Keystone customer service Nightmare

[Dooley]

Very long story
just the short version here ADVICE DON"T BUY KEYSTONE

Purchased in Feb2 2015 nice ALPINE 3510 re
Took possesion April 13/2015

First warrnty issue i day later Kitchen slide
didnt screw down glide strip

out of the unit 1 week

Next major may 15 ,2015
Crack in drivers side by bedroom slide
5 weeks out of unit , repaired in Burlington WA



March 2016 crack reappears Florida
Keystone won't let me take it to their manufacturing plant , I have to drive it all the way back to WA to have the dealership who performed the work fix it .

Cut short out trip ,drive all the way to WA ,
Keystone now requires the unit taken to their facility (awesome )
But guess what they don't have time and wont pick up the unit till July 25 , and their schedule will have the unit into their shop by August 15th.And probably wont get the unit back until the middle to end of September .

And thats really cool cause we need to be in Alaska by May 15th


Keystones response is basically it is what it is ,
No talk of compensation , or anything
But what the hell, its not their money , well i guess it is now

It must be nice to take 100k from people and then just asically screw up their life and their apparently is no recourse through Keystone .

[esmoglo]

Certainly sorry to see your having so many problems, I can relate my Keystone passport is nowhere near as expensive as your fifth wheel however I too am experiencing cracks in the fiberglass. You know all the time you hear “Amish quality craftsmanship” and in reality many RVs are put together at such a rapid pace very little if any quality control is actually done. My good friend purchased a brand-new Grand Design fifth wheel camped only one night and had massive water leaks supposedly Grand Design has a 3 warranty and is a "high quality unit" guess not. All I can say is I think we’re all lucky that the RV industry doesn’t get into building airplanes because if they did planes would be falling out of the sky at an alarming rate!

[carwheel_09]

I had a very bad experiences with Keystone's warranty practices. They did make some effort to fix the major problems but used a band aid approach. Fixed it half arse that held until warranty was up. Now I'm SOL and have to deal with the problems on my dime. This will be my first and last Keystone product. I've owned four RV's and the costumer service from Keystone was totally inadequate.

[Tbos]

I had a very bad experiences with Keystone's warranty practices. They did make some effort to fix the major problems but used a band aid approach. Fixed it half arse that held until warranty was up. Now I'm SOL and have to deal with the problems on my dime. This will be my first and last Keystone product. I've owned four RV's and the costumer service from Keystone was totally inadequate.



I'm sorry to hear about the issues with your RV. If you don't mind me asking, what did you own previously and what made you choose a Keystone product this time. Thanks.

[dcg9381]

FYI - sounds like they are fixing it, although not in a hurry. Be glad that they're fixing it and not pointing to the dealer...

There are several photos of that crack that occurs on the slide... Might search for those here and see what the repair has been.

I can understand why you are upset.

[Model A Driver]

Were the other three brands better? Is there a brand that will honor their warranty? This is a real inquiry for future reference.

[CaptnJohn]

Were the other three brands better? Is there a brand that will honor their warranty? This is a real inquiry for future reference.

Most recently I have owned Forest River, Heartland, and Keystone. I read all 3 boards. Forest River and Keystone build the most and about the same number. All have the same kind of complaints. Heartland fewer, but sell fewer units. Forest River have more of the major problems. FR offers a 2nd year warranty for $150 which is nice. My dealer sells all 3 builders and the service mgr states Keystone is faster approving warranty work and is easier to get approval from. FR and Heartland have a company rally annually with factory reps, techs, and vendors. FR asks for "issues" when signing into the "international rally" in Goshen IN. Many items are taken care of whether warranty or not. Some major problems are scheduled for repair at the factory at no cost.
My experience is FR does have more problems. Heartland has fewer and Keystone fewest. Hard to blame any builder or dealer for components built by others and if properly installed.
In December I bought a new Cougar 5er. Research indicated fewer complaints and these are the top selling mid 5ers for 15 years. Keystone plant 2 builds ONLY Cougar units. Plants of most builders will build model a for 2 - 3 weeks, the model b until orders are complete then move back to a or onto c.
Factory or dealer ~~ a 3 hour PDI found nothing to be done. The AC was running strong and the furnace turned on for 5 minutes. 1st night the furnace blew 2 fuses. Atwood sent a tech and problem solved. A light bulb blew, a cabinet latch required adjustment, and the table required adjustment so not to run the island when slides were retracted. That is all after about 35 nights and 2000 miles. I'll stick with Keystone and especially Cougar if at all possible.
Just my nickels worth and nickels don't go far today.

