Testing the Cougar Polar Package Plus

[hdxbonez]

I've stayed in my 326SRX in temps down to about 10 degrees, but next weekend looks like lows will be well below zero, perhaps as low as -15 degrees on our mountain in New Hampshire. I dry camp in the winter, only using the toilet and 1 grey tank with water I bring with me. I have the roof vents plugged with insulating covers, and run 2 oil filled electric heaters in addition to the propane furnace and electric fireplace. So far, the camper has stayed more than comfortable, but this weekend will be the real test. I'm hoping that the Cougar will give me the year round capabilities that my previous campers have struggled with....

[hankaye]

hdxbonez, Howdy;

Good luck ... please let us know how well you and the RV survived.

hankaye

[Steve S]

There's a lot of threads about the Polar Package and in short it's pretty much a sales scam:eek: If you pull your coroplast you'll see that there's not much there . I insulated the underbelly with rigid foam and it really made a difference. Also window film makes a world of difference. With two heaters and the furnace as a backup I think that you'll be fine.:)

[bsmith0404]

If you are set up on a perm sight, some skirting will help. If you are not worried about appearances, hay bales make a great skirting/insulation package to help keep the heat in/cold out of the dead space under the camper. If appearance is a concern, you can still use the hay, just put some other material outside of it. For example, put a canvas over it and then a decorative lattice around, or use mobile home skirting (more expensive). Good luck.

[Festus2]

While bales of hay are have good insulating qualities and are cheap, they also have some negative features such as:
1) they could be an attraction for rodents;
2) they may get damp/wet and moldy;
3) they present a possible fire hazard, and;
4) some RV campgrounds do not allow them for some of the above reasons.

[Ken / Claudia]

Keep some venting open, window(s) or vents or both to allow the moist air to get out. Without venting you get moisture turning to water inside, which makes other problems.

[hdxbonez]

I haven't installed any skirting yet in an effort to discourage rodents. I'm hoping that the unit's insulation is sufficient to keep it comfortable in sub zero temps. Propane is relatively cheap these days, I can fill a #30 bottle for $14, and I'm only there for a few days at a time, so I'm more concerned about keeping the critters out than thermal efficiency. Condensation hasn't been an issue in this unit yet, it's usually only the wife and I staying in it along with our 2 dogs. Between her going outside to smoke, and letting the dogs out to do their thing, there seems to be a frequent air exchange. We generally bring prepared meals after its been winterized, so there isn't much cooking or dishwashing to add to the humidity. The window film is something I've been considering, the main slide windows do have a draft when the shades are open. This weekend should answer that question for me!

[Pmedic4]

If you are set up on a perm sight, some skirting will help. If you are not worried about appearances, hay bales make a great skirting/insulation package to help keep the heat in/cold out of the dead space under the camper. If appearance is a concern, you can still use the hay, just put some other material outside of it. For example, put a canvas over it and then a decorative lattice around, or use mobile home skirting (more expensive). Good luck.

Keeping the wind from blowing under the RV is good, just be cautious about inviting friends to stay when you use bales. I'm talking about little furry friends, like mice, bugs and well, rats. There usually is enough food left in straw and hay bales, to make a nice home, with eating accommodations for these guys.

On the positive side, we recently took a trip to Florida, and even though the temperatures dropped down into the 20's, a small 1500 watt heater did a great job of keeping the furnace off most of the night. Except don't do what we did one night, we left the bathroom vent open and the furnace ran quite a bit that night, as the bathroom shares a wall with the thermostat on the other side. Couldn't figure out why the furnace ran so much until in the morning when noticed this vent was open. I'm sure the furnace would probably run more with the temps in the single digits, but I was pleased in the 20 degree range.

[CaptnJohn]

Had my Cougar out recently. High 20s was as low as it went. Not much furnace use as the fireplace kept it comfy through the day. In the 20s I wanted some heat in the belly. Supposedly it is good to zero but I think the furnace will be on often but I'd not be afraid of it either.

