RV Generators

[Im Bamma]

Hello everyone,

My husband and I own a 2010 keystone bullet 26 rbs and we are looking to purchase a generator for our cross county trip. Any one have any suggestions. Thanks Jo Ann

[x96mnn]

Honda and Yamaha continually lead the pack based on consumer votes in realizability and performance.

Other names that have been known to work well are champion and kipor. Number of other generic brands fall into this category.

Most people would recommend generator with an invertor built in compared to not built in. Invertor generators are more expensive but have cleaner power, those more technical can talk about the insides but long and short many electronics today including some of your camper electronics can be sensitive to power fluctuation. Non inverted generators have been said to blow these types of electronics up and causes issues with converters. Other people have never used one and have no issues.

Size is depending on what you want to run. A 2000 watt will run most small electronics and charge the batteries but not run your AC. If you'd want to run everything a 3000 watt plus is recommended.

[Festus2]

There have been numerous discussions about "which is the best generator" and other generator-associated topics on the forum. If you use our search feature and type in "generator" you will find enough posts/threads to keep you busy reading for some time.

Many of these posts discuss the pros and cons of various generators and offer suggestions as to recommended types.

[Mike484]

This is a great resource to read through, a very extensive thread on the subject of generators.

http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=24427

[bill-e]

If you plan to run your AC you will need at least 3000w and depending on the generator brand, maybe more. An EZ Start Capacitor installed in the AC unit will help with that.

I often camp alone for my shooting sport and I have a bad back so I went with two smaller generators which when needed can be hooked in parallel to run my AC. The smaller Yamahas and Hondas are under 40 lbs each while the larger ones are over 125lbs....that made my choice an easy one.

[mosquitoman]

If you manually put your fridge on gas and you don't have anything else running on electric a 2000 watt generator will run smaller AC units. According to the math my Honda eu2000 will run the AC unit on my Passport 2200, i have tried it and it works. I checked it with an amp meter and it did not overload the generator. I also checked with and electrician friend and he agreed with my math. I realize there is a spike at startup but only for a split second. I my be missing something but for me I will continue to use my 2000 watt generator.

[bill-e]

Different brands of generators handle loads and overloads differently, whith Honda handling them better than Yamaha.

Different brands of AC's/age of AC/ambient temoeratures cause different startup conditions.

Especially with an older AC it is difficult to really know how the generator will perform until you try it.

I had a 2400w Yamaha which ran my 13500 AC fine. New Camper and a 15k AC and the generator would not handle it. I Installed a $10 Hard Start Cap and it ran the AC fine

I've since moved to a pair of 2kw Yamahas and I'm happy though during overload I sometimes have issues that I'm pretty sure I wouldnt have had I gone with Hondas'.

[Desert185]

We usually go to a park with power, but occasionally we dry camp and plan to do so this April at a really nice location at 6,000-7,000'. The gen loses enough power at that altitude requiring a bit of help by turning the water heater and fridge to gas depending on the combined electrical draw. I think this hard start capacitor might be the ticket if we need the AC (which I doubt we will until later in the summer).

BTW, I see that Costco has the Yamaha engine, Smarter Tools 2000W gens in stock again. My two with parallel cable continue to work well. Just did an oil change yesterday.

[spicercars]

A 2000 Honda will probably run a small ac unit but if you continue to use it you will burn out your ac unit. If you plug a voltmeter into an outlet when the ac is running you will see it doesn't put out enough voltage to safety run the air. Starting and running the ac on low voltage will burn the unit up. A 3000 generator will run a 13.5 ac unit but will not run the bigger 15 ac unit. In my opinion 2 Honda eu2000 generators run parallel are the way to go. Honda's are a little more expensive but we'll worth it. You get what you pay for.

[Mike484]

A 2000 Honda will probably run a small ac unit but if you continue to use it you will burn out your ac unit. If you plug a voltmeter into an outlet when the ac is running you will see it doesn't put out enough voltage to safety run the air. Starting and running the ac on low voltage will burn the unit up. A 3000 generator will run a 13.5 ac unit but will not run the bigger 15 ac unit. In my opinion 2 Honda eu2000 generators run parallel are the way to go. Honda's are a little more expensive but we'll worth it. You get what you pay for.

And why would a 3,000 watt not run a 15k A/C? Several are doing it with success.

[dcg9381]

Generally, you're right about 3000 watts - but it can be hard to isolate "just" the AC.

One other thing to look out for - be careful buying a generator that has a 240v plug and no 120v @ 30A output. Often, if you just use "one side" of the 240V plug, those are circuit breaker limited and won't get you anywhere near rated output of the generator...

[spicercars]

I have a Honda eu3000 that I bought new and it will not run the air on the camper we have now or would not run it on our old camper and they are both15k units.

[nellie1289]

I have a Honda eu3000 that I bought new and it will not run the air on the camper we have now or would not run it on our old camper and they are both15k units.

that is kind of surprising to me .....

I have a champion 2800/3100 and it runs a 13500 btu no problem

[Festus2]

that is kind of surprising to me .....

I have a champion 2800/3100 and it runs a 13500 btu no problem

Nellie -
I believe spicercars was referring to a 15K unit not a 13500 BTU unit.

[JRTJH]

I have a Honda eu3000 that I bought new and it will not run the air on the camper we have now or would not run it on our old camper and they are both15k units.

There are two "Honda 3000" generator models. The EU3000i Handi is rated at 2600 watts (21.7 amps) and the EU3000iS is rated at 2800 watts (23.3 amps).

Depending on the "draw" from the converter, refrigerator and other items in the trailer, it's very possible that neither would have enough power to "sustain" the RV "and" the Air Conditioner.

Dometic recommends a "minimum of 3500 watts "continuous" power to operate one of their air conditioners (I believe that includes the other trailer power requirements as well) and 5000 watts to operate two of their air conditioners.

We've had a fairly extensive thread discussion about powering a single air conditioner on a "standard 110 volt outlet" while parked in the yard. If you consider that a "standard 20 amp outlet" has essentially the same power output as the "Honda 3000" generator, it's fairly easy to envision that it won't do a "good job" of powering an RV and operating the air conditioner, especially on a hot day.

When looking at the specs on the Dometic 13.5 and 15K BTU A/C's, the 13.5 requires about 14.9 amps to operate while the 15K uses about 15.3 amps. It does take a bit more to "start" either model, but when in operation, there's not very much difference in electrical requirements.

If you've got a Honda 3000 that produces 21.7 or 23.3 amps and you're using 5 amps to run your converter, 1 amp to run the refrigerator, you've only got 15.7 amps to run the A/C. It may start it OK the first time, but you'll find that on a hot day, restarting the A/C may cause the generator to overload.

There are some people who "swear" they have no problems running their trailer AND air conditioner on a single Honda 2000 watt generator. I'm not going to say it "can't happen" (they say it does) but I'd definitely wonder just how long their single generator would last before it "burned itself up" trying to power that much requirement.

There's a reason Dometic recommends 3500 watts minimum sustained power for a single RV air conditioner.

[nellie1289]

Nellie -
I believe spicercars was referring to a 15K unit not a 13500 BTU unit.

Yes but the champion 2800/3100 is rated to run a 15000 btu AC right out of the manual and if you look at Costco.com champion advertises it as such. That's why I'm surprised the cats meow 3000 Honda won't ??

[JRTJH]

Yes but the champion 2800/3100 is rated to run a 15000 btu AC right out of the manual and if you look at Costco.com champion advertises it as such. That's why I'm surprised the cats meow 3000 Honda won't ??

The Champion is rated at 2800 watts "continuous output". The 15K A/C requires 15.3 amps (1836 watts) "continuous" to operate. It requires more than that to "restart the compressor" during operation. The Champion (and the Honda) will handle that load without issue.

The "rub" comes from plugging in the trailer to the generator. Immediately upon doing that, the converter "saps" about 750 watts of power before you even turn on the A/C. If anything else is running, refrigerator on AC, water heater, TV, lights, etc, you can see how easy it would be to get up to the Honda's 2600 watt rating... It's "only 200 watts to go" with the Champion.

So, yes, the generator manual says it will run a 15K A/C, and it will. It's all the "other stuff that's turned on" that causes the issue....

[B-O-B'03]

The Champion is rated at 2800 watts "continuous output". The 15K A/C requires 15.3 amps (1836 watts) "continuous" to operate. It requires more than that to "restart the compressor" during operation. The Champion (and the Honda) will handle that load without issue.

The "rub" comes from plugging in the trailer to the generator. Immediately upon doing that, the converter "saps" about 750 watts of power before you even turn on the A/C. If anything else is running, refrigerator on AC, water heater, TV, lights, etc, you can see how easy it would be to get up to the Honda's 2600 watt rating... It's "only 200 watts to go" with the Champion.

So, yes, the generator manual says it will run a 15K A/C, and it will. It's all the "other stuff that's turned on" that causes the issue....

I have the Champion and it will run my trailer... fridge in the outdoor kitchen, inside fridge on auto, converter and the 15K BTU AC unit.

The first time I used it camping, I did not even think about any other items, except for the water heater, which I left on gas... the inside fridge was on auto, the outside fridge was plugged in and the converter is always on.

I cranked up the Champion, let it stabilize, flipped the main breaker on and after the Progressive EMS clicked I set the thermostat to AC. The AC fan started immediately and after a bit the compressor kicked in... the Champion grabbed a gear and everything was fine... I monitored power consumption and voltage on the Progressive EMS remote display and everything was within spec.

We were dry camping, outside of Big Bend NP and it was pretty warm (hence the demand for AC).

I believe the EMS would have shut things down if the voltage was too low?

As always... YMMV

-Brian

[bill-e]

Depending on the particular AC unit and the condition of its starting curcuit one might even experience issues where once there wern't any.

I had a brand new 15K unit which would not run on either my 2400w Yamaha or my pair of 2000w since the Yamahas can have issues maintaining an instantaneous overload condition.

I installed this $12 part and my issues went away. As a matter of fact when I removed the AC cover, the wiring diagram even included it as optional.

Hard Start Cap (http://www.amazon.com/SPP6-Capacitor-Combination-Operating-Voltage/dp/B000LDPI26?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage)

[bill-e]

I believe the EMS would have shut things down if the voltage was too low?

As always... YMMV

-BrianYes, the EMS would and im my case did. As stated above it was resolved with the Hard Start Cap.

[Desert185]

Yes, the EMS would and im my case did. As stated above it was resolved with the Hard Start Cap.

That's my next mod.

[the sodfather]

A lot of great info here. Has anyone tried the Honda 2000 connected to the Honda 2000 Conpanion on a 15K A/C?

[bill-e]

A lot of great info here. Has anyone tried the Honda 2000 connected to the Honda 2000 Companion on a 15K A/C?Not I, but I've seen many a post stating that would work. Honda has the best overload specs of all the generators.

[gearhead]

A lot of great info here. Has anyone tried the Honda 2000 connected to the Honda 2000 Conpanion on a 15K A/C?

Yep, the day before yesterday. Two brand new Honda's with their parallel kit. I had just ran them at varying loads for 8-9 hours. I changed the oil to Pennzoil Synthetic 10w-30, hooked up the parallel kit, threw the 5th main breaker open, fired 'em up, threw the main and ran them 2-3 hours with the 15000 BTU A/C on.

[JRTJH]

Honda builds two models of the EU2000i generator, the EU2000i and the EU2000i companion. They both use the same 98.5cc 4 cycle motor and the same generator head. Output is rated at 3000max and 1600 continuous for both models.

It's not the same situation with the EU3000iS and the EU3000i handi. The handi has a 163cc motor and is rated at 2600 watts continuous. The EU3000iS has a 196cc motor and is rated at 2800 watts continuous.

