Location on Progressive Hardwired Surge Proector

[1st Chev Diesel]

I am looking into installing a Progressive Industries hardwired surge protector (EMS-HW50C) in my Alpine 3101RL. The installation looks fairly straight forward but I am wondering where in the RV to place the unit. From the power pedestal my power cord connects at the rear (drivers side) of the RV, my on board battery is located in the right side front compartment and the power converter is in the middle of the RV.

Has anyone installed a hardwired surge protector in an Alpine 5er and where did you locate the unit? Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

Gary

[Dhuhn]

I have a Montana 3720. I mounted mine just before the breaker panel. Where the main power comes in to 50 amp breaker.

[xrated]

Many times it might be convenient to locate it next to or close to the transfer switch is you have shore power and a generator onboard. You want to hook it up so that it is downstream of both of those power sources, that way you have protection whether you are on shore power of generator power. I'm not familiar with your particular RV, so I don't know if you have an onboard genny or not. My Toy Hauler has the transfer switch located in the forward basement/cargo bay and putting a surge protector there would be very simple and there is more than enough room.

[cardinal96ss]

I also have a Montana and mounted mine in the space behind the breaker panel which is accessible once you pull the panel. I then mounted the remote readout near the entrance door so that I can check the readouts without getting in the RV.

[bsmith0404]

Typically they are mounted behind the breaker panel as already stated. There is usually an access panel somewhere near the breaker panel. In my Alpine there is a removable cabinet panel, but my breaker is mounted in the kitchen peninsula. It is a fairly basic task, the most difficult part is room to work. The main reason for mounting in that location, is because you simply remove the main power line where it goes into the panel and install the surge protector between them.

[bobbecky]

I just installed one in our rig, and went behind the breaker panel. I was able to pick up 5 feet of the same cable as was used in our rig, from Lowes. It is 3 #6 with a #8 solid bare copper ground wire. It's pretty stiff to work with, and some have used a piece of 50 amp extension cord that has all four conductors insulated and is much more flexible. In the first photo, I mounted the unit on the outside wall where the light is shining on, and the last photo shows where the digital display is mounted. I also used copper lugs instead of the ring connectors supplied with the unit, because they were too large for the ground wires in the cable, and would have required a professional crimper to install if the ground wire had been #6 strand copper. https://www.lowes.com/pd/Blackburn-2-Count-Copper-Lugs/999972228

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_222446_0_b179ca59b826b391e9eeddc5c44dcc76.jpg

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_222446_1_05447eb7938d2b5eeb1569cd984aa066.jpg

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_222446_2_aa63d3c36cbdaefce5ce8b3d2fcf394c.jpg

[xrated]

Looks very nice. I'm probably going to get one eventually, just as a matter of convenience, instead of using my Fluke meter to check readings before I hook up.

[PARAPTOR]

In order to minimize/eliminate cutting and reconnecting shore power cable(s), one should look for an existing termination point. Some rigs have a junction box just inside the wall where the shore power cable enters the rig. Replace the junction box with the hardwired Surge protection unit. In the event the shore power cable goes directly to the Power distribution panel, disconnect it and install the surge unit there as described in a previous post. Obviously either way you will need space for the unit, working space is another issue :cool:

Whole different story if you have a built in generator/transfer switch and want to protect yourself from both power sources. I had considered the various options when I installed a surge protection unit in my RAPTOR.

XRATED in a previous post stated what seemed to be a logically solution, which was to place the unit downstream of both of those power sources, that way you would have protection whether you were on shore power of generator power. I had also considered this setup until I realized that this configuration leaves your transfer switch unprotected.

The only way I could figure out how to protect the rig from both power sources was to install a new transfer switch with integrated surge protection and a remote monitor. I have a post out there that describes this transfer switch exchange and pictures including the remote monitor in the rig.

For those of you that say why do I need to protect myself from my own generator, well one day I started the generator. What no power after the standard delay period, checked the remote monitor "140 Volts". Transfer switch did not throw and apply this power level to the rig. (Rig protected). Shut down generator and started up again, voltages normal and transfer switch threw and power applied to rig. We can all guess what would have happened had that power level been applied to the rig.

Called ONAN who stated "that should not happen" :nonono: and of course said bring it into an authorized service Center. Not going the drag rig into shop $$$$$$ when I can not duplicate the problem.:banghead:

[Ddubya]

I mounted mine behind the breaker panel in my Alpine 3401RS.
Pretty easy job.
I have a friend that had just their electrical fried in a new Cardinal by a power surge in a small RV park. They did not have any protection.

[1st Chev Diesel]

Thank you to all who replied to my question. Great ideas!

Ddubya, I think your layout is most similar to my 3101RL. I presume that your breaker panel is in the bottom of the kitchen cupboard to the right of the pantry toward the main exit/entry door. How did you access behind the breaker panel? Did you do this through the basement by removing the wall panels in there or is there another way in?

Gary

[xrated]

PaRaptor wrote:
XRATED in a previous post stated what seemed to be a logically solution, which was to place the unit downstream of both of those power sources, that way you would have protection whether you were on shore power of generator power. I had also considered this setup until I realized that this configuration leaves your transfer switch unprotected.

Just to be clear, the transfer switch doesn't necessarily need to be protected, it's what is downstream of the transfer switch......the breaker panel that needs protection. As I stated, if the surge supressor is wired in on the load side of the transfer switch (if you have shore power AND a generator) you will be protecting your breaker panel and everything it feeds.

If you have a transfer switch (because you have shore power AND generator power) the only way to protect the transfer switch incoming power from both sources is to have TWO surge supressors....one of them between the generator output and one of the inputs to the transfer switch, and the other one between the shore power AND the other input to the transfer switch

[PARAPTOR]

I PaRaptor wrote:


Just to be clear, the transfer switch doesn't necessarily need to be protected, it's what is downstream of the transfer switch......the breaker panel. As I stated, if the surge supressor is wired in on the load side of the transfer switch (if you have sore power AND a generator) you will be protecting your breaker panel and everything it feeds.

If you have a transfer switch (because you have shore power AND generator power) the only way to protect the transfer switch incoming power from both sources is to have TWO surge supressors....one of them between the generator output and the transfer switch, and the other one between the shore power AND the transfer switch

I guess you can look at it that way ie , it is also not necessary to protect any of the contents of the entire rig. My goal was to protect the entire rig not merely part of it as your solution would do. The transfer switch is not merely a switch; it contains electronics which can be damaged just as well as other devices in the rig. So if you do not want to protect all devices in the rig you can leave the transfer switch unprotected and treat it was a replaceable fuse. As a matter of fact, you can only put surge protection on selected devices in the rig like some do in a stick house. Basically it comes down to what level of risk you are willing to take.

In regard to your only way comment, I do not personally think adding multiple surge protectors is a reasonable solution (economical or work scope) to providepartial protection to the entire rig. As I stated in the previous post there is a single transfer switch, which has integral surge protection, that will protect the entire rig having two power sources (Shore Power and built in Generator ).

It all comes down to how much do you want to protect.

[Cbrez]

We have a SurgeGuard 44270 that plugs in at the power pedestal. We plug in and wait for green lights before connecting to the 5er. We do not have a built in generator. Do you think you are better protected with the hard wired units or is it mostly a matter of convenience?

[bobbecky]

That Surgeguard 44270 is only a surge arrestor which has indicators for several wiring conditions, but does not provide an automatic disconnect if a problem occurs after you are connected. Also, there is only a one year warranty, unlike the Progressive products, which are lifetime. The EMS type products from Progressive will turn off the power if anything hazardous happens to the incoming power to prevent damage to your RV, unlike the surge arrestor type products of any of the manufacturers.

[xrated]

PARAPTOR Wrote:
In regard to your only way comment, I do not personally think adding multiple surge protectors is a reasonable solution (economical or work scope) to providepartial protection to the entire rig. As I stated in the previous post there is a single transfer switch, which has integral surge protection, that will protect the entire rig having two power sources (Shore Power and built in Generator ).


Can you please provide a link or info about a SINGLE surge supressor that provides protection to the entire rig when there is a transfer switch being used because of two power sources.........shore power AND generator power?

[Ddubya]

I just pulled the breaker panel out to gain access. There was enough slack in the wiring to get it out to work on it.
I was able to mount the Progressive unit on the floor behind the breaker panel.
I also mounted the display panel under the breaker panel on the flat wood surface.
Just get flexible wire to go from the Progressive unit to the breaker panel and you should have no problem.

[1st Chev Diesel]

I have seen how some folks wire in the Progressive surge protectors (bobecky for one) On another site I saw a picture of wiring with plug ends.

As there is a disconnect switch in the EMS-HW50C unit to allow power to the RV if the EMS fails (granted unprotected) then plug ends would serve no purpose.

Plug ends would make it easier to move the EMS unit to another RV.

What other advantages is there to wiring the EMS with plug ends?

Thanks. Gary

[xrated]

In my opinion, if you need mobility, buy the plug in type. A hard wired system should be hard wired in. Any additional plugs and receptacles are potential sources of loose connections.

[PARAPTOR]

Xrated , the surge protection is an integral part of the actual Transfer Switch, thereby protects the rig against both power sources (shore and generator). I suggest you do a search on the Forum to see older posts related to transfer switches and surge protection. Try a search say for an example on EMS,SURGE.

As I stated in a previous post my initial investigation into surge protection for my Raptor was in older posts on the Forum, Assuming I did things correctly here is the link to one of my posts.

http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15527&highlight=ems%2Csurge

The remote monitor is really nice option when something strange happens :hide: Other related posts will be found by doing the above referenced Forum Search, If you are not familiar with Transfer Switches and why they need to be protected a Google Search will provide additional information on the topic. If I recall installed my new surge protection transfer switch in 2014. Other than that one issue where it protected my rig from my own generator, I have had no issues and would do it again. Installation rather simple, due to difference in transfer switch sizes will need to move cables around.

Keep in mind new technology comes out each year, if interested in surge protection I would look at other products that may now be available. I definitely would not connect my rig to these camp site pedestals without some form of protection. :nonono:

Seen your comment about minimum connections, which is a good point. However these surge protection devices can fail and since it sits between your rig and the power source would be nice if you could bypass it if failed. Some units have a bypass built in, thought progressive has one? If not connectors on both ends would really be useful in an emergency. :facepalm:

Hope this helps

[xrated]

PARAPTOR.....I would like to know which one(s) have built in surge protection for both inputs.....I'm not seeing it.....neither the Surge Guard brand or the Progressive brand will protect the incoming line to the surge supressor or the transfer switch. The suppression is on the load side of both of those units.....which takes you right back to what I posted in some earlier posts in this thread.....about wiring in the surge supressor on the load side of the transfer switch.... i.e. before the input to the breaker panel.

And actually, after some research, the Progressive Surge protector that has been discussed in this thread, offers a higher level of surge protection than the Surge Guard transfer switch with built in surge protection (which is built into the load side of the switch)

Personally, I will be buying and putting a Progressive system in mine eventually, and it will be located between the load side of the transfer switch and the line going out to the breaker panel, as stated in the progressive instructions for applications that have both shore power and generator power.

[Lic0rice]

We have a 3400RL. The breaker box is over the toilet. I mounted my EMS-HW50C and remote battery monitor on the wall to the left of the breaker box. There was plenty of wire behind the breakers which made the install easy. The blinking of the monitor can be a bit annoying but only while in the head.

[bobbecky]

Another thing to remember after installing the Progressive EMS, is, if you use a generator with an unbonded ground, such as the Honda inverter type, you will need a plug, either commercially made, or just get a three prong plug and use a short piece of wire to connect between the ground and the neutral screws and plug into the other 20 amp outlet on the generator, so the EMS sees a bonded source. The use of this generator plug is safe to use, and is also discussed in the Progressive EMS installation manual, "This does not stop you from using a “generator plug” that ties together neutral and ground as this is perfectly safe"

[Outback 325BH]

I have seen how some folks wire in the Progressive surge protectors (bobecky for one) On another site I saw a picture of wiring with plug ends.

As there is a disconnect switch in the EMS-HW50C unit to allow power to the RV if the EMS fails (granted unprotected) then plug ends would serve no purpose.

Plug ends would make it easier to move the EMS unit to another RV.

What other advantages is there to wiring the EMS with plug ends?

Thanks. Gary



I have a hard-wired unit installed with plugs and receptacles. I did this for two reasons:
One, the "override" is not mechanical. It is done via the remote electronic display. If that (or the circuitry it connects to) fails, you cannot bypass.
Two, I can easily remove the unit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PARAPTOR]

PARAPTOR.....I would like to know which one(s) have built in surge protection for both inputs.....I'm not seeing it.....neither the Surge Guard brand or the Progressive brand will protect the incoming line to the surge supressor or the transfer switch. The suppression is on the load side of both of those units.....which takes you right back to what I posted in some earlier posts in this thread.....about wiring in the surge supressor on the load side of the transfer switch.... i.e. before the input to the breaker panel.

And actually, after some research, the Progressive Surge protector that has been discussed in this thread, offers a higher level of surge protection than the Surge Guard transfer switch with built in surge protection (which is built into the load side of the switch)

Personally, I will be buying and putting a Progressive system in mine eventually, and it will be located between the load side of the transfer switch and the line going out to the breaker panel, as stated in the progressive instructions for applications that have both shore power and generator power.

Think we have a communication problem, I have supplied you with information to answer your questions? Make sure in your research that you are not comparing apples and oranges. Seems like you have your mind set on placing a surge protector after the transfer switch, that leaves your transfer switch unprotected as stated before. You may want to do some more research either on this forum or the internet. Just curious are you running unprotected now?

OH By the way I took a quick peek on the Progressive Industries website http://www.progressiveindustries.net/faq

Here is a section of the their FAQ

Q: Should a Hardwired EMS be installed before or after the transfer switch?
A: A hardwired EMS should be installed prior to the transfer switch. The reason for this is most RV generators already have built-in voltage and frequency protection. If the EMS is installed after the transfer switch, this leaves the transfer switch vulnerable to power problem

Someone else on the Forum who has an on board generator, transfer switch and interest in having an EMS system may want to chime in to assist you. Not sure I can provide any more help.

Good Luck, let us know what you decide

[xrated]

PARAPTOR...I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on some of the points discussed here. I agree that a surge suppressor, installed ahead of the transfer switch will protect the transfer switch when it is being fed from shore power. That installation will also protect the electrical lines that feed the breaker panel and of course, the items that are fed from the breakers in that panel. With that type of installation, what will NOT be protected is all of the devices in your camper/motorhome/toy hauler/etc. when running on Generator power because the transfer switch has opened the circuit (shore power feed) and that is where the surge suppressor is located, on the line or entry side of the transfer switch that has shore power coming to it.

Further, I will state that if you want all of your camper/motorhome/ trailer/etc devices protected while running on shore power OR generator power, the surge suppressor MUST be installed between the load side of the transfer switch and the breaker panel. This can be right at the transfer switch or at the breaker panel area BEFORE the lines go into the breaker panel main breakers.

Here is a link to the Progressive Industries web site that features the EMS-LCHW50.....
http://www.progressiveindustries.net/ems-lchw50

When you click that link, and the page loads, click on the tab that says "technical data"
When that page loads, click on the link for "print installation & operating guide"....it's right below the picture of the smiling motorhome.
When that PDF file downloads, scroll down to page 4 and you will see instructions for installing the surge suppressor AHEAD of the transfer switch. This install will protect your transfer switch and everything down stream ...breaker panel and all of the devices in your camper that the shore power feeds.

Now scroll down to page 6 of that same installation manual. Pay VERY CLOSE ATTENTION to the title of that section......and I quote...

" Installation AFTER Transfer Box for Protection from BOTH Generator and A/C power" (what we all refer to as shore power)"

This tells me that if the surge suppressor is installed using that method (after the transfer switch) you will have protection for your camper/motorhome/trailer/etc., but NOT for the transfer switch itself. This leads right back to my earlier post when I stated the very same thing. In the scheme of things, if something happens and the transfer switch has to be replaced, it is a less expensive item than the downstream components in the trailer....air conditioning units refrigerators, satellite system components, and anything else that may operate on 120VAC. And remember, this installation will protect your trailer whether you are running on shore power OR generator power.

PS....I currently do not have any type or brand of surge suppressor. I bought the Toy Hauler in late October and it has been parked for the winter. I am adding mods to it over the winter, and a quality EMS system is on my list of things to add.

[cardinal96ss]

Interesting discussion. It sounds like everyone has an automated transfer switch, making me the odd man out. I installed a manual transfer switch and installed my Progressive surge protector between the switch and the breaker box. The coach is protected regardless of power source. The switch is simple and doesn't need protection.