Springdale 253fwre hitch weight

[kennyskywalker]

I called Keystone about the hitch weight listed in the brochure, I was told that the hitch weight is based on total trailer gvwr (all in) and thats 10300. At 15% that equals 1500lbs, it just seems extremely low for hitch weight fully loaded and there was no mention of shifting load to back of trailer although there is no storage in back its all up front. Any thoughts on this?

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[busterbrown]

Ideally, the weight on the receiver of the tow vehicle should be 10-15% of the trailer's weight when completely loaded. This includes propane, batteries, and hitch. Your trailer's total weight when loaded may be less than the GVWR as you may not be at the maximum limit. It's safe to say that 1500 LBS as tongue weight would be the maximum you should be at. So your numbers are correct. If you pack lighter, you'll be lighter on the TW. Good advice is to load heavy items spaced evenly over the axles, not necessarily in the rear or up front. This will essentially keep your gvw numbers more proportional with tongue weight, and give you a better towing experience.

[sourdough]

I called Keystone about the hitch weight listed in the brochure, I was told that the hitch weight is based on total trailer gvwr (all in) and thats 10300. At 15% that equals 1500lbs, it just seems extremely low for hitch weight fully loaded and there was no mention of shifting load to back of trailer although there is no storage in back its all up front. Any thoughts on this?

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I'm wondering what is going on with the listed tongue weight on your trailer? Looking at the website for Springdales the tongue weight for your model is much higher than the rest of the models; it is actually 15% of the GVW while the others look like the typical dry tongue weight of a trailer (much less than 15% of gvw). I'm wondering if it's a typo on their part, you have some sort of configuration that gives you a really high tongue weight or ?? Regardless, I think the 15% should be more than enough to calculate. Our trailer is 10k and we run a 12xx lb hitch weight and she pulls like a dream (if something doesn't fly off:facepalm:).

[JRTJH]

The 253FWRE is a fifth wheel. As such, the pin weight should range between 15-25% of trailer weight. The specs on the trailer (west coast edition) indicate a shipping weight (empty trailer weight) of 8530 with a pin weight of 1500. That's a pin weight of about 17.5%, in the acceptable range for fifth wheels. With a GVW of 10,300, the pin weight should range between 1545 and 2575.

With the limited storage behind the axles, it will be difficult to keep the pin weight on the "lower end" of the acceptable range. I'd suspect that you're going to be approaching 2000 pounds pin weight on most trips, assuming you load like most fifth wheel owners, which means, "take what you want and fill the water tank at least half full".....

Based on what you were told at Keystone, I'd guess that either the person you spoke with didn't understand your question (and gave you incorrect information) or you didn't understand what they were saying. The specifications listed in the brochure and on the website are for the EMPTY trailer, no propane, no battery, as shipped from the factory. When you pick it up from the dealer with full propane tanks, one battery and a full water tank (52 gal @ 8.3/gal) you will have added 60 + 50 + 431 = 541 pounds to the empty weight of 8530 for a towing weight of 9071. That will give you a pin weight ranging between 1360 - 2267 for your first tow home.

[busterbrown]

My bad. Didn't look up the model nor realize it was a 5er. All this talk about 15% was a bit misleading. 20% I thought was ideal for the hitch pin.

[sourdough]

The 253FWRE is a fifth wheel. As such, the pin weight should range between 15-25% of trailer weight. The specs on the trailer (west coast edition) indicate a shipping weight (empty trailer weight) of 8530 with a pin weight of 1500. That's a pin weight of about 17.5%, in the acceptable range for fifth wheels. With a GVW of 10,300, the pin weight should range between 1545 and 2575.

With the limited storage behind the axles, it will be difficult to keep the pin weight on the "lower end" of the acceptable range. I'd suspect that you're going to be approaching 2000 pounds pin weight on most trips, assuming you load like most fifth wheel owners, which means, "take what you want and fill the water tank at least half full".....

Based on what you were told at Keystone, I'd guess that either the person you spoke with didn't understand your question (and gave you incorrect information) or you didn't understand what they were saying. The specifications listed in the brochure and on the website are for the EMPTY trailer, no propane, no battery, as shipped from the factory. When you pick it up from the dealer with full propane tanks, one battery and a full water tank (52 gal @ 8.3/gal) you will have added 60 + 50 + 431 = 541 pounds to the empty weight of 8530 for a towing weight of 9071. That will give you a pin weight ranging between 1360 - 2267 for your first tow home.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: No wonder the weight looked so out of whack!! I pulled up Springdale travel trailers and that is what nearly all of them are. After going back to look they put the 253fwre smack in the middle of the TT list. My bad. I wasn't expecting a 5vr there but should have looked.....and then it all makes sense:o Sorry for the confusion.