Using a parallel cable to connect two Honda 2000 watt generators would provide 4000 watts surge and 3200 watts continuous. That is very close to the recommended generator wattage suggested by Dometic and "should" provide more than adequate power to operate a single 15K A/C (about 15.3 Amps/1836 watts) and miscellaneous equipment in the trailer. There will be a "surge of power demand required to start the A/C, probably an added 5 amps. How much "starting amperage" is required depends largely on the temperature, compressor head pressure and "bleed down time" within the compressor plumbing though the condenser/evaporator. Every A/C acts differently depending on internal configuration and ambient temperature. That's why some need an "easy start capacitor" and others just keep plugging along without one.

Something to consider is how a generator is rated. It's much the same as a gasoline truck engine is rated. Take for instance, a Ford 5.0l engine in a 2016 F150. It's rated at 385 HP @ 5750 rpm. Very few of us would "wring out" a truck engine to 5750 RPM for any significant length of time without a great deal of "pucker factor" that it will come unglued under the hood.

Generators are rated much the same way. The Honda 2000 is rated at 2000 "surge" and 1600 "continuous". That means it can provide a "momentary" output of up to 2000 watts and a "continuous output of 1600 watts". Just as the Ford can provide a momentary output of 385 HP and a "continuous output significantly lower for a sustained time. All of us (I think) would hesitate to operate our truck engine at a "sustained 4500 RPM (significantly lower than the maximum of 5750, and we'd much prefer to operate it below 3500 RPM for "hours on end" while towing.

Generators are much the same. Just because it's "rated" to produce 1600 watts "continuous" doesn't mean that it's "good for the machine" to operate it that way for extended periods of time. Just like the truck, the less "horsing it" you do, the longer it'll last.

[the sodfather]

Yep, the day before yesterday. Two brand new Honda's with their parallel kit. I had just ran them at varying loads for 8-9 hours. I changed the oil to Pennzoil Synthetic 10w-30, hooked up the parallel kit, threw the 5th main breaker open, fired 'em up, threw the main and ran them 2-3 hours with the 15000 BTU A/C on.

Good info. Thanks! I'm pretty sure this is the way I'm gonna go.

[dcg9381]

Generators are much the same. Just because it's "rated" to produce 1600 watts "continuous" doesn't mean that it's "good for the machine" to operate it that way for extended periods of time. Just like the truck, the less "horsing it" you do, the longer it'll last.


I'll engage in a friendly debate on that:

The difference is RPM. Automotive motors tend to put out peak HP at an RPM that's pretty stressful on the motor. Although I agree that it'd be bad to operate your Corvette at peak HP all day long (assuming you could keep it on the road) - 6000rpm ~460hp, the difference in these generators is that they're constant RPM regardless of load.

That is (not considering the "eco" option) - they run at the same fixed 3600 RPM regardless of how much power you're demanding. Your automotive motor has a much wider operating range and most aren't built to sustain peak HP operation, at least if you want them to live for a decade...

What changes with generator load is the stress on the motor, not the RPM. When you load them, you're doing two things:
1) Putting more physical load on the motor, which is counter acted-by moving to a more open throttle position to keep that 3600 rpm.
2) You're pushing more amps through the windings on the electrical side.

As long as you're under the "continuous" rating - you should be fine. The motor itself is designed for that stress (more actually @ peak rating) and the internal windings were designed for this amp load and can operate on it indefinitely, much like the 15-20A circuits in your home.

Exceed rated capacity and one of two things will happen:
1) You'll over draw the electrics and trip a breaker.
2) You'll pull down below 3600 rpm and quickly kill the generator.. Kinda like stalling your stick-shift car.

Neither of which is a sustainable condition. This affords some protection against "doing it wrong".


Before JRTJH throws me under the bus for being an idiot, I'll point out a parallel:

General aviation motors, those in your basic Cessna or Piper, largely operate at exactly the same way as a generator motor. That is, they operate at peak RPM pretty much all day long without downside. And like generator motors, that peak RPM is relatively low (typically 2500-2800 rpm). They're designed for it - long stroke, relatively low RPM, they're built to build power this RPM range and sustain it. Loading them up doesn't hurt them as long as you stay within general design limits. Many mechanics will argue that "babying" an aviation motor is actually worse for it that running it at 75-100% power..

Note, a 5.0L Ford can put down 400 hp at 6000rpm. A 5.0L Cessna puts down 180hp at 2700 rpm - so there are trade-offs to this sort of design difference, not accounting for the difference in technology.