[sourdough]

^^^^x2

The worst problem I ever had was with a Jayco. All of these comments further confirm my belief that 1) it is hit or miss when buying any RV from any manufacturer; a complete PDI is the only thing that stands between you and disaster and 2) there has to be some sort of correlation between the Monday/Friday (or something) units where the production quality is thrown out the window. Don't know what it is but it is perplexing and aggravating. At this point I'm still a hands down Keystone customer.

[Festus2]

sourdough -
IMO there is no correlation between RV's or vehicles built on Monday and/or Friday and those built on Tuesday ---- Thursday. The thinking that the quality is somehow inferior and that you are more likely to get a "lemon" on units put together on Monday's and Fridays is a myth that has been perpetuated for years.

Some of the reasons behind this old wives' tale are (1) the workers are tired by Friday and can't wait to get home and rush through their job; (2) On Mondays, they are "recovering" from the weekend and don't perform as well; (3) absenteeism is highest on Monday and Friday resulting in shortage of staff and having to fill staff gaps with less qualified or inexperienced hands.

In addition remember that RV's and other vehicles are not totally assembled in just one day. Depending on the unit, it may take several days from start to finish so the likelihood of a portion of the work being done on a Monday or a Friday (or both) is quite high.

I've done some searching for a study that proves that quality suffers if the majority or all of the assembly and construction is done on either a Monday or Friday, but can't find anything out there. Anything that I have found seems to reinforce my opinion that it is simply a myth based on opinions rather than any hard evidence.

[JRTJH]

Wen I was at the factory 2 summers ago, the assembly line (actually it's more of a construction line) for Cougar fifth wheels started at one end of a big hanger, the trailer chassis came in the door "pin first" and upside down. The darco/coroplast, axles were installed and the chassis was turned over on dollies. Once "upright", the tanks, belly insulation and plumbing was installed along with all the electrical and ducting systems. Then the trailer started a "sideways journey" down the line. The actual assembly from start to finish was, at that time, 4 days. So, every Cougar fifth wheel built in 2014 was "on the line" on either a Monday or a Friday or, depending on holidays, quite possibly, both.

Like Festus2, I've always heard the "layman's lamentations" about "Monday/Friday quality issues" but I've never seen any actual studies that support the allegations. Thinking back on what I saw at the factory, if there was any truth to the concept, then every Cougar off the line would be affected, one way (on Monday) or the other (Friday).

[sourdough]

I used the "Monday/Friday" term as a reference to try to explain the inexplicable. I know it is not a documented phenomenon but, as you said, folks understand what it means. I did say Monday/Friday, "or something", because I don't actually know what the cause is. Having been in the position of managing many, many employees, I can tell you that Fridays and Mondays were a problem for my company but primarily from an absentee perspective.

Whether the Monday/Friday syndrome, poor staffing, quotas that are too high resulting in a rushed product, etc. there has to be some explanation why one individual has no problems with his new trailer (maybe a loose screw) and another, with a similar trailer, has catastrophic problems. Maybe it's as simple as a few untrained:confused:, or unmotivated:yawn:, employees working on the same line/shift that produce a subpar product or the fact that there will always be some imperfections at times when men produce a product and the RV industry has not evolved their QC to the point that they can catch them - if they even try?? I know I don't have the answer and can only speculate but it certainly appears to be an issue - whatever it is.

[gearhead]

I said this a few days on here. I place 90% of blame on management. I've been on both sides of it. On my tools for 15 years and then supervision and inspection the last 20+. I have audited vendor shops and their procedures. If the craftsman doesn't have guidance at hand, it's not his fault. We developed an industry leading repair report with very detailed specifications and guidance as to the specs, the order of work, and signed by who did it and when. Until Thor tightens up their procedures I doubt anything changes. Well, until a Senator buys a RV.
Of course there was our alternate explanation: "Why did Bubba go out there and close that valve?" Because he either didn't know better, or didn't care. And that can explain a lot.

