Nitrogen??

[gearhead]

Anyone filled their tires with N2? I think I understand that it is more temperature stable, but what do you so if you need a tire serviced while on the road? Fill with air and then get N2 later? Who has N2 in a tire store? I've never seen it, but I haven't asked either.

[chuckster57]

I think the chain "Americas tire store" has it, but you have to request it. I have seen some brands come from the factory with nitrogen filled tires. The green cap on the valve stem identifies it.

The earths atmosphere is roughly 80% nitrogen, so the argument about benefits is one of those subjects that cause long discussions/debates.

In the racing field, I can see it as a benefit, for everyday driving/towing I personally don't see the "need" for it.

[JRTJH]

There have been a number of threads on the forum about the benefits/non-benefits of using nitrogen in RV tires. I can't remember any thread that had any conclusive evidence that actually demonstrated any advantage that was cost effective or that substantially improved performance, safety or durability of the tires. ST tires are essentially "low tech" tires. I could see using nitrogen in "high performance aircraft", "dragsters" (where explosions could occur), and in "racing environments" where consistent high speed applications would be expected. In a 65 MPH trailer application, I can't see where the "extra 20% nitrogen" would be beneficial. Of course, if you really want to, who's to say you shouldn't spend your money any way you like......

Trailer Life did an article on RV tires some time back. Here is their direct quote on the subject:

"Nitrogen Inflation Green tire-valve caps denote the tires were inflated with nitrogen instead of atmospheric air. Nitrogen has some limited advantages over air, although no tire manufacturer requires the use of nitrogen. Atmospheric air contains about 79 percent nitrogen, and it’s impractical to inflate tires with 100 percent pure nitrogen, because the tire contains some air even when deflated. Therefore, if your vehicle’s tires have nitrogen in them, leave it in. Never run with lower pressure than needed due to an unavailability of nitrogen; use air to maintain pressure, if that’s what is available."

You can access the entire article here: http://www.trailerlife.com/trailer-how-to/trailer-tech/rv-tires-101/

[GaryWT]

My understanding is the psi is more consistent as the tire heats and the tires last longer than ones filled with air. You can add air to them but it lowers the benefits over time.

[bsmith0404]

Research I have done seems to be pretty consistent on the subject, nitrogen is dryer, is affected less by temp changes, and bleeds through the rubber less than oxygen. How much difference does it make over regular atmospheric air that is 79% nitrogen?

Here's my thoughts, first to be done properly, nitrogen filled tires must be purged several times to remove as much of the oxygen and moisture from the tire as possible to get the level of pure nitrogen as high as possible in order to see the maximum effect. The machines that most tire shops use do this automatically, but it comes at a price.
I have thought about doing it with my RV tires, but decided not to for one reason. Nitrogen is more stable than regular air, but it still changes with temps. Considering the fact that I could be towing in January where cold pressure temps could be in the 30s, or I could be towing in July when col pressure temps could be in the 100s, it's obvious that the cold pressures would be different and require adjustment. Do I really want to go to a tire shop with a nitrogen system in order to adjust my cold pressures? I did find nitrogen tire inflation kits for around $300, but you still need to find a place to fill the tank. Cost vs benefit just isn't there in my opinion.

[Hideout17]

As said before in racing i used it because it didn't build as much air pressure when tires got hot as regular air does. A drier system like body shops use could do similar. The cost of nitrogen and the BS that goes with it is just that BS. If you do fill your tires with nitrogen regular air can be used to top them off.

[denverpilot]

Research I have done seems to be pretty consistent on the subject, nitrogen is dryer, is affected less by temp changes, and bleeds through the rubber less than oxygen.


I love that "bleeds through the rubber" thing about O2. Here's why.

If I fill the tire with regular air and much of the O2 "bleeds out" what do I have left? N.

Put in a little bit more regular air, a little bit more O goes in with it.

It "bleeds out". Now I have even more total N.