[JRTJH]

No reason to feel sorry about confusion... Heck, I'm pretty sure I've confused as many people as anyone on the forum, so you might as well "join the crowd" :angel:

My concern is the "understanding" that the OP got from Keystone when he talked to them. The way he explained the conversation sure does sound like they gave him some "bad advice"... Hopefully it didn't cause any significant problems.

[kennyskywalker]

The 253FWRE is a fifth wheel. As such, the pin weight should range between 15-25% of trailer weight. The specs on the trailer (west coast edition) indicate a shipping weight (empty trailer weight) of 8530 with a pin weight of 1500. That's a pin weight of about 17.5%, in the acceptable range for fifth wheels. With a GVW of 10,300, the pin weight should range between 1545 and 2575.

With the limited storage behind the axles, it will be difficult to keep the pin weight on the "lower end" of the acceptable range. I'd suspect that you're going to be approaching 2000 pounds pin weight on most trips, assuming you load like most fifth wheel owners, which means, "take what you want and fill the water tank at least half full".....

Based on what you were told at Keystone, I'd guess that either the person you spoke with didn't understand your question (and gave you incorrect information) or you didn't understand what they were saying. The specifications listed in the brochure and on the website are for the EMPTY trailer, no propane, no battery, as shipped from the factory. When you pick it up from the dealer with full propane tanks, one battery and a full water tank (52 gal @ 8.3/gal) you will have added 60 + 50 + 431 = 541 pounds to the empty weight of 8530 for a towing weight of 9071. That will give you a pin weight ranging between 1360 - 2267 for your first tow home.
I called Keystone again and spoke with an engineer, the brochure does list dry weight before filled propane but the pin weight is based on gvwr 10300. The dual axels carry the brunt of the weight. In fact they stated that adding cargo and water does not effect pin weight pound for pound, the design of the unit puts the weight squarely on the axels, this is why even weight distribution and cargo limit is critical. When I explain your theory they absolutely disagreed, (If and this is a big if) I were to have a pin weight of 2000lbs i would have to far exceed my 5vers gvwr, freash water tank full will effect cargo carry capacity but as long as I do not exceed 10300lbs with even weight distrubution my pin weight is 1545 (with full propane tanks).

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[kennyskywalker]

Btw cargo capacity for my unit is 1720, with freshwater tank full carry capacity drops dramatically heres my doot stickerhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170224/e8ca595c3009aa3a9399695a2b18e37d.jpg

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[Javi]

I called Keystone again and spoke with an engineer, the brochure does list dry weight before filled propane but the pin weight is based on gvwr 10300. The dual axels carry the brunt of the weight. In fact they stated that adding cargo and water does not effect pin weight pound for pound, the design of the unit puts the weight squarely on the axels, this is why even weight distribution and cargo limit is critical. When I explain your theory they absolutely disagreed, (If and this is a big if) I were to have a pin weight of 2000lbs i would have to far exceed my 5vers gvwr, freash water tank full will effect cargo carry capacity but as long as I do not exceed 10300lbs with even weight distrubution my pin weight is 1545 (with full propane tanks).

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They're jerking your chain...:D

[canesfan]

x2 I agree with Javi.

[JRTJH]

Well, I would say that you're faced with a dilemma about how much your pin weight is and how it will change with loading your trailer. Basic physics mandates that you can't add weight between the fulcrum and the end of a load and not increase the weight applied to the end, so loading cargo forward of the axles (in the bedroom closets, under the bed and in the storage passthrough) will add pin weight to the trailer. But if Keystone says it doesn't, maybe they figured out how to "bend the rules of physics" ???

Believe who you want (after all, this in the internet), but I would strongly urge you to get in your truck, hitch the trailer and head to a CAT scale to verify the information you received. Keep in mind that even dealerships have problems talking to engineers at the factory. Keystone's "engineers" don't spend time on the phone talking with people who call Customer Service.

[sourdough]

I would question the "expertise" of the person you talked to.

In every situation I've looked at the advertised hitch weight in the specs is the dry weight. In the specs of my trailer when purchased they matched what the website said and were dry weights; I can't imagine that they put a fully loaded pin weight on the 253fwre out of the blue. Plus, look at the listed specs; a 1500 lb pin on a gvw of 10,300 is 14.5%; that's not going to be the loaded pin weight.