[Festus2]

gearhead -
I don't know if the comparison between your work environment and end products and those of Thor or others in the RV industry is a really fair one. I would guess that your work and that of others as refinery machinery specialists would be far more "precise" than those folks assembling various components of an RV.

I don't know what your line of work involves but I suspect that it requires a high degree of skill, precision, and attention to detail. Measurements would be in mm not cm. All parts and components have to fit together exactly with very little, if any, room for error. The expectations are much higher - and so they should be.

In the RV industry, you don't have this expectation. If you are an 1/8th of an inch out - not to worry. The thing will still work. A little loose or sloppy but no big deal. Consequently, the standards and expectations are lower. Everyone knows that - management and workers - and work accordingly. They're not building a space capsule and it is not rocket science. It's simply a house on wheels - and their mindset reflects that.

Yes, I guess quality control could be improved. Owners and management could insist on a better product. But my question would be --"Why would they?" Sales are up. Folks aren't complaining - too much - except for some guys over on the Keystone forum. Customer satisfaction (according to their own survey) seems high so let's just keep on doing what we've always done.

Alright everybody - back to work!

[sourdough]

Festus2 - you're exactly right. If everyone is knocking down your door to buy your product, defective or not, why would you increase your costs to make a few folks happy? Great point.

I was at CW the other day and COULD NOT find a parking spot. The place was packed in the middle of the week and folks were all over the place looking at new RVs. I visited with the GM and service manager and told them I was amazed; they said it was like that all the time. I told them if I wasn't so conservative and such a worrier, I would just buy a dealership. They said that would be a great idea....right now. In the past it hasn't been so good, in the future, maybe not either. They also have lots of headaches. I've been retired for 10 years and don't thrive on high pressure and crisis every day like I used to...I'm pretty much SO laid back (pretty much :))

Anyway, I suspect we can bark and carp all we want but as long as "we", the folks, keep clamoring for their products I suspect little, if anything, will change. Cleaning up the oversights/mistakes will continue to rest with the buyer. Looks like that's the nature of the beast.

[ctbruce]

Just a point of contention. I have always followed the philosophy if of you don't ask, you won't know. The point is that if enough people ask the same question(s) then eventually you have to ask yourself why? If you ask yourself why then you are obligated to find an answer. Lots of customers ask why RV's are like they are but it seems the manufacturers are not asking why are all these people asking about the same question? Until then business as usual!

I love my Impact 312. Everything works like it should so I have no complaints. Happy Trails!

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[JRTJH]

Just a point of contention. I have always followed the philosophy if of you don't ask, you won't know. The point is that if enough people ask the same question(s) then eventually you have to ask yourself why? If you ask yourself why then you are obligated to find an answer. Lots of customers ask why RV's are like they are but it seems the manufacturers are not asking why are all these people asking about the same question? Until then business as usual!

I love my Impact 312. Everything works like it should so I have no complaints. Happy Trails!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Asking questions on this forum, even asking questions on the phone with Keystone Customer Service most likely never gets relayed to the "head cheese shed" at THOR. At their level, they are pretty much isolated from the "reality" of everyday manufacturing processes. As long as the "middle managers" keep the factories making money at the anticipated rate (meeting corporate goals) and as long as people are "standing in line" to buy every one that comes off the line, there's no "crisis" at the top..... So, likely people asking the same question, over and over, never gets answered because the people who have the answers never hear the question.......

Just my speculation, who knows if it's on track or not.............

[carwheel_09]

I follow the Heartland forum and there is a totally different level of interaction between the owners and the company. Both Keystone and Heartland are under the Thor corporate umbrella. At Heartland you can order parts directly, speak to the factory and have a positive outcome with your concern. They participate in the Owners Group and will act as a liaison on the owners behalf. Heartland is known to have customers bring the rigs back to the factory service center for repairs. They even repair frame flex issues out of warranty at no cost to the consumer. So what the difference? Keystone sells more than anybody else with the status quo of their current business model. So middle management and upper management have no reason to be proactive and improve.

[ctbruce]

Asking questions on this forum, even asking questions on the phone with Keystone Customer Service most likely never gets relayed to the "head cheese shed" at THOR. At their level, they are pretty much isolated from the "reality" of everyday manufacturing processes. As long as the "middle managers" keep the factories making money at the anticipated rate (meeting corporate goals) and as long as people are "standing in line" to buy every one that comes off the line, there's no "crisis" at the top..... So, likely people asking the same question, over and over, never gets answered because the people who have the answers never hear the question.......

