2007 Keystone Copper Canyon 329 SAS on 2500 Cummins

[gui272]

I have a 2012 6.7 G56 quad cab short bed big Horn

I'm looking at this 5th wheel camper. What are your thoughts as far as weights?

9,260 empty
12,260 loaded
Rear entertainment center
Front king bed slide
Rear slide
Have super slide hitch for it

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[66joej]

The only issue you may have is the truck's payload. Add up pinweight,passengers,fuel and everything you carry. Towing that 5er should not be an issue.JMO

[gui272]

It appears as if payload will be close.

Is 15 or 20% recommended??

15% I'm good, 20% is tight.

Looking at doing some traveling with it for sure. Around the country.

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[sourdough]

Look at the payload sticker on the truck. That will be the limiting factor. Is it 2400 lbs or less? Figure that the pin on the trailer will be 2500 or more. Let us know.

[JRTJH]

With a trailer gross weight in the 12,260 range, your pin weight (20-25%) will range from around 2450-3065 pounds, depending on how you load the trailer. Your hitch will add about 200 pounds and you've not yet included any cargo or passengers in your truck. So, with the "factory imposed 10,000 pounds GVW" that Chrysler placed on your truck, you're going to be faced with whether to abide by the "LEGAL" load limits or ignore the yellow sticker and follow the practice that your truck is "really almost the same as a one ton". If you choose the latter, you may face additional risks for legal action if you're ever involved in an accident.

I'd guess that your truck payload is somewhere around 2500 pounds, with the hitch installed, that trailer will very likely put you over the "legal load limit". Mechanically, the truck/Cummins combo has more than enough "guts" to tow it, the question becomes: Are you willing to accept the legal risks of carrying so much weight, probably over your truck's listed payload?

[gui272]

With a trailer gross weight in the 12,260 range, your pin weight (20-25%) will range from around 2450-3065 pounds, depending on how you load the trailer. Your hitch will add about 200 pounds and you've not yet included any cargo or passengers in your truck. So, with the "factory imposed 10,000 pounds GVW" that Chrysler placed on your truck, you're going to be faced with whether to abide by the "LEGAL" load limits or ignore the yellow sticker and follow the practice that your truck is "really almost the same as a one ton". If you choose the latter, you may face additional risks for legal action if you're ever involved in an accident.

I'd guess that your truck payload is somewhere around 2500 pounds, with the hitch installed, that trailer will very likely put you over the "legal load limit". Mechanically, the truck/Cummins combo has more than enough "guts" to tow it, the question becomes: Are you willing to accept the legal risks of carrying so much weight, probably over your truck's listed payload?
So, 20 to 25% is pin weight.

I was hoping for 15 to 20

That gets me to better numbers. 25% would be to much for sure.

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[JRTJH]

I've found that a 15% pin weight is almost non-existent. Most people use 20% as the "go to pin weight target" and some "front heavy fivers" (think king bed, washer/dryer, etc fit that category) will be closer to 25%.

Here's what etrailer has to say about it. https://www.etrailer.com/question-105598.html

If you do a google search using: "How do I calculate a fifth wheel RV pin weight?" you'll get a number of hits, almost all that specify 20% or greater.

[gui272]

I've found that a 15% pin weight is almost non-existent. Most people use 20% as the "go to pin weight target" and some "front heavy fivers" (think king bed, washer/dryer, etc fit that category) will be closer to 25%.

Here's what etrailer has to say about it. https://www.etrailer.com/question-105598.html

If you do a google search using: "How do I calculate a fifth wheel RV pin weight?" you'll get a number of hits, almost all that specify 20% or greater.
Thanks! It's crazy how ram under rates when compared to other manufacturers of the same year or even one year newer which is the same truck. A 2013 goes up 600 lbs and trailer weight goes up 4,000 lbs.

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[JRTJH]

...A 2013 goes up 600 lbs and trailer weight goes up 4,000 lbs.

I think you're looking at "advertising figures" in a brochure to get those numbers. ALL the manufacturers use the base model (without options) to get the "maximum payload" and "maximum trailer weight" specs. You'll probably never find a truck on a dealer's lot that has those numbers on the yellow sticker.

