If I would Have Known.

[dfb]

Last March we purchased a brand new Montana 3611rl with the Legacy package. If I would have known the Parent company was THOR I wold Have ran away! We have owned 6 previous 5th Wheel. We have had Skyline and Fleetwood Product and the last was a K-Z. NOT ONE time did we have issues like on this MONTANA.. Right from the Get Go the Toilet would not hold Water, the Water Heater did not work on electric, the black waste handle did not work and the fridge doors were dented. Front Cap was all chipped up. So, out of nearly 1 year of ownership we have had it for 3 months. The rest of the time it has been in the body shop, and now for the 2nd time back to the Dealer. This is for the Awning pulling out of the rail. The LED interior light burnt out. The BLACK WATER handle again!. The TOILET AGAIN not holding water. The siding support undone at the rear so the side metal bounces as you drive down the road.The carpet look old after 3 MONTHS! I pay for any damage I cause. However , KEYSTONE wants me to pay for their SCREWUP on the black water valve. The cable was originally routed wrong so the blade would not fully close. The first time it was brought in the dealer fixed the cable but did not check the blade valve for toilet paper. Now they want US to pay for this when if Keystone did their job RIGHT the first time, this would not be an issue.. STAY AWAY FROM ANY THOR PRODUCT!

[dcg9381]

My thoughts:
1) Toilet not holding water - isn't that a simple seal?
2) Front cap chipped and dents in the fridge - did you miss those at pick-up time? Sounds like this is likely delivery damage. Did you buy one sight unseen or buy one off the lot?
3) Sliding support - not sure what that is - my guess is that it's the side skirt support, which is a common problem (and easy fix) - exacerbated by lack of balanced wheels/tires from the factory.
4) Awning pulling out -not good.. Sounds like a legit problem.
5) LED light burnt out? Just one? Is it a big issue?
6) Dealer fixed cable routing, but apparently it couldn't close completely due to paper in the valve area... Again, not ideal, but hardly a huge problem.


Sorry you're having issues - but trust me, in the grand scheme of RV issues, most of these sound small or are the product of delivery issues...

Dealers not fixing things right the first time is definitely an issue.. I've run into that myself...

[dfb]

My thoughts:
1) Toilet not holding water - isn't that a simple seal?
2) Front cap chipped and dents in the fridge - did you miss those at pick-up time? Sounds like this is likely delivery damage. Did you buy one sight unseen or buy one off the lot?
3) Sliding support - not sure what that is - my guess is that it's the side skirt support, which is a common problem (and easy fix) - exacerbated by lack of balanced wheels/tires from the factory.
4) Awning pulling out -not good.. Sounds like a legit problem.
5) LED light burnt out? Just one? Is it a big issue?
6) Dealer fixed cable routing, but apparently it couldn't close completely due to paper in the valve area... Again, not ideal, but hardly a huge problem.


Sorry you're having issues - but trust me, in the grand scheme of RV issues, most of these sound small or are the product of delivery issues...

Dealers not fixing things right the first time is definitely an issue.. I've run into that myself...
On things I break I FIX!. Like the fan globe. Or the unit got scuffed.. I buffed it out. the thing is is that THOR has ZERO quality Control. Why would an RV leave the factory with a toilet that won't hold water.. Dealer tried to fix it the first time by GREASING THE RUBBER SEAL.. It did not work. The water heater electric cable was not hooked up at the factory. The Black water valve was not correctly routed. I have owned 6 PREVIOUS 5th wheels and NEVER NEVER issues like this.. EVER.. Yes I am toasted. I can understand lights burning out. But stuff that should be tested before sold to the Dealers? I give NO slack there.. Back up camera had to be replaced because it was Always HOT. The company that built the camera said it needs to be an observation camera not backup since it is alway on.. I had ONE issue with another RV. It was the Convertor. I called the company and I fixed it for 2.40 cents.. The Dealer wanted 400.00 for a new converter... I am NOT impressed right now with the lack of quality in the Montana.. They must have looked hard and long for the CHEAPEST POS carpet on the Planet.. MY K_Z new vision ultra's carpet still looked like new after 12 years... This carpet looks worn at 3 months.. That is a BIG QUALITY ISSUE.. it tells me they don't give a damn about the people who put food on their table...I am thinking Of buying another 5th wheel from another company...as long as they aren't THOR...

[dfb]

about the toilet, do a search. Most folks throw the Thetfords out for the Dometic...Black water blade no big deal? no its not until you find POP RIVETS holding the under belly on...

and what is the CABLE SLIDES??? This is stupid... USE RACK AND PINION!! Cables stretch....
I would have fixed the LED rope lights myself.. But KEYSTONE would not tell me the name of the company who makes the rope lights!! Never heard of this.. I know the manufacturer of every other part on the coach... But they won't let you know??

[Javi]

good luck...:wlcm:

as a note.... everything except the carpet is a dealer PDI issue... Thor, and nearly everyone else pay their dealers to inspect and repair these items before the sale to the end user... Blame the dealer... probably for the pop rivets too..

