towing heavy

[tomsws6]

Alright weight police... Im looking for input. We recently looked at a toy hauler and the numbers look pretty good. I have a 06 f350 6.0 with air bags.. Right now I put the golf cart in the bed and our 323bhs on the hitch. Im tired of loading and unloading it in the truck and we just want more room. We got a good price on a 2015 Voltage V 4000. My wife loves it and it fits the bill. We only have 2 planned trips this yr and its all on flat land and semi local.. (Delaware/MD/VA peninsula)... I plan on upgrading to a 4500/450 next yr after the house is built(also another reason for the larger trailer as we are staying in in for awhile). Iv wanted to put f450 leaf springs in the back for awhile now and Im upgrading my front rotors to cross drilled regardless. What do you think... I"v heard im ok and then iv heard I would never do that. I know its a personal decision but just gathering data before we sign the bottom line so to speak.

Hitch weight - 3280
dry weight - 14506

[chuckster57]

I'm NOT the weight police, but I am a retired LEO.

I'm not here to tell you what you can and cannot do, in the end its your choice to endanger yourself, your family and anyone on the road with you. Now to some simple facts:

Air bags do NOTHING to increase your GVWR. Springs do NOTHING to increase your GVWR. Cross drilled rotors do NOTHING to increase your braking abilities.

In the end, your rear axle weight rating is the limiting factor, and the number on the drivers door trumps all. You stated your probably going to upgrade to a 4500/450 in a year. Why not wait until you have enough truck?

[tomsws6]

I'm NOT the weight police, but I am a retired LEO.

I'm not here to tell you what you can and cannot do, in the end its your choice to endanger yourself, your family and anyone on the road with you. Now to some simple facts:

Air bags do NOTHING to increase your GVWR. Springs do NOTHING to increase your GVWR. Cross drilled rotors do NOTHING to increase your braking abilities.

In the end, your rear axle weight rating is the limiting factor, and the number on the drivers door trumps all. You stated your probably going to upgrade to a 4500/450 in a year. Why not wait until you have enough truck?


No worries, like I said Im here for input... And correct me if Im wrong but crossdrilled rotors do increase breaking abilities and fading? The main reason we are upgrading is we are living in our camper now and unfortunately will be for another 6-8 months until our house gets built. So we are looking for more room and after the house is built we will travel a little more with the golf cart in the trailer.

[chuckster57]

I have been wrenching (my own business) for a little over 40 yrs. And have yet to see any documented evidence that cross drilled rotors perform "better" than stock ones.

If your living in your trailer and it is going to be stationary while your house is being built, then the better option might be a delivery service. That way you can have your bigger house and get a bigger TV when your ready to start traveling again.

I'm sure there are people that will tell you drilled/slotted rotors are the way to go. I have lost count of the people who have had me install them, only to have me replace them with stock ones, at a shorter interval. And most of them don't tow.

[JRTJH]

The measurable amount of increased breaking achieved by cross drilled rotors can not be adequately demonstrated nor assured in any specific vehicle application because of varied associated components such as brake pads, calipers, master cylinder, brake fluid and other components at affect the overall breaking. The "best guess" is that it is "somewhat improved" but even then, there is no certification process to increase the GVW/breaking certifications/towing certifications based on any "user modification". There is a certification process to "build a bigger vehicle" but that process is costly and difficult to achieve. Usually, it's much cheaper to simply buy a bigger vehicle than to try to build one and have it certified. Without certification, you're hanging your future on the legal bet that nothing happens and nobody gets hurt. For most of us, it's simply not worth the risk.

Recently we had a thread asking that very question. You can find here: http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=21634

The title of that thread is: "Should We Advocate Towing Overloaded ???" and the overwhelming consensus of the forum responders was, NO we should not advocate towing overloaded.

So, I don't think you'll find the majority of the forum members suggesting that you "go for it" and I would urge you not to find solace in the one who says, "Sure, what the hell"......

