it and feel comfortable doing it. But remember, they are not you. They have different life experiences, different talents, and different equipment. Just because you do it does not mean that everyone should do it. That's really the bottom line.

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Of all the posts on the 3/4 - 1 ton subject this is the most sensible response written. Dealing with the GVWR sticker has been difficult for some, including myself.

[Outback 325BH]

So... if I pulled off the 11,500 GVWR sticker off of the F350 SRW and put on a 10,000 GVWR sticker, did the metallurgy change somehow? LOL... because that is the situation I am describing.

These discussions are so comical!


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[xrated]

Maybe it's because I'm a youngster (48yoa) or just stupid (I'm not new to towing, so that can't be the reason), but why doesn't common sense dictate that you might not want to take unnecessary chances by being overloaded? The numbers from the manufacturers are not "guidelines." Aside from ego and bravado, why would someone jeopardize the safety of loved ones and expensive vehicles and equipment hurtling down the road at highway/near highway speeds, the lives and property of others notwithstanding? Can you old codgers ;) enlighten a poor waif like me why running overloaded is ever reasonable?

As an "official" old codger (I've been voted in) I have a one sentence answer to your question.

"Common sense, is not very common these days"!

[Frank G]

So... if I pulled off the 11,500 GVWR sticker off of the F350 SRW and put on a 10,000 GVWR sticker, did the metallurgy change somehow? LOL... because that is the situation I am describing.

These discussions are so comical!


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Haven't you figured it out...It's all about the sticker! :facepalm:

[kfxgreenie]

A rhetorical comment: Maybe that's why men can't legally compete in women's sporting events, they look the same but have different equipment, although they certainly have the physical capacity to compete, they "lack" in the legal aspects.....

SSSSSSOOOOOOOOOOOO if one puts air bags on their 3/4 ton truck does that make it legal? It should be equivalent to Bruce Jenner going to Caitlyn Jenner 3/4 bagged = 1 Ton, both are now legal one to play in female sports the other to haul a load over 10,000 LB's. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:JUST TO MAKE CERTAIN THIS IS NOT TAKEN THE WRONG WAY THIS IS A JOKE

[sourdough]

Of all the posts on the 3/4 - 1 ton subject this is the most sensible response written. Dealing with the GVWR sticker has been difficult for some, including myself.

Dealing with the sticker limitations CAN be difficult if you didn't know about it and it's the first time you heard of it. I know it was for me. I grew up never thinking about weights; if you could get it on the truck or tractor and it would go, you were good. I did it when I was younger with a 1/4 ton Ford Ranger; until the load almost pushed me over a cliff. That's when I started paying attention to weights....and I still didn't know about "the sticker".

I've known about "the sticker" for many years now. It's there. It says what it says. I KNOW what it says before I buy the truck. It's the rule/law. I know I can disregard it and pull what I want; I also know that it's not only wrong to do so, but illegal. I choose to do the right, safe and legal thing. It's a mindset that we have to develop - sort of like having to drive 55 on a straight highway with no traffic......

[rhagfo]

We've been down this same road so many times and this issue never gets solved.

There are two issues here: can I tow it and should I tow it. The tower has to make the choice on these. People can chime in with their opinions, and they will, when asked these questions.

Those who have been there, me included, will always advocate for towing within the posted limits of the TV. Those who haven't been there will advocate that pushing the limits of the TV is ok, because they've done it, survived and it's ok.

For newbies, the forum will always advocate for towing within the limits. That's the safe and responsible thing to do for someone who asks. Telling someone who is inexperienced that sure they can do it is irresponsible. There is a huge difference between an experienced tower pulling overweight and an inexperienced tower pulling overweight. I for one could not and would not want to put someone in a situation they are not prepared for.

You may do it and feel comfortable doing it. But remember, they are not you. They have different life experiences, different talents, and different equipment. Just because you do it does not mean that everyone should do it. That's really the bottom line.

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Of all the posts on the 3/4 - 1 ton subject this is the most sensible response written. Dealing with the GVWR sticker has been difficult for some, including myself.


Could not agree more, CTBruce, has the correct read on the subject. One really needs a full understanding of how and why these GVWR are arrived at, if they are considering towing over their TV GVWR.

The biggest issues is educating those new to towing a trailer, the importance of tongue or pin weight is to stability and comfort towing.

[xrated]

So it seems after I dug up the spec sheet for the model year 2015 (pick another if you like), there are some other differences between the F250 and the F350 SRW. Granted, not a lot, but yes, there are some. The F350 SRW has a higher rear axle weight rating, the ring gear pitch is different, the rear axle shaft spline diameter is bigger on the F350 (read beefier)...even the number of splines is different. There may be some others, but I really didn't feel like spending my evening researching everything.

So, the above mentioned items seem to me that they would go a long way towards making the F350 SRW verifiably stronger than the F250 AND, it's not just a case of springs that are different. Something to consider for sure, and especially if you are inclined to ignore the manufacturer's weight rating capacities.