The expert said that the load would not transfer to the pin lb for lb. and he's right depending on placement. But, look at your floorplan. The closets, wardrobe and underbed storage are right at the front. For us when packing for a trip we will have at least 100 lbs. of clothes/misc in the closets and another 100lbs under the bed. Those are right at the nose. That along with your propane and battery (s) will almost transfer lb. for lb. to the pin. Now look at your bathroom and galley. They may have ran your gray drain lines toward the back of the trailer but I doubt it. Your black tank is going to be under your toilet - forward of the axles it appears. All this transfers to the pin in some ratio or another depending on proximity to the front.

A long explanation to just say John is right, your "expert" at Keystone is not. I have talked to more than my share of folks at Keystone and some (ONE) was sharper than a tack (engineer on frames/axles/wheels) the rest seemed more like "book learned" than real life. JMO -

[kennyskywalker]

Well, I would say that you're faced with a dilemma about how much your pin weight is and how it will change with loading your trailer. Basic physics mandates that you can't add weight between the fulcrum and the end of a load and not increase the weight applied to the end, so loading cargo forward of the axles (in the bedroom closets, under the bed and in the storage passthrough) will add pin weight to the trailer. But if Keystone says it doesn't, maybe they figured out how to "bend the rules of physics" ???

Believe who you want (after all, this in the internet), but I would strongly urge you to get in your truck, hitch the trailer and head to a CAT scale to verify the information you received. Keep in mind that even dealerships have problems talking to engineers at the factory. Keystone's "engineers" don't spend time on the phone talking with people who call Customer Service.
So then you believe adding cargo increases pin weight pound for pound?

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[kennyskywalker]

I would question the "expertise" of the person you talked to.

In every situation I've looked at the advertised hitch weight in the specs is the dry weight. In the specs of my trailer when purchased they matched what the website said and were dry weights; I can't imagine that they put a fully loaded pin weight on the 253fwre out of the blue. Plus, look at the listed specs; a 1500 lb pin on a gvw of 10,300 is 14.5%; that's not going to be the loaded pin weight.

The expert said that the load would not transfer to the pin lb for lb. and he's right depending on placement. But, look at your floorplan. The closets, wardrobe and underbed storage are right at the front. For us when packing for a trip we will have at least 100 lbs. of clothes/misc in the closets and another 100lbs under the bed. Those are right at the nose. That along with your propane and battery (s) will almost transfer lb. for lb. to the pin. Now look at your bathroom and galley. They may have ran your gray drain lines toward the back of the trailer but I doubt it. Your black tank is going to be under your toilet - forward of the axles it appears. All this transfers to the pin in some ratio or another depending on proximity to the front.

A long explanation to just say John is right, your "expert" at Keystone is not. I have talked to more than my share of folks at Keystone and some (ONE) was sharper than a tack (engineer on frames/axles/wheels) the rest seemed more like "book learned" than real life. JMO -
Most of the weight inside is at and behind axel..

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[Javi]

So then you believe adding cargo increases pin weight pound for pound?

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No, but the closer to the pin (and further from the axles) you add the weight the larger the increase pound from pound.. As an engineer:whistling: I can assure you that your chain has been jerked... maybe because of their lack of knowledge and maybe they're just messing with you....

Think back to a seesaw or titter totter, the wheels are the pivot point...

[JRTJH]

So then you believe adding cargo increases pin weight pound for pound?

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No, that is NOT what I said and NOT what I inferred. I stated that your trailer, like EVERY fifth wheel I've ever seen (and all the others on this forum that have related their trailer weights) range between 15-25% of the trailer weight. So your trailer, at GVW weight of 10300 pounds will have a pin weight of 15-25%. Using simple math, that equates to a pin ranging between 1545 and 2575 pounds. YOUR trailer's pin weight will range somewhere in that range... Go back and reread what I said and you'll find that I NEVER said nor inferred that cargo you add to your trailer will put weight on your pin at a 1:1 ratio... Again, for your own "peace of mind" hitch your trailer and head to a CAT scale and weigh the rig. Then you'll know just how much you can "trust" that "Keystone engineer"..... I've lost even more faith in their "customer service" after what you relayed they told you

[kennyskywalker]

No, that is NOT what I said and NOT what I inferred. I stated that your trailer, like EVERY fifth wheel I've ever seen (and all the others on this forum that have related their trailer weights) range between 15-25% of the trailer weight. So your trailer, at GVW weight of 10300 pounds will have a pin weight of 15-25%. Using simple math, that equates to a pin ranging between 1545 and 2575 pounds. YOUR trailer's pin weight will range somewhere in that range... Go back and reread what I said and you'll find that I NEVER said nor inferred that cargo you add to your trailer will put weight on your pin at a 1:1 ratio... Again, for your own "peace of mind" hitch your trailer and head to a CAT scale and weigh the rig. Then you'll know just how much you can "trust" that "Keystone engineer"..... I've lost even more faith in their "customer service" after what you relayed they told you
I think we are saying the same thing, 10300 x15% is 1500