I'd say that running a generator near peak continuous load is probably about the same as towing with your truck within it's tow rating. It's doing more work, it's eating more fuel, and it is harder than sitting around not towing, but it's by no means abusive or horsing it..

[kfxgreenie]

Got this in an email earlier today!

http://www.campingworld.com/browse/skus/index.cfm?skunum=88537&rewrote&affiliateid=5193&gclid=CIWz0Kjh38sCFQ8yaQodXlYKUg

[JRTJH]

dcg9831,

I don't know why you'd think anyone would be thrown under the bus.

Your analogy of the 3600RPM generator is true for the "OLD" contractor single speed generator, but doesn't apply to the inverter generator. It doesn't "spin at 3600 RPM and varies speed depending on inverter load. Essentially, it's a 12 VDC alternator coupled to a 2000 watt inverter with a "sustained rating" of 1600 watts (when in "Honda colors" and 1700 watts when in "Champion colors"). The gas motor drives the alternator head at a "slow speed" when little power is required and the engine RPM increases (as does the alternator head speed) when more power is required by the inverter section. The alternator output is rectified and fed to the inverter section as 12VDC. The gas motor idles unless more DC power is required and only runs at "max RPM" when under "heavy load", so essentially, loading the generator to "continuous power output" causes it to run faster, creating more wear and reducing it's lifetime. How much??? I've no idea, but if you consider that bearings (and other components) have a mean time to failure, the more times the bearing turns, the faster it reaches that life expectancy.

You can read Yamaha's explanation of the difference between the two generator technologies here: http://www.yamahaef2000is.com/conventional_generator_vs_inverter_generator.html

As for whether it's "good or bad" for a generator to run it at peak RPM and peak output is entirely up to the individual. Run yours any way you want, I'll "baby mine" and expect it to be around for many years. Hopefully they will live up to my expectations. My concern for how equipment is treated by owners is the main reason I don't buy used equipment. Your views may differ, I won't object at all :)

[esmoglo]

Champion Power 3100-watt Portable Gas Inverter Generator runs my 15000 BTU AC with no issues I can also run all the interior lights (changed to LED’s) and water pump. If I need to run the microwave I will just turn off the AC and then turn it back on as needed, run the fridge on propane. For the money the Champion is a nice unit they also have a newer 3500W model that looks the same.

[spicercars]

Anybody that runs there air with a generator should have a ac volt meter.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Camco-55263-AC-Line-Voltage-Meter-RV-Parts-/261616032452?hash=item3ce987dac4:g:4GsAAOSw~gRV544 4&vxp=mtr

Yes a lot of generators will run your air but if you don't have the right voltage you will burn the ac unit up because they will run on lower voltage but you would never know it without the meter. Easy to use just plug it in an outlet and if the needle is in the green you good to go.

[dcg9381]

Your analogy of the 3600RPM generator is true for the "OLD" contractor single speed generator, but doesn't apply to the inverter generator.

I didn't realize the discussion was particular to the inverter-type. And note, I did mention the "Eco" option (non-constant speed), but I didn't call out inverter generators by name...

I don't (yet) own an inverter generator, but the gensets I have, I'll run right up to rated capacity, as long as they're not lugging and sustain RPM. I believe they're made to do it, just like aircraft motors.

Another poster is right, an AC volt meter is good to have, but generally if they're dropping off, you can hear it..

I understand how you might feed differently in the inverter generator case, that makes a little more sense to me - as it's much more like running a car at higher RPM.

The one I baby has "Onan" on the label - and generally, I run the champion simple to keep the hours off of it... But when I do run it, I don't hesitate to use both ACs.. :-)

[JRTJH]

I didn't realize the discussion was particular to the inverter-type. ...
I don't (yet) own an inverter generator, but the gensets I have, I'll run right up to rated capacity, as long as they're not lugging and sustain RPM. I believe they're made to do it, just like aircraft motors...

The part of my post quoted in "friendly debate" was specifically addressing Honda EU2000 generators and their "rated continuous output" of 1600 watts. So, yes, I was specifically addressing inverter generators in my comments.

The points that you made really are more addressed to the "old technology" of "construction generators", and I agree with you about conventional generator use and operation. It's true that most "conventional (construction type) generators are capable of producing any output "up to the continuous rating" because they all turn at 3600 RPM (so the generator output is 60 cycles per second). Because of that requirement of having to run at "full speed" all the time, they typically produce more noise, use more fuel and still don't produce "clean energy" from most of the models that are used in the RV environment. Having said that, even with "conventional generators" I've found that in hot weather, running the generator "up to the max" continuous rating for a sustained time (more than 3 or 4 hours) will often cause degradation of the field windings leading to premature failure of the generator head (usually measured in seasons or years of operation, not trips in a single summer).

Essentially, this entire thread has been about "generators for RV's" but almost all the models discussed and most of the posts have referred to inverter generators.

You're right to consider that with your "conventional generator" you can "run it right up to the rated output as long as it maintains RPM and doesn't lug down". Two "BIG" considerations with conventional generators is to monitor their output to be sure it's not over the continuous rating (the output isn't monitored automatically and they will "overwork themselves" up to the breaker's rating) and probably the most important consideration is to always, ALWAYS allow the generator to run with no load for several minutes (at least) so it will cool down before you "shut it down". Probably the biggest "induced failure condition" is stopping a hot generator and allowing it to "heat soak" and damage the field windings.

Like conventional generators, inverter generators need to be "treated kindly" at shutdown to prolong their life.

Fortunately, with most RV's, even when the generator is used to power the A/C, the compressor only runs for 15 or 20 minutes at a time, so the power demand for most generators changes frequently, allowing the generator/alternator head to cool down frequently during the "continuous operation" of the equipment.

[Charby]

Depending on the particular AC unit and the condition of its starting curcuit one might even experience issues where once there wern't any.

I had a brand new 15K unit which would not run on either my 2400w Yamaha or my pair of 2000w since the Yamahas can have issues maintaining an instantaneous overload condition.

I installed this $12 part and my issues went away. As a matter of fact when I removed the AC cover, the wiring diagram even included it as optional.

Hard Start Cap (http://www.amazon.com/SPP6-Capacitor-Combination-Operating-Voltage/dp/B000LDPI26?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage)
Are you saying the Yamaha 2000 will start 13.5 BTU AC without overload with hard cap installed?

[JRTJH]

Are you saying the Yamaha 2000 will start 13.5 BTU AC without overload with hard cap installed?

No, he's saying this, "I had a brand new 15K unit which would not run on either my 2400w Yamaha or my pair of 2000w since the Yamahas can have issues maintaining an instantaneous overload condition."

His new 15K A/C wouldn't start with either his "SINGLE" Yamaha 2400 unit or his "PAIR" of Yamaha 2000 units. He reported he installed a "hard start capacitor" and his problem went away. He never stated he even tried to run it on a single Yamaha 2000 watt generator. I don't see where bill-e ever even addressed trying to start a 13.5K A/C.

[Charby]

No, he's saying this, "I had a brand new 15K unit which would not run on either my 2400w Yamaha or my pair of 2000w since the Yamahas can have issues maintaining an instantaneous overload condition."

His new 15K A/C wouldn't start with either his "SINGLE" Yamaha 2400 unit or his "PAIR" of Yamaha 2000 units. He reported he installed a "hard start capacitor" and his problem went away. He never stated he even tried to run it on a single Yamaha 2000 watt generator. I don't see where bill-e ever even addressed trying to start a 13.5K A/C.
Excuse me for missing that detail.

[bill-e]

As for a 13.5k unit, my Yamaha 2400is ran it just fine but since that camper and AC unit we're used, I have no idea as to whether or not it had a Hard Start cap installed which I didn't mention it in my original reply.

I'm pretty happy with the Yamaha's even though they have a surge capacity issue. The motors are a great design and they have both a fuel gauge and fuel cutoff which the Honda 2000's don't have.

Did I mention that we got 5"+ of snow today which forced me to reschedule a warranty appointment for my camper!!