Vehicle to tow a fifth wheel - tow rating

[NJdudette]

I own a 2016 Keystone Cougar 288RLS and am looking to upgrade my ride to a Ford F-250. A dealer has located a vehicle for me, but it doesn't have the 5th wheel/gooseneck prep package. According to the Trailer Life Tow Guide, this vehicle can only tow 12,500 lbs and I need a minimum of 15,000 lbs. I balked on the vehicle. The dealer says a company can upfit the truck to include to include the 5th wheel prep package and increase the towing capacity from 12,500 to 15,000 lbs - that part doesn't sound right. Can they increase the tow rating of a vehicle? I'm not mechanical, but it doesn't sound right.

[66joej]

Don't see how a factory 5th wheel prep would be any different than installing a regular 5th wheel hitch. They are both anchored to the frame. I'm surprised a new F250 will only be rated for a 12,500# 5er. Also it depends on powertrain (gas or diesel) and rear diff. ratio.

[slow]

A FW is in F350 territory due to the limited payload capacity of a F250.

For a point of reference, my F250 CC gasser only has 2668 lbs of payload. A diesel in the same configuration and trim would have even less payload capacity. A loaded 15,000 lb FW would have approximately 3,000 lbs on the pin far exceeding the F250's payload capacity.

[NJdudette]

I think I'm reading the guide correctly.

F-250 CC SRW 4WD - 6.2L V-8 - 3.73 Electronic locking axel = 12,100 lbs (I orig said 12,500)

[NJdudette]

A FW is in F350 territory due to the limited payload capacity of a F250.

That's the part I don't understand - payload capacity. I was always looking at tow ratings.

[Javi]

[QUOTE=slow;223478]A FW is in F350 territory due to the limited payload capacity of a F250.

That's the part I don't understand - payload capacity. I was always looking at tow ratings.

Towing capacity is a scam... they tout it like our trailers have no hitch weight..
I didn't look but I guess from the way you're talking your trailer is a 5th wheel...

Payload, Payload.. and you are in 350 SRW territory leaning to dually country... anything pushing 3K pin weight is dually country.. if you're gonna carry much in the way of family, dogs, and such...

[sourdough]

^^^^What Javi said....he is spot on.

[NJdudette]

Thanks so much for the info!! It's just me camping with my two small dogs, so it's not like I cart a lot of junk with me. I wanted a slightly larger trailer, had a 30 ft travel trailer, and my dad talked me into a 35 ft fifth wheel. I like the extra room, but it is a bit much considering it's just me ;-)

[PARAPTOR]

Payload Payload ....payload. Maybe this will help, there is a sticker on the passenger frame that signifies the payload that your truck can safely haul. That number include people, gas, hitch, cargo, etc. When you subtract all these from the sticker payload that is what is left for your FW pin weight. Look at it like you truck has to carry part of the weight of the FW (its pin weight). I would also agree with the previous post that as an estimate of pin weight for the FW in question would be 20%, ie 20% of the weight of the FW will be applied to the pin. Therefore Estimated pin weight would be 20% of 15000 or around 3,000 lbs. In this example your truck will need a payload capacity of at least 3K plus weight of people, hitch, etc. Those numbers are in the 3500 truck range

[NJdudette]

My fifth wheel has a GVWR of 12,105. I have Ford's brochure plus I found the pin weight capacity for my trailer is 3,200 lbs. According to Ford's brochure, an F-250 SRW 4x4, crew cab 159.7" WB has a payload of 3,450 lbs <--- too close with 3,200 lbs?

[66joej]

The 5er you have is rated at 12000# GVWR with a pin weight of 1700#.
Close to the max for an F250.

[JRTJH]

My fifth wheel has a GVWR of 12,105. I have Ford's brochure plus I found the pin weight capacity for my trailer is 3,200 lbs. According to Ford's brochure, an F-250 SRW 4x4, crew cab 159.7" WB has a payload of 3,450 lbs <--- too close with 3,200 lbs?