After about what? Say four regular air fills I should be getting close to 100% N anyway, for free!!

Hehhehe. Or: Not enough O2 "bleeds" anywhere to actually make a considerable difference.

Can't really have it both ways.

Science!

Tell me how much O2 "bleeds out" over how much time and anyone can write the fractions math to tell you how many refills it'll take of regular air to get to 100% N in the tire, turned O2 sieve.

Next step is to calculate how much money you'll save by just waiting for the tire to do all the work for you! ;) ;) ;)

Therefore, my usual advice: If you can do N fills for free, go for it. If not, don't bother. :)

[notanlines]

Denver has made a believer out of me. We'll just tell people we have the "regular" nitrogen fill (80%) not the "premium" nitrogen fill (100%).

[PerryB]

I think nitrogen came into use in aircraft that experience large temperature swings in their operating environments. Think of a commercial airliner that leaves Texas and lands in Michigan. How much more temperature stable is it? I don't know. I don't see it having any real advantages in most daily applications though.

[Desert185]

http://www.nitrogentiremachine.com/federal_aviation_administration.htm

The use of nitrogen also reduces degradation of the casing and oxidation of the wheel due to exposure to oxygen, but the reality is that N2 is not practical for our purposes.

[Bigg-limo]

I filled my tires on my Fuzion with nitrogen before I picked it up. In the three years that I've owned it,...I've never had to "add air" to it. Didn't matter whether it was 25* in the winter,...or 115* in the summer. It was always the same. Over the years since,....I've read post after post about how it was or is a rip off. My experience has been different.

[denverpilot]

I think nitrogen came into use in aircraft that experience large temperature swings in their operating environments. Think of a commercial airliner that leaves Texas and lands in Michigan. How much more temperature stable is it? I don't know. I don't see it having any real advantages in most daily applications though.


In aircraft there are two reasons...

The temperature swings you mentioned, and they're way bigger than just going city to city... Think about what temperature a wheel well is at 38,000 feet above sea level...

And moisture content. Most of the N fills on aircraft are also very sure the N is very very dry. An ice chunk that has adhered to the inside wall of a tire that goes from 0 to over 100 mph in the blink of an eye, is a heck of a balance problem.

Many aircraft also have special tires with "chines" or extensions that stick out and help deflect foreign objects that get thrown up off of a runway, away from the aircraft. The most commonly seen aircraft most people have seen with them, would probably be the LearJet.

Tossing trash from the runway into those low mounted twin engines on the fuselage near the tail during a takeoff from a slightly fouled runway (water, ice chunks, rocks, whatever) could make for a "bad day" at departure time.

Having a tire expand to the point where it gets "stuck" in a wheel well could also be a "bad day" when it comes time to drop the gear to land. Usually that's handled by strict pressure limits when filling them. (Very rare to see the equivalent of TPM on aircraft.) And careful engineering design to allow for expansion at very high altitudes -- where you probably wouldn't be dropping the gear anyway.

(But you might. Read up on what actually must happen after a decompression at high altitude. All that nice talk about calmy putting the yellow mask over your mouth and nose doesn't really describe the screaming descent at barber pole that needs to occur... some aircraft call for tossing the gear out to add to the drag on the way down. All depends on the airplane but it isn't going to be a calm ride down... Gotta get the airplane below 12,000 or so, and usually to 10,000 so everyone can breathe again... The folks in the cockpit get a nice pressure mask to accomplish that dive...)

So anyway... I don't think N is really worth it in stuff that's just tooling down the highway -- and is not hanging out at lower pressures and lower temperatures similar to say, what one would find on the way up Mt Everest ...

But I won't argue too hard with someone h***-bent on putting N into road tires. It's their money. I've spent money on much dumber things. :)

It just isn't for the same reasons, is all. ;)

[gkainz]

I switched all my tires to helium. I gained 500 lbs of CCW on the truck and 800 lbs on the 5er.