Remember that Maximum Trailer Weight Rating is based on an empty truck to meet GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating). As you increase the weight of the tow vehicle, you must deduct that same weight from the trailer so the GCWR remains constant. In other words, a GCWR of 22000 pounds with a truck weighing 7500 pounds would give you a maximum trailer rating of 14500 pounds. Load the truck with passengers, hitch, cargo to 10000 pounds (GVWR for all 3/4 ton trucks) and you'll see that to meet a 22000 pound GCWR, the maximum trailer can only weigh 12,000 pounds.

It's all in the marketing division of Chrysler, not in the engineering division. If you read the towing guides carefully, you'll see a footnote that states, "Base model towing".... They all do it, so the only "real world numbers" that you can rely on are the ones that are on the specific truck that you'll use. Read the PAYLOAD for that truck off of the yellow sticker. If you use some advertisement or towing guide, you'll probably get inaccurate information.....

[gui272]

I think you're looking at "advertising figures" in a brochure to get those numbers. ALL the manufacturers use the base model (without options) to get the "maximum payload" and "maximum trailer weight" specs. You'll probably never find a truck on a dealer's lot that has those numbers on the yellow sticker.

Remember that Maximum Trailer Weight Rating is based on an empty truck to meet GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating). As you increase the weight of the tow vehicle, you must deduct that same weight from the trailer so the GCWR remains constant. In other words, a GCWR of 22000 pounds with a truck weighing 7500 pounds would give you a maximum trailer rating of 14500 pounds. Load the truck with passengers, hitch, cargo to 10000 pounds (GVWR for all 3/4 ton trucks) and you'll see that to meet a 22000 pound GCWR, the maximum trailer can only weigh 12,000 pounds.

It's all in the marketing division of Chrysler, not in the engineering division. If you read the towing guides carefully, you'll see a footnote that states, "Base model towing".... They all do it, so the only "real world numbers" that you can rely on are the ones that are on the specific truck that you'll use. Read the PAYLOAD for that truck off of the yellow sticker. If you use some advertisement or towing guide, you'll probably get inaccurate information.....
The number change is spec to spec, meaning the same truck 2012 to 2013.

Quad cab 4x4 manual trans SLT model.

Ratings went up from 2012 to 2013. Both are 4th generation trucks.

I do understand what your saying though.

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[Bolo4u]

Here's what I wrote in a thread, related to your situation.... been there too.

Having received a lot of good, helpful info here i was in a similar dilemma, heres a post i wrote for another forum, which ~may~ help. This is just my situation...


I was in a very similar situation, heres my story. Im going to throw a bunch of numbers out, but these are my real world numbers with a few approximates.


Prior TV 2015 Ram 2500 4x4 CTD QC SB (GVWR 10k, front axle 6000, rear axle 6500, *** PAYLOAD sticker 2050*** passengers and cargo)


Purchased a 2016 Cougar 5th wheel GVWR 12050,


Because of the short box, I needed a slider ~250 pounds


On the way to pick up the 5r, I stopped at a CAT scale and weighed my truck: myself, my dad, full fuels and NOTHING else 8400 (front 5140, rear 3260) GVWR 10000 - 8400 = ***1600 available payload (reference the payload sticker info above)


Picked up the hitch, and 5r and stopped at the same CAT scale on the way home, filled up with fuel, and reweighed: myself, dad, hitch and EMPTY 5r (except dealer included things like batteries, propane, power cord, and the items the 5r came equipped with) total weight 19440 (front 5180 +40 pounds, ***rear 5540 +2280 pounds*** ~250 pounds of that is hitch weight, leaving ~1980 as pin weight, trailer axle 8720, so subtracting my original truck weight plus the hitch from the final scale ticket, put the 5r DRY weight as picked up from dealer at about 10790, figuring the universal pin weight ratios of anywhere between 20 and 25%


Now if you were to load the a 5r to its full GCWR (12050 in my case) 20% pin is 2410, and 25% pin is 3012.


Now add a 250 hitch, your 125 DW, a 180 pounds of kiddos, the Chihuahua, all your fuel, firewood, and anything else you want to take and you can see how it QUICKY puts you *legally* over weight... Remember the payload sticker earlier?? The EMPTY truck can *legally* carry only 2050 pounds BEFORE passengers, cargo hitch etc. (loaded trailer 20% pin 2410+250+125+180+200(misc stuff in the bed) = 3160 - 2050 = 1115 OVERWEIGHT


Did the truck sag when I hooked the dry trailer up? it dropped about 2", no big deal and it towed great from the dealer to home, then a few days later home to where its currently parked.


Was I still within the axel and tire limits? Yes. Could/did my truck *safely* pull the extra weight? Ye. Would I have never had an enforcement issue, or situation where being overweight could have put me in civil liability? Maybe.


I do work for an enforcement entity and YES you CAN be parked for being overweight and would have to make arraignments to get below your weight. In a real world scenario, would that actually happen, probably not, at least not in California, however, other states may be different. Also, not to detract from the purpose of this thread, in California, unless you have a class A (commercial) license, you DO need to get an RV endorsement to tow any 5th wheel weighing over 10000 GVWR but below 15000 GVWR.


I spent several weeks crunching numbers, researching forums, and tried to justify it in my mind that my truck was going to be just fine for the trailer we have. We have planned about a 4 week trip this summer into Oregon, Washington, Montana and back. While I knew I would not likely have an issue in California, I wasn't sure about the other states, and I didn't want that worry in the back of my mind, and I also didn't want to have the worry about any civil/legal issues if something were to happen.


Yes there is the belief the 10000 GVWR is an arbitrary limit for various reasons; yes, a lot of the components on the 2500 are the same as the 3500SWR, but in the end, in my mind it just wasn't worth the worry or concern about the "what-ifs". And I knew that NONE of the internet lawyers we see all over the various forums were going to offer their services and be willing to testify on my behalf as to how my truck, being ~1000 pounds overweight (legal limits) was not a factor if something was deemed to be my fault.


I remedied my concern at the end of March when I traded in my 2015 Ram 2500 CTD 4x4 QC SB Laramie Granite Crystal (I loved that truck) for a 2017 3500 DRW CTD 4x4 QC LB Laramie in Pearl White. Luckily I had significant equity in my truck that I was able to swing the deal, and my payment didn't change... I now don't won't have that worry when we're on our trip, and in the future, when we upgrade to a larger 5r, I'll already have the truck.


Do yourself a big favor, research the snot out of weights (both trucks and trailers) know your facts, percentages and figures when you go in. When you look at trucks, ask to see the door stickers. When I looked, I didnt look at the FMVSS sticker, I looked at the white/yellow payload sticker. I already knew the truck GVWR, my hitch weight, and how much my prior truck weighed. The truck I have now has a dry payload of 5650 (3600 more than the other truck?!)


Your research and figuring numbers will pay off now if your get the right truck to start, instead of wondering while on a long trip if the red and blue lights you see in your mirror may result in an overweight citation, or sitting parked on the shoulder dumping water from your holding tank...


https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ekeystoneforums%2E com%2Fforums%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Fp%3D234546&share_tid=28364&share_fid=38313&share_type=t&share_pid=234546


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[JRTJH]

And those numbers all reflect "best advertising practices" with model year changes that affect vehicle weight, different rear axle configurations, different standards on which the ratings were established (SAE vs corporate ratings, etc). At any rate, it doesn't much matter what ratings a 2013 has if you own a 2012 vehicle.

[gui272]

Here's what I wrote in a thread, related to your situation.... been there too.

Having received a lot of good, helpful info here i was in a similar dilemma, heres a post i wrote for another forum, which ~may~ help. This is just my situation...


I was in a very similar situation, heres my story. Im going to throw a bunch of numbers out, but these are my real world numbers with a few approximates.