Just my speculation, who knows if it's on track or not.............
But you have to at least believe they have an inkling of all the bad press and complaints that are posted on all of the forums. If they are that aloof and have no clue, then we might all be doomed. Just my - $0.02.

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[JRTJH]

But you have to at least believe they have an inkling of all the bad press and complaints that are posted on all of the forums. If they are that aloof and have no clue, then we might all be doomed. Just my - $0.02.

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An "inkling of the bad press"? Probably, but as carwheel_09 stated, "Keystone sells more than anybody else with the status quo of their current business model. So middle management and upper management have no reason to be proactive and improve."

I don't think anyone "inside the carpeted offices" has any clue about any specific customer's problems nor the frustration that is faced by owners who have warranty claims denied, coaches that sit for weeks awaiting repairs, or the host of other "irritants" faced when a new RV has to go back for repairs. I'd suspect that "level of management" is constantly briefed on the 99% of happy customers and the profit "pie chart" with virtually no mention of the "1%" that fall through the cracks.

Having attended stockholder meetings in other businesses, about the only mention of "problems" is in the very brief comment on "warranty costs". Usually those problems are "glossed over" with a comment such as, "Warranty claims remain under the established level with a reduction of returns that remains among the "lowest in the industry"..... With that statement, the reflection continues to be, "There is no problem, we're making money"......

[billb800si]

Can't wait for the Japanese to get into the RV market. They ate the American Car companies lunch and FORCED them to build quality products.

Happy trails,

[JRTJH]

Can't wait for the Japanese to get into the RV market. They ate the American Car companies lunch and FORCED them to build quality products.

Happy trails,

Yup, but at what price? I well remember buying a "loaded 1972 Dodge 4x4 3/4 ton truck for $3800. That same truck today is nearly $70,000. Sure, inflation "eats" some of that increase, but.....

According to CPI calculators, that $3800 used to buy that truck in 1972 would require $22,275 in today's dollars. So, there's a $50K increase "somewhere"... Granted, today's vehicles are better because of competition spurred by the foreign car companies (both European and Asian), but that "increased quality" comes with a significant price.....

I'm not sure the RV industry could "weather the price war" spurred by "improved quality" at the levels that would make the "average RV" cost more than most of us could afford to pay.....

[denverpilot]

Yup, but at what price? I well remember buying a "loaded 1972 Dodge 4x4 3/4 ton truck for $3800. That same truck today is nearly $70,000. Sure, inflation "eats" some of that increase, but.....



According to CPI calculators, that $3800 used to buy that truck in 1972 would require $22,275 in today's dollars. So, there's a $50K increase "somewhere"... Granted, today's vehicles are better because of competition spurred by the foreign car companies (both European and Asian), but that "increased quality" comes with a significant price.....



I'm not sure the RV industry could "weather the price war" spurred by "improved quality" at the levels that would make the "average RV" cost more than most of us could afford to pay.....


Part of that difference is in 1972, most folks considered a vehicle over the hill at 100,000 miles. And they were often right.

Nowadays that's just getting broken in, for many. Especially new heavy duty trucks.

They have to make up that money difference on top of inflation, higher parts prices, and what not. They know they won't sell as many overall units over the same period of time.

It doesn't make up ALL of the numbers difference, but it does factor in.

This also started not long after the whole Japanese import Big Bang of the 1970s.

We just discussed it being common to see Dodge Cummins Gen 1 and 2 trucks still happily towing at 300,000 miles and the newest ones are a decade old at this point, Gen 1's way older.

My 2001 Gen 2 is 15, but it's lived a sheltered life at under 150,000 miles still since new.

Lots of people still want something new/different at 100,000 miles or so, but the vehicle gets sold to someone else who changes all the fluids and does some relatively inexpensive services, and runs it another 100,000. That's pretty common nowadays. Then maybe someone else buys it at auction for a song and goes another 100,000.

Pretty amazing really. I remember my dad's 70's Dodge pickup -- it would never have made it to the mid 80s or early 1990s without self destructing.