:D

The only thing I have to really be careful with is when my fuel tank gets down below 1/4 tank, I have to get help with tiedowns so the truck doesn't float away.


Personally, I ask for the 80% Nitrogen mix at the tire shops, too.

[CWtheMan]

Some references.

http://www.firestonecompleteautocare.com/cf/tires/nitrogen-in-tires/

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2007/10/tires-nitrogen-air-loss-study/index.htm

https://powertank.com/truth.or.hype/

I worked in Naval Aviation for more than 40 years (31 active & 10 civilian). Using 100% nitrogen in our tires wasn't a choice, it was a regulation. My rating included tires, wheels, landing gear and pneumatics.

[PerryB]

Those are some interesting links. The last one pretty well sums it up. The only real advantage to nitrogen is it doesn't support combustion, and THATS why its used in aircraft tires. Well, heavy commercial and military anyway. I don't think I'm going to worry about it.

[Pmedic4]

Those are some interesting links. The last one pretty well sums it up. The only real advantage to nitrogen is it doesn't support combustion, and THATS why its used in aircraft tires. Well, heavy commercial and military anyway. I don't think I'm going to worry about it.

Seems like the biggest advantage is likely more money to the installer. I'd seen some dealer markups for as much as $120 for 4 tires. If your really interested, you can get a small cylinder of nitrogen for about $15 (plus cylinder rental), which will probably fill about 40 tires.

I was surprised, the second article mentioned Nitrogen was an inert gas, and that's not true, there are many compounds of nitrogen, and common to Diesel engines is nitrogen oxides, and why DEF is used, but all vehicle emit NO(x) gases. One of my 'favorite' nitrogen compounds was nitrogen triiodide, which is even more reactive than nitroglycerin, so it was fun to make small amounts and place on filter paper and explode with a yardstick - releasing a cloud of purple iodine smoke.

[PerryB]

Nitrogen triiodide you say? Sounds like fun. I'll have to put my 16 year old on to that, he's our resident pyro. We have a thousand acres out in the sticks and have a lot of fun making things go boom. We've dispatched a number of old microwaves and mini-fridges with a few pounds of Tannerite.

[msp2jxr]

It was explained to me the only time nitrogen is a real benefit is when the nitrogen is vacuumed into the tire and you have pure nitrogen. The shops I have seen adding nitrogen do not VACUME the nitrogen into the tire so you still have air in the tire which really defeats most of the purpose. It is really an advertising gimmick to sell trailers or cars. Jay

[Steve S]

I use nitrogen in my Audi 7 as it has low profile tires and it makes a world of difference! I rarely check the pressure as it's always the same and I need it to be the same as the last thing that I need is a tire to blow at 200 kms while throwing it into a corner"bouncey:
My tire guy is on the fence about nitrogen in my work truck as he figures that there's no need for it.
As for a trailer I think it's a great idea as nitrogen keeps all 4 tires at a constant pressure and you're less likely to have a blowout.
I think that I pay an extra $25.00 per tire for nitrogen and that's pretty cheap when it comes to safety:)

[Desert185]

I use nitrogen in my Audi 7 as it has low profile tires and it makes a world of difference! I rarely check the pressure as it's always the same and I need it to be the same as the last thing that I need is a tire to blow at 200 kms while throwing it into a corner"bouncey:
My tire guy is on the fence about nitrogen in my work truck as he figures that there's no need for it.
As for a trailer I think it's a great idea as nitrogen keeps all 4 tires at a constant pressure and you're less likely to have a blowout.
I think that I pay an extra $25.00 per tire for nitrogen and that's pretty cheap when it comes to safety:)

"200 kms while throwing it into a corner" and "safety" with a :thumbsup: on N2 in tires for $25/per. :rofl:

Sorry. I was overcome.

[Steve S]

"200 kms while throwing it into a corner" and "safety" with a :thumbsup: on N2 in tires for $25/per. :rofl:

Sorry. I was overcome.