[dfb]

good luck...:wlcm:

as a note.... everything except the carpet is a dealer PDI issue... Thor, and nearly everyone else pay their dealers to inspect and repair these items before the sale to the end user... Blame the dealer... probably for the pop rivets too..

Thank You for the advice.. It will be a year next month and the rv has spent 9 months in the repair facilities.. a lot of things I can do myself.. Like the led rope light but Keystone refused to give the manufacturers name so I could do it myself. The Blade valve I have done before. 4 screws.. I guess I'm just very frustrated by the amount of time this has been in the shop....Plus I am recovering from open back surgery and still numb.. So that kinda wears on me too....

[dcg9381]

I'll agree with you there. Keystone isn't much for end-user support.. And as much as I know I'm about to hear "GM doesn't support buyer directly" - that's not necessarily true of all other RV manufacturers.

Generally these things are built the same. Keystone (Thor) cranks out more volume and may or may not have more quality issues. Other manufacturers are advertising post-manufacturer PDI (pre-dealer) and some dealers do some advanced PDI's - I've seen at least one advertisement for leak testing per-delivery. The lights on your Keystone likely to be shared with higher end models. Same thing with fridge, I suspect front caps, etc..


Like yours - mine spent some time in the shop. I don't know if any manufacturer you can avoid it (on most purchases) - at least that's the conclusion I've come to. You can buy used - and get a RV that's already been shaken down.. And you can buy RVs with better warranties and factory direct support, but they do cost more...

[Festus2]

Last March we purchased a brand new Montana 3611rl with the Legacy package. If I would have known the Parent company was THOR I wold Have ran away! We have owned 6 previous 5th Wheel. We have had Skyline and Fleetwood Product and the last was a K-Z. NOT ONE time did we have issues like on this MONTANA.. STAY AWAY FROM ANY THOR PRODUCT!

dfb -
Your recommendation and probable future decision to "stay away from any Thor product" certainly reduces the makes and models that you would look at and perhaps buy.

You can scratch off any of these from your shopping list:
Airstream
Bison
Crossroads - including Sequoia, Cameo, Carriage, Zinger, Z-1, Redwood --
Cruiser - including Interra, Fun Finder, Radiance, Stryker
DRV - including Mobile Suites, Elite Suites -----
Dutchmen - Aerolite, Coleman, Denali, Voltage
Heartland - Big Horn, Big Country, Wilderness, Prowler
K-Z - Durango, Vision, ------
Thor - Motor Coach

You also stated your last RV was a K-Z that "did not have issues like we've had on our Montana" and yet K-Z is owned by Thor.

I'm sorry to read about the troubles you've had with the Montana (made by Keystone which is owned by Thor). As I indicated above, Thor owns numerous RV manufacturing companies but to paint all of Thor products with the same "Do not buy!" brush doesn't make any sense. It's akin to saying "Never buy a Ford product" because of a problem one person had with a Ford Focus.

[dfb]

K-Z was bought by Thor in 2014.. Ours was a 2003.. They were great. We also had a Tahoe by thor.. Not too bad, not too good.. It was filon and that sucker warped all over the place.. Don't care about cross roads, but Mobile Suites? That sux..no Dutchman either, Airstream was top drawer,,, I don't know now that the Cheap skated took over Airstream.. Lots of complaints on the Thor Motor coaches.Shoot,,, and I liked the Redwoods!

[SADLY]

I bought my Keyston in 2012 and haven't been back to the dealer yet....

Well except when I crunched a cabinet door with the slide out - but I'll chalk that up to my fault.

[dfb]

I bought my Keyston in 2012 and haven't been back to the dealer yet....

Well except when I crunched a cabinet door with the slide out - but I'll chalk that up to my fault.

Did the cabinet door too.. MY Fault.. door was open when closing slide... I just read the rules and I think I violated them by downing a product.. can I take it back..

[GaryWT]

Yes somethings should be fixed before it leaves the factory but it does not sound like the dealer is good. You should be able to get things fixed quicker. Send the list, have them get the parts and then bring it in. The 2 times I have brought the trailer in, the first time I dropped it off and told them my next trip was in 2 weeks and it was ready. The second time I waited for it to be fixed the same day. Good luck.

[jsmith948]

I do not understand 9 of 12 months at the dealer for repair?
Sounds like your anger/animosity should be directed toward the dealer - not the manufacturer?
My sister had a Monico class A. It was in the shop something over 4 months for a windshield wiper motor and then when she went to pick it up the automatic steps were broken and she had to pay for that!
I think some of these dealers don't concern themselves with repeat business - gouge 'em good one time and never look back!

[dcg9381]

It's pretty easy to eat 30 days per dealer drop off. Dealer won't submit a claim until they've got the unit, then Keystone has to approve it, find the parts, ship the parts, and the dealer has to receive the parts... After that some waiting period until the RV can actually be worked on. For bigger stuff, 60 days seems to be common - at least where I am. Better in the winter (slow season). Much worse in the summer.