[Desert185]

Could not agree more, CTBruce, has the correct read on the subject. One really needs a full understanding of how and why these GVWR are arrived at, if they are considering towing over their TV GVWR.

The biggest issues is educating those new to towing a trailer, the importance of tongue or pin weight is to stability and comfort towing.

That eminent philosopher, Harry Callahan, opines:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_VrFV5r8cs0

[ctbruce]

Is Caitlin Jenner an old codger? <

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[xrated]

Is Caitlin Jenner an old codger? <

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I'm not sure that "codger" adequately describes it!.....but my comment would most likely get me booted for a while, so I'll just hold my cards on that one! :D

[sourdough]

Man, I really want to respond to that, but as xrated noted, everything I can think of would probably put me put in the hoosegow:lol::nonono:

[captcolour]

Sorry to get everyone stirred up. But this was a good discussion.

Other comments I have between the 3/4 ton and 1 ton (which I am not going to take the time to research): are the brakes the same (size, stopping distance, etc); overall weight of the vehicle differences (to avoid tail wagging the dog); other components that would impact towing safety? It is just not the axle or springs.

[captcolour]

One of the truckers posted about seeing a 5th wheel fall off a hitch to show there are more important risks than towing overweight. My point was the weight issue is #1 because it is controllable before you even make a purchase.

I did quickly point out that the person with the 5th wheel that came unhitched had probably gone to the hitch OEM forum and asked whether his 9.5K rated hitch could tow 15K, and was told "he was good to go" :D

[Tbos]

Ok now you all have me nervous. I have a chevy Silverado 1500 5.3L V8. with tow of 9200-9500 overall grand total of 15000 (truck and trailer) allowed. My new TT is 7704 dry and door says 8000. Also purchased the equalizer special hitch thing.

Had a really hard time finding the actual rear axle weight. Both chevy and rv assured I would be ok as long as I wasn't bringing along 2000 lbs of crud. Pretty much my husband and I only, maybe our dog.

Not full time rv'ers, more like weekenders etc.



My TT is 2000 lbs lighter than yours and I was within 200 lbs of my previous Silverado trucks rear axle weight and GVWR when loaded with the DW, me, the little dog and 2 light weight bikes in the bed. My truck was the same as yours. I've moved up to have more safety margin. IMHO I believe you are overweight on at least one of your ratings. Your truck loaded has a GVWR of 7200 your TT dry is 7704. 7704 + 7200 is 14904. Your GCWR is 15000. Granted some of that 7704 will be on the tongue and distributed on the truck. That's why I said your truck is probably weighing in at 7200. Bottom line is if you are not over on any numbers you are close. Hit the scales loaded as you would for a trip and see what you get. That is the only way to tell for sure.


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[Desert185]

My TT is 2000 lbs lighter than yours and I was within 200 lbs of my previous Silverado trucks rear axle weight and GVWR when loaded with the DW, me, the little dog and 2 light weight bikes in the bed. My truck was the same as yours. I've moved up to have more safety margin. IMHO I believe you are overweight on at least one of your ratings. Your truck loaded has a GVWR of 7200 your TT dry is 7704. 7704 + 7200 is 14904. Your GCWR is 15000. Granted some of that 7704 will be on the tongue and distributed on the truck. That's why I said your truck is probably weighing in at 7200. Bottom line is if you are not over on any numbers you are close. Hit the scales loaded as you would for a trip and see what you get. That is the only way to tell for sure.


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How much more safety margin do you feel comfortable having? If the GW limit is "X", then what margin below that is acceptable?

[Javi]

How much more safety margin do you feel comfortable having? If the GW limit is "X", then what margin below that is acceptable?

A better question might be... How much too much, is too much???

[Tbos]

Javi, Desert185,
Personally I think 10% is a good margin. I don't think you can ever have too much safety margin. Granted, it may not be the best/smartest use of the $$ needed to achieve that margin but in my case 200lbs could have been easily exceeded if I took additional gear or people with me. Additionally, it gave me a good excuse to upgrade the TV in preparation for a possible upgrade to a 5er next year.


2016 Passport GT 2810BHS, 2016 F350 CC DRW

[Ken / Claudia]

Answer to post #62. If you look up a build sheet on F250 and F350. When equipment of each is same, ei XLT etc. everything between the 2 trucks is the same except rear springs, spacer over springs and tires 8 ply vs 10 ply. When buying replacement brakes, axles bearings, there are the same part. I have checked this several times but, not since around 2008. When I purchased the listed truck, I checked the size of brakes on the f350 DRW, they listed the same brake size as my SRW. That was the season I went with the SRW, since I did not need the DRW for payload wt.. But, would have IF it had bigger, better brakes I would have got it.
And just to point out if you remove the White sticker(federal standards sticker) any cop can look up the VIN, all trucks have a vin position assigned to what the maker says the weight rating is.

[buffalobillh]

As an "official" old codger (I've been voted in) I have a one sentence answer to your question.

"Common sense, is not very common these days"!

I was waiting for that! 😂