Nowadays the critical vehicle buyer who is truly going to get maximum value from their purchase, is looking for 200,000 miles with nearly nothing but fluid, tire, and brake changes and maybe a timing belt along the line somewhere in there.

Most vehicles die in accidents rather than blowing engines or transmissions on the side of the road like back then.

[gearhead]

We are trying to get a factory tour in our schedule the first week of June. I'll get the 15 minute observation and based on that tell them everything they are doing wrong. ahem.
Actually I just want to catch somebody putting the wrong label on the gray and black tank drains. lol

[chuckster57]

We are trying to get a factory tour in our schedule the first week of June. I'll get the 15 minute observation and based on that tell them everything they are doing wrong. ahem.

Actually I just want to catch somebody putting the wrong label on the gray and black tank drains. lol


I spent 3 days in the Newmar plant back in December '15, it was interesting to say the least.

[JRTJH]

We are trying to get a factory tour in our schedule the first week of June. I'll get the 15 minute observation and based on that tell them everything they are doing wrong. ahem.
Actually I just want to catch somebody putting the wrong label on the gray and black tank drains. lol

You probably won't get your wish.... Tours start at 1PM or 2PM. The plant works from 5AM to 1PM. So your tour will most likely be on an empty assembly line with no workers present. You might catch the janitor sweeping "old stickers" under the wheels, but likely you won't see any actual "work in progress".....

[mark1228]

Can't wait for the Japanese to get into the RV market. They ate the American Car companies lunch and FORCED them to build quality products.

Happy trails,

I always love this line. Why do you suppose the Japanese haven't done it yet? I mean really think about it. The reason is simple, Japanese company's just like any business need a return on their investment. The RV business is so small that there is simply not enough volume for them to be able to be profitable. There is no affordable, efficient way to ship RV's overseas on a large scale and there really is not enough volume for anyone to invest millions into plants and processes without knowing they will make money. With only around 400,000 RV' s sold in fantastic year for the entire industry, they can't make the numbers work. Due to volume alone there is no comparison between the auto makers and RV makers, let alone the fact that RV company's are building a house on wheels and how YOU as the owner drive makes a big difference in the problems you could have. One of my employees had a new house built last year and has been fighting warranty problems on that for a year now and it is on a foundation and does not move and cost way more than any RV.

[JRTJH]

I don't think there is a "stick built" house that's ever been produced that will withstand daily "hurricanes, earthquakes and 3+ G forces". I probably should "qualify" that by adding, "...any "stick built" house that is designed to be lived in by "average people" on an "average income"... I'm sure that "somewhere" some university (or government agency) has constructed a "model for the future" home that's "earthquake and tornado proof"....

But the point is: Given the environment our trailers are subjected to, I'm honestly amazed they even "hold together" over the roads we travel at the speeds we travel with the maintenance we do and the use we subject them to.

Could they be "built better"??? Sure they could, but would it be at the price we can afford (and are willing to pay for a "toy") ??? Probably not. If we were "willing to pay that much" then we'd all be in "airstream level" trailers that start at $90K for a 22' model, not in "keystone level" trailers that start at $15K for a "similar size" house on wheels............... and honestly, there's not 6 times the quality in an airstream when compared to a Springdale (one of Keystone's entry level line)

[gearhead]

You probably won't get your wish.... Tours start at 1PM or 2PM. The plant works from 5AM to 1PM. So your tour will most likely be on an empty assembly line with no workers present. You might catch the janitor sweeping "old stickers" under the wheels, but likely you won't see any actual "work in progress".....

Well no wonder there are assembly issues. Ain't none of 'em awake.
Why in the world do they work that schedule?

[JRTJH]

Well no wonder there are assembly issues. Ain't none of 'em awake.
Why in the world do they work that schedule?

Many of the workers are Amish and they work "early mornings" at the factory so they have the afternoon/evening to tend to the farm. You'll see a parking lot filled with "horse poop" at the plant. If you get there early in the morning, it'll be filled with black buggies and buckboards.

[gearhead]

Many of the workers are Amish and they work "early mornings" at the factory so they have the afternoon/evening to tend to the farm. You'll see a parking lot filled with "horse poop" at the plant. If you get there early in the morning, it'll be filled with black buggies and buckboards.
That makes sense. And it makes sense now why the tours are at 2pm.
May be re-thinking this.