Prior TV 2015 Ram 2500 4x4 CTD QC SB (GVWR 10k, front axle 6000, rear axle 6500, *** PAYLOAD sticker 2050*** passengers and cargo)


Purchased a 2016 Cougar 5th wheel GVWR 12050,


Because of the short box, I needed a slider ~250 pounds


On the way to pick up the 5r, I stopped at a CAT scale and weighed my truck: myself, my dad, full fuels and NOTHING else 8400 (front 5140, rear 3260) GVWR 10000 - 8400 = ***1600 available payload (reference the payload sticker info above)


Picked up the hitch, and 5r and stopped at the same CAT scale on the way home, filled up with fuel, and reweighed: myself, dad, hitch and EMPTY 5r (except dealer included things like batteries, propane, power cord, and the items the 5r came equipped with) total weight 19440 (front 5180 +40 pounds, ***rear 5540 +2280 pounds*** ~250 pounds of that is hitch weight, leaving ~1980 as pin weight, trailer axle 8720, so subtracting my original truck weight plus the hitch from the final scale ticket, put the 5r DRY weight as picked up from dealer at about 10790, figuring the universal pin weight ratios of anywhere between 20 and 25%


Now if you were to load the a 5r to its full GCWR (12050 in my case) 20% pin is 2410, and 25% pin is 3012.


Now add a 250 hitch, your 125 DW, a 180 pounds of kiddos, the Chihuahua, all your fuel, firewood, and anything else you want to take and you can see how it QUICKY puts you *legally* over weight... Remember the payload sticker earlier?? The EMPTY truck can *legally* carry only 2050 pounds BEFORE passengers, cargo hitch etc. (loaded trailer 20% pin 2410+250+125+180+200(misc stuff in the bed) = 3160 - 2050 = 1115 OVERWEIGHT


Did the truck sag when I hooked the dry trailer up? it dropped about 2", no big deal and it towed great from the dealer to home, then a few days later home to where its currently parked.


Was I still within the axel and tire limits? Yes. Could/did my truck *safely* pull the extra weight? Ye. Would I have never had an enforcement issue, or situation where being overweight could have put me in civil liability? Maybe.


I do work for an enforcement entity and YES you CAN be parked for being overweight and would have to make arraignments to get below your weight. In a real world scenario, would that actually happen, probably not, at least not in California, however, other states may be different. Also, not to detract from the purpose of this thread, in California, unless you have a class A (commercial) license, you DO need to get an RV endorsement to tow any 5th wheel weighing over 10000 GVWR but below 15000 GVWR.


I spent several weeks crunching numbers, researching forums, and tried to justify it in my mind that my truck was going to be just fine for the trailer we have. We have planned about a 4 week trip this summer into Oregon, Washington, Montana and back. While I knew I would not likely have an issue in California, I wasn't sure about the other states, and I didn't want that worry in the back of my mind, and I also didn't want to have the worry about any civil/legal issues if something were to happen.


Yes there is the belief the 10000 GVWR is an arbitrary limit for various reasons; yes, a lot of the components on the 2500 are the same as the 3500SWR, but in the end, in my mind it just wasn't worth the worry or concern about the "what-ifs". And I knew that NONE of the internet lawyers we see all over the various forums were going to offer their services and be willing to testify on my behalf as to how my truck, being ~1000 pounds overweight (legal limits) was not a factor if something was deemed to be my fault.


I remedied my concern at the end of March when I traded in my 2015 Ram 2500 CTD 4x4 QC SB Laramie Granite Crystal (I loved that truck) for a 2017 3500 DRW CTD 4x4 QC LB Laramie in Pearl White. Luckily I had significant equity in my truck that I was able to swing the deal, and my payment didn't change... I now don't won't have that worry when we're on our trip, and in the future, when we upgrade to a larger 5r, I'll already have the truck.


Do yourself a big favor, research the snot out of weights (both trucks and trailers) know your facts, percentages and figures when you go in. When you look at trucks, ask to see the door stickers. When I looked, I didnt look at the FMVSS sticker, I looked at the white/yellow payload sticker. I already knew the truck GVWR, my hitch weight, and how much my prior truck weighed. The truck I have now has a dry payload of 5650 (3600 more than the other truck?!)


Your research and figuring numbers will pay off now if your get the right truck to start, instead of wondering while on a long trip if the red and blue lights you see in your mirror may result in an overweight citation, or sitting parked on the shoulder dumping water from your holding tank...


https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ekeystoneforums%2E com%2Fforums%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Fp%3D234546&share_tid=28364&share_fid=38313&share_type=t&share_pid=234546


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Very good information. Unfortunately I just got the truck. I really don't want a dually for my daily driver. We do plan on doing some serious driving though with the RV.

Maybe I'll have to travel dry and put some weight behind the trailer axle to keep the pin weight down.

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[sourdough]

Very good information. Unfortunately I just got the truck. I really don't want a dually for my daily driver. We do plan on doing some serious driving though with the RV.

Maybe I'll have to travel dry and put some weight behind the trailer axle to keep the pin weight down.

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Making it "light" on the pin can make for some erratic/dangerous towing behaviors. Did you ever look at the payload on the truck sticker?

[gui272]

Making it "light" on the pin can make for some erratic/dangerous towing behaviors. Did you ever look at the payload on the truck sticker?
Yes, looked at payload of truck sticker. RV came up after I got the truck or I would have looked for a 3500 srw truck.

By light I'm saying 20% instead of 25% to keep some weight off it.

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[Javi]

Very good information. Unfortunately I just got the truck. I really don't want a dually for my daily driver. We do plan on doing some serious driving though with the RV.

Maybe I'll have to travel dry and put some weight behind the trailer axle to keep the pin weight down.

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Good luck... that's about all anyone can say at this point...

[JRTJH]

Well, at this point, you're pretty much faced with a choice:

1. Buy that fifth wheel with the knowledge that you're going to be towing over the "legal payload" of your truck... or

2. Don't buy that fifth wheel and start looking for something that is light enough/small enough to tow within the "legal payload" of your truck.

I'd say that the combination, your current truck and that fifth wheel simply won't fit within what Chrysler established as ratings for your truck.

[Tbos]

There are most likely some used rigs out there you would like that will be within your legal limits. Hope it all works out for you and you have safe and enjoyable travels.


2016 Passport GT 2810BHS, 2016 F350 CC DRW

[rhagfo]

I have a 2012 6.7 G56 quad cab short bed big Horn

I'm looking at this 5th wheel camper. What are your thoughts as far as weights?

9,260 empty
12,260 loaded
Rear entertainment center
Front king bed slide
Rear slide
Have super slide hitch for it

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Nice TV, and Nice 5er, now you need to make a decision that only you can make. Do you want to and feel safe towing over the TV stated GVWR. Your 2012 Ram likely doesn't even have a 10,000# GVWR, likely 9,200# or maybe 9,600# before 2013 Ram was very conservative with their GVWR.
Yep, that 2500, and a 3500 SRW pretty much same same.

I will tell you this is not a recommendation, but it is what works for me.
2001 Ram 2500 with Tow and Camper Packages,
5,200# front GAWR
6,082# rear GAWR (based of standard 245/75-16 E @ 3,042# ea.)
Optional 265/75-16E tires and rims rated at 3,415# ea.
I carry/tow a 2005 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS at 9,820# Dry, and GVWR of 12,360# currently at about 11,500#.

I will say well within axle ratings both front and rear, if I felt uncomfortable I would likely step up to a 3500 DRW, as the 3500 SRW is basically the same truck.

FYI:, our 5er is a rear kitchen, so tends to be pin lite, which can contribute to "Chucking" my FW tank is just forward of the front axle, so I usually find the ride smoother, FW tank full.


This is the package loaded other than the camper package just a set of Bilstein 5100 shocks.

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_234998_0_857a2bf4b9c212b4ee31a209795e0a64.jpg

These are the type of roads I drive with confidence with this package, at the 55 mph speed limit or better.

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_234998_1_cca8aa714a27f20d225318eca6540cbf.jpg

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_234998_2_c18c94c53659c3980c05e8c4ba28eccc.jpg

Once again it is your choice to tow over GVWR, just make sure you understand what is involved.

Taking cover! :hide:

[Bolo4u]

I was lucky, and learned my lesson, before it was taught....


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[saturn450]

I had a 2016 f250 and bought a 3811 Montana and everybody said don't worry about it will handle it just put in some air bags. After weighing my truck at 8100 pounds that just left me 1900 pounds for my pin weight. the trailer I was going to get was 2750. That was to far over for my comfort. I was able to trade my 250 in for what I paid for it and got a 350 srw. I feel a lot better. I weighed my truck and trailer and my pin weight was 3400 and trailer was under 12000. I'm about 100 pounds over my rating instead of 1500 with the 250.