[CaptnJohn]

My last was a TT by Heartland and had zero problems. Bought the Cougar in December and headed to FL in January. Had a problem with the furnace Atwood took care of at the CG. Had the dealer measure and order slide toppers to be installed when I get home. Wanted to be in it for over a month so warranty work can be included at the same time. Big job ~~ when the porch light is turned on the step light comes on but not the light over the door. If OP thinks the problems are huge they best stay away from Forest River products. Several have black water tank problems as they believe the tank is used like a trash bin during the build process. Complaints of sawdust and insulation found many months after purchase when traveling and even from ducts. I was close to buying a Rockwood and glad I opted for the Cougar. FR does have a very active owners group but nothing like Heartland. The number of Heartland rallies is unbelievable with factory and vendor reps and techs arriving at the larger ones. Really miss that about Heartland and wish they built a 5er to meet our needs when shopping last.

[chuckster57]

If you can find ANY brand of RV with perfect products straight out of the factory please let us know. I have dealt with $9,000.00 entry level up to $700,000.00 units. Haven't found one without issues from the factory.

Like others, I would be directing your concerns towards the dealer, not the builder. As far as the warranty process, yes it can be slow but that's all brands. Factory won't ship parts without proof of failure, and most often pictures including model and serial number. I understand your frustration, but again I think your upset at the wrong entity.

[BOWWOW]

If you can find ANY brand of RV with perfect products straight out of the factory please let us know. I have dealt with $9,000.00 entry level up to $700,000.00 units. Haven't found one without issues from the factory.

Like others, I would be directing your concerns towards the dealer, not the builder. As far as the warranty process, yes it can be slow but that's all brands. Factory won't ship parts without proof of failure, and most often pictures including model and serial number. I understand your frustration, but again I think your upset at the wrong entity.

So are you implying that it is the dealers fault that the manufacturer's are building a POS ? IMO they are usually both trying to take the easiest way out! "Usually"

[JRTJH]

So are you implying that it is the dealers fault that the manufacturer's are building a POS ? IMO they are usually both trying to take the easiest way out! "Usually"

I don't think Chuckster57 is "implying that anyone is at fault", nor do I see anywhere that he refers to anything produced by the "manufacturer" is a "POS"... He didn't use that term at all, so, no he didn't imply anything of the sort... Rather he is acknowledging that anyone can make a mistake. Manufacturers are not immune from that "human frailty" any more than the rest of us. It's "good business practice" for the dealer" to check the RV fully and identify any problem areas, contact the manufacturer and determine an acceptable repair solution. Sometimes, a dealer will "take the easy way out" and wait until the new owner "finds the mistakes" and then blame Keystone rather than acknowledge that they failed to even check the basic utilities before delivery... That's not a "responsible way to do business", at least not from my vantage point.

What is unfortunate about the OP's situation is the 9 months that he's been "jerked around" by the dealer. Yes, I say "dealer" because a "responsible dealership would have "taken the bull by the horns" and provided solutions for their customer rather than "slow leak" the problems while blaming "big bad Keystone".... Especially when you look at just how "inexpensive and fast" repairs would have been to the identified problems the OP illustrated. At most, all combined, they are less than a half day's work for a competent RV tech. So, to have "waited 9 months without resolution" doesn't reflect on Keystone nearly as much as it does on the dealership.....

I am in agreement with Chuckster, I've seen problems with $9000 entry level "junk" and I've seen problems with "million dollar diesel pushers". In fact, if you've ever watched the RV shows on TV, you've probably seen the "quick fixes" they do to those 3/4 million dollar "busses" so the new owner doesn't find the broken cabinet door or the scratched shower wall or the chipped granite counter... Unfortunately, that silicone, or furniture crayon "falls away" after a few months and the new owner is left with a chipped counter, often wondering, "How'd that happen???" It often seems the objective is: Get the money and run!!!

Bottom line, if it's made by humans, chances are that before it's all finished, there will be an error "somewhere"........... Too bad we all can't be perfect :banghead:

Remember though, we've only read one side of a "two sided situation"... I'm sure that if the dealership and Keystone were as vocal as the OP, we'd hear another version, one that probably doesn't fall "perfectly into place".....

[chuckster57]

Exactly. Weather it's an entry level or luxury level coach, they are built by humans not robots.

I never did imply that any manufacturer purposely builds a POS. Being a tech and seeing numerous different brands, I do have my PERSONAL opinions on who builds a better unit, but that's not the subject of this thread.

[SADLY]

...I never did imply that any manufacturer purposely builds a POS.....

They ALL do it accidentally.... On a consistent basis... LOL :D

[CaptnJohn]

No one intentionally builds a bad coach in any price range. HOWEVER, I know I've been very fortunate in my purchases compared to many others ~~ close to saying most others. Made and installed by people will have problems at times ~ naturally and understood. BUT some coaches are delivered with problems that never should have left the factory and most should be caught by the dealer staff before going on the lot! Some things will always slip through but easily seen and tested items never should.