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[kennyskywalker]

I think we are saying the same thing, 10300 x15% is 1500

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1545 i mean

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[canesfan]

:facepalm:

I think the ONLY time I've ever seen a fiver with a pin weight at or near the extreme low end (15%) was when I had one that had the fresh tank all the way at the back and I filled it up to go dry camping with somewhere around 800lbs of water. Going down the highway it did an "oh s**t" wiggle seat of your pants feeling a couple times. Not a pleasant experience. I finally figured I didn't have enough pin weight because of all the water. I had never had a fiver feel like that before and never wish to again. However I would like to put about 1000lbs in the back of the toyhauler now and then.

[kennyskywalker]

So ive been to the scales, full tank of fuel with cargo (no passengers), unhitched my truck drive axel was 2860, hitched with one passenger and cargo drive axel weighed 4720.
Passenger weighed 225 + cargo in truck 85 + 1545 pin gets really close to 4720. This also includes cargo in 5ver. Numbers dont lie and from what Keystone has said its consistent!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170224/618dfe590756a742c3c7e2f9c48de632.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170224/3f651cd8c60b8628bcdaa7e5ce6eaa22.jpg

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[JRTJH]

I think we are saying the same thing, 10300 x15% is 1500

1545 i mean

No, we're not saying the same thing. You're saying (I believe) that your pin weight will "always" be 1545 with a trailer weight of 10300 pounds.

I'm saying that IF YOU ARE PROPERLY LOADED, it will be "AT LEAST" that much (15% of the weight), and PROBABLY will be significantly more than that, up to 2575 pounds which is 25% of the weight.

Depending on how you load your trailer, in your first post you said "all the storage is forward of the axles" and in your most recent post you said, "all the weight is aft of the axles"... IT CAN'T BE BOTH....

Looking at the floorplan, with the exception of two small cupboards on the back wall and the overhead storage above the sofa. ALL the remaining storage is FORWARD of the axles (except for the dinette base storage which is over the axles and is "neutral" in pin weight calculations). So, anything you add to the trailer, clothing, food, blankets/towels, water, camping gear, tools, etc will ALL add to the weight on the pin. You can't "change physics" and EVERYTHING you add in the majority of your storage areas will increase the pin weight (except for the two cupboards by the TV and that small overhead cabinet over the sofa) with the understanding that the dinette storage is "neutral".

So, anything you add to your trailer (forward of the axles) WILL increase your pin weight (but not at 1:1). The specification pin weight in the brochure is the empty pin weight and will go up from there as you load cargo.

[JRTJH]

According to the weight slips, your truck weighs 6600 pounds without the trailer and weighs 8360 with the trailer. That would put your pin weight at 1760. Using the total weight of 15580 and subtracting the 6600 pounds for the truck, your trailer weighed 8980. That means your pin percentage is 19.6%. Assuming you could load your trailer with additional weight "IN THE SAME LOCATIONS AS YOUR EXISTING WEIGHT" to get your trailer to weigh the 10300 GVW, at 19.6%, your pin would weigh around 2020 pounds (10300 x 19.6%).

Bottom line, you simply can't keep your pin weight at 1545 at empty weight and expect it to stay there at GVW. as cooter brown says: AIN'T HAPPNIN'

[kennyskywalker]

No, we're not saying the same thing. You're saying (I believe) that your pin weight will "always" be 1545 with a trailer weight of 10300 pounds.

I'm saying that IF YOU ARE PROPERLY LOADED, it will be "AT LEAST" that much (15% of the weight), and PROBABLY will be significantly more than that, up to 2575 pounds which is 25% of the weight.

Depending on how you load your trailer, in your first post you said "all the storage is forward of the axles" and in your most recent post you said, "all the weight is aft of the axles"... IT CAN'T BE BOTH....

Looking at the floorplan, with the exception of two small cupboards on the back wall and the overhead storage above the sofa. ALL the remaining storage is FORWARD of the axles (except for the dinette base storage which is over the axles and is "neutral" in pin weight calculations). So, anything you add to the trailer, clothing, food, blankets/towels, water, camping gear, tools, etc will ALL add to the weight on the pin. You can't "change physics" and EVERYTHING you add in the majority of your storage areas will increase the pin weight (except for the two cupboards by the TV and that small overhead cabinet over the sofa) with the understanding that the dinette storage is "neutral".

