Are the premium models really better?

[Customer]

Hello, we are shopping and have looked at the Fuzion 345. We are also considering the Grand Design Momentum but my questions refer strictly to the Fuzion.

Keystone calls the Fuzion and Raptor their premium TH models. Maybe someone can explain what that means.

Are the premium models build on separate lines? Separate factories? I doubt there could be substantial differences if they roll off the same lines in the same factories.

They mention screwed rather than stapled construction, is it true?

What about wall and roof construction and insulation?

In summary, I am willing to pay for quality but I want to be sure I am getting quality and not just glitz. I have found the factory website to be very lacking in information regarding construction and quality.

This RV will be used for long term part time and maybe future full time living.

Thanks,
Tim

[Zappa]

I bought a Fuzion on the same premise that they were the premium quality RV over the other brands. When I got into the guts of the trailer I was disgusted with the way they built it. A couple for instances are; the wall sockets. The hole was cut for the electrical outlet with a around hole saw, one over the top of the other rather than a rectangular hole. Now the socket does not fit tight to the wall without bending inward. All the interior cuts were done with a router and great big holes for all the pass throughs for pluming and such. The drawer supports were only held together with one screw per level on one corner, the drawers were not secure and fell to the left side. The ramp door is just plain junk.

They look great from the birds eye but when it is all said and done, there is no building code on an RV so there is really no standard to adhere to. The only thing they know is how many can we build today.

My advice to you is to get onto the guts of one and decide for your self. A quick way to see if they did a good job or not is to pull one of the outlet covers off and have a look there. That will give you some indication of the quality put into building that coach.

Good luck

[Mike484]

What I have found, is with quality, comes cost. A $30,000 RV is the same, no matter the manufacturer or model. But, even at that, just because it costs more, you may still not be getting higher quality, maybe the higher cost is nothing more than just adding fancy options. If you are looking for higher quality, you must also be willing to pay much more.

[dcg9381]

I think I believe the same thing.
Dealers sell trim level as "quality". It's not. It's just more options and better finish out.

[Pull Toy]

You really need to do your homework when comparing units, and sometimes it really does seem like "apples and oranges". If you're not sure, bring an experienced RV friend with you to pick apart features, and stare and compare.

Keystone lists Montana and Alpine as Premium 5'ers. In most cases, they're probably built on the same line by the same workers, just like Suburbans and Escalades, but have higher end appliances and utilities. As far as I know, Montana and Alpine are the only units that have a stock Heat Pump / AC unit combo's for the rear unit. Also check for Electric / Gas 10 gallon "fast recovery" hot water combo, Stainless Steel appliances, Corean countertops, dove tailed drawers, with quality slide type drawer supports, and upgraded hardware.

When all is said and done, only you can decide what works for you, but don't be afraid to ask questions, both of your dealer, and of us.

Good Luck!

[notanlines]

Customer, let's compare this situation to a Chevy pickup just for an example. You do realize that a plain Silverado 1500 at 33,000 is made in a different plant than a Chevy Denali at 60,000 and will only last half as long. Better engines, better transmissions, better paint.
What? They're not? Well, go figure. Huh, for twice the money I'd a thought they'd have been built at another location with a lot better ingredients. Trailers like that maybe?

[sourdough]

This question is about as long as it is wide.

I think the one of the posters above had it right. If you want to pay 30k for A, you will get about the same thing if you buy it from B, C or D. Materials, techniques etc. are all the same. Pay grades are about the same and complaints about every manufacturer are there. Frames are going to be about the same given the same type unit although suspensions may differ; ie; "premium".

Premium, in a brand line, will allude to possible added insulation, covered underbelly's, 2 ACs vs 1; larger, fancier appliances, countertops, doors etc. Cabinet construction differs; trim definitely differs; and on and on.

The only way to know that you are getting what you perceive as "premium" is to determine what that consists of in your mind and then insure that the potential purchase has it.

[theeyres]

You can buy a Chevy truck or a GMC truck. One is standard, the other is premium. Is one better than the other? You decide. They may be the same frame, engine, etc. but the GMC has leather and more comfortable seats, deluxe gages, fancy do-dads. Which is better? Both are fine. It just depends on what you want.