I think that the speed limit is 120 and on some of Coquihalla Highway it's 140. I just go a little over it as that car really loves the speed and the rpms"bouncey: I'm running 90% nitrogen and 10% air and that seems to work well with the tires.
As for nitrogen for the trailer I'd definitely do it as there's no built in ABS, temp gauge nor air pressure sensors like found on a car.
For safety, tire wear and blowouts nitrogen is a pretty cheap way to go"bouncey:

[Desert185]

I run 78% N2, 21% O2 and 1% whatever. A little electricity and mechanicals to compress and in it goes. I drive/ride/fly the local Sierra Nevada with gusto without busto. So far, so good. :thumbsup:

[PerryB]

No busto. I love it!! I've been at it for 37 years and no busto yet. Doesn't mean it's not going to happen. ....
My biggest problem is that as I get older I get bolder!

[Bob Landry]

It's pretty much a solution looking for a problem. Also, if your tires are correctly aired when cold, the pressure stability argument is weak at best as the tire manufacturers recommended pressures account for the pressure increases when the tire heats up.

[PerryB]

Bob , I'd love to argue with you, but first you'd have to be wrong.

[Steve S]

It's pretty much a solution looking for a problem. Also, if your tires are correctly aired when cold, the pressure stability argument is weak at best as the tire manufacturers recommended pressures account for the pressure increases when the tire heats up.

With nitrogen your pressure stays the same hot or cold and that's the whole purpose of using it. It's fail safe and as I stated with a trailer you have no idea what the pressure is while towing as it'll go up and down as you drive which will cause tire wear and blow outs:eek:
Try it and see if you haven't already"bouncey:

[notanlines]

I have followed the nitrogen/air argument for years. I have stayed with common air from our compressor, but it still interests me. This website has a fairly good comparison/tests and is worth a read, although a little long.
https://powertank.com/truth.or.hype/
I am reprinting their conclusion here.
"Conclusion of High Pressure Gas Test:
At the higher tire pressure commonly seen in RV tires we took the gases through a temperature range of 154ºF (-20ºF up to 134ºF). Our start pressure was 80 PSI @ -20ºF and over the 154ºF temperature increase we saw the gas pressures all increase virtually the same amount to within 2 PSI of each other. In the end, the N2 and "air" test samples topped at 108 PSI while the CO2 sample topped out at 110 PSI. Note that the pressure changes that we saw in our bottles are the same as what you'd experience in your big RV tires despite the difference in volume. What does this mean? No matter which of these gases is in your RV tires, your handling, performance and tire wear will be the same."

[Desert185]

I have followed the nitrogen/air argument for years. I have stayed with common air from our compressor, but it still interests me. This website has a fairly good comparison/tests and is worth a read, although a little long.
https://powertank.com/truth.or.hype/
I am reprinting their conclusion here.
"Conclusion of High Pressure Gas Test:
At the higher tire pressure commonly seen in RV tires we took the gases through a temperature range of 154ºF (-20ºF up to 134ºF). Our start pressure was 80 PSI @ -20ºF and over the 154ºF temperature increase we saw the gas pressures all increase virtually the same amount to within 2 PSI of each other. In the end, the N2 and "air" test samples topped at 108 PSI while the CO2 sample topped out at 110 PSI. Note that the pressure changes that we saw in our bottles are the same as what you'd experience in your big RV tires despite the difference in volume. What does this mean? No matter which of these gases is in your RV tires, your handling, performance and tire wear will be the same."

Thank you. Besides, those green valve stem caps are major ugly. :p

[Hideout17]

With nitrogen your pressure stays the same hot or cold and that's the whole purpose of using it. It's fail safe and as I stated with a trailer you have no idea what the pressure is while towing as it'll go up and down as you drive which will cause tire wear and blow outs:eek:
Try it and see if you haven't already"bouncey:

No it doesn't. That's a major myth to sell it. It builds pressure and drops pressure just like the stuff out of the had station air hose....just not as much. I worked in a dealer that sold it and when the cold came had to top off air. The machine manual said and I quote "in colder weather bump air pressure 2 to 4 lbs to prevent tpms lite from coming on..." same thing we did with the free stuff. On race cars the air pressure builds as tire temp goes up too....