I think where you're "missing the data" is when you quote "Ford's brochure". The information in the brochure is the "best situation in a specific vehicle line" and does not reflect the capacity of your specific vehicle. So, to rely on the brochure, you'll need to determine which "base level, single seat model" that Ford used to determine the "best in class" information they printed.

As an example, the maximum GVW for any (current model) F250 is limited to either 9900 or 10000 pounds. The payload is the difference between the vehicle weight and the GVW. So it stands to reason that a single cab short bed, 2WD base model truck with no options will weigh significantly less than a luxury "option packed" crew cab 4WD model. That means that the 3450 pound payload "IN THE BROCHURE" can't apply to both trucks with the given GVW.

The only weights that apply to your truck are those on the yellow sticker that you'll find on the driver's door jam. Look at that, realize that's the absolute maximum weight you can "legally carry" and go from there. Remember that if you've added seat covers, spray in bed liner, running boards, fifth wheel hitch, GPS, maps in the glove compartment, etc, all of that "extra cargo and accessories" must be deducted from the "yellow sticker payload"... All of that must be deducted, even before you put the first cooler, passenger or stick of firewood in the truck or hitch up the trailer.

Most gas supercab or crew cab F250's have a payload of around 2600-2800 pounds and most with the diesel engine have payloads of around 1800-2200 pounds. The Lariat, King Ranch and Platinum model payloads are significantly less than the XL and XLT models because of the "extra stuff" the factory packs into the option packages.

My guess is that you'll be over your payload and over your maximum trailer specifications with a Cougar 288 and a 2011-2016 F250. There's not a "hill of beans" difference between those truck models and the 2017 models, not because of "truck ability" but rather because of the 10,000 GVW limit.

My recommendation, if you're "heart set" on towing a 35' Cougar, you'd be better served just getting an F350 and not having to worry about the "legal ramifications" should anything happen.

[NJdudette]

Thanks everyone for your help, I really learned quite a bit. You'd all be shaking your head with what I've been towing it with. Camping World should have never sold me that trailer.

[sourdough]

I own a 2016 Keystone Cougar 288RLS and am looking to upgrade my ride to a Ford F-250. A dealer has located a vehicle for me, but it doesn't have the 5th wheel/gooseneck prep package. According to the Trailer Life Tow Guide, this vehicle can only tow 12,500 lbs and I need a minimum of 15,000 lbs. I balked on the vehicle. The dealer says a company can upfit the truck to include to include the 5th wheel prep package and increase the towing capacity from 12,500 to 15,000 lbs - that part doesn't sound right. Can they increase the tow rating of a vehicle? I'm not mechanical, but it doesn't sound right.

The trailer listed shows a GVW of 12100. Approx. pin weight north of 2000 it would seem but not 3200 IMO - I don't know where that comes from - it seems pretty high. The brochure is too generic to tell you your payload. Look at the sticker on the inside of the driver's door and it will tell you - 3450 seems awfully optimistic.

On top of the payload issue is just the sheer weight of the trailer and trying to pull it with a gas engine. I pull 10k with a 6.4L Ram with numbers very close to the 6.2L Ford and I wouldn't put that trailer behind my truck; you need more oooomph! I've always said you need a diesel pulling anything over 10k and I think that holds true IMO. In fact, I've started looking at them (diesel 350/3500) this week to pull what I have, or, something else?? in the future. Don't listen to a salesman to give you the skinny on a TV - do your research and you will be doing yourself a favor.

[gearhead]

Since I think I understand that you already have the trailer, do this...hook it up to your present truck. Take it to a CAT scale at a truck stop. Get the front axle of the truck on the front section of the scale, the truck rear axle on the middle scale, and the trailer wheels on the third scale. Go unhook the trailer at home or wherever. Go right back to scale and weigh the truck axles again. Take the previous scale ticket with you. Tell them it is a re-weigh. They only charge a dollar or two. Go home and do the math.
If you're getting around 3,000# pin weight and want a Ford you better go dually. Been there.