[bsmith0404]

Yes hay can attract critters, but leaving a nice supply of poison for them can also take care of that. The main thing I was looking at is the lows at night that the OP will be dealing with. Trying to maintain some heat in the underbelly is going to be his main concern during the negative temps. Obviously there is a big difference between 20 and -9, some temporary/cheap insulation to get him through the few days of cold weather that he is going to experience is better than dealing with frozen water lines.

When you are dealing with 20 degree lows, the underbelly only has to soak up 10-15 degrees from the living compartment to keep everything in good working order. With near -10 temps, it now has to keep at least 40 degrees of heat from the living area. That is a huge difference, but the biggest game changer is the length of time you deal with it. When the lows are in the 20s, it's typically only a couple hours that they dip that low and then everything warms back up to near or above freezing. When the temps are sub zero, the highs seldom get near or above freezing, that is a game changer for water lines. I would not use hay bales as a permanent situation, but it's a quick and cheap remedy to get through a rough weekend.

[JRTJH]

Well, from a practicality standpoint, using hay would most likely be out of the question. Hay bales are about 18"x18"x36", the Cougar 326 is 37' long, so there's roughly 90' of "perimeter" to stack hay around. That comes to roughly 30 bales of hay. I don't know about New Hampshire, but transporting 30 bales of hay around northern Michigan in the winter isn't something most people would consider for a "weekend of camping".

Even at $3 a bale, that's roughly $100, and you still have the issue of "getting rid of the hay" on Sunday afternoon. If the trailer's going to be left in place, you certainly don't want to leave the hay stacked under it, and if it's in a campground, you won't find the owner's willing to let you leave 30 bales stacked around the campground, so essentially, if you haul it in, you'll be hauling it out (assuming it isn't frozen to the ground) in which case you'll be coming back to "clean up" later in the year....

Nope, for a weekend, attempting to haul a "load of hay" into most anywhere, just for 2 days, is pretty much impractical. Any argument of leaving it under the trailer while unattended invites many more problems than it answers. There's mold, critters, potential for fire if the bales get wet and start rotting, smell, and damage to the underside from all of the above...

Hay isn't a good option, especially for a "2 day jaunt".

The OP would be better off just shoveling snow around the foundation and leaving a couple of openings, one on each side to be covered with a small sheet of plywood or even cardboard. When leaving, just remove the plywood, you'll get some ventilation under the trailer to keep things "dry" and as the season warms, the snow will "take care of itself"....

But, realistically, for a 2 day venture of "dry camping".... All he probably needs is just to plug in an "extra electric heater" if anything at all...

[hdxbonez]

My camper is winterized from October to May, so no worries about the water lines. I use the black, and 1grey tank with water from jugs that I bring with me. The tanks and dump valves are supposed to have ducted heat, and they each have a gallon of anti freeze in them from the previous trip. When I use the supplemental electric radiators to help heat, the furnace hardly runs when it's 20* to 30* outside. I would think that below zero temps would have it running enough to keep the holding tanks functional.

[hankaye]

hdxbonez, Howdy;

My camper is winterized from October to May, so no worries about the water lines. I use the black, and 1grey tank with water from jugs that I bring with me. The tanks and dump valves are supposed to have ducted heat, and they each have a gallon of anti freeze in them from the previous trip. When I use the supplemental electric radiators to help heat, the furnace hardly runs when it's 20* to 30* outside. I would think that below zero temps would have it running enough to keep the holding tanks functional.

The key here is your use of the phrase "supposed to help" when talking
about the "Polar Package". The only way to truly see what is there is to
SEE what is there. An excellent series of postings by a member only
known as geo goes into very good detail as to what he found and even
better how he went about fixing it. Here's a lin sttle in get comfortable, take notes ...
http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=19807

hankaye

[hdxbonez]

hdxbonez, Howdy;



The key here is your use of the phrase "supposed to help" when talking
about the "Polar Package". The only way to truly see what is there is to
SEE what is there. An excellent series of postings by a member only
known as geo goes into very good detail as to what he found and even
better how he went about fixing it. Here's a lin sttle in get comfortable, take notes ...
http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=19807

hankaye

Thanks for the link, there is a lot of good information there. But I won't be pulling any coroplast down and inspecting this weekend. High temp on Sunday is forecast to be 3 degrees below zero! :eek: If I have troubles with draining the tanks this weekend, or drafts/cold spots that are extreme, I'll look into doing that this spring.