[CaptnJohn]

Having previously owned RVs from many builders for over 40 years I researched Heartland, Forest River, and Keystone. I spent time in 5ers of many brands of those 3 builders. MOST 'premium' 5ers were much larger than 2 people needed ~ we do not need to sleep 8 - 12 or need 40'+ that requires a 1 ton dually. There are only so many component manufacturers so you will get either a Thetford or Dometic toilet, black appliances or stainless but only a few manufacturers of each. Digging inside I think I found entry level units quality lower than the standard level which justified the extra costs. There was some additional quality in some premium models over the standard but most ~ not all~ was fluff. I liked the Keystone Alpine and Heartland Landmark but not the length, weight, or cost. We found a standard ~~ Cougar ~~ to meet all our expectations. We had planned on a Rockwood by Forest River until we saw the Cougar. Both are standard and the Cougar priced a little higher but had so much more (including auto-level). Comparing it to the premium models the additional cost did not justify the additional slight benefits in our minds.

[bsmith0404]

The main differences you will see on premium units are items such as cherry or oak cabinets vs a press board with vinyl wood look covering. Maybe some items such as leather vs cloth furniture, cedar lined closets, upgraded fixtures, better insulation or heated underbelly/tanks, larger hot water heater, upgraded pin box, 4 step entry...etc. Probably the biggest difference/cost is a gel coat exterior finish. It is a nicer looking finish and, IMO, easier to keep clean and new looking. I've owned different levels of RVs and will say that I love the premium/luxury lines.

[Customer]

Maybe I wasn't clear;

The biggest problem plaguing the RV industry and RV buyers is for the companies to produce a quality product at a price point the customer is willing to pay. Unfortunately the RV industry is known for building poor quality product. In quality control the RV industry is where the American auto industry was in the 1950's until the imports came and ate their lunch.

I have owned many RVs in the past and currently own two. I have plenty of experience in dealing with and rectifying poor quality RV assembly.

Keystone makes trailers from the entry level cheapo weekend campers up to what they call premium models.

If the entry level and the premium models roll off the same assembly line, produced by the same workers, we cannot expect the construction quality of one to be any better than the other. A worker that puts together a $10,000 RV on Tuesday will likely put the same effort and quality into a $100,000 RV on Wednesday.

So the original question, do the premium models roll off the same line in the same factory as the cheaper models? Keystone claims that the premium model cabinetry is screwed construction and no staples are used. Does that indicate a separate factory or line?

There are manufacturers that do not build entry level models but only build premium models. It seems we can assume that those factories would be better able to control the construction quality.

I'm talking about trailers that have an MSRP in excess of $100,000, I hope they aren't built by the same workers that build the $10,000 trailers.

[1jeep]

When we bought our Carbon we also looked at the Raptor, even found they each had models that shared the same floor plans.
Only differences I could find were that some of the standard options on the raptor were upgrades on the carbon. For us we optioned the carbon with the 2nd ac unit, gen and 3 batteries, I felt no need for 6 hydraulic jacks and a side by side fridge as we only camp weekends and such.
If I were full timing I might have considered going up for the more features, other things such as a bigger brand name tv are things I can change anytime. Honestly its been a year and I have yet to watch the tv. My carbon came with woodish floors and solid surface countertops, decent cabinets and stainless fridge face.

Did I feel the raptor or higher end were better in workmanship or quality, NO, rolled out of the same factory built by the same company with the same standards.

My suggestion is buy the one with the features you want/need, whether it is the premium model or not.

[Face Down]

When we bought our Carbon we also looked at the Raptor, even found they each had models that shared the same floor plans.


I will expand on this a bit as we did the same thing comparing. A Carbon 357 and a Raptor 375TS are pretty much the exact same floor plan....from my observations here are the differences:

Construction exactly the same....and my guess built on the same line by the same people. I feel the construction was really good on both units.