[CWSWine]

This is a great training video used by RV Safety to explain tow ratings and payload ratings. Also describes how to match you truck to the RV.

http://rvsafety.com/rv-education/matching-trucks-to-trailers

[ctbruce]

I just bought a new 3500HD. The cost difference between it and the 2500 was small. For a slight increase in cost I got a lot more truck. I'd bypass the 250 for that reason alone.

Chip Bruce, RPh
Kansas City, MO
2016 Fuzion Impact 312
2017 3500HD Silverado LTZ

[xrated]

Some real world info.....
2011 F250 Crew Cab 4x4 with the 6 1/2' bed and the 6.7 Diesel...3.31 rear end, XLT model.
Yellow sticker on the "B" pillar for cargo carrying capacity....2160 lbs.

Those numbers made me change from my original plans to buy a 5th. Wheel Toy Hauler to a TT style toy hauler. I just couldn't swing a newer truck (F350 dually) AND the trailer.

[bagged123]

I bought a 3500 dually for the same price as my '16 2500 was. With those numbers you're posting, you need a bigger truck. Once you add the hitch, people, etc. you will be over. Also, if you look at one with the fifth wheel factory prep, the payload will be slightly higher then one not factory prepped.

[bsmith0404]

The first question is what is included in the prep package? The reason I ask, it makes me cringe when a dealer says aftermarket, especially Ford. Here's why. The Ford explorer is available with a trailering package which includes a receiver hitch, HD transmission cooler, and engine oil cooler. It is a factory fit option only, not available to be ordered/added by the dealer. If you buy an Explorer without the package and decide you want to tow, your only option is an after market hitch. If you have powertrain problems while still under warranty and Ford sees the hitch without the tow package, guess what? Yep, warranty claim denied. I've seen it happen. Again, my question is, what does Ford add with the 5th wheel prep package?

[CaptnJohn]

Thanks everyone for your help, I really learned quite a bit. You'd all be shaking your head with what I've been towing it with. Camping World should have never sold me that trailer.

We all must 1st understand very few camper sales people and truck sales people camp! I watched a customer tell a CW salesperson he was full of it and stomp off when the salesman told him he would need more truck. The customer said he did not know what he was talking about as the truck salesman told him his 2500 diesel could pull every 5er made. I only deal with the sales manager at Ford dealership where I buy. I educated him on payload and when picking up my F350 had a little meeting with his staff. He located my current truck at another dealership and before the deal asked to have a picture of the yellow sticker emailed and educated the transferring sales manager as to why it was important to me. They should know ~~ but do not. An F250/2500 diesel can pull most but payload comes into the equation for those that camp.

[RDB]

Payload in the brochure is for a strip down model. Accessories add weight and reduces the payload capacity. Expect delivered model w/o sun roof to be 200- 300 less than published, deduct another 200+ for the power sun roof. I went through this exercise when I ordered my F150 in 2012 and will be doing it again when I upgrade to a F350 in a couple of years.

[notanlines]

Kim, with your fiver listing the pin weight as 1700 pound range you would have no reason to look into dually trucks. A bare minimum of 250's and 2500's, certainly more comfortable with a 350 or 3500's. A GMC 3500 dually would simply be overkill in a big way.

[Javi]

Kim, with your fiver listing the pin weight as 1700 pound range you would have no reason to look into dually trucks. A bare minimum of 250's and 2500's, certainly more comfortable with a 350 or 3500's. A GMC 3500 dually would simply be overkill in a big way.

Gross on that trailer is right at 12K... about the same as my 333MKS and loaded my pin weight is just over 2800... More than a 250/2500 is rated for and I got tired of having to buy a new truck every time the DW wanted a new trailer... so I skipped the SRW 350 altogether and there ain't a difference in the price worth mentioning between the dually and the SRW

I can carry 1/2 a cord of wood with me and not squat the truck... :D

[bagged123]

Kim, with your fiver listing the pin weight as 1700 pound range you would have no reason to look into dually trucks. A bare minimum of 250's and 2500's, certainly more comfortable with a 350 or 3500's. A GMC 3500 dually would simply be overkill in a big way.

No new 2500 can still tow that fiver unless you get a bare bones 2500. I had a '16 CC Durmax 2500 with a payload of 2400, by the time I put the hitch in, fuel, people, etc. it would've been over. Better off getting a 3500 just for the payload capabilities.

[JRTJH]

I have a 2015 F250 Lariat diesel 4x4 short bed crew cab. The GVW is "legally mandated" at 10,000 pounds and the payload is 2200 pounds. My fifth wheel is a 2014 Cougar XLite 27RKS with an "advertised" pin weight of 1230. The last CAT scale weights (ready for a trip) were:

Front axle: 4227
Rear axle: 5696
Trailer axle: 7616

Truck weight: 9933
Trailer weight: 9436

So, what does all of this mean? At least in my situation, my F250 (which admittedly is heavy with options from the factory) is at it's MAXIMUM GVW with a trailer that "specs out" with an advertised pin weight of 1230 pounds. Keep in mind that the 27RKS is a "rear kitchen model" which means that a significant part of the trailer weight (and storage) is located BEHIND the axles, making the pin "weigh light" for travel.

Without going to the "it's the same truck as an F350 argument" (I don't want to go there), my F250 is "maxed out" with a trailer that's significantly smaller than the OP's 2016 Cougar 288RLS which "specs out empty" with a pin weight that's 500 pounds heavier than my empty pin weight. Given the kitchen in the 288 is above/forward of the axle with minimal storage aft of the axle, the pin weight is very likely to be significantly heavier than just that 500 pounds. That will put her trailer, towed with a similar F250, significantly above the established GVW of 10,000 pounds.

Will an F250 tow it? Heck yes, especially a diesel model. A gas model will be at the GCWR and max trailer ratings, but the power is there to significantly improve towing over her current vehicle, which I believe is an F150, which I would guess is significantly overloaded.

So, is it "possible to tow" ??? Yup
Is it responsible to tow" ??? NOPE, if anything should happen, the lawyers could easily have a field day with the weight..... Your views may differ, ain't life grand that way.......

[larry337]

I always tell people to skip the 3/4 ton and go straight to a one ton. The difference in ride and price are negligible. They both come on a short bed if necessary so size isn't a factor. The only possible reason is if registration in your state is considerably more or it it's too high to fit in your garage. But we're beating a dead horse over and over. [emoji13]

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[Frank G]

There are many F-350 trucks built/shipped with the 10,000 lb limit. (same as the F-250) Buying a F-350 does not necessarily get you more weight carrying or towing capabilities. The 2017 Ford Fleet trailer towing guide highlights the configurations. It is also a great source for towing/loading information

http://www.fleet.ford.com/towing-guides/

First post here, closing a deal on a Laredo 325RL Looking around for a new TV and have run into several F-350's with the 10,000 GVWR. This is a DOT thing for License compliance.

[rhagfo]

I think I'm reading the guide correctly.

F-250 CC SRW 4WD - 6.2L V-8 - 3.73 Electronic locking axel = 12,100 lbs (I orig said 12,500)

Part of your issue is you are looking at a gas engine with a 3.73 gear ratio. The dealer can increase the tow rating by installing 4.10's or 4.30 gears. The ability to pull is HP/Torque and gears, the ability to carry is springs, tires, and wheels.

I would suggest if you want to feel good about numbers, get a F350 SRW with 4.30 gears and be happy.
The other thing you could do is get a F250, and forget the GVWR and go by axle ratings. You would also be better with a 4.10 or 4.30 gear ratio. That choice is yours only.

I will state I carry/tow a 5er slightly larger than what you are looking at with our 2001 Ram 2500, without an issue, just over my GVWR.

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_223774_0_06369b3ae413eeea9cd51ddbb6ac04ff.jpg

[JRTJH]

There are many F-350 trucks built/shipped with the 10,000 lb limit. (same as the F-250) Buying a F-350 does not necessarily get you more weight carrying or towing capabilities. The 2017 Ford Fleet trailer towing guide highlights the configurations. It is also a great source for towing/loading information

http://www.fleet.ford.com/towing-guides/

First post here, closing a deal on a Laredo 325RL Looking around for a new TV and have run into several F-350's with the 10,000 GVWR. This is a DOT thing for License compliance.

Buying a F350 with a 10,000 pound GVW is purely a tax/registration issue. It's a way to "de-rate" the truck to avoid commercial tax rates in states that regulate truck taxes by weight capacity. In those situations, the truck is "capable but not legal" to carry the same weights as one with a 11,500 pound weight. The "de-rated GVW" allows buyers who want that model truck and don't have a need for the full weight rated GVW capacity". The F250/F350 model situation is much the same, basically a "fender badge" issue as well. There's very little difference in the two trucks from a "capacity to carry weight" issue. Unfortunately, some people use it as a way to "cheat the tax rate".

I use the example of hunting licenses to compare. You can buy a basic small game license which allows you to carry a gun in the woods and hunt squirrel/rabbits. Should you hunt with a 12 gauge shotgun, you carry the capacity to harvest a deer (if you walk up on one), have the equipment capacity to be successful, but don't have the license to do so legally. If you pull the trigger and take a deer, you face issues of hunting illegally. You do so against the moral and legal limits of your license (hunter registration). You'll be prosecuted if you're caught in that situation.

It's the same with trucks. Whether the equipment has the capacity to carry the weight or not, the license/registration limits the ability to use that capacity. You're limited by the 10,000 pound limit "legally and morally" and will suffer the consequences if you ignore your "legal limits" if anything happens and you get caught.....

Some people simply don't care about those "legal/moral" limits and choose to ignore them because "the truck is the same as...." Only you can choose whether it's appropriate for you to do so.

[CWSWine]

I asked the GMC midwest area factory fleet manager about loading over GVWR and loading to Axle ratings and also the 2500/3500 issue. He said there was a lot of internet engineers putting out a lot of bad information. He sent me the link below and stated this is our official/legal position of GMC and what you can expect if you end up in court.

http://www.gmc.com/gmc-life/how-to/understanding-gross-vehicle-weight-rating.html


There are many F-350 trucks built/shipped with the 10,000 lb limit. (same as the F-250) Buying a F-350 does not necessarily get you more weight carrying or towing capabilities. The 2017 Ford Fleet trailer towing guide highlights the configurations. It is also a great source for towing/loading information

http://www.fleet.ford.com/towing-guides/

First post here, closing a deal on a Laredo 325RL Looking around for a new TV and have run into several F-350's with the 10,000 GVWR. This is a DOT thing for License compliance.

[Frank G]

Buying a F350 with a 10,000 pound GVW is purely a tax/registration issue. It's a way to "de-rate" the truck to avoid commercial tax rates in states that regulate truck taxes by weight capacity. In those situations, the truck is "capable but not legal" to carry the same weights as one with a 11,500 pound weight. The "de-rated GVW" allows buyers who want that model truck and don't have a need for the full weight rated GVW capacity". The F250/F350 model situation is much the same, basically a "fender badge" issue as well. There's very little difference in the two trucks from a "capacity to carry weight" issue. Unfortunately, some people use it as a way to "cheat the tax rate".

I use the example of hunting licenses to compare. You can buy a basic small game license which allows you to carry a gun in the woods and hunt squirrel/rabbits. Should you hunt with a 12 gauge shotgun, you carry the capacity to harvest a deer (if you walk up on one), have the equipment capacity to be successful, but don't have the license to do so legally. If you pull the trigger and take a deer, you face issues of hunting illegally. You do so against the moral and legal limits of your license (hunter registration). You'll be prosecuted if you're caught in that situation.

It's the same with trucks. Whether the equipment has the capacity to carry the weight or not, the license/registration limits the ability to use that capacity. You're limited by the 10,000 pound limit "legally and morally" and will suffer the consequences if you ignore your "legal limits" if anything happens and you get caught.....

Some people simply don't care about those "legal/moral" limits and choose to ignore them because "the truck is the same as...." Only you can choose whether it's appropriate for you to do so.

I agree with everything you state, but you are not considering the Federal DOT licensing requirements for commercial use. A large amount of F-350 are purchased for commercial use and the DOT requirement for DOT licensed drivers is 10,001 lb or over. So the auto industry offers 10,000 lb stickers on larger trucks so the industry can use non CDL drivers, Like snowplow drivers.

What I am trying to say is this crazy law affects us non commercial users and I would hate to see someone blindly purchase a F-350 with the 10,000 GVW sticker on the door frame when they thought it had the 11500 lb sticker.

[larry337]

I agree with everything you state, but you are not considering the Federal DOT licensing requirements for commercial use. A large amount of F-350 are purchased for commercial use and the DOT requirement for DOT licensed drivers is 10,001 lb or over. So the auto industry offers 10,000 lb stickers on larger trucks so the industry can use non CDL drivers, Like snowplow drivers.

What I am trying to say is this crazy law affects us non commercial users and I would hate to see someone blindly purchase a F-350 with the 10,000 GVW sticker on the door frame when they thought it had the 11500 lb sticker.
As a CDL holder myself I can tell you that the limit is 26,000 lbs not 10,000. And it only applies if you are doing work for hire, in other words commercially. There is no CDL requirement for personal use. Now some states have initiated they're own recreational version of a CDL but it had nothing to do with DOT or federal law.

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[Cabindweller]

I just bought a new 3500HD. The cost difference between it and the 2500 was small. For a slight increase in cost I got a lot more truck. I'd bypass the 250 for that reason alone.

Chip Bruce, RPh
Kansas City, MO
2016 Fuzion Impact 312
2017 3500HD Silverado LTZ


I couldn't agree more with this.

[gearhead]

Part of y'alls problem is you're talking about "F"350. Change that "F" to a RAM 3500 and the GVWR is 12,300.
My loaded RAM 3500 Laramie 4X4 (except sunroof) payload is 4,018.

[Javi]

Part of y'alls problem is you're talking about "F"350. Change that "F" to a RAM 3500 and the GVWR is 12,300.
My loaded RAM 3500 Laramie 4X4 (except sunroof) payload is 4,018.

And my "F" 350 has a payload of 6062 and a GVWR of 14,000 pounds :D :D

[gearhead]

Yeah yeah. Ram dually is the same thing. :)

[rhagfo]

I just bought a new 3500HD. The cost difference between it and the 2500 was small. For a slight increase in cost I got a lot more truck. I'd bypass the 250 for that reason alone.

Chip Bruce, RPh
Kansas City, MO
2016 Fuzion Impact 312
2017 3500HD Silverado LTZ

I couldn't agree more with this.

Well I respectfully disagree with these statements.

First let me state if buying new Chip did the right thing and bought the 3500 SRW, and got the reassurance of the higher listed GVWR. I would chose the 3500 over a 2500 if buying new for sure.

That said, if the badges on the doors, and the VIN and Payload stickers were removed I doubt that Chip could tell the difference between the 2500 and 3500 SRW, all the same parts with possibly the exception of the rear springs. Same frame, same engine, same drive train. That and maybe you would need to order an optional tire on the 2500.

If the 3500 was a DRW I would agree 100% the DRW would make a big difference.

Now waiting for all the fallout!! :hide:

[ctbruce]

Well I respectfully disagree with these statements.

First let me state if buying new Chip did the right thing and bought the 3500 SRW, and got the reassurance of the higher listed GVWR. I would chose the 3500 over a 2500 if buying new for sure.

That said, if the badges on the doors, and the VIN and Payload stickers were removed I doubt that Chip could tell the difference between the 2500 and 3500 SRW, all the same parts with possibly the exception of the rear springs. Same frame, same engine, same drive train. That and maybe you would need to order an optional tire on the 2500.

If the 3500 was a DRW I would agree 100% the DRW would make a big difference.

Now waiting for all the fallout!! :hide:
Yep new. Could of had the 2500 but never really considered it. My sites were always set on the 3500.

Chip Bruce, RPh
Kansas City, MO
2016 Fuzion Impact 312
2017 3500HD Silverado LTZ