[hankaye]

hdxbonez, Howdy;

One thing that I used to do during the brutally cold winters I survived in
Central Utah was deposit about 1 to 1.5 cups of ice-melt into the drains
of the tanks just after I'd dumped them. It worked when the temps were
-40F. Never had a valve freeze. Now, ... how you get it in there is your puzzle.
The Black is easy, gravity is your friend. For the other (if it's Galley), then I'd
look for the burpy vent under the sink and I used a wide mouthed funnel that
I found a Wal-Mart in the auto section that looked like this;
http://www.amazon.com/Hopkins-10703-FloTool-Radiator-Funnel/dp/B000BODTS0/ref=sr_1_13?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1455230045&sr=1-13&keywords=automotive+funnels

hankaye

[hdxbonez]

hdxbonez, Howdy;

One thing that I used to do during the brutally cold winters I survived in
Central Utah was deposit about 1 to 1.5 cups of ice-melt into the drains
of the tanks just after I'd dumped them. It worked when the temps were
-40F. Never had a valve freeze. Now, ... how you get it in there is your puzzle.
The Black is easy, gravity is your friend. For the other (if it's Galley), then I'd
look for the burpy vent under the sink and I used a wide mouthed funnel that
I found a Wal-Mart in the auto section that looked like this;
http://www.amazon.com/Hopkins-10703-FloTool-Radiator-Funnel/dp/B000BODTS0/ref=sr_1_13?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1455230045&sr=1-13&keywords=automotive+funnels

hankaye

I pour a gallon of RV antifreeze into each tank after I drain them in the winter. That should accomplish the same thing, no?

[bsmith0404]

I guess spending 15 years of my life on a farm in Northern Wisconsin changes my perspective of dealing with hay bales. I never looked at them as difficult to get, haul, use, or dispose of, but they did work great for quick, easy, and temporary insulation. Many farmers would let you use/return them for a small fee (at least where I come from). It would be easier to deal with for a two day hard freeze than broken water lines.

I've never seen a bale of hay get frozen to the ground so bad that a little kick wouldn't break it free. Since things don't mold or have mildew problems when it's below freezing, that's not an issue if it is only a temp situation and you clean up before things thaw.

I was just giving a quick and easy option to provide some insulation qualities to help with heat and protection of water lines during the short cold snap that the OP is concerned about. I did not make assumptions of what the campground will or will not allow, or the ease of getting, hauling, or disposing of. I figured the consideration of options and the practicality of use for each is his decision.

However, since the OP has his RV winterized and isn't worried about freezing waterlines, a heater or two on standby to help the furnace should be good.

Just an FYI for anyone wondering about wet hay being a fire hazard. Wet hay is a fire hazard when it is stacked such as in a large storage area or barn. The chemical changes in wet hay create heat. The bales in the center of the stack do not have enough air circulation to release that heat. For the bales to spontaneously combust, the internal temp needs to get in the 200 degree range. Many farms/barns have burned from hay that is too wet being stacked/stored. That does not happen with a couple bales in open air since the heat is released with air circulation.

[hdxbonez]

It's a bit brisk up here today! I decided to use the portable toilet instead of the camper holding tanks until I see how well it holds heat through the night. Besides, I usually leave my sewer hose out, but not connected to the camper until I need it. Right now it's so stiff that I think it would just break if I tried to stretch it to the camper drain. Im sure glad my wife is a good sport through all this!

[hankaye]

hdxbonez, Howdy;

< ... Im sure glad my wife is a good sport through all this!