[dcg9381]

They ALL do it accidentally.... On a consistent basis... LOL :D

I think that's a good point. We point to a PDI inspection sheet that every buyer "should" do prior to delivery, it'd be wonderful if a manufacturer would go through the same thing.

Thing is, that adds probably 3-4 hours of labor to the process and even more when you consider that *most* (dare I say it) of those inspections WILL uncover something - so you're probably looking at a good 8-10 hours of labor that you get to push off onto a dealer.

Rather, they're pushed out the door, hopefully with no known major defects and it's the dealers responsibility sort out the minor issues. Pretty sure that my local dealer powers them up long enough to expand the slides and doesn't do much else with 'em... Until they sell.. Or until an owner gets to PDI them.

I've been trying to decide who builds a better quality out the door RV. And honestly, I thought it was Momentum, but those units have the same sort of shake down (http://www.granddesignowners.com/forum/showthread.php/4428-PDI-and-Shake-Down-for-our-new-Momentum-350M) things going on. Components are mostly the same. I can't imagine that they're paying the line staff much more.

The difference seems to largely be factory direct support and perhaps "more" willingness to make things right. Is that worth 15-20% more? I'm undecided...

[chuckster57]

Momentum is built by Grand Designs.

Pretty much all manufacturers use the same components, only difference is where it's installed on the coach.

Every dealership I have worked at does a PDI, and yes more often than not problems/defects are discovered and fixed. But keep in mind a human is doing it and can miss small things in the allotted time to complete the PDI.

Right or wrong, dealerships don't all do the same "depth" of PDI. Couple that with the fact that getting paid for warranty work is an uphill battle, I can tell you from an insiders view that there are dealers that will "ship it" and see if the customer finds it.

That is wrong in my book, and one of the main reasons I returned to work for my present employer.

So, I will repeat myself again, the issues the OP are experiencing are a dealership issue, not a manufacturer issue.

[CaptnJohn]

SOME dealers really do check them over before the sale, both new and used units. I traded my last one in and when returned to buy something for the new 5er a tech came up to me and said he prepped my coach after trade in and not only found nothing wrong but it was clean. He did the PDI for the buyer and told them it was the best taken care of he had seen. Nothing was found after 3 hours of PDI on the new 5er and only 1 surfaced that could/should have been caught before leaving the dealership. It was not visible but noticed when used.



Momentum is built by Grand Designs.

Pretty much all manufacturers use the same components, only difference is where it's installed on the coach.

Every dealership I have worked at does a PDI, and yes more often than not problems/defects are discovered and fixed. But keep in mind a human is doing it and can miss small things in the allotted time to complete the PDI.

Right or wrong, dealerships don't all do the same "depth" of PDI. Couple that with the fact that getting paid for warranty work is an uphill battle, I can tell you from an insiders view that there are dealers that will "ship it" and see if the customer finds it.

That is wrong in my book, and one of the main reasons I returned to work for my present employer.

So, I will repeat myself again, the issues the OP are experiencing are a dealership issue, not a manufacturer issue.

[JRTJH]

SOME dealers really do check them over before the sale, both new and used units. I traded my last one in and when returned to buy something for the new 5er a tech came up to me and said he prepped my coach after trade in and not only found nothing wrong but it was clean. He did the PDI for the buyer and told them it was the best taken care of he had seen. Nothing was found after 3 hours of PDI on the new 5er and only 1 surfaced that could/should have been caught before leaving the dealership. It was not visible but noticed when used.

Responsible dealerships do just what you indicate. Unfortunately, there are some dealerships that simply don't. They, I believe, are the ones that most of the "horror stories" or "persistent complaints" come from. We've had reports from "angry purchasers" about Keystone's negligence, when more times than not, it's the dealership completely falling on their face when it comes to doing what is expected "before the sale".... Here's some examples:

1) My refrigerator wasn't working. Fix: Plugged it in.
2) My air conditioner wouldn't run. Fix: Attached thermostat wires inside the A/C.
3) Sink drain leaks. Fix: connected the sink drain, the plumbing was not connected.
4) No hot water. Fix: Turned the winterization valve to get water into the W/H, installed the anode rod and filled the water heater.
5) Awning would not extend. Fix: Connected wires to back of switch at control panel.
6) Kitchen flooded when I turned on the water pump. Fix: Connected the hot AND cold water supply lines to the faucet. Both were not connected.
7) No hot water at kitchen sink. Fix: Repaired kinked supply line.
8) No brakes. Fix: Wiring at all 4 wheels was not connected.
9) Microwave won't work. Fix: Removed from mount and plugged it in.

The list goes on and on. Every one of these is a "red flag" and begs the question: Did the dealer even unlock the door before delivery?" They all "should have" been identified by and corrected by the dealer BEFORE delivery. It speaks volumes when a new member posts here that he has problems like these and his dealer says, "Keystone won't approve the repair." They are angry and warn us, who already own Keystone products, that we should not buy a Keystone because they won't stand behind their product. Really ??? Their dealership fails them, they blame Keystone and tell us we're "somehow at fault" because we bought defective products from an irresponsible company (which just happens to be the biggest manufacturer of RV's in America) ???