[JRTJH]

If you stay in Elkhart, there is a really nice campground around the corner from the "RV Historical Museum" as well as a really interesting "wholesale RV warehouse" just off the interstate. Also, the "shipshewana Flea Market" which is "reportedly" the world's largest flea market" is in the same local vicinity. It's open every Tues and Wednesday from May through October. http://www.tradingplaceamerica.com/ So it's not a "Keystone is the only game in town" kind of area....

If you've never seen the Keystone factory, it's an eye opener and you'll understand much more about how your RV is built, what is in it (and where it's located) as well as formulate some strategy for repair plans once things start to go wrong.

Just seeing the chassis without the walls, flooring and carpet gives you a totally different perspective on what is "in your RV". I'd highly encourage you to take a couple of days if you're in that area and check out the museum as well as schedule a tour of the factory facility (they schedule tours for most of their brands, so a "Springdale trailer plant" tour probably wouldn't give you nearly as much information as a "Montana fifth wheel plant" tour or even a Cougar or Laredo fifth wheel plant tour..... Be as selective in which tour (or tours) if you're there multiple days. It's definitely worth your time.

[sourdough]

I don't think there is a "stick built" house that's ever been produced that will withstand daily "hurricanes, earthquakes and 3+ G forces". I probably should "qualify" that by adding, "...any "stick built" house that is designed to be lived in by "average people" on an "average income"... I'm sure that "somewhere" some university (or government agency) has constructed a "model for the future" home that's "earthquake and tornado proof"....

But the point is: Given the environment our trailers are subjected to, I'm honestly amazed they even "hold together" over the roads we travel at the speeds we travel with the maintenance we do and the use we subject them to.

Could they be "built better"??? Sure they could, but would it be at the price we can afford (and are willing to pay for a "toy") ??? Probably not. If we were "willing to pay that much" then we'd all be in "airstream level" trailers that start at $90K for a 22' model, not in "keystone level" trailers that start at $15K for a "similar size" house on wheels............... and honestly, there's not 6 times the quality in an airstream when compared to a Springdale (one of Keystone's entry level line)

Not to mention, to build to the standards above the RV buyer would then have to have a deuce and a half to pull it.

[gearhead]

If you stay in Elkhart, there is a really nice campground around the corner from the "RV Historical Museum" as well as a really interesting "wholesale RV warehouse" just off the interstate. Also, the "shipshewana Flea Market" which is "reportedly" the world's largest flea market" is in the same local vicinity. It's open every Tues and Wednesday from May through October. http://www.tradingplaceamerica.com/ So it's not a "Keystone is the only game in town" kind of area....

If you've never seen the Keystone factory, it's an eye opener and you'll understand much more about how your RV is built, what is in it (and where it's located) as well as formulate some strategy for repair plans once things start to go wrong.

Just seeing the chassis without the walls, flooring and carpet gives you a totally different perspective on what is "in your RV". I'd highly encourage you to take a couple of days if you're in that area and check out the museum as well as schedule a tour of the factory facility (they schedule tours for most of their brands, so a "Springdale trailer plant" tour probably wouldn't give you nearly as much information as a "Montana fifth wheel plant" tour or even a Cougar or Laredo fifth wheel plant tour..... Be as selective in which tour (or tours) if you're there multiple days. It's definitely worth your time.

We will be in Indianapolis, so Elkhart is right up the road. The Montana HC tour is Wednesday. I will pull out of Indy on Monday and stay at the KOA south of Ft. Wayne and catch a USAC race in Montpelier Tuesday night. Then to Elkhart Wednesday, staying at Elkhart Campground. That was the original plan, so I think I'll stick with it.
edit...oops...I need to be in Goshen, not Elkhart! Maybe Elkhart County Fairgrounds. NO! they have trains. Ahh heck. Elkhart campground it is.

[JRTJH]

Goshen is 20 miles from Elkhart, so having lived in Houston, I'm sure you'd consider that not much of a trip at all LOL

[chuckster57]

I saw tons of bicycles. Don't have to feed/water them.

[ctbruce]

I saw tons of bicycles. Don't have to feed/water them.
...or do any scooping!! Unless there's a close call at the plant entrance on the way to work...

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