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[PARAPTOR]

3400 lb pin weight for a trailer less than 12K ?? Seems very high. Do we gave the correct numbers?

Congrats on your new 3500 !!

[66joej]

^ Agree. That puts your pin weight at about 30%. Seems high. Are you heavily loaded in the front basement?

[rhagfo]

I had a 2016 f250 and bought a 3811 Montana and everybody said don't worry about it will handle it just put in some air bags. After weighing my truck at 8100 pounds that just left me 1900 pounds for my pin weight. the trailer I was going to get was 2750. That was to far over for my comfort. I was able to trade my 250 in for what I paid for it and got a 350 srw. I feel a lot better. I weighed my truck and trailer and my pin weight was 3400 and trailer was under 12000. I'm about 100 pounds over my rating instead of 1500 with the 250.


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:facepalm:

Well if you 5er is under 12,000, you must have a couple big bags of Helium in it!! Maybe under 12,000# on the axles.

The other thing is you should have gotten a F350 DRW, as all you really did going from an F250 to a F350 SRW is get a door sticker with a slightly higher rear GAWR (tires) and a higher GVWR, there is really no difference in components other than that!!

Here are the specs on you 5er, you really need a F350 DRW to carry/pull a 5er with a 16,705# GVWR!

Specs for 3811MS
Shipping Weight 13,400
Carrying Capacity 3,305
Hitch 2,705
Length 40' 9"

[JRTJH]

The stats on the 2017 3811MS:

empty weight: 13400

cargo capacity: 3305

GVW: 16,705

empty pin weight:2705

Empty pin weight range (20-25%) is 2680 - 3350

GVW pin weight range is 3341 - 4176

I'm not sure where saturn450 got the 12,000 pound "trailer weight" unless he might possibly be referring to the axle weight of 12,000 with 3,400 pounds on the pin ??? That would be a total trailer weight of 15,400 and would put his 3,400 pound pin weight at 22% which would be "right in the middle".....

Just my "speculation of what could be" with no concrete evidence of what saturn450 posted......

[Craigidyllwild]

I'm new to 5th wheeling. What I'm trying to figure out is how you add 3000 pounds to the 9260 empty weight....seems like a lot of stuff. So I guess I need to understand what empty weight really means. I'm going to guess that with all the tanks full..you would add about 1200, Leaving 1800 lbs for gear? Am I even close on this?

[saturn450]

That was the axle weight on the trailer. Sorry for the confusion. The weight if the truck was before I put the hitch end and I added a generator to the trailer. I ran it over the scales hook up and my rear axle weight was about 3400 pounds heavier. Without the hitch and generator the pin weight of the trailer would be around 2800. Which is what the manufacturer says. My point was the trailer was way too. much for a 250 but you see a lot of 250 pulling that size of trailer. I'm glade I went with a 350.


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[rhagfo]

That was the axle weight on the trailer. Sorry for the confusion. The weight if the truck was before I put the hitch end and I added a generator to the trailer. I ran it over the scales hook up and my rear axle weight was about 3400 pounds heavier. Without the hitch and generator the pin weight of the trailer would be around 2800. Which is what the manufacturer says. My point was the trailer was way too. much for a 250 but you see a lot of 250 pulling that size of trailer. I'm glade I went with a 350.


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But as pointed out earlier at 16,700# GVWR on that fiver it is also too much for a F350 SRW.

On Edit: It is amazing just how much better the same TV tow a 5er when the only real difference is the sticker on the "B" pillar. That and maybe standard tires, that are optional on a F250. :facepalm:

[gui272]

Skipped on that one. Found a lighter one that meets the need.

Thanks for the help guys!

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[PARAPTOR]

Skipped on that one. Found a lighter one that meets the need.

Thanks for the help guys!

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Congrats !!! When you get a chance let us know what you ended up with and how you like it (ty)

Be Safe and happy Camping :campfire:

[ctbruce]

Agreed. Good luck!

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