So, anything you add to your trailer (forward of the axles) WILL increase your pin weight (but not at 1:1). The specification pin weight in the brochure is the empty pin weight and will go up from there as you load cargo.
Actually i am saying the most the pin will weigh at 10300 is 1545, the published weight in brochure is on the gross, the uvw pin weight is not 1545, it does not start there but should end up there fully load. This what Keystone is saying and its really close to what the scales show. Keystone did say that some brochure are informational only and not completely accurate, but researching my unit they were confident 1500 or 1545 is based on 10300 not 8545. Im going to re-weigh and retest not trying to annoy anyone but I like to verify. You think if you speak with the manufacturer they would be forthcoming, what do they have to hide?

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[JRTJH]

According to the weight tickets you posted your pin weight at that event is more than 1545. So are you saying that you think the more you load the lighter it will be?

Maybe someone else can help you understand your pin weight. Lord knows I tried.... Good Luck !!!

[sourdough]

On your weight tickets your trailer is weighing 89xx lbs. It's dry weight is 8530 so you have a load of approx. 400 lbs in the trailer. You have more freshwater storage than that so it's not "loaded" with cargo. Add another 650 or so for black/gray water and the weight will just keep going up. In the 400 lbs of "cargo" on the trailer I am assuming you have filled the propane tanks?

To try to explain this yet another way; your trailer as weighed weighs 8980 with a pin of 1760...19.6%. Theoretically, if the trailer as it is currently distributed was actually LOADED and was at 10,300, your pin would be 2019 lbs. Problem is it is not going to be loaded as it currently is and the majority of the weight you're going to add will add substantial load to the pin (because it's forward of the axles). No matter what Keystone told you your trailer is not a magic absorption box where the laws of physics don't apply.

[sourdough]

Actually i am saying the most the pin will weigh at 10300 is 1545, the published weight in brochure is on the gross, the uvw pin weight is not 1545, it does not start there but should end up there fully load. This what Keystone is saying and its really close to what the scales show. Keystone did say that some brochure are informational only and not completely accurate, but researching my unit they were confident 1500 or 1545 is based on 10300 not 8545. Im going to re-weigh and retest not trying to annoy anyone but I like to verify. You think if you speak with the manufacturer they would be forthcoming, what do they have to hide?

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They don't have anything to hide....they're just not forthcoming, and, for the most part have no idea what they're talking about if you are talking to customer service....and that's who you are talking to unless you were able to elevate it through the involvement of a government agency, which I have done. The folks on here, I can assure you, know more about the trailers than Keystone customer service....on any day. Load the trailer as if you were actually going to use it, or, if you don't know what that is take it out a few times to find out all the things you don't have, get them, put them on the trailer and load it. Just make sure you don't load it in such a manner that it takes you, your truck and your family "for a ride". Don't forget to fill, or partially fill, your tanks....that is part of the "cargo".

[CWtheMan]

Let's look at this as a two part problem.

Wise RV trailer buyers will want to know a ballpark figure for the trailer's tongue/pin weight.

The recommended/published tongue/pin weights provided by the trailer manufacturer are linked to vehicle certification (they MUST provide one). What they provide is an ideal weight that in all probability can be achieved at full vehicle GVWR.

In the past I've done the math on a complete fiver and travel trailer line-up. The fivers average between 14-17% and the TTs average between 9-12%. With careful distribution and balancing of your cargo they are maintainable. But highly unreasonable for most RVers.

The bottom line is, it's the owners responsibility to balance their cargo to attain a balance between tow vehicle and towed vehicle.

Here is an snip from FMVSS 571.110 that directs manufacturer's to establish a tongue/pin weight and it's purpose to them and relationship to vehicle certification.

S9.2 On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus
the vehicle manufacturer’s recommended tongue weight must not be
less than the GVWR. If tongue weight is specified as a range, the minimum
value must be used.

[Ken / Claudia]

I looked at the weight tickets. Is it normal to loose 1,000 lbs off the steering axle when towing a 5er.

[larry337]

I looked at the weight tickets. Is it normal to loose 1,000 lbs off the steering axle when towing a 5er.
1000lbs? No not normal, but I believe your math is off, or its new math, critical thinking, or whatever they're calling it now days. [emoji1] [emoji16]

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[Ken / Claudia]

Larry, I just read the wt. slips. I used new math and added a extra zero. Can I blame the computer. But, I do work for the government is that not normal. Thanks

[PARAPTOR]

Larry, I just read the wt. slips. I used new math and added a extra zero. Can I blame the computer. But, I do work for the government is that not normal. Thanks

Thanks always wondered about that. But then again when you are playing with nine to twelve zero's after a number, not a big deal adding four or more here and there. But did hear something about a new sheriff in town :eek: