TV is a SUV

[linux3]

I pull our Passport 195RB with a Ford Explorer Sport.
After testing every brand and type of truck I bought the SUV.
I very seldom see another SUV pulling anything but a pop-up.
What's up with that?
The Sport model has the Ecoboost 3.5 and very firm suspension and works great as our TV.
OK, the price is equal to or greater than a F150 but better I think as a daily driver.

Only down side is the 18.6 gal tank. I get 11 ~ 12 MPG so I have to stop for gas about every 2 hours. My wife thinks that's a good thing.

Are there others out there and I'm just not seeing them?

[sourdough]

I think that you don't see many SUVs pulling RVs is because they aren't meant to be tow vehicles; they are basically passenger vehicles. Even in the old days when they were body on frame, big V8 etc. they were never meant to be a "tow" vehicle. In your case, even with a rather small trailer, the published weights of the trailer exceed the towing capacity of your vehicle; max trailer weight and tongue weight. I own a 2017 Explorer and wouldn't dream of putting anything behind it but a small utility trailer - just not stable enough to compensate for the push/pull of a slab sided trailer behind it.

You're right, they are great as a daily driver....but that's what they were designed to be.

[Ken / Claudia]

I agree with post #2 100%. I am not saying you cannot. The makers make pickups for what your asking the SUV to do. My real life experience was with the 2008 exp 5.0 awd. Once awhile I would pull the listed boat with it. Really 40 mph up big hills. I now have a 2002 trail blazer I6 4x4. And tow the boat a few times with it. When I tow the boat with the listed truck, there is a big difference. Mostly about the wheel base length and width, secondly power. Until you tow with a truck, and a HD truck you may not understand the real difference it makes. Locally here a big RV dealer was commenting on what sells the most. He said the 22 to 26 footers sell more than any other TT because of the many people who want to tow with a SUV. If you follow this site much you will find those who did tow with a suv and did not like it and have a pickup now, all say what a difference. Some tow with a suv and say it is fine. Check your tires max wt. rating and weight your suv and trailer, check your GVWR and CGVWR and for your safety and the motoring public stay within or real close to the max numbers with your vehicles. With any suv it is easy to be overloaded and yes I did it years ago with nisson pathfinder and 2 tts a 14 ft and than a 19 ft. Shortly after the 19 fter came into the driveway so did a f150.

[CaptnJohn]

My wife enjoyed her Explorer as a daily driver until she retired and we moved south. The boats and TTs we had at the time were more than I'd hook up to it though. The numbers on it were about right for a popup as you mentioned. Short wheelbase TVs ~~

[RGene7001]

Why?
Because most people like easy solutions, but there is virtually no SUV on the market which has both capability and ratings to tow a decent size TT.
Tahoes and Expeditions have generous tow and hitch ratings but unfavorable rear overhang/ wheelbase ratio and softer suspensions kill their stabilty with TT and many people become disappointed with them
German midsize SUVs are excellent in terms of geometry, design and powertrain capability but most suffer from weak hitch receivers, either with insufficient rating or just incompatible with WD hitches, so aftermarket modification is necessary (and there is only one place on the continent where this can be done well).
The best towing SUVs on the market are probably Jeep Grand Cherokee and Dodge Durango, they feature Mercedes platform and hitch receiver capable to handle up to 720 lb with WD.
Passport 195 RB is quite lite and small, so the new Explorer should handle it without difficulty, the only question is how soon you will want something bigger and with more amenities.

[sourdough]

Why?
Because most people like easy solutions, but there is virtually no SUV on the market which has both capability and ratings to tow a decent size TT.
Tahoes and Expeditions have generous tow and hitch ratings but unfavorable rear overhang/ wheelbase ratio and softer suspensions kill their stabilty with TT and many people become disappointed with them
German midsize SUVs are excellent in terms of geometry, design and powertrain capability but most suffer from weak hitch receivers, either with insufficient rating or just incompatible with WD hitches, so aftermarket modification is necessary (and there is only one place on the continent where this can be done well).
The best towing SUVs on the market are probably Jeep Grand Cherokee and Dodge Durango, they feature Mercedes platform and hitch receiver capable to handle up to 720 lb with WD.
Passport 195 RB is quite lite and small, so the new Explorer should handle it without difficulty, the only question is how soon you will want something bigger and with more amenities.

I have to question your assertion that the Explorer can handle the trailer without difficulty. By every spec posted the Explorer would be over loaded. I have a 2017, not 2016, and I, in my right mind, would not hitch a trailer wit a GVW in excess of 5100 lbs to that vehicle...not in any way.

This poster pulls a trailer with a Mercedes SUV... not known for their towing prowess. I thought about buying one, drove it and determined, as he said, the Jeep Grand Cherokee or Durango were not only far better bargains, but, had far better specs. At the time I tested them the ML 350, or 500, lacked most everything the other brands offered except a high price.

The spec on the Explorer limits hitch weight to 500 lbs...period. What a the Durango or the GC can haul is irrelevant. Don't let those that choose to ignore the established limits of vehicles as related to towing mess you up.

[RGene7001]

I have to question your assertion that the Explorer can handle the trailer without difficulty. By every spec posted the Explorer would be over loaded. I have a 2017, not 2016, and I, in my right mind, would not hitch a trailer wit a GVW in excess of 5100 lbs to that vehicle...not in any way.

This poster pulls a trailer with a Mercedes SUV... not known for their towing prowess. I thought about buying one, drove it and determined, as he said, the Jeep Grand Cherokee or Durango were not only far better bargains, but, had far better specs. At the time I tested them the ML 350, or 500, lacked most everything the other brands offered except a high price.

The spec on the Explorer limits hitch weight to 500 lbs...period. What a the Durango or the GC can haul is irrelevant. Don't let those that choose to ignore the established limits of vehicles as related to towing mess you up.

There is no chance someone will put 1400 lb of stuff into 195 rb, gross weight is meaningless, just a statement that trailer axles are capable to handle 5100 lb. Hitch weight will be around 500 lb with reasonable and sufficient amount of fresh water after weight distribution hitch is engaged, which will transfer 10% of weight back to the trailer axles.
Mercedes is rated for up to 7200 lb of towing capacity (up to 7700 lb in Europe) and it is a TV of choice across the pond, where people tow trailers similar to mine WITHOUT weight distrubution and sway control, because stability is already factored in the design of the ML or similar vehicle by virtue of heavy weight, favorable geometry, suspension design, electronic vehicle and trailer stabilization
The newest JGC and Durangos finally got 8 speed ZF transmission are probably caught up with Mercedes in terms of technology. However, with right wheels, towing package, all the bells and whistles the sticker price will be very close to $50k, and the advantage over Mercedes with longer warranty, better quality of materials and assembly is not so obvious.

[jkohler70]

My Borrego was only produced for one year, but they did have towing in mind. It's body-on-frame, pre-wired for brake controller. It has a heavy duty Z-F transmission, larger radiator, tranny cooler, and alternator. If even has a switch to turn off the back up sensor when hitched. The V8 pulls strong and I have no sway issues. I've only fallen below 60 MPH once while towing through the Ozarks. My RV is 4800# dry and my tow capacity is 7500#.

[Ken / Claudia]

Not trying to beat you up but, list your payload rating and tire max rating. My guess is it will be less to a lot less than a pickup. Although SUVs tend to weigh more than a pickup of about the same size, that no other reasons lower the payload rating. Again putting a pickup at a better tow vehicle as to what sizes it can pull and load it can carry.

[RGene7001]

Not trying to beat you up but, list your payload rating and tire max rating. My guess is it will be less to a lot less than a pickup. Although SUVs tend to weigh more than a pickup of about the same size, that no other reasons lower the payload rating. Again putting a pickup at a better tow vehicle as to what sizes it can pull and load it can carry.

I use 107 rating tires which carry 2,149 lb each for 8,596 lb total. I fould my old weight receipt with my previous Passport. There was 1/3 tank of gas, 1/3 tank of water, stuff for a 5 days trip, now I carry slightly more, perhaps with new, slightly heavier Passport, grown up DD there are a couple hundred pounds more on the hitch and the TV.

[sourdough]

I use 107 rating tires which carry 2,149 lb each for 8,596 lb total. I fould my old weight receipt with my previous Passport. There was 1/3 tank of gas, 1/3 tank of water, stuff for a 5 days trip, now I carry slightly more, perhaps with new, slightly heavier Passport, grown up DD there are a couple hundred pounds more on the hitch and the TV.

The sticker is missing the payload??

[RGene7001]

The sticker is missing the payload??

The payload on the sticker is 1201 lb, excluding 150 lb driver. Apparently, even this figure a very conservative, given that the curb weight is listed @ 4,632 lb, so the difference from 6,173 lb GVWR is 1,541 lb

[sourdough]

Apparently, by all legal specs, you have a payload of a bit over 1000 lbs with a 150 lb driver and nothing else? That is typical Mercedes. They are for drivers...not for towing trailers.
In real life your observations about what should or shouldn't count don't matter. You are overweight, and towing with a very short, unstable tow vehicle.

It really doesn't matter what you "think" your ratings are....they are actually posted on your door frame. And you say you now carry a heavier trailer...hmm. The hitch weight for the listed trailer you have is 625 dry, read over 800 in real life. Then you say it would now be over 200 from that. 800 - 1000lbs hitch weight for a tiny SUV? With a max hitch weight of 500 lbs.? I think most folks know that trying to pull anything with a small SUV isn't the best thing. Pulling them overweight, with your vehicle in a dangerous situation then telling others to do the same is irresponsible.

[RGene7001]

Apparently, by all legal specs, you have a payload of a bit over 1000 lbs with a 150 lb driver and nothing else? That is typical Mercedes. They are for drivers...not for towing trailers.
In real life your observations about what should or shouldn't count don't matter. You are overweight, and towing with a very short, unstable tow vehicle.

It really doesn't matter what you "think" your ratings are....they are actually posted on your door frame. And you say you now carry a heavier trailer...hmm. The hitch weight for the listed trailer you have is 625 dry, read over 800 in real life. Then you say it would now be over 200 from that. 800 - 1000lbs hitch weight for a tiny SUV? With a max hitch weight of 500 lbs.? I think most folks know that trying to pull anything with a small SUV isn't the best thing. Pulling them overweight, with your vehicle in a dangerous situation then telling others to do the same is irresponsible.

Sourdough,
Please don't use word "legal" when its not applicable to the matter. While I am not a lawyer, I did my homework and certainly became familiar with typical "Weight Police" Cool Aid. Can you tell me which Federal or State low I violate?
http://www.hitchemup.com/statetowinglaws.htm
Definitely, its no good to go over GVWR of either TV or trailer, but I am several hundred pounds short of it and can even put 4th person in the vehicle if needed.
I would remind you that proper WD hitch moves about 15% of tongue weight back to the trailer axles, and this definitely helps my case.
There may be different approaches here and in Europe re inclusion of driver into the Curb Weight. It is important to weigh the vehicle with all liquids but without occupants to know your allowance if there are any doubts.
Yes, original Mercedes hitch receiver is not acceptable and mine is professionally modified and reinforced to make it able to transfer weight distributing forces to the unibody and to boost its capacity to up to 1,200 lb. Perhaps, your best bet is to lobby the legislature to ban all aftermarket modification of the vehicles, as well as towing of jetskis and utility trailers by sedans like Toyota Corolla, but I suspect, Uhaul may object to such law, as well as 30-50% of south Florida drivers.
Unstable? Dangerous? Irresponsible? But are there any objective tests or measurements which can determine what is still "safe" and "responsible" and what is not? My biggest problem is not "white knuckles " from wildly swaying trailer, but staying awake during long trips. Surely ,everything have limitations and I wound not go if winds approach tropical storm force, but if the winds are less than 25 mph I have no problems and in 95% of cases don't have even slight feel of passing 18 wheelers.
What else? Insurance denials in the case of accident? I read my policy and they state about 10 reasons when coverage may be denied. None of these reasons have anything to do with trailers, weights or modifications.

[sourdough]

Sourdough,
Please don't use word "legal" when its not applicable to the matter. While I am not a lawyer, I did my homework and certainly became familiar with typical "Weight Police" Cool Aid. Can you tell me which Federal or State low I violate?
http://www.hitchemup.com/statetowinglaws.htm
Definitely, its no good to go over GVWR of either TV or trailer, but I am several hundred pounds short of it and can even put 4th person in the vehicle if needed.
I would remind you that proper WD hitch moves about 15% of tongue weight back to the trailer axles, and this definitely helps my case.
There may be different approaches here and in Europe re inclusion of driver into the Curb Weight. It is important to weigh the vehicle with all liquids but without occupants to know your allowance if there are any doubts.
Yes, original Mercedes hitch receiver is not acceptable and mine is professionally modified and reinforced to make it able to transfer weight distributing forces to the unibody and to boost its capacity to up to 1,200 lb. Perhaps, your best bet is to lobby the legislature to ban all aftermarket modification of the vehicles, as well as towing of jetskis and utility trailers by sedans like Toyota Corolla, but I suspect, Uhaul may object to such law, as well as 30-50% of south Florida drivers.
Unstable? Dangerous? Irresponsible? But are there any objective tests or measurements which can determine what is still "safe" and "responsible" and what is not? My biggest problem is not "white knuckles " from wildly swaying trailer, but staying awake during long trips. Surely ,everything have limitations and I wound not go if winds approach tropical storm force, but if the winds are less than 25 mph I have no problems and in 95% of cases don't have even slight feel of passing 18 wheelers.
What else? Insurance denials in the case of accident? I read my policy and they state about 10 reasons when coverage may be denied. None of these reasons have anything to do with trailers, weights or modifications.

I am not the weight police nor will I be the one investigating an accident if and when it happens. What you choose to do when towing, whether safe or unsafe, is up to you as long as it doesn't hurt me or someone else. However, when a person new to towing asks about weight limitations/guidelines, I think it is irresponsible to tell them that the legal weights posted on the vehicles actually mean nothing and to basically "do what you want". That kind of guidance can lead to serious, or tragic, consequences.

I've driven SUVs for the last 30 years or so. I can safely say that NONE (and there have been dozens) of them are cut out to tow a very big trailer. You say you don't have white knuckles? Drop your trailer on the back of a 3/4 or one ton and pull it down the highway. You will find that you are actually living with white knuckles but think it's normal. Anyway, to each his own and I wish you, and all of us, safe travels.

[RGene7001]

I am not the weight police nor will I be the one investigating an accident if and when it happens. What you choose to do when towing, whether safe or unsafe, is up to you as long as it doesn't hurt me or someone else. However, when a person new to towing asks about weight limitations/guidelines, I think it is irresponsible to tell them that the legal weights posted on the vehicles actually mean nothing and to basically "do what you want". That kind of guidance can lead to serious, or tragic, consequences.

I've driven SUVs for the last 30 years or so. I can safely say that NONE (and there have been dozens) of them are cut out to tow a very big trailer. You say you don't have white knuckles? Drop your trailer on the back of a 3/4 or one ton and pull it down the highway. You will find that you are actually living with white knuckles but think it's normal. Anyway, to each his own and I wish you, and all of us, safe travels.
What you say is generally true, and I have similar feelings when I see a combination which not set up correctly, be it sagging rear end or drawbar extending by a foot or more from the bumper. Or single axle TT or Popup swinging wildly behind an SUV. Surely, many people would like to tow with an existing vehicle, not everybody is able to live with a pickup truck on everyday basis or simply have another $50k. I always tell new people that towing with an SUV is a difficult technical problem where bigger is not necessarily better, not all SUVs are created equal, and well marketed "advanced" hitches are not likely to work.
Awareness of the trailer is not the same as "white knuckles ", it actually prevents you from doing crazy things, like going to fast, following to closely, or changing lanes without reason. Over tens of thousands of miles I was close to "white knuckles" ones or twice due to tire or hitch problem, but ML's ESP/TSP blasted trailer brakes in split second so I did not get chance to experience this type of "fun" fully.
Good luck

[bsmith0404]

Everyone please keep in mind that safety is the important factor. Although TV set-ups and driver experience can have an impact, in the end manufacturer specifications is what we need to go by. Some will ask why? Very simple, if there is ever an accident, you may or may not get a ticket for being overloaded, but a lawyer will gladly file a lawsuit for negligence. However, what is lost in that statement is the reason for the lawsuit. If someone is injured or worse because we overload our vehicles and the extra weight ends up being the difference in being able to avoid an accident or not, the end result can never be undone.

[ftrupe]

I tow a 23RB with a 6 cylinder 2014 Dodge Durango, which is also my wife's daily driver. The Durango's payload is 1200 pounds and some Ram trucks were only 1180. I use the Equalizer hitch and am quite pleased with combo for where I travel to. It is just the DW and I, so we don't carry a lot of cargo and we only camp with full hookups, so no added weight of carrying water.

[CaptnJohn]

I'm still wondering about "professionally modified and reinforced to make it able to transfer weight distributing forces to the unibody and to boost its capacity to up to 1,200 lb.".

[440justin]

I tow a 23RB with a 6 cylinder 2014 Dodge Durango, which is also my wife's daily driver. The Durango's payload is 1200 pounds and some Ram trucks were only 1180. I use the Equalizer hitch and am quite pleased with combo for where I travel to. It is just the DW and I, so we don't carry a lot of cargo and we only camp with full hookups, so no added weight of carrying water.
I would go and scale the setup, I think you will find the hitch weight alot higher than you think it is. I have the 23RB and the hitch weight is about 800lbs without water. You will find Slow had also posted his weights and was over 700lbs on a 23RB. That just does not leave much payload to play with on most SUV, and many highly optioned 1/2 trucks.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[RGene7001]

I'm still wondering about "professionally modified and reinforced to make it able to transfer weight distributing forces to the unibody and to boost its capacity to up to 1,200 lb.".
Something like this... But mine is way more beautiful, 100% invisible, I dont have urea tank

[linux3]

I've driven SUVs for the last 30 years or so. I can safely say that NONE (and there have been dozens) of them are cut out to tow a very big trailer. You say you don't have white knuckles? Drop your trailer on the back of a 3/4 or one ton and pull it down the highway. You will find that you are actually living with white knuckles but think it's normal. Anyway, to each his own and I wish you, and all of us, safe travels.
I'm not towing a big trailer. Passport 195RB.
We never dry camp so the fresh water tank is empty. I drain gray and black water tanks when leaving.
Trailer weight is 3710 plus extras and food and cloths etc I'm still way under the Explorer's 5000 lbs and 500 lbs tongue limits.
The SUV weighs 4800 lbs, way more than the TT. It came with HD suspension, Tow Mode and anti-sway from the factory. Pre wired with 7 pin, hitch and brake control. 365 HP and 350 torques, more with premium gas.
With a Husky TS hitch the TT pulls straight and easy. The hills of Western PA and NY are no problem.

I don't doubt that I made the right choice, I was just curious why others thought different.

[JRTJH]

I'm not towing a big trailer. Passport 195RB.
We never dry camp so the fresh water tank is empty. I drain gray and black water tanks when leaving.
Trailer weight is 3710 plus extras and food and cloths etc I'm still way under the Explorer's 5000 lbs and 500 lbs tongue limits.
The SUV weighs 4800 lbs, way more than the TT. It came with HD suspension, Tow Mode and anti-sway from the factory. Pre wired with 7 pin, hitch and brake control. 365 HP and 350 torques, more with premium gas.
With a Husky TS hitch the TT pulls straight and easy. The hills of Western PA and NY are no problem.

I don't doubt that I made the right choice, I was just curious why others thought different.

Not to sound "argumentative", but the empty tongue weight of the 195RB is listed at 405 pounds, add 40 pounds of propane, a 50 pound battery and box, hang a 100 pound WD hitch onto the receiver of your Explorer and you're over that 500 pound "max tongue weight" before you add any cargo to your trailer. I don't think anyone here has a "belief" that you're going to change your mind, so tow whatever you want with whatever you choose, but don't "speculate the numbers" to make it seem like you're "OK" when the only way to know for sure if you're under your max is to tow your rig to a certified scale and see what the weight ticket actually shows. I'd make an "experienced, distance related guess" that when you add "camping gear", you're approaching 600 - 700 pounds of weight on your 2" receiver.

The HP/torque, added accessories and number of pins in the umbilical don't make a TV/trailer setup "safer" or "more dangerous". No doubt your Explorer is capable of "pulling" your trailer. Those features don't make it any safer or more capable of "towing". They just make "forward momentum" less "painful".

As an anecdotal comparison, just because a Cessna 172 wing is "capable" of 4G's and 350 KIAS doesn't mean that you can install a jet engine and make it a "high speed aerobatic craft".....

[Ken / Claudia]

All vehicles have their limits and pickups have bigger limits than SUVs and real bigger limits if you go to a HD truck for RV towing.
If I posted I tow a 5th wheel trailer with a 4,000 pin wt. and trailer wt. at 20,000 lbs scale wt. And my vehicle said payload max wt. is 3,000 and trailer is 16,000 lb max towing.(Just made up numbers to make a point) I hope everyone would say, hey your over weight and trying to make your vehicle do what the engineers never built it for. If my numbers were real I have no doubt I could find someone out there that says they do it. That still don't make it right.

[Desert185]

"As an anecdotal comparison, just because a Cessna 172 wing is "capable" of 4G's and 350 KIAS doesn't mean that you can install a jet engine and make it a "high speed aerobatic craft"..."

Not even close to those G's and that speed. :D

...and not even Bob Hoover (RIP) could do that in a 172.

[JRTJH]

"As an anecdotal comparison, just because a Cessna 172 wing is "capable" of 4G's and 350 KIAS doesn't mean that you can install a jet engine and make it a "high speed aerobatic craft"..."

Not even close to those G's and that speed. :D

...and not even Bob Hoover (RIP) could do that in a 172.

My point exactly. "somebody/somewhere" managed to survive it, but everyone else had problems even getting close. That means (I suppose) it's "possible but not probable".... sort of like believing the Keystone website's tongue weight is what you'll have when you tow to your "regular campground".....

Speaking of Bob Hoover, he died yesterday at age 94. I still "marvel" at how he managed to keep his license through all his "stunts" and "thrills" without the FAA grounding him. I guess once you're a "legend" the "regulators" look the other way ..... LOL

[Desert185]

My point exactly. "somebody/somewhere" managed to survive it, but everyone else had problems even getting close. That means (I suppose) it's "possible but not probable".... sort of like believing the Keystone website's tongue weight is what you'll have when you tow to your "regular campground".....

Speaking of Bob Hoover, he died yesterday at age 94. I still "marvel" at how he managed to keep his license through all his "stunts" and "thrills" without the FAA grounding him. I guess once you're a "legend" the "regulators" look the other way ..... LOL

The feds actually took his medical away when he was 72 because they thought he lacked awareness. The joke was on them, of course.

I met the gentleman legend at the Reno Air Races Sept 2015 when he signed my copy of his book "Forever Flying". What an honor to meet the guy Jimmy Doolittle described as "the best stick and rudder pilot who ever lived".

[zuley]

Not that it is worth anything let me add my experience to the SUV debate. We too have a 23RB that I had convinced my self that my diesel Grand Cherokee would be sufficirent as a tow vehicle. Towed home from the dealer with nothing loaded. Towed like a dream. Loaded it up the following weekend and headed out for the May 2-4. I had convinced myself I was safe and good to go. Made it to the camp site, had a great weekend. Jeep towed like a dream with power to spare. On the way home coming out of a forested area we took a cross wind that litterally moved the Jeep and the trailer, as one, across the centre line. I bought a truck the next day. I've read most of the posts here but I don't recall anyone touching on the short wheel base issues with SUV as compared to pick up trucks. My weights were all in accordance with the TV ratings but the short wheel base made it unsuitable as a tow vehicle.

[JRTJH]

I met him at Edwards AFB in the early 70's. He was the guest speaker at a Flight Test Center dining out. He talked about his "escape from Germany" during WW2. One can always "identify a real fighter pilot" by their inability to talk without both hands being in close formation as they describe most anything. He was quite the character and thoroughly enjoyed his F106 back seat "orientation flight" provided by the NASA team. It was most entertaining to listen to the intercom tapes after the flight. He did more "instructing" than "orienting" from wheels up to "nose gear steering" I believe it was Buzz Aldrin (who at that time, was the commander of the USAF Test Pilot School) in the front seat of that "six" and Hoover earned his Mach 2 pin on that flight.

[sourdough]

Not that it is worth anything let me add my experience to the SUV debate. We too have a 23RB that I had convinced my self that my diesel Grand Cherokee would be sufficirent as a tow vehicle. Towed home from the dealer with nothing loaded. Towed like a dream. Loaded it up the following weekend and headed out for the May 2-4. I had convinced myself I was safe and good to go. Made it to the camp site, had a great weekend. Jeep towed like a dream with power to spare. On the way home coming out of a forested area we took a cross wind that litterally moved the Jeep and the trailer, as one, across the centre line. I bought a truck the next day. I've read most of the posts here but I don't recall anyone touching on the short wheel base issues with SUV as compared to pick up trucks. My weights were all in accordance with the TV ratings but the short wheel base made it unsuitable as a tow vehicle.

You make a great point. I believe it has been discussed in the past on this forum but it needs to be brought up again. That is one of the main reasons the SUV is not an ideal TV and can cause you real grief, real fast.

[Ken / Claudia]

Post #3 I did list wheel base length and width as a reason pickups tow better than SUVs. And until you go from one to the other most likely do not know how much difference it can and will make.

[RGene7001]

IbPost #3 I did list wheel base length and width as a reason pickups tow better than SUVs. And until you go from one to the other most likely do not know how much difference it can and will make.

... and shortened rear overhang in some SUVs compared to "average" 50 inch puckup truck rear overhang can make these SUVs really great TV- IF THEY ARE SET UP CORRECTLY. For example, my ML with wheelbase of 114.7 and rear overhang of just 35 inches (measured from rear axle to the end of hitch receiver tube) is geometrically equivalent to a pickup truck with wheelbase of about 163 inches, and it behaves on the road exactly this way. This is not a Ford Bronco or old Cherokee. However, it is very easy to destroy towing performance of such SUV by attaching bulky adjustable hitch head with long towbar, so the short rear overhang gets extended beyond what is absolutely necessary.

[sourdough]

I'm not towing a big trailer. Passport 195RB.
We never dry camp so the fresh water tank is empty. I drain gray and black water tanks when leaving.
Trailer weight is 3710 plus extras and food and cloths etc I'm still way under the Explorer's 5000 lbs and 500 lbs tongue limits.
The SUV weighs 4800 lbs, way more than the TT. It came with HD suspension, Tow Mode and anti-sway from the factory. Pre wired with 7 pin, hitch and brake control. 365 HP and 350 torques, more with premium gas.
With a Husky TS hitch the TT pulls straight and easy. The hills of Western PA and NY are no problem.

I don't doubt that I made the right choice, I was just curious why others thought different.

You're driving a 2016 Explorer if I recall. I drive a 2017. I wouldn't pull the trailer you talk about for love or money with my Explorer. Why? It is not an adequate TV. Why do I know that? I've pulled all kinds of trailers with all kinds of vehicles. A midsize SUV like the Explorer is adequate for a small flat bed trailer....not an fair sized RV. I don't recall where you're from but I can tell you flat out that if you are pulling your RV down the road in TX driving 60 mph and a semi comes by you at 80-85 mph (normal speed limit is 75 - many semis run the speeds I mentioned all the time) your little SUV will be sucked into the side of the truck if you don't see it, OR, you will be spending minutes watching him approach, grabbing the wheel, then doing everything you can do not to be sucked in. Not the way it should be.

You made the right choice for you as you say.....you just don't know what a true effortless towing experience is.

[Desert185]

I met him at Edwards AFB in the early 70's. He was the guest speaker at a Flight Test Center dining out. He talked about his "escape from Germany" during WW2. One can always "identify a real fighter pilot" by their inability to talk without both hands being in close formation as they describe most anything. He was quite the character and thoroughly enjoyed his F106 back seat "orientation flight" provided by the NASA team. It was most entertaining to listen to the intercom tapes after the flight. He did more "instructing" than "orienting" from wheels up to "nose gear steering" I believe it was Buzz Aldrin (who at that time, was the commander of the USAF Test Pilot School) in the front seat of that "six" and Hoover earned his Mach 2 pin on that flight.

Aldrin is an interesting guy who was accepted to the third astronaut class in 1963 without having been a test pilot (a first). He went to the moon in 1969 where he was the first to urinate and have communion on the moon. When retiring from NASA in 1971, he was assigned as Commander of the USAF Test Pilot School before retiring from the Air Force less than a year later.

[sourdough]

Ib

... and shortened rear overhang in some SUVs compared to "average" 50 inch puckup truck rear overhang can make these SUVs really great TV- IF THEY ARE SET UP CORRECTLY. For example, my ML with wheelbase of 114.7 and rear overhang of just 35 inches (measured from rear axle to the end of hitch receiver tube) is geometrically equivalent to a pickup truck with wheelbase of about 163 inches, and it behaves on the road exactly this way. This is not a Ford Bronco or old Cherokee. However, it is very easy to destroy towing performance of such SUV by attaching bulky adjustable hitch head with long towbar, so the short rear overhang gets extended beyond what is absolutely necessary.

I think we've beat this thing to death. You are very obviously enamored of your ML pulling most anything despite what is rated for. That is your decision. When you get to the point of trying to explain this or that so that you think that you are beyond factory specs....you are trying to convince yourself. Your mods, from what I see, did not change axles, gearing, springs all around etc. You seem to now have a 1000 lb. hitch with a factory hitch limit of 500. I point these things out because, 1) IMO you have made a bad decision. You said you don't have the money to buy a new tow vehicle just for the trailer....that does not make it right to cut safety corners, and 2) your comments will lead others, new to towing, to make bad decisions.

Lots of folks come to this site looking for good, sensible information on how to tow. You've taken a vehicle, not suitable for towing RVs IMO (I've driven them - a 350? my drive in it said it was very weak) and then made your mods. In the end you are advocating that folks can just grab an inadequate SUV and it's OK (if they make some "vague" modifications that virtually all unknowledgeable members will have no idea of.

I have nothing to grind about what you are doing. You just have to understand that your assertions, wrongly, can hurt someone.

Can you pull a fair sized RV with an SUV like a Durango, ML, JGC,or the like? It will "pull" it, it can't control it, nor is it safe...IMO.

[RGene7001]

You're driving a 2016 Explorer if I recall. I drive a 2017. I wouldn't pull the trailer you talk about for love or money with my Explorer. Why? It is not an adequate TV. Why do I know that? I've pulled all kinds of trailers with all kinds of vehicles. A midsize SUV like the Explorer is adequate for a small flat bed trailer....not an fair sized RV. I don't recall where you're from but I can tell you flat out that if you are pulling your RV down the road in TX driving 60 mph and a semi comes by you at 80-85 mph (normal speed limit is 75 - many semis run the speeds I mentioned all the time) your little SUV will be sucked into the side of the truck if you don't see it, OR, you will be spending minutes watching him approach, grabbing the wheel, then doing everything you can do not to be sucked in. Not the way it should be.

You made the right choice for you as you say.....you just don't know what a true effortless towing experience is.

Semis, as well as "colleagues" with motorhomes or diesel duallies with fifth wheels bordered me initially to some extent but a combination of raised to 45 psi tire pressure, new heavier Passport and a habit to keep closer to the right side of the lane made them a nonissue. They pass me, I pass them, mostly when going uphill. There is no way to beat 268hp per 11,000 lb. LOL.

[sourdough]

Semis, as well as "colleagues" with motorhomes or diesel duallies with fifth wheels bordered me initially to some extent but a combination of raised to 45 psi tire pressure, new heavier Passport and a habit to keep closer to the right side of the lane made them a nonissue. They pass me, I pass them, mostly when going uphill. There is no way to beat 268hp per 11,000 lb. LOL.

268 hp? Pulling almost 7000 lbs? The torque is probably 250 lbs (it is a Merc)? Again, pulling 7000 lbs? To me that's a grocery getter. My Explorer is 290 hp and I wouldn't dream of doing what you are doing. Not HP, it's the construction of the vehicle.

Raising pressure on your P rated tires to 45 psi (assuming normal max is 44) doesn't do much. You need higher rated tires. You don't want to find that out when you are careening off the highway because you "think" your are good. Again it is what it is, and your are as smart as you are. Not to be adversarial, just dealing in reality.

[RGene7001]

268 hp? Pulling almost 7000 lbs? The torque is probably 250 lbs (it is a Merc)? Again, pulling 7000 lbs? To me that's a grocery getter. My Explorer is 290 hp and I wouldn't dream of doing what you are doing. Not HP, it's the construction of the vehicle.

Raising pressure on your P rated tires to 45 psi (assuming normal max is 44) doesn't do much. You need higher rated tires. You don't want to find that out when you are careening off the highway because you "think" your are good. Again it is what it is, and your are as smart as you are. Not to be adversarial, just dealing in reality.

No, the normal pressure is 36-38 as per fuel sticker. I can boost tires to 50 cold in accordance with the sidewall. But 45 appears to be a sweet spot.
300-400 hp diesel may accelerate subjectively more comfortably and handle the headwind better. But when it comes to the max speed you can pull the weight up, horsepower per unit of weight will beat torque. And I doubt I have 7000 lb, more like 6000, 6200 with bikes- see my weight receipt in the beginning.
Ok, may be a 3500 dually will tow better and it will be much more forgiving to the setup, and it can handle something much better than Passport, but the real problem for me and many others is to live with it every day, when not towing.

[sourdough]

No, the normal pressure is 36-38 as per fuel sticker. I can boost tires to 50 cold in accordance with the sidewall. But 45 appears to be a sweet spot.
300-400 hp diesel may accelerate subjectively more comfortably and handle the headwind better. But when it comes to the max speed you can pull the weight up, horsepower per unit of weight will beat torque. And I doubt I have 7000 lb, more like 6000, 6200 with bikes- see my weight receipt in the beginning.
Ok, may be a 3500 dually will tow better and it will be much more forgiving to the setup, and it can handle something much better than Passport, but the real problem for me and many others is to live with it every day, when not towing.

Understand. What you are saying is that you are living with what you have and trying to do the best you can....say that in your posts.

You don't have the optimal towing setup...and you know that. Please just acknowledge that and let folks know what you are doing to try to compensate for that...not saying it all works out OK no matter what you do.

You need to do what I do. Bought a new 2012 pickup, did not live up to what I wanted, bought a new 2014 HD and now looking at a '16 when they try to sell them off. Bought a new '17 Ford Explorer for mom at the end of July. Not happy with it. Will get a new Sequoia by the end of Nov. Don't live with things that don't work....IMO.

[RGene7001]

Understand. What you are saying is that you are living with what you have and trying to do the best you can....say that in your posts.

You don't have the optimal towing setup...and you know that. Please just acknowledge that and let folks know what you are doing to try to compensate for that...not saying it all works out OK no matter what you do.

You need to do what I do. Bought a new 2012 pickup, did not live up to what I wanted, bought a new 2014 HD and now looking at a '16 when they try to sell them off. Bought a new '17 Ford Explorer for mom at the end of July. Not happy with it. Will get a new Sequoia by the end of Nov. Don't live with things that don't work....IMO.
But then we going back to the beginning. What is the definition of "does work"? Any objective numbers, tests in performance, stability etc? But in fact most people on the forum like to talk about "comfort" ,"experience" and so on, and most never had a chance to test a Canam rig. I am a part of a small community, there are maybe thousands of us among millions, and for most the people was not easy to take the plunge. But it starts from education and knowledge, and then comes experience, and eventually you get your own understanding and stereotypes of what works and what does not, and you keep doing things this way, usually get your next vehicle and go straight to Canam.
Interestingly, most of my critics are on line, in real world on the rest areas people are mostly amazed by coolness, esthetics and balance of my combo, ask questions, own similar vehicles and want to get into RVing...
Absolute majoruty of people actually living with what they have, I see plenty of popups, small 16 footers without slides, everything is relative. And once in a while I see motorhome or fifth wheel in the gutter with wheels up...Why this happened with them if they did everything right? Were they overloaded? Of course, because there are no other causes of accidents when it comes to RV, without it people may speed, drink, text, fall asleep, be blown by the wind..., but with TT its only weight or short wheelbase.
Ok, enough philosophy for the evening.

[RGene7001]

Understand. What you are saying is that you are living with what you have and trying to do the best you can....say that in your posts.

You don't have the optimal towing setup...and you know that. Please just acknowledge that and let folks know what you are doing to try to compensate for that...not saying it all works out OK no matter what you do.

You need to do what I do. Bought a new 2012 pickup, did not live up to what I wanted, bought a new 2014 HD and now looking at a '16 when they try to sell them off. Bought a new '17 Ford Explorer for mom at the end of July. Not happy with it. Will get a new Sequoia by the end of Nov. Don't live with things that don't work....IMO.
But then we going back to the beginning. What is the definition of "does work"? Any objective numbers, tests in performance, stability etc? But in fact most people on the forum like to talk about "comfort" ,"experience" and so on, and most never had a chance to test a Canam rig. I am a part of a small community, there are maybe thousands of us among millions, and for most the people was not easy to take the plunge. But it starts from education and knowledge, and then comes experience, and eventually you get your own understanding and stereotypes of what works and what does not, and you keep doing things this way, usually get your next vehicle and go straight to Canam.
Interestingly, most of my critics are on line, in real world on the rest areas people are mostly amazed by coolness, esthetics and balance of my combo, ask questions, own similar vehicles and want to get into RVing...
Absolute majoruty of people actually living with what they have, I see plenty of popups, small 16 footers without slides, everything is relative. And once in a while I see motorhome or fifth wheel in the gutter with wheels up...Why this happened with them if they did everything right? Were they overloaded? Of course, because there are no other causes of accidents when it comes to RV, without it people may speed, drink, text, fall asleep, be blown by the wind..., but with TT its only weight or short wheelbase.
Ok, enough philosophy for the evening.

[sourdough]

But then we going back to the beginning. What is the definition of "does work"? Any objective numbers, tests in performance, stability etc? But in fact most people on the forum like to talk about "comfort" ,"experience" and so on, and most never had a chance to test a Canam rig. I am a part of a small community, there are maybe thousands of us among millions, and for most the people was not easy to take the plunge. But it starts from education and knowledge, and then comes experience, and eventually you get your own understanding and stereotypes of what works and what does not, and you keep doing things this way, usually get your next vehicle and go straight to Canam.
Interestingly, most of my critics are on line, in real world on the rest areas people are mostly amazed by coolness, esthetics and balance of my combo, ask questions, own similar vehicles and want to get into RVing...
Absolute majoruty of people actually living with what they have, I see plenty of popups, small 16 footers without slides, everything is relative. And once in a while I see motorhome or fifth wheel in the gutter with wheels up...Why this happened with them if they did everything right? Were they overloaded? Of course, because there are no other causes of accidents when it comes to RV, without it people may speed, drink, text, fall asleep, be blown by the wind..., but with TT its only weight or short wheelbase.
Ok, enough philosophy for the evening.

"'Nuff said". You're happy and that's what counts at the end of the day. I wish you safe travels for you and yours.

[temccarthy1]

Why?
Because most people like easy solutions, but there is virtually no SUV on the market which has both capability and ratings to tow a decent size TT.
Tahoes and Expeditions have generous tow and hitch ratings but unfavorable rear overhang/ wheelbase ratio and softer suspensions kill their stabilty with TT and many people become disappointed with them
German midsize SUVs are excellent in terms of geometry, design and powertrain capability but most suffer from weak hitch receivers, either with insufficient rating or just incompatible with WD hitches, so aftermarket modification is necessary (and there is only one place on the continent where this can be done well).
The best towing SUVs on the market are probably Jeep Grand Cherokee and Dodge Durango, they feature Mercedes platform and hitch receiver capable to handle up to 720 lb with WD.
Passport 195 RB is quite lite and small, so the new Explorer should handle it without difficulty, the only question is how soon you will want something bigger and with more amenities.

Where did you get your facts!? Jeep Grand Cherokee and Dodge Durango do not even have truck frames! They are unibody vehicles and not suitable as TV's unless a PUP. I have a 2013 Expedition XLT with HD tow package and 5.4 L V8 pulling a 30 ft Bullet Ultralite TT and performs beautifully! I used to have a 1997 Expedition and pulled a 7000 lb boat/trailer 40,000 miles with no problem. The Expedition is same frame and power as an F150. I agree Explorer is to small but an Expedition or Excursion are up for the job as TV's for good size TT's.

[RGene7001]

Where did you get your facts!? Jeep Grand Cherokee and Dodge Durango do not even have truck frames! They are unibody vehicles and not suitable as TV's unless a PUP. I have a 2013 Expedition XLT with HD tow package and 5.4 L V8 pulling a 30 ft Bullet Ultralite TT and performs beautifully! I used to have a 1997 Expedition and pulled a 7000 lb boat/trailer 40,000 miles with no problem. The Expedition is same frame and power as an F150. I agree Explorer is to small but an Expedition or Excursion are up for the job as TV's for good size TT's.

Expedition wheelbase: 119-131
F150 wheelbase: 120-163
Expeditions are not bad, especially late models and EL, but some people I came across are happy with them, some are not.
Full frame in half ton class does not provide any advantages, the only problem with unibodies is not weakness, they are much more rigid, but ineffective weight distribution in most cases which demands hitch modification. Only JCG and Durango are clearly rated for 700 lb + with WD

[Yak]

I didn't see it mentioned, frontal area limitation is 40 sq ft with a class III hitch with WD. My little hybrid is 56 sq ft.

[linux3]

Not that it is worth anything let me add my experience to the SUV debate. We too have a 23RB that I had convinced my self that my diesel Grand Cherokee would be sufficirent as a tow vehicle. Towed home from the dealer with nothing loaded. Towed like a dream. Loaded it up the following weekend and headed out for the May 2-4. I had convinced myself I was safe and good to go. Made it to the camp site, had a great weekend. Jeep towed like a dream with power to spare. On the way home coming out of a forested area we took a cross wind that litterally moved the Jeep and the trailer, as one, across the centre line. I bought a truck the next day. I've read most of the posts here but I don't recall anyone touching on the short wheel base issues with SUV as compared to pick up trucks. My weights were all in accordance with the TV ratings but the short wheel base made it unsuitable as a tow vehicle.

Grand Cherokee is about a foot shorter than a Ford Explorer and lighter. A 23RB is longer and heavier than a 195RB. Apples and oranges.

[linux3]

You're driving a 2016 Explorer if I recall. I drive a 2017. I wouldn't pull the trailer you talk about for love or money with my Explorer. Why? It is not an adequate TV. Why do I know that? I've pulled all kinds of trailers with all kinds of vehicles. A midsize SUV like the Explorer is adequate for a small flat bed trailer....not an fair sized RV. I don't recall where you're from but I can tell you flat out that if you are pulling your RV down the road in TX driving 60 mph and a semi comes by you at 80-85 mph (normal speed limit is 75 - many semis run the speeds I mentioned all the time) your little SUV will be sucked into the side of the truck if you don't see it, OR, you will be spending minutes watching him approach, grabbing the wheel, then doing everything you can do not to be sucked in. Not the way it should be.
.
Oh bull!
On I80 through Ohio I've passed trucks and had them pass me. No problem.
I asked what I thought was an interesting question and I get pickup fanboys making comments with no real experience.

[linux3]

I didn't see it mentioned, frontal area limitation is 40 sq ft with a class III hitch with WD. My little hybrid is 56 sq ft.

Ah ha. My TT is 8' wide and 10' tall but it isn't 80 sq. ft. After all it's on wheels.
OK, 8 ft wide and 8 ft tall? 64 sq ft?

Nope, it is kinda streamlined.
The equation for wind resistance is (1/2)*(density of air)*(frontal area)*(drag coefficient)*(velocity)^2

The drag coefficient is dependent on the shape of the object. A wedge would have a smaller drag coefficient than a box.

I'm no fool an I didn't just jump into this.
Adjusted frontal area, backed out from wind resistance is 43 sq ft.

[CaptnJohn]

I simply see people using what they already own and/or can afford. Some have over compensated, some have no clue, some are aware, and others make up justification. Some talk of 'experience', I've been pulling over 42 years and know it helps but it will not take care of Murphy every time. I'm happy for those that understand comfort and those that have some cushion as well as those at or over their numbers. I'm sure there are a couple here that really could justify towing a 40' 5er with a Chevy Colorado and do a darn good job of it.

[sourdough]

Oh bull!
On I80 through Ohio I've passed trucks and had them pass me. No problem.
I asked what I thought was an interesting question and I get pickup fanboys making comments with no real experience.

Pickup fanboys??? Maybe we should say experienced towers that know BS from real life. No experience? I've been towing all kinds of things probably longer than you've been alive based on your posts.

You have an Explorer (THE BEAST) of which you seem so enamored of. I suspect it's the most powerful vehicle you've ever owned. It's a wuss for towing....sorry, just the facts. I own one (2017), and I reiterate, it is not built for towing a travel trailer unless it's small. I hate the way it handles by itself; can't imagine pulling a trailer with it unless I had a death wish. I suppose you love it because you have absolutely nothing in the world to compare it with....and it's a "beast"??

You've got what you've got. You think it's a BEAST. Well, live in your world but don't tell knowledgeable, experienced folks that you've got the best TV in the world and if they don't agree they are "pickup fanboys". Maybe you could just say we know a lot more than you.....from experience.

[chuckster57]

Okay, at this point I will ask nicely that we stop the name calling and mud throwing or this thread will be locked.

[linux3]

No experience? I've been towing all kinds of things probably longer than you've been alive based on your posts.

You have an Explorer (THE BEAST) of which you seem so enamored of. I suspect it's the most powerful vehicle you've ever owned. It's a wuss for towing....sorry, just the facts. I own one (2017), and I reiterate, it is not built for towing a travel trailer unless it's small. I hate the way it handles by itself; can't imagine pulling a trailer with it unless I had a death wish. I suppose you love it because you have absolutely nothing in the world to compare it with....and it's a "beast"??

You've got what you've got. You think it's a BEAST. Well, live in your world but don't tell knowledgeable, experienced folks that you've got the best TV in the world and if they don't agree they are "pickup fanboys". Maybe you could just say we know a lot more than you.....from experience.
OK, maybe a little harsh but...
I was born in the 40's. Grew up on a farm towing all that that implies.
Got indoor plumbing when I was 6. Hazah.

My 1977 Ford F-250 with a 460 V8 was, I think, the most powerful vehicle I've owned. Pulled a 28' 5th wheel real well.

If you are pulling a LARGE TT or a 5th wheel a pickup is the way to go, I agree but I'm tired of the work and like a smaller trailer.

Perhaps the question should have been 'Why are there so few SUV towable TT's' being pulled by SUVs?

[notanlines]

Linux, I believe I have at least half the answer. Compare a typical SUV to a typical 1/2 ton pickup these days. Both can have every imaginable option known to man....and, yes, woman too. Pickups seat five very comfortably, SUV's seat seven or eight with some comfort. All the electronics are the same, the ride is comparable, and the prices are about the same. The pickup is generally more versatile than an SUV. Plus you can line the pickup bed with visqueen and fill it with water. Instant pool for the kids or the kids at heart. Don't do that with Momma's SUV. :D

[sourdough]

OK, maybe a little harsh but...
I was born in the 40's. Grew up on a farm towing all that that implies.
Got indoor plumbing when I was 6. Hazah.

My 1977 Ford F-250 with a 460 V8 was, I think, the most powerful vehicle I've owned. Pulled a 28' 5th wheel real well.

If you are pulling a LARGE TT or a 5th wheel a pickup is the way to go, I agree but I'm tired of the work and like a smaller trailer.

Perhaps the question should have been 'Why are there so few SUV towable TT's' being pulled by SUVs?

Pretty much the way I came around too. In fact we had a 1977 Ford 460 V8 pulling a 35'?? Layton 5th wheel ourselves. It was a very stout motor. In fact, we went through 2 trannys and one rear end rebuild before the old 460 had to be put out to pasture. It was a case sort of like we talk about now - way too much trailer for the drivetrain. But, that was back in the day when you worked on the farm, had one truck and pulled anything everything with it. You just backed up to "whatever it was", dropped it on the hitch, watched to see that the front tires didn't go up in the air or the back ones didn't pop then revved the engine and slipped the clutch till she started rolling.....then you were good to go. Ignorance is bliss!!

As far as why there are so few SUV towable TT's, I think there are several reasons. SUVs are changing. An SUV now is what used to be a mini SUV (Think original Tahoes/Expeditions/Ramcharger etc). The downsizing alone makes a significant impact on the ability to tow. As notanlines mentioned, they all have to have hundreds of pounds of options (creature comforts) added to keep people happy, the drivetrains are made for soccer moms, not heavy duty towing. All of these things combine to make a vehicle that has a very small towing window, and, very few folks tow with a small SUV. From the manufacturer standpoint it makes very little sense to make small, marginally profitable units in any number to try to fill a tiny niche market. As was mentioned, the pickup is far more versatile and capable. They used to be cheaper but no longer. So, if a person wants to actually tow they tend to get something made for it instead of trying to adapt something marginal. Some folks don't do this. For me, if there is a task at hand you get what is meant to do the job. Towing a trailer; HD pickup equipped like it needs to be for the trailer at hand. Flying low across the country in comfort to get from point A to B as quickly, and as fun as possible; a nice sports coupe. Trekking into the mountains to see the back trails, lakes etc; a nice, fully capable 4x4 SUV (not a crossover, AWD etc.) w/2 speed xfer case, at least 9.5" of ground clearance and the luxuries you want.

A person can try to make one vehicle be all things but in the end it will do nothing well except the original intended purpose. I think it is very difficult for an RV manufacturer to try to build to hit those niches. Anyway, we already have tear drops, Casita's etc......

[CaptnJohn]

I had a SUV tow vehicle once ~~ a Suburban 2500 with a 454. Did at great job at 6 mpg. I also towed with a 1974 Plymouth Fury that did a great job. Both of those had a full frame and heavy drive line. The SUVs built today are more like a mini van of yesterday, built for creature comfort and not for work. Yes, they will do the job on small light trailers. Anything more and one is fooling only themselves. My wife had an Explorer that I'd not have towed any more with it than the Escape she has now. Actually, the EB Escape has more torque than the Explorer had. Beast it sure as the devil was not.

[jaydubya1966]

I learn an awful lot from this forum. One of the issues I was most concerned about was my TV. I bought our first TT about three months ago and I towed with a GMC Acadia, which properly equipped can tow 5200lbs. I own a Passport Elite 19RB which has a dry weight of 4300 (and change) so my margin was less than 1,000 lbs. I did get myself weighed and I was about 500lbs short of my total GCWR (10,700). While it towed fine in the flats of Florida, my math told me I was really close to my limits (95%) and my DW and I were NOT in the Acadia during weigh in. I wondered how we would do if we encountered hills.

Long story made shorter, after reading this thread and others I decided that if I wanted to stay in RVing, and maybe upgrade down the road, I would be better off with a more capable TV. Today we bought a 2017 GMC Sierra 1500 Crew Cab Short Bed with the 5.3L Eco Tec engine. It is equipped for towing and has a 3.42 axle ratio. I verified before driving away and I can tow up to 9,400 lbs as equipped. My Passport 19RB will be much more easily towed and now I have room for some growth should we decide to do so. The wheel base along with the higher capacity is what swayed me (no pun intended). I felt that this presented a safer option. I loved my Acadia but feel like I made the right move for me. Thanks to all who participate in this forum...such a huge help to newer folks like us.

[Charby]

I was towing my Premier19fbpr with my 2012 Grand Cherokee 3.6 V6 which was fine without head winds and hills. It was rated for 5000lbs, and trailer empty was 4300lbs. I now have a 2016 Grand Cherokee with 5.7 Hemi, 8 speed tranny and 7200lb towing capacity, it purrs along at the same economy on the computer as the old V6 5 speeed. Many say 20 foot is the maximum for an SUV to pull for stability. I never tow with water as parks have it. We find it a perfect size trailer for the 2 of us, and the Jeep does everything I want it to do year round. I can fit it in the garage where a truck won't.

[linux3]

I was towing my Premier19fbpr with my 2012 Grand Cherokee 3.6 V6 which was fine without head winds and hills. It was rated for 5000lbs, and trailer empty was 4300lbs. I know have 2016 Grand Cherokee with 5.7 Hemi, 8 speed tranny and 7200lb towing capacity, it purrs along at the same economy on the computer as the old V6 5 speeed. Many say 20 foot is the maximum for an SUV to pull for stability. I never tow with water as parks have it. We find it a perfect size trailer for the 2 of us, and the Jeep does everything I want it to do year round. I can fit it in the garage where a truck won't.
Well said.

[VoyagerI]

Ah…nothing worse than a newbie reopening a contentious thread…but here goes…

Something for all to consider…

Pulled a 6x12 enclosed motorcycle trailer with my ’04 Toyota Tacoma (V6) to the smoky mtns. Load was within rated capacities and the Taco pulled the load well enough. No visible or physical signs of vehicle distress.

Next trip was to the Rocky mtns. Before departing, decided to run a scan gauge II in my OBD II port to see what my real-time transmission temperatures were while under load. I was shocked to see the real tranny temps spiking routinely into unacceptable levels, all the while my dash gauges/lights read ‘ok”.

Moral of the story – it’s a system of systems. Verify ALL components are up to the task.

[Garyd1612]

I pull our Passport 195RB with a Ford Explorer Sport.
After testing every brand and type of truck I bought the SUV.
I very seldom see another SUV pulling anything but a pop-up.
What's up with that?
The Sport model has the Ecoboost 3.5 and very firm suspension and works great as our TV.
OK, the price is equal to or greater than a F150 but better I think as a daily driver.

Only down side is the 18.6 gal tank. I get 11 ~ 12 MPG so I have to stop for gas about every 2 hours. My wife thinks that's a good thing.

Are there others out there and I'm just not seeing them?
I had a @015 Jeep Trailhawk with tow package (rated for 4500 lbs) and when I decided to purchase a 2019 Bullet Crossfire 1800RB (4400 lbs wet) I traded the SUV for a 2018 Toyota Tacoma TRD 4x4 also with tow package ( rated 6500 lbs.) I just didn't want to pull the guts out of the Jeep. So far Toyota is a very nice daily driver. That's why I didn't want to go with a full-size truck.

[flybouy]

"As an anecdotal comparison, just because a Cessna 172 wing is "capable" of 4G's and 350 KIAS doesn't mean that you can install a jet engine and make it a "high speed aerobatic craft"..."

Not even close to those G's and that speed. :D

...and not even Bob Hoover (RIP) could do that in a 172.

But good Lord what he could do with a Shrike Commander 500S !

[flybouy]

Maybe I'm oversimplifying here but here goes. SUV's (Sport Utility Vehicles) do what the name implies. Good grocery getter, ok OCCASIONAL off roading and light towing, i.e. great for hauling the jet ski OCCASIONALLY. I'd venture to say they are built that way because the majority of purchasers use them that way. Trucks are built to haul and tow. The bigger the truck, the more they are built to haul and tow. Years ago Chevy offered 3/4 ton Suburbans with a diesel. Ford built the Excursion, 3/4 ton SUV with a v12 and diesel options, arguably the best SUV ever built for towing. EPA fuel mileage standards and lack of sales killed them. So we have what we have, you can't have your cake and eat it to. JMHO

[linux3]

Boy, I thought this closed out years ago.
In March 2017 I bought a Chevy Silverado based partly on the many comments here and partly past experience.
The 5.3l V8 in the Silverado actually puts out 10 HP less than the 3.5l Ecoboost in the Explorer but...
More torque, full frame, longer wheel base and NA HP is different than turbo, IMHO.

So, having tried both an SUV and a truck to pull a 4400 lb (actual weight when packed) TT the SUV was OK, at best, for short trips but not good for road trips.

[notanlines]

Trust Flybouy to mention the Excursion, sing its praises, and then bring up MPG! :eek: Our Excursion had exactly 300K when sold. No problems with the V-10 other than it blew one spark plug out of the manifold like was promised it would do. Yes, it would haul and pull most anything, including a 38' Fountain Lightning for almost 13 years. However it always pulled to the right when passing a gas station!

[JRTJH]

We had a diesel Excursion and loved it (when we weren't hating it).... Ours had a 7.3L diesel, got about 17 solo and about 11 towing. It was great for the front and second row passengers, but those "in the back" were almost in a different time zone.... I don't think there was an option (available at that time) which wasn't on that "land yacht" (or maybe better described as a passenger cruise ship). We'd still have it if it weren't for parking lot spaces shrinking over the years.

It weighed more than a 3/4 ton 4x4 crewcab pickup and was built on the same chassis. It's one "dinosaur" that wasn't killed by the ice age, but by sheer size and demand for smaller vehicles.

The V-10 got less mileage than the diesel, but at $.70/gallon, it was still "less painful to tow with the Excursion getting 6 MPG than paying $3.29/gallon and getting 9MPG on today's similar sized crew cab pickups with a smaller engine.

[Beaner]

I was towing my 2016 Passport 195RB with my 2016 Explorer Limited with 3.5 l
Engine but I was constantly looking for a gas station. So, my wife now drives the Explorer and I bought a new 2019 Ford F 150 Lariat with the large gas tank and the trailer towing pkg., of course. The Explorer didn’t have a problem towing, it was just the size of the gas tank and the fact that you can’t pull in to any gas station so you may have to go further than you expected.

[wiredgeorge]

Trust Flybouy to mention the Excursion, sing its praises, and then bring up MPG! :eek: Our Excursion had exactly 300K when sold. No problems with the V-10 other than it blew one spark plug out of the manifold like was promised it would do. Yes, it would haul and pull most anything, including a 38' Fountain Lightning for almost 13 years. However it always pulled to the right when passing a gas station!

Guess you never had the pleasure of owning a mighty 460 cid Ford gasser! ALL TIME BIGGEST GAS PIG!

[mwemaxxowner]

My first truck was a 460 gas hog. 3 speed c6 tranny. Coming up on 16 years ago I pulled it out of the weeds behind the house and got it running again. I still have it actually, needs a little TLC. It got a strong 6-8 mpg. 23225

That picture was taken with the finest potato of the day.

[chuckster57]

My first truck was a 460 gas hog. 3 speed c6 tranny. Coming up on 16 years ago I pulled it out of the weeds behind the house and got it running again. I still have it actually, needs a little TLC. It got a strong 6-8 mpg. 23225

That picture was taken with the finest potato of the day.



And I had an ‘86 F250 extended cab long bed with a 460 on steroids. C6 with a shift kit. Yanked the Jayco in my sig for a number of years-7 MPG hooked up.

[linux3]

I was towing my 2016 Passport 195RB with my 2016 Explorer Limited with 3.5 l
Engine but I was constantly looking for a gas station. So, my wife now drives the Explorer and I bought a new 2019 Ford F 150 Lariat with the large gas tank and the trailer towing pkg., of course. The Explorer didn’t have a problem towing, it was just the size of the gas tank and the fact that you can’t pull in to any gas station so you may have to go further than you expected.

So true. Don't understand why Ford put is such a small fuel tank.

[linux3]

Guess you never had the pleasure of owning a mighty 460 cid Ford gasser! ALL TIME BIGGEST GAS PIG!

11 MPG pulling the 5th wheel. 11 MPG pulling NOTHING. 2 tanks for a total of 49.5 gal.
But man would that sucker fly.

[chuckster57]

11 MPG pulling the 5th wheel. 11 MPG pulling NOTHING. 2 tanks for a total of 49.5 gal.

But man would that sucker fly.



I had twin 20’s. High stall converter with a shift kit and yeah it would “get the H up”!!!

Performer intake
Roller rockers
Comp cams 270 cam
Headman headers
Edlebrook accudrive gear drive timing
Cam set 7* advanced
MSD 6A ignition with blaster II coil.

It passed everything but the gas pump. It was a blast to drive without the anchor attached.

[mwemaxxowner]

And I had an ‘86 F250 extended cab long bed with a 460 on steroids. C6 with a shift kit. Yanked the Jayco in my sig for a number of years-7 MPG hooked up.It got about the same mileage towing or not. It was mostly stock. 230 monstrous horsepower. Lol

I towed a 27' Jayco J-crane 5th wheel with it. It did alright.

It sat unused for several years. It burns more oil now than it does gas.

[mwemaxxowner]

11 MPG pulling the 5th wheel. 11 MPG pulling NOTHING. 2 tanks for a total of 49.5 gal.

But man would that sucker fly.Best one ever got was 13 on a highway trio where I never did more than 65. Lol. And the majority of the trip I was doing 55.

[JRTJH]

We had a 1970 Lincoln Continental Mark iii with a 460. That "2 door coupe" weighed in more than today's half ton trucks and would cruise at 90 all day long, but I only remember passing one gas station the entire time I owned it (there were two stations right next to each other).... Otherwise, it pulled left or right at every station we passed.

[CaptnJohn]

Had a 460 in a Suburban. Loaded it up back in the day. Took the rear seating out, installed a mattress over my plywood. Used more at the drive in than for camping, actually only used at the drive in.

[mwemaxxowner]

Mine was my dad's before it was mine, running a custom concrete business. The thing was worked hard all of its life and spent a lot of time towing. Most likely always oVerloaded. We didn't know anything about looking up factory ratings.

You had a 'burb with a Ford motor in it? Or it had a 454? 454 was great also.

[CaptnJohn]

It was the 454. When gas was so cheap it was not an issue.

[Ken / Claudia]

We had a patrol boat with the GM 454 and used a f250 with a 460 in it.
Used a tank of gas at around 15 gals in the truck to get to and back from boat ramp (around 5 mpg) and about 60 gals of fuel for the boat, every day when I traveled most of the shift on the Columbia River. Lucky I never paid for that fuel.

[mwemaxxowner]

When I took over the old gal, gas had just begun creeping up and was around $1.80, so it had begun to hurt a little bit. However, I was only paying for gas and insurance, but I was only able to work weekends. I tried to hang onto DDing it, but gas started to reach enough to make a truck payment, which is when I bought the old 99 PSD. Also a great truck. 23280

[CaptnJohn]

I go back a little farther than you. I can recall gas wars when a gallon dropped from $0.249 to $0.179. In 1979 gas went over $1.00 a gallon for the 1st time. The GMC dealer had a new 3/4 ton 4x4 with dual gas tanks that sat on the lot until they almost gave it to me. There was no tax on heating oil, 20 cents a gallon was robbery.

[mwemaxxowner]

About the cheapest I remember is $0.90 per gallon. Shortly before I started driving it began leaping up and up and up and I was just up in arms about how expensive it had become at $1.80. Lol. I was telling myself there's no way it can stay that high. Now I'd love to see it there again, even though I get 4 times the MPG! [emoji23]

[jkohler70]

Is it just me, or does it seem that gas prices fluctuated less 30 years ago? I seem to recall that gas only fluctuated a few cents through the 90's. Today it seems to suddenly jump as much as $.30 a gallon then slowly fall.

[66joej]

Up here in Canada we pay by the litre. It goes up 6 cents a litre and we start bitching. Then it goes down 2 cents and we are dancing in the streets. Never thinking what about that other 4 cents.

[JRTJH]

We lived in Denver during the early 70's and my DW worked in the EXXON TBA warehouse (Tires, Batteries and Accessories). During the "Denver gas crisis" in July 1971, there were lines literally "around the block" at every gas station, the price doubled and there was a 10 gallon limit on every sale. At the same time there were "gas wars" in Cheyenne, WY and Raton, NM.

At the time, the gas supply pipeline ran from Kansas City to Denver, then north/south along the front range to WY and NM... Logistically, that surplus gas that created the gas wars had to flow through Denver to get to either location....

I'm not suggesting that there was any "manipulation of resources" at the time, but many have speculated that Denver was the 'test bed" for the "nationwide energy crisis that occurred in 1972"...

Stranger things have happened.... So, a 10 cent increase followed by a 2 cent "relief to stop the complaining" doesn't surprise me at all. Happens all the time and now they call it "summer grade adjustment or winter grade adjustment" or even: A refinery had problems and transportation from the refinery further down the line costs more...... OK, but when the closer refinery comes back online, what then ???? Uh huh, I see......

Oh, before that, the Conoco station on the corner of Wadsworth and First Ave was selling Conotane (regular grade) for $0.17 a gallon. I had a 100 gallon total fuel capacity in my Dodge P/U (main, center and saddle tanks) and from "empty to full" was always less than $16. When that station closed in 1972, that's where I had my RV repair shop/consignment sales lot. Ahhh, the memories.

[B-O-B'03]

I remember driving through Waco, TX, on my way to the gulf coast for spring break back in high school and there was a "gas war" going on... think I paid 16 or 17 cents a gallon back then.

Filled up the F150 on Saturday, at our local Kroger... $2.089 for regular... not bad.

-Brian

[the406life]

DW and I started off towing a 24' TT that weighed about 5,000lbs with our GMC Yukon XL. Supposedly that thing was rated to tow 7,500lbs with a WD hitch.

It did better than I expected with 5,000lbs on it, but no way in hell would I have towed 7,500 with it.

I have nothing against towing with SUV's, we even considered having a Custom built Duraburb built for us. But ended up preferring to use a pickup to pull our TT.


For us it's more convenient to use a pickup. A crew cab pickup with a long bed and topper can haul our family of 5, a crapload of firewood, generators, tables, chairs, bicycles, kayaks on the roof, and the list goes on. We could never load our SUV down with that much junk without being WAY over weight. We can also remove the topper, install our UTV rack and haul the side by side parked on top of the truck box and cab while still towing our TT.