I'm sure that she'll find a way to 'pay you back' when it suits her ...

hankaye

[hdxbonez]

So, yesterday morning was -23*, and today it's -14*. I'm extremely satisfied that the camper stayed comfortably warm through these extreme temps. I do have a few takeaways from this weekend however. The first is that temps that are below zero play havoc on propane efficiency, it's impossible to empty a tank before it stops flowing. I refilled two 30lb tanks, but neither was completely empty. Another thing is that the -50* antifreeze from Walmart freezes solid at -20*! I had brought 4 gallons up with me in anticipation of using them when I flushed the holding tanks upon leaving, but when I went to put them away yesterday, they were all frozen. I'm now glad that I was here this weekend with the heat on, as this is the same product that I winterized with this past fall. I'll pay more for the brand name, Prestone or similar going forward. Lastly, we have a bucket type toilet that uses disposable ziplock bags that we used this weekend. The wife and I both agree that that is much easier to use when the temps are bitter cold, as we won't have to worry about, hauling additional water for flushing, no worries about freezing tanks or valves, and we don't have to fight the elements to drain the tanks when we leave.

All in all, it was a successful weekend, and going forward I have no worries about staying in the Cougar in any weather. I'm very happy that this camper will give us the year round ability that we've been hoping for.

[SADLY]

... the -50* antifreeze from Walmart freezes solid at -20*! I had brought 4 gallons up with me in anticipation of using them when I flushed the holding tanks upon leaving, but when I went to put them away yesterday, they were all frozen. I'm now glad that I was here this weekend with the heat on, as this is the same product that I winterized with this past fall. I'll pay more for the brand name, Prestone or similar going forward....

All RV antifreeze will freeze or get slushy at certain temps. This is normal.

Its properties are such that it does NOT expand (unlike water) when it freezes. No damage from broken pipes and fittings.

[hdxbonez]

All RV antifreeze will freeze or get slushy at certain temps. This is normal.

Its properties are such that it does NOT expand (unlike water) when it freezes. No damage from broken pipes and fittings.

That may be the case with a premium product, but I can tell you that the bottoms on 2 of the jugs that i brought were bulged out to the point that they would not sit flat on my shed floor. Here's a photo that I took this morning, you can see the bulge in the jug on the left, and the cap popped on the right hand jug. The thermometer in my shed read -22*F.http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_193690_0_dce9020561ffa7351a45c9eba69543ac.jpg

[SkiSmuggs]

Great, just great!

[JRTJH]

Looking at those antifreeze jugs is "unsettling" ....

Through the years, I've found that "Artic Ban" RV antifreeze to be "reliable"... By that, I mean that so far, I've never had any plumbing damage when using this brand. It costs a bit more than some of the "cheaper stuff" but ACE hardware almost always has it on sale for $2.99 a gallon every fall. Occasionally they sell the "leftovers" in the spring for $1.99 a gallon. I can't attest to any other brands, but Arctic Ban has worked for me in -30F temps for the past 6 years in northern Michigan. I even put it in my pressure washer and 12 volt sprayers.

[SADLY]

That may be the case with a premium product, but I can tell you that the bottoms on 2 of the jugs that i brought were bulged out to the point that they would not sit flat on my shed floor. Here's a photo that I took this morning, you can see the bulge in the jug on the left, and the cap popped on the right hand jug. The thermometer in my shed read -22*F.http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_193717_0_dce9020561ffa7351a45c9eba69543ac.jpg

That sucks... :(

Stick with the good stuff and don't sweat it! The expansion should be nill!

[hankaye]

hdxbonez, Howdy;

At the least, open the taps to give it room to grow. any los will end up in the drains
then the traps. Oh, did you pour some into sit in the traps???

hankaye

[rhagfo]

That may be the case with a premium product, but I can tell you that the bottoms on 2 of the jugs that i brought were bulged out to the point that they would not sit flat on my shed floor. Here's a photo that I took this morning, you can see the bulge in the jug on the left, and the cap popped on the right hand jug. The thermometer in my shed read -22*F.http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_193747_0_dce9020561ffa7351a45c9eba69543ac.jpg

This is one of the reasons I prefer to blow the lines!!
The second is wife's taste is very sensitive and it takes forever to flush out the taste.
the third is we four season camp and several of the SP we go to don't have full hookups, so we don't want to fill the tanks flushing the system.

[hdxbonez]

Haven't seen the Arctic Ban product around here, but Walmart does also carry Prestone. You can bet I'll spend the extra $1.50 a jug in the future! The extreme cold has passed, and I had the heat on throughout it, so I'm not really concerned about any damage to my camper. We'll find out in May, though.....

Like many others, I prefer to keep anti freeze in my plumbing as opposed to just blowing the lines out. I never feel confident that all of the low spots are completely evacuated. Besides, I'm relying on the antifreeze in my traps and drain valves anyway, and I dont mind flushing the system in the spring.

[Pmedic4]

That may be the case with a premium product, but I can tell you that the bottoms on 2 of the jugs that i brought were bulged out to the point that they would not sit flat on my shed floor. Here's a photo that I took this morning, you can see the bulge in the jug on the left, and the cap popped on the right hand jug. The thermometer in my shed read -22*F.http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_193876_0_dce9020561ffa7351a45c9eba69543ac.jpg

Well, I feel cold just reading the temperature in your shed was -22°.

Actually, I like to at least put antifreeze into my pump, I'm not sure it would blow out or not, so I just pump some in through the intake.

[Pmedic4]

Looking at those antifreeze jugs is "unsettling" ....

Through the years, I've found that "Artic Ban" RV antifreeze to be "reliable"... By that, I mean that so far, I've never had any plumbing damage when using this brand. It costs a bit more than some of the "cheaper stuff" but ACE hardware almost always has it on sale for $2.99 a gallon every fall. Occasionally they sell the "leftovers" in the spring for $1.99 a gallon. I can't attest to any other brands, but Arctic Ban has worked for me in -30F temps for the past 6 years in northern Michigan. I even put it in my pressure washer and 12 volt sprayers.

I've always worried about my Pressure washer and kept it in the garage, not heated but close to the house, and never thought about the 12 volt sprayer. Thanks for the non-RV tip!

[nellie1289]

Here in the warm climates of western Oregon we just blow out the lines on my RV. I would be totally confident doing this in the cold climates of Michigan or CT as others have posted here, given how well it seems to blow out. even if a little water is left it should have room to expand, but I would be interested in getting your take on it for those of you from these really cold states? Pumping it through seems like overkill.

Ps, the jugs pic I would send that off to the manufacturer customer service and call out there BS. that is not a good sign!

[bsmith0404]

When I lived in colder climates I've done both the blowout and the antifreeze methods and didn't have a problem with either. If I used antifreeze, I would also blow the lines out as well to make sure I didn't have diluted antifreeze in the lines, probably overkill.

We still get some cold weather down here in NM so I do winterize still (just to be on the safe side), but I don't blow the lines out. I can pump antifreeze through in about 5 mins, very quick and easy winterization process.

[ilovedahorse]

Does hay really work better than straw bales? We've used yellow oat straw for various winter insulating protection. It seems like the straw bales are also used in house building, etc.

[flybouy]

Does hay really work better than straw bales? We've used yellow oat straw for various winter insulating protection. It seems like the straw bales are also used in house building, etc.

Welcome to the forum. The post thread your are in is over 4 years old. You would have a better chance of getting responses if you post a new thread.

[travelin texans]

Does hay really work better than straw bales? We've used yellow oat straw for various winter insulating protection. It seems like the straw bales are also used in house building, etc.

Personally would NOT use either, that's turning on the he VACANCY sign for critters to share your nice warm rv with you. Not to mention the price of hay or straw these days could get costly rather quickly.
Better option would foam board as skirting.