If the numbers don't add up to being safe and if you're asking some "stranger on a forum" for advice on how to do it, then it's pretty clear that you already know the answer to your question.

What color new truck do you want?

Good Luck,

[tomsws6]

I appreciate the response.. I really do. That is why I posted on here and honetsly Im not sure I would have much of an issue hauling it from the dealer to my house 10 miles away, hitting the cat scale on the way. Never say never though... I posted on here because there is so much info on the net, and of course its all true, but wanted to see how close I am or if anyone else has any experience with this kind of truck and weight.. Im actually checking out those other links now, and theres alot of good reading there.. So what would be the limit of my truck?

[Festus2]

As was pointed out by chuckster57, the addition of air bags, heavier leaf springs and a change of rotors from one type to another won't do anything to increase your truck's payload/capacity. The bags and springs may result in the rig sitting more level and provide a better ride but that's it.

Since you didn't provide much in the way of numbers, what numbers did you use that would make this possible set up "look pretty good". I would be interested in seeing what numbers you used in your calculations and how you "did the math" to arrive at that conclusion. Remember "it's the number on the driver's door that trumps all".
(The dry weight figure that I got from the Dutchmen website was 15104 not 14506 but that's a minor point since that number isn't all that critical).

If it turns out that your truck is overloaded, which it might well be after we see some of the other important missing figures, then it doesn't make much difference if you are driving your rig over flat land or semi-local. Regardless of where you go, the distance driven and over whatever terrain, it still could be overloaded. An overloaded rig being driven 50 miles is no different than one being driven 500.

At this point, the numbers certainly don't look as good to me as they look to you.

[JRTJH]

I'd say the GVW from the driver's door pillar minus the actual weight of the truck as weighed at a CAT scale. That will give you your "real payload". Then from there, figure your passengers, cargo you'll add, hitch (if not in the truck when weighed). What's left is your max pin weight. After determining your max pin weight, you can use your owner's manual to determine the GCWR for your model based on engine and axle gearing. Subtract your truck weight (with all cargo and passengers) from the GCWR and you'll have your maximum trailer weight. Armed with the maximum pin weight and the maximum trailer weight, you can then start looking for trailers that are under those figures.

Keep in mind that there was a significantly reduced payload on Ford SuperDuty trucks from 1999 through about 2009 or 2010.

If you're looking to buy a larger truck next year, the suggestion made by Chuckster57 to have your new trailer delivered to your site, live in it while building your house and when you're ready, you'll know the weights of the trailer, just find a truck that exceeds those weights.

[tomsws6]

Since you didn't provide much in the way of numbers, what numbers did you use that would make this possible set up "look pretty good".

At this point, the numbers certainly don't look as good to me as they look to you.


Im sorry, what I meant by "look pretty good" was on the financial side.. :o And there is no argument from me about those mods increasing my capacity.. Its mainly for vehicle control which I believe is very important but I do agree on your other point about increasing... But you also said dry weight wasnt all that crucial??

[Desert185]

There are those who would argue that cross drilled rotors reduce the rotor's braking area or friction. If designed incorrectly, cracks can also emanate from the holes.

My opinion is that you'll spend the money and not recognize any perceptible difference in braking capability, but they look cool. :cool:

[JRTJH]

There are those who would argue that cross drilled rotors reduce the rotor's braking area or friction. If designed incorrectly, cracks can also emanate from the holes.

My opinion is that you'll spend the money and not recognize any perceptible difference in braking capability, but they look cool. :cool:

Just like the Brembo brakes on my Mustang. An extra $350 for the "fancy red" calipers. They look "cool" during the day (when the sun is shining on them or when parked and the spokes don't cover them, but at night, you can't see them, and on a wet road ???? Might as well just stick your foot out the door and stop "Flintstone style" :banghead:

For the most part, like you, I think it's a "plot to separate people from their money" more than it is any improvement in braking or safety.

[tomsws6]

There are those who would argue that cross drilled rotors reduce the rotor's braking area or friction. If designed incorrectly, cracks can also emanate from the holes.

My opinion is that you'll spend the money and not recognize any perceptible difference in braking capability, but they look cool. :cool:

Definitely looking for functionality and not looks!:) Theres a calculator on one of those website. http://rvtowcheck.com/rvtc_calculator.html will this be semi accurate?

[Festus2]

Im sorry, what I meant by "look pretty good" was on the financial side.. :o And there is no argument from me about those mods increasing my capacity.. Its mainly for vehicle control which I believe is very important but I do agree on your other point about increasing... But you also said dry weight wasnt all that crucial??

tomsws6
The numbers that you need in your calculations are:
GVW of the truck, GCW (the combined weight of the truck and RV); The GVW of the RV; and the hitch weight. The dry weight is not included in these calculations.

The shipping weight aka dry weight ,aka empty weight of the RV is its weight without any cargo/supplies, no propane, no battery, nothing in the tanks, etc. That is one of the main reasons why the dry weight isn't all that critical because you will always add propane, battery, etc. The dry weight is essentially for information only -- a very rough guideline.

The truck should be taken to a weigh scale loaded as if you were going camping: all passengers, tank of gas, cargo in the bed and in the truck.
The sticker on the post is the weight of the truck as it came from the factory - no options, one 150 lb passenger.

[Desert185]

Just like the Brembo brakes on my Mustang. An extra $350 for the "fancy red" calipers. They look "cool" during the day (when the sun is shining on them or when parked and the spokes don't cover them, but at night, you can't see them, and on a wet road ???? Might as well just stick your foot out the door and stop "Flintstone style" :banghead:

For the most part, like you, I think it's a "plot to separate people from their money" more than it is any improvement in braking or safety.

The difference realized is when you use bigger rotors, four or six piston calipers and convert rear drums to disc brakes like the Wilwoods (not drilled, but slotted fronts) on my El Camino. :thumbsup:

[Desert185]

Definitely looking for functionality and not looks!:) Theres a calculator on one of those website. http://rvtowcheck.com/rvtc_calculator.html will this be semi accurate?

Other than saying using the calculator is a good thing, I'll let others comment on weight and payload. :)

[tomsws6]

Very confusing...

Anyway heres what I found..

GCWR - 23500
GVWR - 11400
GVW - 6586

Im a slim:rolleyes: 220
hitch - 150?

Anyway the calculator says
Max 5th Wheel Towing = 16364

Still trying to figure max pin weight.. as it only gives me a % of 25.. Is that 25% of max tow weight? That seems a little high at 4091pds.
http://www.ford-trucks.com/specs/2006-2/2006-ford-f-250f-350-super-duty-specifications/

[JRTJH]

Is the vehicle weight you list your "scaled" weight or is that from the Ford specifications website? http://www.ford-trucks.com/specs/2006-2/2006-ford-f-250f-350-super-duty-specifications/

That site lists the weight of the F350 crewcab 6.5' bed 4x4 as 6586 (that is for the base XL truck with the 5.4L gas engine). The diesel engine adds significant weight as does the KR package. Your truck should be much closer to 7200-7300 pounds.

As for the percentage of total trailer weight to use as pin weight, if you divide the trailer dry pin weight by the total dry weight, that should give you a percentage. You can estimate that percentage will be pretty close as the trailer is loaded. Most of your "camping cargo" will be loaded on or forward of the axles (adding pin weight) and your "toys" behind the axle will offset that and usually bring the percentage back to close to the "shipping/dry pin percentage" (not to the actual pounds, but percentage).

[tomsws6]

I didnt think it could come in a 5.4.. Weird ,but yes that was off the site. And were did you see that it is only the 5.4? Not saying your wrong but its driving me nuts:banghead: that I cant find it on the page? lol btw I appreciate you guys staying up and learning me.

[JRTJH]

All of the documentation in that chart is for the "base model" truck with the engine listed at "standard" or "base model"

If you go to that figure 6586 and track left to the first column (F350 SRW), then go up 2 boxes (right above F250) you'll see the note "BASE CURB WEIGHT"

If you consider that every option adds weight, there's no way a XL crewcab 4x4 with mechanical transfer case, mechanical windows and no carpet/padding will weigh the same as a KR or Platinum with all the extra bells and whistles. Those options add weight, Ford is trying to advertise "maximums" so they use the "lightest truck" to show the "biggest payload" and the "best towing performance"

It's called "marketing" and really confuses most people who casually glance at the charts to get information. Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see. The only way to determine your payload is to weigh your truck with a full fuel tank, loaded as you'll travel and go to a CAT scale. get the "real weight" and subtract that from 11,400 lbs. That is IF you have the correct tires on the truck and nobody has "changed out wheels, shocks, brakes, bearings. All of those components (along with many others) make up the GVWR. Any subs for lighter duty components changes the 11,400. How much? Who knows, But bottom line, that chart is for the base model truck, not yours.

[denverpilot]

Some good advice here so far. I'll throw a real-world note in:

If you upgrade the truck to be well within the towing range an almost magical thing happens... Those air bags and goodies you've added to the other truck, you suddenly realize it's towing the load without need for any of that stuff.

I watched a coworker go through this epiphany with his setup years ago. He would fuss and mess and add things to his (underrated) truck and then one day he shows up with a dually, properly sized for his matching tastes in trailer size.

He keeps remarking after the first trips around town in the truck for his commute and regular driving that it sure seems "stiff" and he isn't enamored with the ride quality, etc.

Then three weeks later he hitches up for the first long trip with the trailer...

And Monday morning he's all bright eyed and babbling on about how he "barely notices the trailer is back there anymore!" and saying stuff like, "man, I should have done this a LONG time ago!", eye etc etc.

He had thousands and thousands in "upgrades" in that first truck and he truly enjoyed modding it. His time put in, in changing things, and messing with it, wasn't small. And he still complained that the truck payments on the new one were a little painful at times.

But I don't think you could pay him to tow overloaded ever again. He'd downsize the trailer before he'd go back to it. You'll never get him out of a DRW ever again with a big trailer, either. Sometimes you just have to experience it and that makes it click... This is how towing something this big should feel.

I'm not knocking anyone's personal decision to tow however they feel comfortable and spend their hard earned shekels however they please, that's not my style. But I'm happy to share what I watched him go through as he switched from "towing heavy" to towing well within the specifications of his truck.

Watching that, also helped me make my decision when it came time to buy our 5er. I bought the truck first, and then sized the trailer accordingly. The truck is a 2001 Dodge Cummins with the camper package, DRW, manual transmission, low geared rear end, and an add-on exhaust brake. Yes I can afford something newer and shinier in a less heavy TV, even new if I cared to have a car loan... But we stuck to what we could afford in cash and while we did take a loan on the trailer, it could also be paid off tomorrow. Well, maybe a week to free up the funds, anyway.

It's a joy to pull the trailer with it, and it had some other mods done (upgraded computer w/variable tuning for additional horsepower and an upgraded turbo that actually because of an improper installation led to a head gasket blowout, and a big honking cold air intake to feed the turbo beast, and since then I've upped the injector size a bit) but it'll tow just fine, and within weight limits, stock. It also amazingly did almost 2000 miles with that head gasket blown and got us home.

Someday I'll have to trade it or sell it and I'll find another DRW that has at least the capacity it does or better, and continue to enjoy the rock solid towing aspects of the setup. The only problem we've had is the length is exactly right to do a little pitching on concrete highways at certain speeds. That one is pretty easy to fix by simply changing the cruise control setting until the length of the concrete sections changes or we are back on asphalt.

No add on bags, no fancy hitch (Reese 16K), no worries about much at all other than crazy drivers who want to cut you off and sit three feet off the front bumper. It just tows. And it loves doing it.