I think (just my opinion) that there are issues at the factory, issues at the dealership and yes, issues with the consumer. When I read a "first time post" about how terrible Keystone is, 9 times out of 10, as I get deeper into the complaint, it becomes obvious that the dealership didn't do a PDI, or just a superficial "plug it in and turn on the TV, show the new owner the bells and whistles PDI" and sent him on his way.

There are quality dealerships, places where the customer's satisfaction is "the most important aspect" of the business. I've seldom read about issues with these dealerships and I think that's what drives the "over 90% satisfaction rate" on the "ancient poll" about Keystone satisfaction that was done on this forum back in 2011-2012. http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3015&highlight=poll

Sure, Keystone builds trailers with problems. In the above list of issues, the problem in some situations, "originated" with Keystone (on the assembly line), while others are a direct result of the dealership not servicing the unit before delivery. Every manufacturer has "issues" with less than perfection. The "rub" (I think) comes from a dealer "short-cutting" the repair or a customer wanting "something fixed now" which leads to a "bandaid fix" rather than fixing it correctly. In many of those situations, Keystone isn't even involved, yet "they're the bad guy" because their name is on the trailer..... Too often, we forget there's another name on it, usually under a tail light and/or by the main door. It's the dealer's logo. In almost every situation, they have a bigger stake in the customer's continued satisfaction than Keystone ever will......

[BOWWOW]

I don't think Chuckster57 is "implying that anyone is at fault", nor do I see anywhere that he refers to anything produced by the "manufacturer" is a "POS"... He didn't use that term at all, so, no he didn't imply anything of the sort... Rather he is acknowledging that anyone can make a mistake. Manufacturers are not immune from that "human frailty" any more than the rest of us. It's "good business practice" for the dealer" to check the RV fully and identify any problem areas, contact the manufacturer and determine an acceptable repair solution. Sometimes, a dealer will "take the easy way out" and wait until the new owner "finds the mistakes" and then blame Keystone rather than acknowledge that they failed to even check the basic utilities before delivery... That's not a "responsible way to do business", at least not from my vantage point.

What is unfortunate about the OP's situation is the 9 months that he's been "jerked around" by the dealer. Yes, I say "dealer" because a "responsible dealership would have "taken the bull by the horns" and provided solutions for their customer rather than "slow leak" the problems while blaming "big bad Keystone".... Especially when you look at just how "inexpensive and fast" repairs would have been to the identified problems the OP illustrated. At most, all combined, they are less than a half day's work for a competent RV tech. So, to have "waited 9 months without resolution" doesn't reflect on Keystone nearly as much as it does on the dealership.....

I am in agreement with Chuckster, I've seen problems with $9000 entry level "junk" and I've seen problems with "million dollar diesel pushers". In fact, if you've ever watched the RV shows on TV, you've probably seen the "quick fixes" they do to those 3/4 million dollar "busses" so the new owner doesn't find the broken cabinet door or the scratched shower wall or the chipped granite counter... Unfortunately, that silicone, or furniture crayon "falls away" after a few months and the new owner is left with a chipped counter, often wondering, "How'd that happen???" It often seems the objective is: Get the money and run!!!

Bottom line, if it's made by humans, chances are that before it's all finished, there will be an error "somewhere"........... Too bad we all can't be perfect :banghead:

Remember though, we've only read one side of a "two sided situation"... I'm sure that if the dealership and Keystone were as vocal as the OP, we'd hear another version, one that probably doesn't fall "perfectly into place".....

I think I get it now. The dealer didn't build the OP's unit, but sooner or later that lipstick they put on that pig will come off. Your right "Junk" is a better term than POS that I referred to for the manufacturers product. I think they both accidently try to take the money and run. But, being humans we don't care,we still buy it. I am just thinking that the manufacturer should do a better job of quality control for the units leaving their facility. "Big Bad Keystone should find their own solutions in house instead of pushing that burden onto the dealers. Maybe the gov dept that overseas the regulations and guidelines are humans too. which would make it a "3 sided situation" of non perfection. I put down 55k for a 5ver and 55k for a TV, never had one issue with the TV that warranted taking it back to the dealer and it did most of the work between the two. The poor extended warranty company took a huge hit on my 5ver because neither Keystone or the dealer would step up to fix problems most commonly complained about here on this forum. Again this just in my opinion.

[Ken / Claudia]

As a consumer do what ever you believe is right when spending your money.
What I really do not understand is some posts say they had to leave their RV at the dealer for months and could not use it over non safety related stuff. Yes, with the current trailer I found several things needing fixed/replaced during the PDI. We had a work order written and took the trailer. When the parts came in we got a appointment. Between that time I found some issues after the first use and informed them. I was lucky I guess they fixed them in 3 days.
I would not the RV at the dealer for weeks or months awaiting parts. Take it out and use it. Again unless it is a safety issue.