[Hideout17]

I run 78% N2, 21% O2 and 1% whatever. A little electricity and mechanicals to compress and in it goes. I drive/ride/fly the local Sierra Nevada with gusto without busto. So far, so good. :thumbsup:

Me too and I haven't had any issues from it either.....

[Steve S]

No it doesn't. That's a major myth to sell it. It builds pressure and drops pressure just like the stuff out of the had station air hose....just not as much. I worked in a dealer that sold it and when the cold came had to top off air. The machine manual said and I quote "in colder weather bump air pressure 2 to 4 lbs to prevent tpms lite from coming on..." same thing we did with the free stuff. On race cars the air pressure builds as tire temp goes up too....

With the A 7 I might gain a 1/4 lb while running it hard and the pressure stays the same with all the tires. If I just ran straight air the pressure on all 4 would be all over the map and that's not too safe in my mind:eek:
As for getting air from the local station you must keep in mind that they don't take care of their tanks and you'll end up with oil and water in your tires.
I've read the posts here and it seems that the experts are great at pulling up stats while surfing the interweb but the true experiences come from people that actually use nitrogen.
Like why take chances of having your tire pressure unequal on all 4 when you don't have to? Like I've said before it's cheap insurance"bouncey:

[Desert185]

Personally, I use my own air with a water separator/trap. Never from a station. No water or oil in my tires. To each his own. Eh?

[GMcKenzie]

I think that the speed limit is 120 and on some of Coquihalla Highway it's 140.

Nope. 120 Max. Not to say I haven't done 150, but it's 120 max.

The thing I don't get about Nitrogen, is the number of places that won't charge for it. I know it's a marketing gimmick, but Costco doesn't charge extra for it.

[SAABDOCTOR]

I want to see that audi go 200 kilometers per second without it being tossed from a c130.

[SUnderwood]

Those are some interesting links. The last one pretty well sums it up. The only real advantage to nitrogen is it doesn't support combustion, and THATS why its used in aircraft tires. Well, heavy commercial and military anyway. I don't think I'm going to worry about it.

lithium with decompose (burn) in a nitrogen atmosphere

[Steve S]

I want to see that audi go 200 kilometers per second without it being tossed from a c130.


That didn't make any sense:rolleyes: Why would I chuck it out of a water bomber to go 200 kms? I bought it new, drove it for the break in period then send it to a sports shop and had them trick it out. The car is like a rocket that's built for speed. It's a great stress reliever"bouncey:
But staying on topic; you can talk to 10 different shops about nitrogen and you'll get 10 different answers. Nitrogen has great advantages in certain applications like my car but yet the same tire shop said that it's a waste of money to use it for my truck.
They only reason that I say it's great for a trailer is that all four tires will keep the same pressure as the air temp goes up and down.

[SAABDOCTOR]

WELL STEVE YOU CAN MONITOR TEMP AND PRESSURE IN YOUR TRAILER TIRES. I HAVE BEEN USING THE STUFF THE THAT WE BREATHE FOR YEAARS NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH IT. AND I AGREE WITH BOB. JUST MY 2 CENTS ... SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS I AINT YELLIN"bouncey:

[Steve S]

WELL STEVE YOU CAN MONITOR TEMP AND PRESSURE IN YOUR TRAILER TIRES. I HAVE BEEN USING THE STUFF THE THAT WE BREATHE FOR YEAARS NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH IT. AND I AGREE WITH BOB. JUST MY 2 CENTS ... SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS I AINT YELLIN"bouncey:

Yes I know this as I have the monitoring system on all 6 tires on my truck"bouncey:
Btw there's an edit button at the preview page:rolleyes::eek: