Dealer Responsibility

[bwright]

We are looking to upgrade to a fifth wheel and were looking at a Montana High Country last week. CW gaves us a great trade in on the TT and weighed the truck on the scales on the way to the dealer. Very disappointed in the fact that I would be overloaded with this Fifth Wheel.

My question is, how can these dealers tell you that you will be fine with the weight of the trailer with no regards to GVWR or pin weight? Is there not any responsibility or liability on their part? The salesman did everything within his power to convince me it was no problem.

Just happy that I passed the 6th grade in Alabama!

[gearhead]

Apparently there isn't any liability. Keystone was advertising the Montana HC as 3/4 ton towable. Ain't no way. And I told them.
Our 2014 305RL was advertised as 2175 pin weight. Add the bedroom A/C, 2 batteries, propane, washer/dryer, tools, chairs, grill, wife's 28 pair of shoes and I'm at 3,000#. Throw in the 5th hitch weight and I'm maxed out.
Thinking 2017 Ford dually.
And....good for you doing the research and turning the deal down.

[Festus2]

We are looking to upgrade to a fifth wheel and were looking at a Montana High Country last week. CW gaves us a great trade in on the TT and weighed the truck on the scales on the way to the dealer. Very disappointed in the fact that I would be overloaded with this Fifth Wheel.

My question is, how can these dealers tell you that you will be fine with the weight of the trailer with no regards to GVWR or pin weight? Is there not any responsibility or liability on their part? The salesman did everything within his power to convince me it was no problem.

Just happy that I passed the 6th grade in Alabama!

I think if you were to look at the sales agreement or whatever documents you signed at the time sale, you will find a statement in there somewhere that says something to the effect that it is the buyer's responsibility to ensure that the tow vehicle is capable of towing the purchased RV --- or words to that effect. I believe there is also another statement saying that the dealership is not responsible this.

I'll check my records and see if I can find the exact wording in the bill of sale.

[bwright]

I am sure that you are correct about the sales statement, but when the salesman gets three other employees to to tell you that they hook up 3/4 tons all week, how can that be responsible?

[Pull Toy]

"Truth in advertising?"

Report their claim of compatability to DMV and BBB if you are willing to sign a complaint. If you hadn't done the math, you'd have been liable, based on their "mis-statements!"

[Festus2]

My mistake. I've checked the sales agreement and can't find anything in there about tow vehicles. Thinking back , I seem to recall that I was advised - verbally - it was up to me to make sure that the TV was within its limit to safely tow the Cougar that we purchased.

[JRTJH]

Here is the "disclaimer" listed at the bottom of the Keystone.com webpage:

"Tow Vehicle: Caution. Owners of Keystone recreational vehicles are solely responsible for the selection and proper use of tow vehicles. All customers should consult with a motor vehicle manufacturer or their dealer concerning the purchase and use of suitable tow vehicles for Keystone products. Keystone disclaims any liability or damages suffered as a result of the selection, operation, use or misuse of tow vehicle. Keystone's limited warranty does not cover damage to the recreational vehicle or the tow vehicle as a result of the selection, operation, use or misuse of the tow vehicle."

It seems fairly clear that Keystone is not going to be "trapped" by the dealership's "sales misinformation"... With the last two trailers I've purchases, (2010 and 2013) I had to sign a document that Keystone and the dealership were not responsible for any issues resulting from tow vehicle incompatibility. I'm on the road right now and don't have a copy of the sales agreement handy, but it was worded similar to the disclaimer that's on the Keystone website.

[CWtheMan]

You know, RV trailers now have everything right up front about their total weight, published pin weight, total axle weight, tire size and recommended inflation pressures. Plus a cargo placard.

Tow vehicles also have similar placards and cargo information.

RV trailer dealers have no requirement to train their staff on tow vehicle specifications or capabilities.

Here is a snip from a NHTSA Q&A about RV weights. I'm sure it would also apply to truck capabilities.

The FMVSS have requirements for the manufacturer to use proper tires and rims for the gross axle weight rating (GAWR) and the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). The manufacturer may determine the GVWR by adding cargo capacity (if any) to the curb weight of the vehicle as manufactured. The wise consumer, before purchase, will determine if the vehicle has sufficient cargo capacity to carry the weight of water, additional equipment (such as televisions, and microwave ovens), and luggage. The manufacturer’s certification label must show the GVWR. The GVWR must not be exceeded by overloading the vehicle. There is little the government can do to assist a consumer who has purchased a vehicle that has insufficient cargo capacity for its intended use.

We often see these lessons learned the hard way.

[TomHaycraft]

My question is, how can these dealers tell you that you will be fine with the weight of the trailer with no regards to GVWR or pin weight? Is there not any responsibility or liability on their part? The salesman did everything within his power to convince me it was no problem.

Just happy that I passed the 6th grade in Alabama!
I agree with you, seems criminal. However, as soon as RV dealers take any responsibility, I can see our twisted system backing them into the corner with frivolous lawsuits. I guess for them, better they wash their hands of this and claim no responsibility ... regardless of how the trailers are advertised or what the salesmen tell us.

Buyer beware, do your homework.

[hankpage]

The first TT I purchased I was told before I signed on the dotted line http://keystonerv.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=251&pictureid=1172 that they were liable if they allowed me to tow it off the lot with the current TV I had because it was under sized. But they would deliver it to my home free of charge if I signed a waiver saying I did not tow it from their lot.
I upgraded my TV and all was fine. When I got my first fiver from them they checked the sticker on the door jamb along with my tires and said I was good to go. This was a small mom & pop dealer. When I bought my Cougar from the big national chain ;) They never even asked what I would be towing with .... but they did let me keep the pen. :cool:
What I'm trying to say is: Laws and the enforcement of them vary from state to state so it is "Buyer Beware" and a good thing YOU did your homework and kudos to your Alabama sixth grade math teacher.

[Tikitim]

The RV dealer will tell you just about anything to make that sale. The truck dealer will sell you the truck that you want for your current needs. It would be totally ludacrist for someone to go after the truck dealer because they went from a 21ft TT to 36 ft 5er without checking out all ratings, the dealer doesn't know what you will be doing with it in the future. Glad you did your grade six homework.

Gearhead, your wife only brings 28 pairs of shoes???

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[gearhead]

The RV dealer will tell you just about anything to make that sale. The truck dealer will sell you the truck that you want for your current needs. It would be totally ludacrist for someone to go after the truck dealer because they went from a 21ft TT to 36 ft 5er without checking out all ratings, the dealer doesn't know what you will be doing with it in the future. Glad you did your grade six homework.

Gearhead, your wife only brings 28 pairs of shoes???

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

The 28 pair of shoes is an old story from about 1978. We rented a pop-up to take to the hunting camp over Thanksgiving and the wife brought +/- 28 pair of shoes. You need that many shoes to sit around camp with the other girls??

She also learned how to make it rain in a pop-up. Close all ventilation and make a lot of pasta.

[mazboy123]

a rver friend and I just had this discussion....to us, the bottom line is get what you want, forget the GVWR issue and your 3/4 ton truck. take a look around you and you'll see that 75% of the trucks are 3/4 ton trucks.

the numbers are there but I would not lose any sleep over it and if the price is right buy the RV.

Just my opinion but that is the reality of it....if you worried about the numbers you'd see RVers driving F550 or F650s.

[mark1228]

We are looking to upgrade to a fifth wheel and were looking at a Montana High Country last week. CW gaves us a great trade in on the TT and weighed the truck on the scales on the way to the dealer. Very disappointed in the fact that I would be overloaded with this Fifth Wheel.

My question is, how can these dealers tell you that you will be fine with the weight of the trailer with no regards to GVWR or pin weight? Is there not any responsibility or liability on their part? The salesman did everything within his power to convince me it was no problem.

Just happy that I passed the 6th grade in Alabama!

Ok so help me understand your concern. Looking at Keystone's website on the High Country models, the heaviest one they show has an empty weight of just over 12000 lbs. The heaviest pin weight of any model on the website is under 2500 lbs.

You have a 2014 F250 with a 6.7L diesel. I don't know what cab configuration you have or axle ratio is in your truck but according to ford.com, the F250 6.7L with the lowest 5th wheel tow rating is 15900 lbs so it appears to me you would be well within your limits on any of the High Country models. What am I missing?

[gearhead]

^^^ I assumed he was looking at pin weight vs. the 3/4 load capacity. By the time he got the propane, batteries, and bedroom A/C he would likely be at, or close to, load capacity. That wouldn't include any personal stuff.
But that's just me assuming.
I also assume about 50% of 5th wheels on the road that are not dually are overloaded.

[bwright]

Gear head, you are correct, the dealer just wanted to focus on the max tow capacity which is no problem. The problem is the pin weight. I weighed the truck and it came in at 8020 lbs. with me in it and a full tank of gas. That leaves me only 1,980 lbs for the pin weight of the Fifth wheel fully loaded minus the wife.

[rhagfo]

We are looking to upgrade to a fifth wheel and were looking at a Montana High Country last week. CW gaves us a great trade in on the TT and weighed the truck on the scales on the way to the dealer. Very disappointed in the fact that I would be overloaded with this Fifth Wheel.

My question is, how can these dealers tell you that you will be fine with the weight of the trailer with no regards to GVWR or pin weight? Is there not any responsibility or liability on their part? The salesman did everything within his power to convince me it was no problem.

Just happy that I passed the 6th grade in Alabama!


Ok so help me understand your concern. Looking at Keystone's website on the High Country models, the heaviest one they show has an empty weight of just over 12000 lbs. The heaviest pin weight of any model on the website is under 2500 lbs.

You have a 2014 F250 with a 6.7L diesel. I don't know what cab configuration you have or axle ratio is in your truck but according to ford.com, the F250 6.7L with the lowest 5th wheel tow rating is 15900 lbs so it appears to me you would be well within your limits on any of the High Country models. What am I missing?

I am a little amazed also that you don't think you can carry that 5er? It's dry weight is only about 200# more than our current 5er and the GVWR of it is about 140# more, we carry 10,000 on our TV and do just fine and ours is a 2001. Most 3/4 tons are SRW one tons de-rated for registration or tax reasons.

I didn't stop at a scale before we bought ours, we just hooked up before signing the papers, and the TV did squat only about 1-1/4".

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_180708_0_ad18fe3dd903faf909c4e27801387243.jpg

[Pmedic4]

Well, I finally am upgrading my old truck in for a new RAM 2500. To fit with what everyone here is mentioning about the Dealer(s), being both the RV and the Tow Vehicle, when I signed the papers, I was handed a document with the truck that specifically gave the load capacity and also the towing capacity. Didn't get that with my older truck, but that was 9 years ago, so I'm would believe there is somewhat more emphasis being put on the vehicle capacities.

I had mentioned before, but noted some of the current 1500 (F-150) load capacity actually exceeds my old 2500, so there are some differences to be noted. I wasn't sure if the trucks are 'heavier duty', or just have 'adjusted' capacities???

[gearhead]

Looks don't count. Here's what a F350 with Montana HC 305RL looks like that is at or over max payload, depending on the shoe count:

[bsmith0404]

Gear head, you are correct, the dealer just wanted to focus on the max tow capacity which is no problem. The problem is the pin weight. I weighed the truck and it came in at 8020 lbs. with me in it and a full tank of gas. That leaves me only 1,980 lbs for the pin weight of the Fifth wheel fully loaded minus the wife.

Wow, that weighs in at about 800 lbs heavier than my 2011 Silverado 2500 weighed. That makes no sense that Ford would build a 250 that heavy with only a 10,000 GVWR. Are you sure you didn't have a load of bricks in the back that you forgot about?

[larry337]

Nope. That's how much them F250's weigh with a diesel. My 2010 went around 78-7900 everytime I weighed it. And it was an XLT without a lot of options. I'm curious to know if you have weighed your dually? Mine is a fully loaded Lariat and weighs 8660 empty, weighed it on a Cat scale at the local truck stop. Fords are heavier then Chevrolet as a rule.

[hankaye]

Howdy All;

Dealer Responsibility is an oxymoron ...

hankaye

[bwright]

Haha....no load of bricks in the back, just me and nothing else. However, I am about 20 lbs overweight. I could loose weight and add a few more pair of shoes!

[JRTJH]

Ok so help me understand your concern. Looking at Keystone's website on the High Country models, the heaviest one they show has an empty weight of just over 12000 lbs. The heaviest pin weight of any model on the website is under 2500 lbs.
You have a 2014 F250 with a 6.7L diesel. I don't know what cab configuration you have or axle ratio is in your truck but according to ford.com, the F250 6.7L with the lowest 5th wheel tow rating is 15900 lbs so it appears to me you would be well within your limits on any of the High Country models. What am I missing?

Mark,

You are comparing "apples to oranges" in your statement. The 2015 F250 comes in gas or diesel configuration and a number of option configurations. The MAXIMUM payload for the F250 is 3890 lbs (regular cab gas 4x2) while the crew cab (same configuration) is 3280. The diesel option increases the truck curb weight by 648 pounds and reduces that configuration payload by the same amount. So the payload for a "regular cab diesel" is 3242 pounds. Keep in mind that is for a "stripped down" XL model. Every option that Ford installs reduces the payload, so a Lariat model would have a payload around 800 pounds less than the XL model.

What does that mean to the "Lariat Crew Cab Short Bed owner"???? The average payload for a 2015 Lariat SB Crew Cab is around 1900-2400 pounds depending on the engine installed and the "luxury options" installed. From that payload, all passengers, cargo, weight of the hitch, any owner installed accessories must be deducted. So, the "real pinweight capability" can be less than 1000 pounds (depending on what the owner carries in his truck along with the fifth wheel).

Your statement that the F250 can "tow" up to 15900 lbs is correct, but it can't "carry" the pin weight of 2500 pounds with passengers and cargo. It will be "Overloaded"....

Why the "tow rating" is so high is to allow it to "tow" a bumper hitch load up to that weight (with appropriate hitch weight). The F250 simply can't carry the pin weight of anything larger than a "medium size light weight" fifth wheel.

I have the truck in question, a 2015 Lariat crew cab short bed diesel. I tow a 2014 Cougar XLite 27RKS with an advertised pin weight of 1230 pounds (per Keystone website). I am at my maximum payload by the time I load my wife (145 lbs), the dog (50 lbs) and the generator (50 lbs) along with an empty blue tank, the fifth wheel hitch and my "carry it in one hand" tool bag.

You are "correct" in stating that the F250 diesel is rated to "tow" 15900 lbs" and in a "bumper pull configuration" it is easily capable of performing that task. Where you "miss something" is in assuming that it can "also" carry the 20-25% pin weight of a fifth wheel weighing 15900 lbs. With a maximum payload less than 2000 pounds (in diesel configuration) the F250 simply can't tow even the smallest High Country model without being "over payload".

[SteveC7010]

I have the 2012 version of the F250: XLT, SuperCab, 6.7L Diesel, 4x4, Short Bed, 3.31 gearing. Tow ratings are nearly identical to the '14 and '15 models. The max pull in 5th wheel is 16,000# and the max payload is 1,919#. My Cougar's pin weight is 1,550 or so fully loaded. I have a Sherline scale and have weighed the pin several times since I got the trailer. The trailer's GVWR is about 11,965. I consider my rig to be maxed out even though I've got a few extra pounds to go before hitting the listed limits. It tows extremely well and gets about 14 mpg traveling through the Adirondacks.

2,500# pin weight is just plain out of the question for this truck.

[gearhead]

Cut & pasted from the Keystonerv.com site for Montana High Country 5th wheels:

"High Country's Helium Technology utilizes advanced materials and manufacturing technology to significantly reduce weight while maintaining all the features, comforts and luxury you expect in a Montana. Because Helium Technology saves you 1300-2500 pounds compared to typically equipped fifth wheels, you can reduce wear and tear on your tow vehicle, improve fuel economy and maximize the towability of your 3/4-ton truck."

They have no shame.

[bsmith0404]

Nope. That's how much them F250's weigh with a diesel. My 2010 went around 78-7900 everytime I weighed it. And it was an XLT without a lot of options. I'm curious to know if you have weighed your dually? Mine is a fully loaded Lariat and weighs 8660 empty, weighed it on a Cat scale at the local truck stop. Fords are heavier then Chevrolet as a rule.

Ran my dually through the scale at the local dump a few months back, don't have the slip in front of me, but if I remember correctly it came in at 9030. I had a tool box on it back then, which has now been removed, but everything that was in it is now in an equipment box that goes between the 5er hitch and tailgate. I didn't have the hitch in it and have added a 70 gal auxiliary fuel tank. I need to run it across a scale again when I have both tanks full. I'm probably getting close to 10k now.

[jsmith948]

Our 2011 F-250 XLT, 6.7 Diesel, 4x4 crew cab with 3.31 gears has a GVWR of 10,000# and a GCVWR of 23,500#. The truck weighs 7890# with me and the DW, the dog, the hitch and a full fuel tank.
On a recent trip, we scaled at 4640 front, 4880 rear, and 8000 trailer.
That is loaded for a 1wk+ trip full water tank and empty waste tanks.
4640+4880=9520. 9520-7890=1630 on the pin. Trailer GVWR is 10070.
8000+1630=9630. So, we can pull our "Half Ton Towable" 282RESWE Cougar but we don't have a lot of reserve. Coulda - Woulda - Shouda - a 1ton SRW would have been a smarter choice. But we're under the limits and I like the 13.5 to 14mpg we get towing with the 3.31 gears.
BTW, when we visited the Quartzsite RV show, we were kicking tires and looking at a Montana 3750FL. Salesman asked us if we liked the trailer. We said "Yes but we couldn't pull it" He asked about our TV and then assured us that we "could easily pull ANY trailer on the lot"! :p

[dcg9381]

My question is, how can these dealers tell you that you will be fine with the weight of the trailer with no regards to GVWR or pin weight? Is there not any responsibility or liability on their part? The salesman did everything within his power to convince me it was no problem.

Same thing here. Do I need a different license? No.
3/4 ton towable? Absolutely.

Both things were false.. And I knew that going in. They are there to sell units, not give technical advice. Their own drivers don't even have the right license to transport many of the heavier 5th wheels in my state.

It's not unique to the RV industry. It's a sales thing.

[C130]

As I've said before, if the dealers made sure the buyers had tow vehicles within the tow limits before selling them their new RV, most would be out of business. All most sales guys want to do is make a sale, feed their family, and that's it. I know there are lots of great sales people that know their product and want to educate the consumer but they are not that common from my experience.

The last two times we went out and looked at new toy haulers the sales guy knew little or nothing about the product they were trying to sell. It's frustrating to me and just shows me they don't care enough about their job to even do just a little reading on the product. We had one guy that acted like he was bothered just over having to get out in the heat and show us toy haulers and he couldn't answer one single question. I've always had the mindset if you're going to do something do it right. No matter what job someone has they should have pride and do it professionally.

[JRTJH]

... Salesman asked us if we liked the trailer. We said "Yes but we couldn't pull it" He asked about our TV and then assured us that we "could easily pull ANY trailer on the lot"! :p

Remember those old sayings???? If his lips are moving, he's lying..... and, Anything to close a sale...... Unfortunately, it seems far too many RV salesmen (and saleswomen) either don't understand the difference between GCWR, Max Trailer Weight and Payload or they just choose to ignore it. :(

[Barbell]

If the dealer intentionally lies to a buyer to make a sale and the buyer is injured or injures others, the dealer may be liable. However, look at what the dealer actually says; In answer to the question, will my truck pull this trailer? Virtually any diesel 3/4 ton truck will pull most any fifth wheel. Will my truck be able to stop with this trailer? With properly working and adjusted brakes on the truck and trailer, yes you will be able to stop. The question not asked is; will I as an inexperienced driver pulling a large trailer in congested traffic situations be safe? The honest answer would be probably not and that is true even if the tow vehicle is a White Freightliner or similar vehicle. The limiting factor is not so much the tow vehicle as it is the driver and his/her experience and ability. What the dealer should say in answer to the question is to ask what experience the driver has. He doesn't want to scare off a potential sale but maybe some buyers should be discouraged about buying a big rig.

[gearhead]

It's one thing to be out on the sales lot with a salesman lying to you. No one will be able to prove anything that was said.
It's another thing for Keystone to put it on their website.