[dcg9381]

Ken / Claudia,
I can tell you that it's difficult to get a dealer (in my experience) to put a claim in on an issue they haven't seen.. Even if you provide photos. That kinda makes sense as they likely need to write up how they think it happened. Last cabinet door I had come off, I took photos of. They still wouldn't put the claim in. I had to bring the cabinet door up there to them. Why a photo won't work, I dunno.. Maybe it's to make sure they get the right part?

My dealer asks that I bring it in for all warranty things. Including dead LEDs. If I was suspicious, I might think that they do that to get out of some of the work, as I'm not going to drive the darn thing 30 miles to get a set of LEDs fixed.. Costs me more in fuel.

Once there, it'll take a few days to get to it, communicate the warranty claim, wait for an approval, find the parts, get the parts in the warehouse, then arrange shipping, wait for delivery, and then get the RV back in for work. Seems to make any repair where a part is required from Keystone a multi-week deal at best.

You're right, you could tow it in, get the claim done, tow it back out, wait for a "slot" in service... That would probably work.. Takes a lot more of my non-retired time that way.

[CaptnJohn]

The dealer where I purchased my last 2 units has a PDI charge to cover before delivery and before purchase inspection costs. Many complain about that cost but it seems well worth it. Between the 2 figure 8 - 10 hours which may or may not include minor repairs or cleaning. I saw my Cougar when opened the 1st time as it was just delivered and it was clean BUT hear of another builder that sends them in a sad state from buyers cleaning months after purchase. Sure Keystone could do better in some instances and many dealers could too, but there are a lot worse out there. Where both need a lot of change is with the large jobs under warranty and timeliness on nearly all warranty claims. I've been fortunate with my purchases ~~ wish every unit arrived like all mine have.

[Javi]

The dealer where I purchased my last 2 units has a PDI charge to cover before delivery and before purchase inspection costs. Many complain about that cost but it seems well worth it. Between the 2 figure 8 - 10 hours which may or may not include minor repairs or cleaning. I saw my Cougar when opened the 1st time as it was just delivered and it was clean BUT hear of another builder that sends them in a sad state from buyers cleaning months after purchase. Sure Keystone could do better in some instances and many dealers could too, but there are a lot worse out there. Where both need a lot of change is with the large jobs under warranty and timeliness on nearly all warranty claims. I've been fortunate with my purchases ~~ wish every unit arrived like all mine have.
Just a note. ... Keystone is paying that dealer to do a PDI, so he is doubling down on your money.

Another note.... auto dealers are also paid for PDI by the manufacturer.

[sourdough]

Well, I've followed this post but refrained from responding because it is seemingly impossible to deflect anyone intent on ripping Keystone from doing so...regardless of where the blame resides.

I have had a myriad of problems with my trailer, BUT, most could not have been discovered on either the dealer or my PDI. They manifested themselves further into my ownership, and yes, most are manufacturing defects. Keystone fixed most and I had to fix some myself. I am not tearing up Keystone about it....they ALL (manufacturers) have issues. The unit I bought was head and shoulders above most I looked at. Whether it's daylight around slides, wood dust where the drawers don't fit, doors that are crooked, loose trim, handles that fall off, etc. etc.....oh wait, that was on the hundreds of units we chose NOT to buy (not Keystone).

The critical factor, as has been said many times, is the dealer. Before I bought my unit the owner of the dealership advised me that they took great care in delivering me a unit that I, and they, would be proud of.....and they did a super job. They gave me the checklist they had completed with faults found and we then proceeded to go thru the PDI from this forum and spent 3-4 more hours going thru stuff. I had the lead tech that did the original PDI. They were proud of their work, proud of the unit they were selling me and wanted to show it off. That is not normal it appears....and no, there we no "charges" or implication of them in any way for the PDIs. I even took a video of the walk through.

The next problem is the buyer. They expect to look around, find something that looks cool, sign a contract like buying a Lexus, pick it up and go have fun...no issues whatsoever (like buying a Lexus). That is not the RV world. Every manufacturer sends their units out expecting that the dealer is going to "clean up". Some dealers do, some don't. The failure of the buyer to understand this process by not doing due diligence is not the manufacturer's fault. Everyone loves to point the finger at "someone" for things gone wrong and many, if not most, refuse to accept ownership of failures of their own. Between the dealer and owners you can pinpoint about 80% of the "can you believe they did that" moments owners scream about.

Comparing buying an RV to a car, truck or house just isn't real life. Why? I don't know; that's just the way it is and what we accept. In doing that, we, as buyers, have to step up and take the steps required to make sure our purchase turns out to be what we wanted it to be.

[Ken / Claudia]

I understand taking the RV into the dealer. As I did they photo'ed the problems wrote it up in an hour or so and I left with the RV so, I could use it until the fix's were approved and parts came in. Better in my driveway than at the dealers lot. Yea it cost me more time and trips but, like I said I got to use it. Or, I could have let it sit at the dealers lot for 3 weeks. I just cannot see leaving it there and say it sat there for 9 months out of the year waiting for parts and repairs. Again only if the problems where safety issues.

[x96mnn]

To the OP, post who your dealer is, help others avoid a poor dealer!