Raptor:
weighs more (2K pounds)
costs more ($15-20K)
has much nicer appliances, fixtures, stereos, TV's, interior lights
has a better outside finish
has many more standard features (Hyd. Leveling, 2nd Awning, Built-in Vacuum Cleaner, second AC, 2nd and 3rd TV)
has 4 step vs. 3 step entry.
has less outside storage (to house bigger water heater and vacuum system)
has slam latches and shocks on outside doors
has double fuel station
has frame-less windows
comes with a King Bed (and different bedroom slide layout)
comes with a "Toy Lock"
comes with fireplace
has less counter space
has less inside cabinets
has washer and dryer prep.

I am sure there are more differences but what is listed above makes it a premium unit over a Carbon. Is it worth the extra money...that is up to the individual, in our case it was not and we are very happy with our purchase. If they would have been the same price...ya, we would have went with the Raptor.

[Mike484]

Maybe I wasn't clear;

I'm talking about trailers that have an MSRP in excess of $100,000, I hope they aren't built by the same workers that build the $10,000 trailers.

With that budget, you shouldn't have a problem finding a higher quality rig than a $10,000 unit. I think most people were talking more on the lines of comaparativly priced units that claim the title of "Premium" for just a few more bucks.

When we bought ours, our main objective was to purchase the biggest trailer we could that would allow us to use our current 1/2 ton truck. No "Premium" model was available that met our needs. We will probably upgrade later after we upgrade the truck.

I still feel as though the best trailer is the one that best fits your personal needs and preferances.

[michael_h]

I feel one difference in premium models is the front cap. When I looked at the different models I noticed the hump roof line does not fit as well to the front of the none fiberglass cap models as it does on the fitted cap models. Maybe just a small improvement to some, but I like the idea that parts have more precise fits and less caulk. Also the sides of the cap lap over the wall and hopefully will detur leakage

[sourdough]

Maybe I wasn't clear;

The biggest problem plaguing the RV industry and RV buyers is for the companies to produce a quality product at a price point the customer is willing to pay. Unfortunately the RV industry is known for building poor quality product. In quality control the RV industry is where the American auto industry was in the 1950's until the imports came and ate their lunch.

I have owned many RVs in the past and currently own two. I have plenty of experience in dealing with and rectifying poor quality RV assembly.

Keystone makes trailers from the entry level cheapo weekend campers up to what they call premium models.

If the entry level and the premium models roll off the same assembly line, produced by the same workers, we cannot expect the construction quality of one to be any better than the other. A worker that puts together a $10,000 RV on Tuesday will likely put the same effort and quality into a $100,000 RV on Wednesday.

So the original question, do the premium models roll off the same line in the same factory as the cheaper models? Keystone claims that the premium model cabinetry is screwed construction and no staples are used. Does that indicate a separate factory or line?

There are manufacturers that do not build entry level models but only build premium models. It seems we can assume that those factories would be better able to control the construction quality.

I'm talking about trailers that have an MSRP in excess of $100,000, I hope they aren't built by the same workers that build the $10,000 trailers.

I guess, if the main concern was that a cheaper unit rolled off the same assembly line that my "premium" unit did, I would just buy from a manufacturer that made nothing less than 100k trailers. Not logical, but to each his own. Also, tagging something with a 100k price doesn't necessarily mean you got 100k worth of anything.

Keystone, and the rest of the trailer manufacturers, make economy, standard and premium lines. I am sure there are specs that detail what materials are used and the installation standards used. The techs will use those materials and specs. The premium unit may be on a different "line" but I doubt it. I do know that all you have to do is walk through an entry level unit and a premium unit and you will know it.

Kind of like comparing my rebuilds of an old 258ci inline 6 for my Jeep and an old 454ci for my Chevelle. The 258 came out pretty, functional and did its job. The 454 came out shining, chrome everywhere and bad to the bone - when I hammered it my son said I turned Chinese because my eyeballs pulled back. No comparison in the products; one good and did what it was supposed to, the other was pretty, an eye catcher and top of the line, costing thousands more than the other. Was the 454 tainted because it came off the same "line"? Same worker, same shop, same engine stand, same cherry picker, tools etc.? Of course not. A different product was being built; different specs; different materials......just sayin.

[1jeep]

I will expand on this a bit as we did the same thing comparing. A Carbon 357 and a Raptor 375TS are pretty much the exact same floor plan....from my observations here are the differences:

Construction exactly the same....and my guess built on the same line by the same people. I feel the construction was really good on both units.

Raptor:
weighs more (2K pounds)
costs more ($15-20K)
has much nicer appliances, fixtures, stereos, TV's, interior lights
has a better outside finish
has many more standard features (Hyd. Leveling, 2nd Awning, Built-in Vacuum Cleaner, second AC, 2nd and 3rd TV)
has 4 step vs. 3 step entry.
has less outside storage (to house bigger water heater and vacuum system)
has slam latches and shocks on outside doors
has double fuel station
has frame-less windows
comes with a King Bed (and different bedroom slide layout)
comes with a "Toy Lock"
comes with fireplace
has less counter space
has less inside cabinets
has washer and dryer prep.

I am sure there are more differences but what is listed above makes it a premium unit over a Carbon. Is it worth the extra money...that is up to the individual, in our case it was not and we are very happy with our purchase. If they would have been the same price...ya, we would have went with the Raptor.

My carbon came with a washer dryer prep, which I will never use.
Double fuel station would be nice if I used this trailer where I would need the generator, but I really don't.
Fireplace...I have one at home and prefer the campfire.
I really didn't feel the appliances were that much nicer, just not worth the extra $$ to me
my carbon did come with a second ac and generator, but the one thing I do wish I had requested was a second awning over the rear door.
For us the carbon was the perfect fit, we moved up from an older travel trailer, so this already felt fancy and im the guy still sitting outside at the campfire with a cooler of beer.

[dcg9381]

I guess, if the main concern was that a cheaper unit rolled off the same assembly line that my "premium" unit did, I would just buy from a manufacturer that made nothing less than 100k trailers. Not logical, but to each his own. Also, tagging something with a 100k price doesn't necessarily mean you got 100k worth of anything.

Keystone, and the rest of the trailer manufacturers, make economy, standard and premium lines. I am sure there are specs that detail what materials are used and the installation standards used. The techs will use those materials and specs. The premium unit may be on a different "line" but I doubt it. I do know that all you have to do is walk through an entry level unit and a premium unit and you will know it.


I think this is true. If you want one with significant differences in actual build quality, look to DRV or one of those brands. He's talking about actual prices being $100k, not the sticker.

Even these models have "new" issues. As do RVs costing 1M.

What does seem to differ within the normal brands is post sale service, warranty term, and real availability of non-dealer service. Those may be worth looking into.


Like several people above, I own a Carbon. I don't notice any difference in actual build quality from a Raptor. I don't like auto-levelers - mainly because I've dealt with them on other brands. I prefer to do my own home theater / stereo work. I can say that I would have preferred non-cable slides, but I read about a lot of issues with the schwintek slides.. A bigger fridge would have been a good option too... But I feel that it's an excellent value for how we use it and what we paid for it.

[hdrolling]

We looked at them all, some just feel plain. If you plan to stay in it long term or full time I'd look until you fall in love with a model and get that whether it's premium or not. Our's is just what we wanted and as soon as I looked through it I knew it was the right camper for us, it feels like a home away from home.

We do get picked on when we say were "Going camping", but there's nothing wrong with have all the creature comforts if it makes your vacation more comfortable. IMHO

[Face Down]

My carbon came with a washer dryer prep, which I will never use.
Double fuel station would be nice if I used this trailer where I would need the generator, but I really don't.
Fireplace...I have one at home and prefer the campfire.
I really didn't feel the appliances were that much nicer, just not worth the extra $$ to me
my carbon did come with a second ac and generator, but the one thing I do wish I had requested was a second awning over the rear door.
For us the carbon was the perfect fit, we moved up from an older travel trailer, so this already felt fancy and im the guy still sitting outside at the campfire with a cooler of beer.

Yea...I would have never used the washer dryer either, we are weekend warriors and if we stay somewhere a week they have a laundromat...not worth the space, money or weight!

I am fine with the single tank...my Club Car takes a charge, not a refill.

I don't even use my fireplace at home...

Got the 2nd AC and genny too!

I plan on adding the 2nd awning before my week trip to Myrtle beach in August just to keep some heat off the garage area. It got awful hot back there last summer on that trip.

"For us the carbon was the perfect fit, we moved up from an older travel trailer, so this already felt fancy and im the guy still sitting outside at the campfire with a cooler of beer." Me too!! :)

[1jeep]

Even in New England we were glad to have the second AC, on a trailer over 32' I think it is very much needed.

when I pointed out to my wife that we could have a washer/dryer her response was ...well I wont post that here...lol

AS far as needing a premium trailer If we were full timing or doing long trips it might be nice.

Please post when you do the second awning, I really want to do one, but hesitate to take that first step.

[Face Down]

Please post when you do the second awning, I really want to do one, but hesitate to take that first step.

I got the part list needed and the dimensions from a Raptor 375TS for the mounting locations. I just need the cash and the time and to finish a bunch of other projects I don't have done. I decided in Feb to sell my perfectly fine golf cart and buy a newer stock version and completely build a new one.

[Steve S]

I personally think that it doesn't matter which one that you buy as it all comes down to how you you take care of it. It's amazing at how many units are on the lots that are only a few yrs old that haven't been looked after and it really shows!
There's so many people that treat their trailers like a toy but yet they forget to maintain them and keep them clean. I've always found that with an RV the biggest problem that people have is staying on top of things and taking care of their investment.

[theeyres]

The subject has pretty well been beat to death but I guess I'll still add one more needless comment: is a BMW better than a Chevy? It's all in what you want and can afford. Better? No. Just fancier and more deluxe. Many of us will be very happy with our Chevys...but if you want a BMW, go for it.

[Customer]

(tx) Thank you all for your comments, they have been helpful.

Yes, BMW does make a better product than Chevrolet. As a person who currently owns both and has owned them in the past, I feel qualified to make that assessment. However, they both have their purposes. I couldn't tow a 5er with a BMW.

Now I need to decide if Keystone makes a better product. :cool:

[BlueknightWI]

I couldn't agree more. However, there are also some units that I swear were thrown together in the last half hour of a work week. And, the staff had already started drinking beforehand. Those units should be brought back to the factory and fixed completely. But yes, we keep our campers clean and maintained as if we are going cross country each time we head out.

I personally think that it doesn't matter which one that you buy as it all comes down to how you you take care of it. It's amazing at how many units are on the lots that are only a few yrs old that haven't been looked after and it really shows!
There's so many people that treat their trailers like a toy but yet they forget to maintain them and keep them clean. I've always found that with an RV the biggest problem that people have is staying on top of things and taking care of their investment.

[Mike484]

I personally think that it doesn't matter which one that you buy as it all comes down to how you you take care of it. It's amazing at how many units are on the lots that are only a few yrs old that haven't been looked after and it really shows!
There's so many people that treat their trailers like a toy but yet they forget to maintain them and keep them clean. I've always found that with an RV the biggest problem that people have is staying on top of things and taking care of their investment.

Yep, see this all the time.

Someone buys a 70,000 mile set of tires, never does an alignment, doesn't check air pressure, and never rotates, gets 30,000 miles and says the tires were junk. Someone else buys the same tires, keeps up with the alignment, air pressures, and regularly rotates them, gets 80,000 miles and swears they are the best tires they ever bought.

BUT, there is always the possibility of manufacturer defects in everything you buy, how many times have you purchased something and straight out of the box it didn't work or was missing parts? Money doesn't always buy you good quality, every automotive dealership has cars in their shop be repaired, no matter how expensive the car is.

[Rick52]

I did my homework for about a 1 or 2 years, finally decided on a fusion 371. I know it's not a super expensive unit, but falls into the premium priced units msrp's at around a 100k, got mine for 63k, don't know why they just don't say 63k, because I'd feel ripped off it I had paid anymore..... At a glance they look great, crawl around underneath and look around at the details, which you don't notice until your home, and you'll find that it's really pretty shoddy workmanship. It seems there is no set assembly practice in place, sort of like a track house, depends on who's pounding the nails any given day, whose running the wiring etc, not much quality control. Brought mine home from northern Calif to southern Calif, about a 350 mile drive. As I'm backing into my driveway the brakes are making a scraping sound. A few days later, when I had a chance, I started pulling tires and drums, parts are falling out everywhere, magnets, adjusters, springs, etc. on the right side. Left side intact but the rear seals never installed in the drum tight so they stayed on the axle as I pull the drum off, grease all over the brake assembly on both left wheels, I realize this is dexters fault, but none the less. Also where the wires feed come down to the electric brakes from the underbelly, they were left so long they were scraping on the tires and had worn thru the insulation down to the copper by the time I got home, this is keystones fault. I have to say everything inside worked, hot water, air,heat, frig, mw, water pump, slides incommand system, no leaks, and finish on everything is fine. On the whole I think they could spend just a little more time and make an outstanding unit, more quality control is needed. Many of the little things that bug me can be fixed an someone else may not even care or notice. I would caution anyone that is picking up a unit that's at a dealership far from Indiana, to check the brakes asap. You don't know how the driver that delivered it treated it during the trip. I have a feeling mine was driven over the rockies to Turlock at break neck speeds and the dealership had no idea the brakes were trashed.......

[gtsum2]

I think they r all about the same. I have a 345 chrome msrp for 110, got it for 62. Better than most I think and no real issues after 7000 miles. I do like the grand design momentums though...but they r much bigger and heavier and too much for my 3500 srw


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dcg9381]

BUT, there is always the possibility of manufacturer defects in everything you buy, how many times have you purchased something and straight out of the box it didn't work or was missing parts? Money doesn't always buy you good quality, every automotive dealership has cars in their shop be repaired, no matter how expensive the car is.


There is a difference.
When you buy a TV, 99% it'll work out of the box. Mostly not assembled by humans.

When you buy a new car, 97% that it won't see the shop due to an actual failure in the first 12 months. Again, mostly not assembled by humans.

When you buy an RV between $10k and $2M, chances are that it will have issues that will bring it back within the first 60 days. Assembled by humans being paid, well, probably being paid a lot less than an auto union worker.

Any automobile dealer you can get fixed nationwide. That's not true of of the Keystone RV brand... I'm not talking about what the paper says, I'm talking about the reality of getting it fixed.


Buy a Forest River, or even the Grand Design, I'd expect issues. Thare are, however, differences in warranty and service.

[TomHaycraft]

This thread has been a good read. Speaks volumes to the quandary I'm in now. I've got the urge to upgrade, but am not ready to spend money on something that I'll have to look over my shoulder and wonder, "what next?".

On Saturday, I looked at a Grand Design Reflection 303RLS. Length and general floor plan are what we want. Corporate philosophy and warranty, got my attention. But I feel they cut a corner by not allowing 3 steps up to the bedroom in the design. Just 2 large steps, for me to rebuild them into 3, would set the first step several inches into the opening of the door. With a wife who is trying to buy time before knee replacements, it is just about a show stopper.

I looked at a comparable Jayco. Standing water in the storage compartment "tray" just inside the door. I went home. It all made my little "entry level" Springdale seem okay, just a bit hot in July, August and part of September here in Texas!

[JRTJH]

Tom,

Our first fifth wheel was a Springdale 242. Not sure if you remember, but we went camping at our favorite out of the way spot a few years ago and within an hour of arriving at the campground, a "freak afternoon thunderstorm" blew in and dropped a tree on the roof of our trailer. Well, that ruined our trip, no sense trying to camp in wet weather with a roof that looked like it got hit by a porcupine, so we headed home.

We used that situation to "move up a bit" both in size and in quality. After looking at almost everything that's on the market, we finally settled on a Cougar XLite. With the exception of the air conditioner and the remote control "brain box", it's been a troublefree trailer.

While everyone has their "wishes" and "impressions" and so much more that comes into play, if you haven't given the Cougar line and the two "light weight" adaptions, the Cougar XLite (east coast) and Cougar Half Ton (west coast) a look, you might be encouraged with what you see. The two "big differences" I see between the Cougar and it's "lightweights" is the headroom in the upper deck is much less with the lightweights and the floor is a "foam sandwich" on the lightweights while it's a "solid subfloor" on the Cougar.

To me, "quality" isn't the addition of extra features or bigger, prettier components, it's the way whatever is used is "put together" both in craftsmanship and in thoughtful purpose. Those features are very hard to find today, even in the "best" (most expensive) brands.

As always, I'm not affiliated with Keystone, any of their dealers and don't have any stock in the company. I'm just a satisfied customer who thinks they make a good product.

[gearhead]

x2 on the Cougar XLite. I just got tired of bumping my head getting in and out of bed. Otherwise our 28SGS was a fine 5th.
If our Montana self destructs I think I would look at a Northwoods. No dealers nearby so that would have to be resolved.

[CaptnJohn]

This thread has been a good read. Speaks volumes to the quandary I'm in now. I've got the urge to upgrade, but am not ready to spend money on something that I'll have to look over my shoulder and wonder, "what next?".

On Saturday, I looked at a Grand Design Reflection 303RLS. Length and general floor plan are what we want. Corporate philosophy and warranty, got my attention. But I feel they cut a corner by not allowing 3 steps up to the bedroom in the design. Just 2 large steps, for me to rebuild them into 3, would set the first step several inches into the opening of the door. With a wife who is trying to buy time before knee replacements, it is just about a show stopper.

I looked at a comparable Jayco. Standing water in the storage compartment "tray" just inside the door. I went home. It all made my little "entry level" Springdale seem okay, just a bit hot in July, August and part of September here in Texas!

I'm not certain the GD303 RLS is the exact floor plan as the 2016 Cougar 303RLS but the Cougar does have 3 steps to the bedroom. Bought ours in Dec and headed to FL for the maiden voyage. We are extremely pleased with ours.

[C130]

I used to own a 2011 Fuzion 322 Touring Edition and we really liked it plus we never had one single issue with it. I got the urge to get something bigger after going on vacation last summer and we just so happened to be staying where a rally was going on by some Grand Designs owners. My wife and I got to see basically all of their models and liked their toy haulers a lot.

I came home from vacation and immediately sold my Fuzion and my wife and I looked at every toy hauler made I think. My plan was to buy what we liked the best and not any particular brand. We kept coming back to the Grand Designs Momentum and ended up buying a new 2015 385TH. We wanted a rear half bath, auto leveling, fireplace, king bed, large cargo space, and a few other features. We love the 385TH but personally I think they are all the same as far as build quality. You can get a great one or you can be unlucky and get one that has lots of issues. I keep mine stored inside a fully enclosed storage unit and I really think that helps prevent a lot of issues. I did a very thorough PDI and stayed the night in the trailer with the intention of leaving the dealer with zero issues and it's worked out great so far. We looked at the slightly cheaper Momentum's (M Class) and thought the overall build quality was about the same but it just lacked some of the features we wanted and some small upgrades that might not matter to some people. I'm not a fan of Lippert and unfortunately a lot of manufacturers use Lippert so they all have a lot of the same issues, including Grand Designs. Good luck in your decision.

[socalhd]

I am learning new is not always better. My last rig was a 2006 Sierra 37SP. by Forest River. Aluminum sided/ no graphics and no real Frills. I bought it new in 2006 and did not have any issues from the day I took delivery until 2009 when we loaded up the bikes and went to Sturgis. Prior to Sturgis we took a 2 week trip to Kansas with no issues. The sky fell in Sturgis and we were wounded from the hail damage. I lost an axle on that same trip. All was repaired by insurance but it never seemed the same. But structurally and appliance wise we never had an issue. We sold it because of the age of the unit and likelihood of failures.
After a year we shopped for new and went thru every unit out there finally deciding on the Fusion FZ342. We love the 342 and have owned for a year,but we've had more warranty issues with it than we ever did the Sierra. I feel the Sierra, Interior wise was built with more care, and now with just over a year, we have the dreaded Dometic 310 toilet leak. Warranty will get it taken care of but I never had these issues with the Sierra. There are many pros and cons I could list. The Fuzion is a definite upgrade from the Sierra, it is prettier and has more frills. It also tows noticeably better than the Sierra. But in some ways I miss the Sierra. My opinion, shop and find the floorplan you like best, then decide if you want more frills. Trust when I say whatever unit you get, you want the Auto Leveling system

[1jeep]

Like SOCALHD im slowly learning its a gamble when you buy new no matter what brand. We sold our 2006 outback travel trailer last year for a 2015 carbon 327. While we like the trailer and it does have what we need, it feels like it has a peel on the outside that is slowly coming off. Our old trailer had zero issues in all the years we owned it. This one so far here is the list, Lost front bedroom window on first trip(it was never opened by us). Furnace had to have Board replaced, fridge never seems to get real cold, freezer does but im still keeping drinks in a cooler. second Ac unit came unplugged up in the ceiling.
While these items were covered under warranty it has been a real hassle bringing it back to the dealer each time.

After a year in the trailer I can say we knew we bought a mid level 5th wheel toy hauler, we still like the trailer but if we bought the model up it would have had the auto level and second awning over the rear entry door.

[Desert185]

In comparing this thread to others about tires, wet bolts, wheel bearings/seals and brakes, I'm thinking the biggest difference in premium vs standard is mostly bling. So, purchasing a mid-level brand may be the best bang for the buck (if that concern is important). Whatever one buys, there are still robust enhancing accessories that need to be accomplished that might be more practical in the long run than the added weight and expense of features that add more to form than function.

I'm certainly guilty of accessorizing, but at least I accessorize with what works for me and mine. Thankfully, the wife and pup concur while being part of the process. Also thankfully, there is a wide variety of options one can choose to suit one's needs and desires regardless of opinions to the contrary. Ain't capitalism and freedom great? :thumbsup:

[CaptnJohn]

In comparing this thread to others about tires, wet bolts, wheel bearings/seals and brakes, I'm thinking the biggest difference in premium vs standard is mostly bling. So, purchasing a mid-level brand may be the best bang for the buck (if that concern is important). Whatever one buys, there are still robust enhancing accessories that need to be accomplished that might be more practical in the long run than the added weight and expense of features that add more to form than function.

I'm certainly guilty of accessorizing, but at least I accessorize with what works for me and mine. Thankfully, the wife and pup concur while being part of the process. Also thankfully, there is a wide variety of options one can choose to suit one's needs and desires regardless of opinions to the contrary. Ain't capitalism and freedom great? :thumbsup:

I agree with much of what you said. Our 2016Cougar 303RLS has had no problems since purchased last Dec to speak of. Not much "bling" could be added. The main difference I see in all keeps me from considering any "lite" models.

[dcg9381]

I will say that some of the premium brands get actual non-cable slides (weigh more). For me, the Accu-slide cable slides have been problematic, where as all of my other experience with hydraulic/electric slides has been pretty good.

[RLM5150]

I will say that some of the premium brands get actual non-cable slides (weigh more). For me, the Accu-slide cable slides have been problematic, where as all of my other experience with hydraulic/electric slides has been pretty good.

What problems have you seen with the cable slides? I haven't been reading about slide issues. We just purchased an Outback 298RE and enjoying it so far. We have been out just 3 times so far, but no issues found yet. I'm wondering what I need to keep an eye on.

[slow]

What problems have you seen with the cable slides? I haven't been reading about slide issues. We just purchased an Outback 298RE and enjoying it so far. We have been out just 3 times so far, but no issues found yet. I'm wondering what I need to keep an eye on.



IMO, it is important to monitor cable tension on a cable slide system or it will do odd things that can lead to damage. I have had problems with the rubber pads covering the cable entry holes on the slide frame. They do my adhere well or survive the compression from the brackets very well on long trips.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dcg9381]

What problems have you seen with the cable slides? I haven't been reading about slide issues. We just purchased an Outback 298RE and enjoying it so far. We have been out just 3 times so far, but no issues found yet. I'm wondering what I need to keep an eye on.

I'll PM you, but roughly:
The cables need to be correctly adjusted so they don't ride on the aluminum trim. You can't see where they come through the trim on the outside. You can see it on the inside.

[bitten]

Looking at 2 Montana Legacy models to trade up from 28Rls cougar TT. Huge difference in materials. DW says we need more room for guest travelers.