[KanTC]

tomsws6,

.....Hitch weight - 3280..... dry weight - 14506

The weights you're quoting are different than those on the Dutchmen website & brochures.....

Average Shipping Weight (lbs.) 15,104

Dry Hitch Weight (lbs.) 3,434

Cargo Capacity (lbs.) 3,396

Length 43' 10"

http://www.dutchmen.com/voltage/floorplans/floorplans-detail/?modelId=6753

http://www.dutchmen.com/media/7895/dm_15_v-series-web.pdf
http://www.dutchmen.com/media/7894/dm_15_voltage-web.pdf

Terri, the Chevy co-pilot :)

[rjward]

As you have found there is lots of good info here and I'm a noob so don't have much to add. Just thought I would point one thing out. There is a difference between being "Heavy" and being "Overweight". To me being Heavy means you are over the ideal 80% tow weight but are under the all the max trailer, payload, axle, etc. weights.
If you are over one or more of the vehicle limits then you are Overweight and then this becomes more of a legal issue than a comfort issue.
So you might be comfortable towing a short distance being a little Heavy, but I wouldn't tow at all Overweight.

You are on the right path by first crunching all the numbers and finding out exactly where you are. While this can be a painful process if you are going to tow a large campers you have to know how to do this. Because if you get in an accident you can be sure that someone else sure is going to.

Good Luck!

[x96mnn]

I would consider that a heavy haul for my dodge dually with 6000pds available cargo and 19000pd towing.

Can't say what I would do if I were you. I can state that my personal comfort level would be exceeded with my truck.

[tomsws6]

Thanks guys! ITs still i the cards but we started to expand our search a little more. Headed over to MD fri to look at a few different one.

[vmyoung61]

Im sorry, what I meant by "look pretty good" was on the financial side.. :o And there is no argument from me about those mods increasing my capacity.. Its mainly for vehicle control which I believe is very important but I do agree on your other point about increasing... But you also said dry weight wasnt all that crucial??

Because nobody tows their trailer empty . . .:D

Chances are, that the trailer as it sits at the dealer, weighs more than that "dry weight."

[tomsws6]

Well the dutchman didnt pan out but we did take delivery of a cyclone 4200"bouncey:.... Hitting the scales monday and a new truck soon:banghead:

[sw342]

Come on out to CA. That F350 would be overkill out here. There are plenty of people towing all the big toy haulers with their lifted F250's and 2500's :D

[x96mnn]

Well the dutchman didnt pan out but we did take delivery of a cyclone 4200"bouncey:.... Hitting the scales monday and a new truck soon:banghead:

That camper looks out of this world! Love the thought they put into it like the slide out TV in the bedroom, large windows and side patio! Congrats!

[tomsws6]

Thanks!! Its an awesome floor plan with the side portch and everything we would ever NOT need in a camper. lol My 6yr daughter just informed me on how the couch recliners were electric and push a button and they recline. :eek: Anyway now the weight news.. I went to the scales today to see were I actually stood and I has about a 3rd fully loaded(no golf cart and other camping crap) but the fridge was full, cabinets and full of clothes. The tanks were dry but the tuck had a full tank. Can I figure my actual pin weight with these figures?

steer axle -4680
drive axle - 7100
trailer - 14240
total - 26020
truck only - 7920

[JRTJH]

Can I figure my actual pin weight with these figures?

steer axle -4680
drive axle - 7100
trailer - 14240
total - 26020
truck only - 7920

Yes you can.
Steer axle + drive axle = loaded truck weight
loaded truck weight - truck only = Pin Weight

4680 + 7100 = 11780 - 7920 = 3860 (pin weight)

I see that once you weighed your truck, it's significantly heavier than the spec sheet's weight of 6586. With the pin weight of 3860, you're about 400 pounds over your truck GVWR. Did you include cargo, passengers and anything "extra" you'll be carrying in the truck when you tow? If you didn't, then that will put you even further over your GVWR.

Good Luck with the new house and eventually with towing your new fifth wheel.

[tomsws6]

Yes you can.
Steer axle + drive axle = loaded truck weight
loaded truck weight - truck only = Pin Weight

4680 + 7100 = 11780 - 7920 = 3860 (pin weight)

I see that once you weighed your truck, it's significantly heavier than the spec sheet's weight of 6586. With the pin weight of 3860, you're about 400 pounds over your truck GVWR. Did you include cargo, passengers and anything "extra" you'll be carrying in the truck when you tow? If you didn't, then that will put you even further over your GVWR.

Good Luck with the new house and eventually with towing your new fifth wheel.


Yes she was about a 1/3rd fully loaded.. The golf cart is an extra 1k right off the bat plus another 4-500pounds of cargo Im guessing.. Thanks! Shes parked right now and set up as were staying in it till the house is done.So, a dually it is...

[bsmith0404]

You will love a dually.

One thing that I never see anyone talk about on this forum, and something I never put much thought into before is the wheels on the truck. Recently I was at Discount Tire getting tires rotated when I guy came in with a 2500 and was getting new wheels. He already had aftermarket wheels so I was surprised he was replacing them. After a bit of discussion I found out why, he cracked one of them with a heavy load he was towing. I don't know how heavy or how far he towed it, but he obviously exceeded the weight rating on his wheels. There are so many things that come into play when determining what is a safe GVWR. Wheel manufacturers also build wheels to spec based on what trucks are supposed to weigh. It's never a safe situation to exceed weights.

As for the crossed drilled rotors, I thought the purpose was for heat dissipation? Hot brakes fade, so they drill the holes to help them cool. Most people never feel the effect of that because brakes just don't get hot enough in normal driving for it to ever make a difference.....making them a waste of money. 4 or 6 piston calipers will make a difference because they provide more consistent pressure over the entire pad surface than 1 or 2 piston calipers which put pressure on the center and allow the pad to flex reducing pressure on the outer edges of the pad.

[JRTJH]

I commented on that issue in post #19 in this thread, "That is IF you have the correct tires on the truck and nobody has "changed out wheels, shocks, brakes, bearings. All of those components (along with many others) make up the GVWR. Any subs for lighter duty components changes the 11,400. How much? Who knows, But bottom line, ..."

You're right stating that wheels (and other components) that someone installs to "upgrade their truck" can easily become the "weak link" and cause significant problems with heavy loading. After market wheels or even off road, oversized tires might "look good" or make the truck "sit better", but if they aren't rated for the GVW, they can easily become the "weakest link" and be the cause of a towing failure.

Just because it fits doesn't mean it will work. When buying a used vehicle, it becomes even more of a consideration because "heaven only knows" what the previous owner did (or didn't do) that won't show up until the "weakest link" is stressed to the breaking point. "Due diligence" is warranted when shopping for a used truck, and that should include making sure which components have been "upgraded" to a "weaker standard".....

[gearhead]

Similar to what those of us in inherently dangerous refinery/petrochemical manufacturing get pounded into our brains: MANAGEMENT OF CHANGE.
You wouldn't believe what it takes to change anything.
I have a laminated MOC form that was given to me at my retirement hanging on my garage wall.
I'm not complaining. Stopped all the changes that were never thought out or documented.
Translates well in personal life: what are all the consequences of what I am wanting to do.

[bsmith0404]

The wheels that this guy had were a heavy aftermarket wheel. Actually a very popular wheel that meets OE specs. He just plain and simple overloaded it. That would mean he also overloaded the axle and the springs as well. Probably lucky the wheel is all he broke. It is definitely a safety factor that should be taken into consideration when weighing the odds/risks of loading heavy. In the AF we call it risk management. Make sure you understand the risk and consequences of everything you do.

[gtsum2]

Congrats on the new rig. That thing is a monster for sure. Wise choice on a new dually:)