Why would Keystone let a rig go out with a leaking toilet? They are not going to check for that at the factory! Why? They pay the dealer to do that when they take delivery!

The industry has two problems in my humble opinion which they do own responsibility for!

1: the delivery method is flawed in a sense that most of our units were hauled 1000+ miles outside their manufacturing specifications. These units are hauled in a mad dash format at 80+ mph regardless of condition and roads. This the items falling off, cracked and broken when they arrive.

2: Factory pays the dealer to do a complete inspection of the unit to look for damage. This is the major quality and in some cases only check point the manufacturer has. If done properly issue 1 would not be as large of a problem, although still a problem as damage is being done you can't see in a PDI. Many dealers do not do it, plus they charge the user for a PDI that they agin do nothing for.

Manufacturer knows this is going on, it is easier to turn a blind eye to it then fix it. I do not feel the blame the guys get who are building them is as warranted. Not saying there is not any issues there but do not feel they are the primary issue.

[chuckster57]

I would like to clear up a misconception. dealerships DO NOT get paid by the factory for a PDI. The only maker that we currently get paid for a PDI is Tiffen motor homes and then only on a direct factory delivery.

[x96mnn]

I would like to clear up a misconception. dealerships DO NOT get paid by the factory for a PDI. The only maker that we currently get paid for a PDI is Tiffen motor homes and then only on a direct factory delivery.

Chuck,

I cannot confirm if what I am told is fact or not, I do not work in the business! I did spend a flight from jfk to Toronto with a Forrest River rep who stated they provided a rebate to the dealer between $800 and $1200 US for a complete PDI. When I bought my Keystone product they had me sign a form that listed the PDI and what had been check, they stated they provide that to Keystone so they can be reimbursed for the PDI.

[Javi]

I would like to clear up a misconception. dealerships DO NOT get paid by the factory for a PDI. The only maker that we currently get paid for a PDI is Tiffen motor homes and then only on a direct factory delivery.

I guess things change... We were paid 8 hours for make ready of every new trailer sold, plus a hold back for sales volume.

Even if not paid for PDI in todays world, it is the seller's responsibility to make the trailer ready for the customer by inspecting and repairing anything that is not in working order and delivering a NEW trailer in New condition with everything in working order..

If a dealer want to cut corners, ignore problems and deliver product in less than complete working order then they do not need to be in the business.... Manufacturers used to police dealers and weed out those who underperformed... I guess that pretty much went down the tubes with the boom in sales...

But now that the oilfield has tanked and the economy is throttling spending maybe the manufacturers will get back on track as dealers get stuck with thousands of trailers..

[chuckster57]

I did talk to our warranty person this morning before posting to confirm. He did say that Keystone does not pay for a PDI, but will pay for any repairs found during the PDI, IF we can prove the defect is on the factory.

when units are delivered from the factory, they are inspected for any cosmetic and obvious mechanical issues. these issues are documented on the DAF (dealer acceptance form) and a copy is sent to the factory. At that point depending on the dealer the PDI is performed before the customer takes delivery. Some do them before they hit the sales lot, others after they are sold. The PDI is commonly part of the sales contract, and that's where the dealer can do right or wrong by the customer, I have worked at both ends of the spectrum.

Javi: yes times have changed and they are still changing. It's getting more and more difficult to prove factory defect vs. "lot rot" or customer damage. And if an issue isn't noted on the DAF and shows up during the PDI, it's again a battle to prove it came from the factory that way.

[mark1228]

good luck...:wlcm:

as a note.... everything except the carpet is a dealer PDI issue... Thor, and nearly everyone else pay their dealers to inspect and repair these items before the sale to the end user... Blame the dealer... probably for the pop rivets too..

Again, I am a dealer and this is incorrect. NO factory pays the dealer for PDI.

[mark1228]

Chuck,

I cannot confirm if what I am told is fact or not, I do not work in the business! I did spend a flight from jfk to Toronto with a Forrest River rep who stated they provided a rebate to the dealer between $800 and $1200 US for a complete PDI. When I bought my Keystone product they had me sign a form that listed the PDI and what had been check, they stated they provide that to Keystone so they can be reimbursed for the PDI.

That is no true. I sell Keystone, Forest River and several other company's RV's and none of them pay for the PDI in any shape or form. There is no rebate. The dealer pays the pdi expense which really means the retail owner pays it in their final out the door price.

[JRTJH]

That is no true. I sell Keystone, Forest River and several other company's RV's and none of them pay for the PDI in any shape or form. There is no rebate. The dealer pays the pdi expense which really means the retail owner pays it in their final out the door price.

As others have stated, my dealer told me he has a "fund supplied by Keystone" that he uses to get the trailer ready for sale. Whether that is true or not, I have never audited his books and don't imagine he would allow that, even if I wanted "proof"..... Honestly, what difference would it make?

Really, when you get right down to the "bottom line," the customer pays the PDI charges whether or not Keystone reimburses the dealer. Either way, whether "Keystone says they foot the bill" or "the dealer says he foots the bill" in the end, it's the buyer that "foots the bill"... Whether it's listed as a separate line item and "charged to the buyer" or if it's not even discussed (and doesn't appear on the bill of sale), neither Keystone nor the dealer is going to "give" the customer anything. If there's a "gift" involved, somewhere in the exchange of money, the expense of that "gift" goes from the buyer to the dealer, it doesn't much matter whether it's listed as a line item or is omitted from the sales contract, it's accounted for "somewhere" .....

[Javi]

That is no true. I sell Keystone, Forest River and several other company's RV's and none of them pay for the PDI in any shape or form. There is no rebate. The dealer pays the pdi expense which really means the retail owner pays it in their final out the door price.
If that is true, then many dealers ar stealing from their customers by charging for and not delivering trailers in proper working order. Hopefully you aren't one of those dealers.

[dfb]

Again, I am a dealer and this is incorrect. NO factory pays the dealer for PDI.

No, it's included in the price so the buyer pays it. But the factory does pay for warranty work.. So far over 2000 in warranty. Paint, awning, black wTer handle, refer doors, . I told the dealer to get that crap thetford toilet out and put in a dometic... I PAID FOR THAT,...no more toilet problems!

[BSHGTO]

One should not have to grease the toilet seal to make it work. I took my toilet out and put in the Dometic. This will all change when the Japanese sees enough money in building campers. Then what will I do with the flag I hang on the back by my Japanese generators?

[mark1228]

Responsible dealerships do just what you indicate. Unfortunately, there are some dealerships that simply don't. They, I believe, are the ones that most of the "horror stories" or "persistent complaints" come from. We've had reports from "angry purchasers" about Keystone's negligence, when more times than not, it's the dealership completely falling on their face when it comes to doing what is expected "before the sale".... Here's some examples:

1) My refrigerator wasn't working. Fix: Plugged it in.
2) My air conditioner wouldn't run. Fix: Attached thermostat wires inside the A/C.
3) Sink drain leaks. Fix: connected the sink drain, the plumbing was not connected.
4) No hot water. Fix: Turned the winterization valve to get water into the W/H, installed the anode rod and filled the water heater.
5) Awning would not extend. Fix: Connected wires to back of switch at control panel.
6) Kitchen flooded when I turned on the water pump. Fix: Connected the hot AND cold water supply lines to the faucet. Both were not connected.
7) No hot water at kitchen sink. Fix: Repaired kinked supply line.
8) No brakes. Fix: Wiring at all 4 wheels was not connected.
9) Microwave won't work. Fix: Removed from mount and plugged it in.

The list goes on and on. Every one of these is a "red flag" and begs the question: Did the dealer even unlock the door before delivery?" They all "should have" been identified by and corrected by the dealer BEFORE delivery. It speaks volumes when a new member posts here that he has problems like these and his dealer says, "Keystone won't approve the repair." They are angry and warn us, who already own Keystone products, that we should not buy a Keystone because they won't stand behind their product. Really ??? Their dealership fails them, they blame Keystone and tell us we're "somehow at fault" because we bought defective products from an irresponsible company (which just happens to be the biggest manufacturer of RV's in America) ???

I think (just my opinion) that there are issues at the factory, issues at the dealership and yes, issues with the consumer. When I read a "first time post" about how terrible Keystone is, 9 times out of 10, as I get deeper into the complaint, it becomes obvious that the dealership didn't do a PDI, or just a superficial "plug it in and turn on the TV, show the new owner the bells and whistles PDI" and sent him on his way.

There are quality dealerships, places where the customer's satisfaction is "the most important aspect" of the business. I've seldom read about issues with these dealerships and I think that's what drives the "over 90% satisfaction rate" on the "ancient poll" about Keystone satisfaction that was done on this forum back in 2011-2012. http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3015&highlight=poll

Sure, Keystone builds trailers with problems. In the above list of issues, the problem in some situations, "originated" with Keystone (on the assembly line), while others are a direct result of the dealership not servicing the unit before delivery. Every manufacturer has "issues" with less than perfection. The "rub" (I think) comes from a dealer "short-cutting" the repair or a customer wanting "something fixed now" which leads to a "bandaid fix" rather than fixing it correctly. In many of those situations, Keystone isn't even involved, yet "they're the bad guy" because their name is on the trailer..... Too often, we forget there's another name on it, usually under a tail light and/or by the main door. It's the dealer's logo. In almost every situation, they have a bigger stake in the customer's continued satisfaction than Keystone ever will......

I totally agree with you the dealer should have caught all that, however don't excuse the RV manufacturer for shipping your unit with that list of problems because in my view that is inexcusable.

[mark1228]

No, it's included in the price so the buyer pays it. But the factory does pay for warranty work.. So far over 2000 in warranty. Paint, awning, black wTer handle, refer doors, . I told the dealer to get that crap thetford toilet out and put in a dometic... I PAID FOR THAT,...no more toilet problems!


Exactly. And of interest I just had a customer pay us to remove a Dometic toilet and put in a Thetford!