Is Keystone really that bad or are there just more of them out there

[Boisedad]

About to purchase a Keystone Avalanche 360 but thought I would check out reviews on the manufacturer and now I'm worried. Had a hard time finding anything positive anywhere online about Keystone. I realize that for the most part it's those that are upset that are most vocal and that Keystone moves a lot of product so statistically they will have more issues even if they have the same percentage of issues. However, like I said, I really had a hard time finding anyone who had positive things to say about them. So, I thought I'd go to the best source, those who own them. What's the consensus, 1. Run away as fast as you can. 2. No better no worse than any others. 3. Better than average. Or 4. Best choice you could ever make.

Details would be much appreciated. And, as a side note, I am also considering the Open Range 427BHS.

[Dhuhn]

Keystone make a good product. If you look at all the manufactures you will get good and bad reviews from them all. I am very happy with my Montana and would buy another one. Do your research keystone has different models some are cheaper then others. For the money keystone is a good value.

[wahoonc]

I would go with number 2...

Keystone makes RV's they are owned by Thor, which owns a bunch of other companies too. They have to answer to the bean counters/shareholders. Decent QC is lacking in much of the RV industry as a whole. The best bet is to pick the floor plan you prefer with the options you want, find a dealer you like, then look at the brand.

A have to do, is a thorough PDI and insist that everything is fixed to your satisfaction BEFORE you sign on the dotted line and turn the money over.

I did a walk through on several trailers that we were interested in, two were off the list very quickly do to the quality of assembly. We chose between two units and I think we got the better one. So far only two issues, one they fixed the other one I did. The more complicated the unit the more chance for issues. Also when they roll out a new model with lots of stuff I believe the chance for issues goes up.

Caveat Emptor!

Aaron:cool:

[frankenstang]

I couldn't find any bad news about our Outback 312bh. We searched for 2 months and looked at 20 different models of the same floor plan and ended up getting a 1.5 yr old used one that was near new. Just got done packing all of our stuff from the previous camper in it yesterday. Seems like a great camper so far. Since it was used, we got the opportunity to see what issues could have popped up in the year it got used. Couple of drawer slides were bad and the sliding pocket door hardware was broken. That I blame on them using plastic mounting brackets. There is one metal one that held up fine, gonna replace those myself.

I'd have no issues buying another one. In fact, we fell in love with an Alpine 5er a few years ago and may end up getting one next time.

[raineman]

Always remember when reading reviews that most people writing them only do so when something goes bad. Not too many people sit down to write how good things are.

I have had my Raptor for a just under 2 months. Yes there were some issues that I worked through with the dealer but nothing that would make me say Keystone makes a bad product. In fact we love our trailer. Give me the name of any RV and I can find a slew of bad reviews on them

As previously mentioned, do a solid walk through and don't take it off the lot until all is up to your satisfaction. No exceptions. Also be willing to walk away if the dealer shows any sign of hesitation in correcting any issues before delivery. The only way to get a solid RV from any manufacturer is to have a good dealer that represents them. Good luck with whatever you buy

[JRTJH]

A Customer Satisfaction Poll that was conducted on this forum a few years back. It started in June 2011 and the last entry was in November, 2012. Data from that poll indicated of the 342 members who responded, 309 indicated they would buy another Keystone RV while 33 indicated otherwise. You can find the poll and the comments located on the forum at this link: http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3015&highlight=another+Keystone

[Rex1vt]

[QUOTE=Boisedad;165880]About to purchase a Keystone Avalanche 360 consensus, . 2. No better no worse than any others.

The truth is probably in this range,depending on the luck of the draw.Most issues which may or may not come up come with use,however, the tires are in your face and can be researched up front.

[BigBlue]

We are very happy with our Springdale. Before buying a Keystone, we had a Forest River. After one year we traded it in because there were so many problems with it. I believe the Spingdale is considered and entry level, but it has some great features and we are much more comfortable with it than our Forest River.

[racin500]

We bought or first Keystone last year. My sister and husband are on their 3rd Montana. We went from tents and boy scouts to a 5th wheel. We almost started to believe all the bad PR and were getting cold feet so we called my sister.

They had a few problems but never any big issues. They have been trailer/RV camping for 30 years. They always bought new units. Talking with others in the parks, most people don't have anything real bad to say about most of the brand name RV's.

They told us, PDI is IMPORTANT. New or used. Take notes. Make them show you that everything works. Don't just take their word for it.

During the PDI, you need to operate everything, not the salesman.

Learn how to fix the little things yourself, or, find a neighbor who will help you.

It's not a car. They are not car dealerships. Don't compare service like a car.

A dealer (yours or any of them) can be a friend or YOU can make them your enemy.

Buy it, enjoy it, expect some bugs.

[chuckster57]

I work on many different brands. IMO Keystone does a much better job than most.

[raineman]

A dealer (yours or any of them) can be a friend or YOU can make them your enemy.

Buy it, enjoy it, expect some bugs.

Hmm, I strongly disagree. Plenty dealers can be extremely difficult despite the consumer's attitude. To suggest that any bad experience with a dealer is the consumer's fault just isn't so. Any business that run's on that attitude, RV or otherwise, would fail quickly.

Maybe what they meant was that the attitude used by the consumer can affect the outcome when dealing with dealers. Just as anything else in life, if you go into something with the wrong attitude it may not turn out as desired.

[Harleyhop]

"bouncey:I say use your PDI to its fullest do not take the salesmans word that they will take care of it! I have owned a number of different RV's from various companies. I think our Alpine is built very well. Of it did have a few little problems that had to be taken care of but no big deal. I would recommend an Alpine to anyone that's in the market.

[Boisedad]

Well, honestly, these replys make me feel much better. Thank you for the advice of doing a thorough PDI. I'm going to block out several hours for this. If I do decide on the keystone you can bet I'll be on this forum quite often. Thank you all again for the great insight, advice and especially for taking the time to respond.

[chuckster57]

Even if you decide to buy a different brand, feel free to download and print the PDI checklist. It is applicable to any make and model:

http://keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5129&highlight=checklist

[mamawildbear]

We've only had ours since November 1 and it was both our first travel trailer and our first keystone (our previous was a Coleman popup) so we're not yet that experienced. Did not know much about any of the brands but gave up on reading all the overall brand reviews for these very reasons. People are very vocal when they are displeased and you don't hear as much from the happy people. Plus something popular is going to get more complaints on the internet because there are just that many more people to have a variety of experiences.

Since buying, I've heard people talk about how cheap (quality) Springdales are and how they are entry level but I'm actually surprised and very pleased with ours. We had very specific wants when we started looking. We didn't want too long, were looking in the 25-26 foot range. We wanted a bunk house model with two double bunks, because we grow giant children. We wanted a separate bedroom for mom and dad. We didn't want a slide (well, not so much didn't want but didn't want to pay and afraid of leaks and failures of slides). We looked at a whole variety of units with matching models, Jayco, Avenger, and a bunch of others I can't even remember. EVERY SINGLE ONE, we thought, "Hmmmmm... it's OK, but it doesn't have xxx, like the Springdale." After comparing all those units and driving all over town, we thought that if we're going to compare everything to the Springdale and they are just going to come up short, why not get the Springdale. It was about $2-3000 more than those other units but we liked it so much more.

Since then, we've had nothing major go wrong. Except our stupid tank levels don't work and for what I read on this forum, we can give up on that. We have friends with a Rockwood and and another with Coleman and they've both been back in twice in the same period to have things fixed. Ours had some stupid wasted space I thought they should have been designed better but so far no major flaws and quality seems good to me. Maybe I'm just an entry level person and don't know the difference but both Keystone and Springdale seem good to me.

I also think it is very normal to have to be kind of a fix it yourself person when you have an RV. Most people I know are always having to tweak things, add mods, repair leaks, etc. It seems a normal part of RVing and to expect otherwise is to set your self up for disappointment.

[Wilkod]

I had to weigh in on this because we came from an open range 399bhs and traded for a 2013 Raptor 395lev. The dealer had to fix several items on the Raptor under warranty. Currently (after about 5000 miles) I am facing a leaky grey tank which was fixed once during warranty. I'm confident I'll fix that myself (due mostly to the help from this site). Overall though the raptor quality is much better than my experience with the open Range. Let's just say I became an expert at repairing cable slide outs !

[cb1000rider]

Keystone make a good product. If you look at all the manufactures you will get good and bad reviews from them all. I am very happy with my Montana and would buy another one. Do your research keystone has different models some are cheaper then others. For the money keystone is a good value.


The issue is that Keystone has a fairly well documented "poor" response to it's customers after the sale. IMHO, they appear to be in fairly unique standing in that respect. Other manufactures will deal directly with the consumer and work *much* harder to resolve issues.

A few stores that speak to me on the internet where keystone had a roof cut too short and the solution was to caulk/trim over it.. Obviously, they didn't want to eat the cost of that trailer. And similar issues with roof bubbles. Probably statistically rare..

Speaking from my experience, I know Jayco. I don't think they're really build any better than Keystone and I see no "quality" differences between the Carbon and the Raptor. I see different trim levels, but the quality is the same. However, Jayco responds to the consumer differently.

Looking at BBB complaints, Keystone had 4x as many complaints as Jayco. This doesn't necessarily mean anything if Keystone sells 4x as many RVs - it could very well mean that Keystone is actually better... But as I read those complaints and the response is "we will respond to the consumer directly" - that's NOT resolution... And that sort of thing isn't the right way to run a business, at least not in my opinion.

[Steve S]

When I was looking for this last trailer I did exactly like I did with the 2 before. I never looked at reviews and the drama of pissy people running down companies I went with my gut feeling of the fit and finish of the unit .
I made sure everything worked fine, made sure I was dealing with a reputable company and went from there
If and when I decide to buy another trailer I'll be looking at a Keystone but I'll be looking at others too.
I'm the first to admit that Keystone makes a great product compared to others that I've owned and they really do put some thought into their floor plans.
I think for the most part people have to realize that they're buying a trailer and not a house that's built very solid.
Keeping a trailer as light as possible will bring certain problems that we all have to get used to and live with.

[cb1000rider]

Steve, certainly there will be consumers that are never satisfied. And complaints must be scaled to the volume of units sold.

However, why not pay attention to the company response to those complaints? And the internet has a few fairly well documented problems.. Choosing to ignore those and go with your gut - you guts are more reliable than mine....

[Steve S]

Yes but what did we do before the interweb? We went with word of mouth and our gut feelings and how the dealer treated us. ......oh gawd now I'm feeling old:p:D

[cb1000rider]

Word of mouth IS the internet. It's just a lot more mouths... Remember when we bought encyclopedias? The internet kinda ruined that business... However, it's also created a huge bank of knowledge.. Most of it right, some of it misleading.

The internet also does huge things for businesses that have great consumer response - like Amazon... And honestly, pretty much all RV manufacturers have complaints, but I'll use my brain and read through BBB responses and differentiate how businesses respond to consumers. I can't always tell what complaints are valid and which aren't, but I can judge how a company responds...

[Festus2]

cb1000rider -
Since joining the forum you have submitted a number of posts in which you are quite critical of Keystone and their products. If I understand you correctly, your major complaint is their lack of response to real customer problems. You state that the way they operate is no way to run a business and that there is well-documented poor response to its customers after the sale.

You go on to say that their units are of low build quality and that you "see very little quality with Keystone".

In general your comments are quite negative but to give you credit you do admit that they "have great floor plans".

One of your many complaints is that Keystone does not deal directly with the customer should there be an issue or problem with a customer's RV. I think most major RV and auto manufacturers do not deal directly with the customer and Keystone is no exception. If, for example, you have a problem with your tow truck or family car, do you call up Ford or GM or whoever and deal directly with the folks there? Most people I know, go through their dealership first and the dealer does almost all of the "negotiating" - not the customer - to get the problem fixed. How is it that you expect Keystone to deal directly with you? Are your problems of such importance and priority that you feel Keystone should work one-on-one with you while the rest of us go through the normal channels and work with the dealer?

Finally, I am wondering why, after reading so many of your negative remarks about Keystone and Keystone RVs why you bought one. Do you have anything positive at all to say? Puzzled.

[cw3jason]

I came from a Crossroads product before purchasing my Montana and I belong to both forums. They have just as many if not more complaints over there. All this stuff is industry wide. I love my Montana, and I have had no problem with Keystone or my dealer.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[notanlines]

I'm with Festus on this one. If Brenda and I had all the money back we've spent on boats, motorcycles and RV's ...........we'd have enough to buy more of each. But the one thing we learned is to work with the dealer. And bad-mouthing the product you just bought seems kind of odd to me.

[Dave W]

cb1000rider -
Since joining the forum you have submitted a number of posts in which you are quite critical of Keystone and their products. If I understand you correctly, your major complaint is their lack of response to real customer problems. You state that the way they operate is no way to run a business and that there is well-documented poor response to its customers after the sale.

You go on to say that their units are of low build quality and that you "see very little quality with Keystone".

In general your comments are quite negative but to give you credit you do admit that they "have great floor plans".

One of your many complaints is that Keystone does not deal directly with the customer should there be an issue or problem with a customer's RV. I think most major RV and auto manufacturers do not deal directly with the customer and Keystone is no exception. If, for example, you have a problem with your tow truck or family car, do you call up Ford or GM or whoever and deal directly with the folks there? Most people I know, go through their dealership first and the dealer does almost all of the "negotiating" - not the customer - to get the problem fixed. How is it that you expect Keystone to deal directly with you? Are your problems of such importance and priority that you feel Keystone should work one-on-one with you while the rest of us go through the normal channels and work with the dealer?

Finally, I am wondering why, after reading so many of your negative remarks about Keystone and Keystone RVs why you bought one. Do you have anything positive at all to say? Puzzled.


Uhhhh isn't this considered a 'personal attack' and forbidden.You, Festus, as a 'Super Moderator' are making a personal statement against a forum member about a real or perceived situation. I'm new here and am completely surprised that this is on the public side rather then via PM or private email. Other sites I frequent on other interests would place you on a week or two vacation regardless of your site status. Please stop - also, please remove your statement above and keep this site friendly regardless of your problem towards a person!!

[Dave W]

To respond to the OP - Keystone products are like so many other complicated items. Sometimes it's just the luck of the draw and one unit just seems to get every defective outsourced part in the factory on a particular day. Then there is the new owner that feels that a loose light bulb is cause for complaint. We jumped to a Keystone product from a super premium, but now dated and defunct Glendale Titanium and while there are some real differences in build quality and supplied components, are very satisfied with our choice of a Montana High Country. Yeah, it has had some problems though minor. Then there was that dweeb designer who insisted on black slide ends that absorb heat, especially the reefer slide. And the belly mounted spare that dragged before I pulled it out. These are minor issues, relatively easily correctable by a DIY 'er - and some things every RV owner should have some skills in doing. Find a design and a manufacturer you like, but Keystone is owned by Thor and they seem to own a big part of the US RV industry regardless of final brand name.

[jsmith948]

Uhhhh isn't this considered a 'personal attack' and forbidden.You, Festus, as a 'Super Moderator' are making a personal statement against a forum member about a real or perceived situation. I'm new here and am completely surprised that this is on the public side rather then via PM or private email. Other sites I frequent on other interests would place you on a week or two vacation regardless of your site status. Please stop - also, please remove your statement above and keep this site friendly regardless of your problem towards a person!!

DaveW,
I have re-read Festus2's response to CB1000rider and do not see it as a "personal attack" but as an attempt by one of our members to point out to the poster that his comments and statements are consistently negative. In fact, I would say this member either has "an ax to grind" or is affiliated with another manufacturer.
This member supports our Forum moderators. Keep up the good work and thanks for your efforts.:)

[EricLynnAllison]

Other than loose screws on the skirting, Any other problems I've had with my Raptor are with items they purchase and install just like any other RV manufacturer such as tires, water heater, etc.

[Scttw]

Uhhhh isn't this considered a 'personal attack' and forbidden.You, Festus, as a 'Super Moderator' are making a personal statement against a forum member about a real or perceived situation. I'm new here and am completely surprised that this is on the public side rather then via PM or private email. Other sites I frequent on other interests would place you on a week or two vacation regardless of your site status. Please stop - also, please remove your statement above and keep this site friendly regardless of your problem towards a person!!

Festus' remarks were fair, not offending, and accurate.

[Scttw]

A Customer Satisfaction Poll that was conducted on this forum a few years back. It started in June 2011 and the last entry was in November, 2012. Data from that poll indicated of the 342 members who responded, 309 indicated they would buy another Keystone RV while 33 indicated otherwise. You can find the poll and the comments located on the forum at this link: http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3015&highlight=another+Keystone

IMO this is the most important reply for the OP. 90% satisfaction from 342 members is very good.

[14george]

Keep up the good work Festus I love mine no complaints

[Barbell]

Like others on the forum, we started with a small tent, then a big tent, then a Lance truck camper and now have a Montana which we love. Never had any problems with the Lance at all; we just got too old to be climbing in and out of the over-the-cab bed. When we started looking to upgrade from the Lance, we spent at least two years and looked at nearly every brand there is but kept coming back to the Montana. We have owned it for just over two years and have pulled it around 25,000 miles. We have had some warranty work and some recall work done, none of which was done at our original dealer. We have used Camping Worlds in the Carolinas and Arizona with never a question about where we bought it. I have done some work on the closet doors with assurances from a Keystone rep that I would be reimbursed; however, that person was never found again when I submitted my bill. I also added a hitch so we could carry our bikes without hanging them on the ladder. All in all, however, our experience with Keystone has been positive. The trailer is well built, taking into consideration it has to be made as light as possible. If/when we replace this trailer, it most likely will be another Keystone product.

[sourdough]

Well, here's my 2 cents worth.

I've owned Fleetwood, Jayco, Heartland and now Keystone products. ALL have had issues. ALL have requirements that you deal with the dealership. At Keystone I WAS allowed to talk and work thru the owner relations dept.

As far as Keystone vs ABC, they have the best floorplans out there IMO and the best build quality for money spent. Before we bought our new 14 Cougar High Country we looked at many, many manufacturers products and dozens upon dozens of units. Keystone had what we wanted, the best quality, the best price and a great dealer. Having owned other units I knew there would be some issues but a thorough PDI up front (from this forum) and a good dealership inspection prior to mine, kept that to a minimum. I am a happy camper and would buy Keystone again in a heartbeat if they had what I wanted at the right price.

As far as Festus2 making a personal attack - I don't think so IMO. I just deleted an entire paragraph explaining why but then it sounded like I was attacking the person in question:o Suffice it to say Festus2 pointed out the same questions that came to my mind after reading the posts mentioned.

[cb1000rider]

cb1000rider -
You go on to say that their units are of low build quality and that you "see very little quality with Keystone".

In general your comments are quite negative but to give you credit you do admit that they "have great floor plans".

One of your many complaints is that Keystone does not deal directly with the customer should there be an issue or problem with a customer's RV. I think most major RV and auto manufacturers do not deal directly with the customer and Keystone is no exception. If, for example, you have a problem with your tow truck or family car, do you call up Ford or GM or whoever and deal directly with the folks there? Most people I know, go through their dealership first and the dealer does almost all of the "negotiating" - not the customer - to get the problem fixed. How is it that you expect Keystone to deal directly with you? Are your problems of such importance and priority that you feel Keystone should work one-on-one with you while the rest of us go through the normal channels and work with the dealer?

Finally, I am wondering why, after reading so many of your negative remarks about Keystone and Keystone RVs why you bought one. Do you have anything positive at all to say? Puzzled.

So let me clarify:
I don't see a high degree of precision and quality control out of any of the 5th wheel toy haulers that I looked out. The background for this is investigating a bunch of posts about perceived hierarchy around the quality "order" of manufacturers. Basically I wanted to determine who builds a quality coach and who didn't. The conclusion that I came to is that most of the manufacturers are very similar in technique and that the ranking is mostly a ranking of options and doo-dads, which really doesn't have much to do with quality and assembly precision. That is, most people saying brand A didn't have "quality" largely meant lower-options - it was misleading to me.

I actually bought a Keystone because of metal framing. I have buddy with a Puma that would fit my needs very well and cost $10k less, but part of my investigation turned up Keystone has a more modern framing technique - lighter, and holds up better in the event of water... Is that worth $10k under ideal conditions? I don't know - but it's part of the reason that I bought a Keystone.

I do have concerns about Keystone responding to the consumer. I've never bought a new RV and it's kinda a unique situation where the dealer says that "it's not our warranty" - "no guarantee of service timeline" - literally immediately upon signing the paperwork - and Keystone wants the dealers to be the first line of defense. That's a new experience.

I've had great luck with other manufacturers (brands unmentioned) getting factory support for parts, diagrams, etc. Even when I didn't buy new. I wanted to know if Keystone did stuff like that.

That is, I need a part, don't want to drive a 2-hour round trip to my "dealer" and want to order direct - some manufacturers allow this, some don't. Some have sorta phone call technical support - but that's unusual and isn't sustainable if you're high volume. I wanted to understand the kind of support for parts etc that I'd expect from Keystone.

Sourdough's post - that there IS a customer relations department and a way to go around a dealer that may not be so interested in providing post-sale service is something that I'm very interested in hearing.


And yes, I'd very much like it if I can order a part (at retail) through the manufacturer. That's important to me. Most of my issues have been relatively minor and I'd rather sort out the part and have it shipped to me than have the parts guy 2 hours away get it wrong.

I don't like the BBB responses. That's just my opinion. They didn't make me feel confident. However, that was outweighed by people who have said "never had a problem" - and repair people that indicate that there are no special issues with Keystone and that it's more about taking care of the RV.


I think you'll find (long term) that most of my posts are technical - either asking or answering questions.

I didn't take your response as a personal attack, but please be clear if criticism of the brand isn't allowed or if I'm breaking some other forum rule that I'm not aware of. I'll get in line immediately or stop posting. It's your shop, your rules and I can respect them.

[Festus2]

A quick and short reply to a couple of your concerns ---
First, Keystone does not sell parts to folks who own a Keystone. They are not in the parts business so you shouldn't expect them, should you ask, to give you part numbers, sell you parts, recommend parts, or anything to do with parts. Your dealer or some other RV parts/supply retailer or online RV parts suppliers are your best route.

If you have issues or problems with your Carbon, the first place you should go to is the dealer. That is where you start. You can go to Customer Service but 9 times out of 10 they will refer you back to the dealership. So, get on good terms with your dealer and work with them to resolve issues. Hopefully, you have a good one that will support and go to bat for you when issues arise.

"Going to the top" or to Keystone isn't the best route to take. You may, at times, end up there, but the dealer is the "go to guy".

Keystone also does not supply any type of diagram or schematic relating to plumbing, electrical, framing, etc. Many members have asked about this and they are just not available. If you happen to get your hands on one, you could make a fortune on here selling it.

Lastly, we do have rules on the forum. They can be found in the Forum Rules section. You might be interested in the one that says that "repeated negative comments, trashing or attacks on ... manufacturers" .... are not acceptable. "Issues and concerns about manufacturers or their products are quite acceptable". There is a difference between the two. If a member continues to make repeated negative comments and has nothing constructive to contribute to the forum, those posts will be deleted and the member's account may be cancelled.

You can use your own common sense and judgment as to whether or not your criticism is negative, is continuing and is contributing nothing to the forum.

(I guess my reply wasn't so quick and short after all!)

[cb1000rider]

Thanks for the run down on Keystone parts. That's not the ideal answer, but it should mostly be a non-issue. Going to the top was never the intent, but sometimes there is factory support. Different brand - different way of doing things. No big deal and good to know.


If I get my hands on a diagram or end up reverse-engineering one (which happens sometimes) - I'm most likely to share that freely rather than sell it. Lack of diagrams is pretty common. Let's just say that they're all "custom" implementations.

These forums are tremendously valuable and there's such a huge learning curve without them, regardless of interest or product type. Literally there was no info on the Carbon anywhere else.

I asked lots of questions, perhaps I shouldn't have alluded to any negativity and asked more neutrally.. I have no ownership history so zero negative experiences. I've been transparent about it. I did provide my thoughts on BBB response, but I'll also note that I didn't reference that BBB link when asked, instead asked offing a PM - I was legitimately (in my mind) researching a purchase decision and sharing a concern. I'll be more careful when sharing a concern as it could be perceived as a rules violation.



You can use your own common sense and judgment as to whether or not your criticism is negative, is continuing and is contributing nothing to the forum.

I get the message loud and clear that I'm not behaving appropriately for this forum. I recognize that you've appropriately warned me and that I've been treated fairly. I understand that my questions are not adding value. Well presented, loud and clear. As I'm past the pre-purchase stage, I won't be asking for any more feedback on quality or end-owner experiences. Hopefully I can provide some technical (or other value) to the forum.

[sourdough]

To piggyback on Festus2s comments (I've now determined you are looking more for experience for guidance?):

Keystone will not work with "you" and bypass the dealer. Won't happen in my experience....nor will any other RV manufacturer that I know of. I worked with Keystone directly on an issue about tire/axle configurations on my trailer and they actually directed me to some of their management....I was misinformed = they were great.

When I experienced "broken" items on a routine trip to FL from TX I worked with Keystone, through the dealer in FL, and they provided me with all new replacement items for me to install/replace because I was living in the trailer in FL and would not take it to the dealer for x amount of time to wait for the installation.

There is a customer relations dept. in Keystone. I would not categorize it as a way to go around the dealer. After being immersed in the "RV world" and trying it on my own, I found that being best friends with your dealer is ......the best deal. You don't have to "give in" or anything like that (not in my nature) but be a regular customer with expectations.

Bottom line is this; make sure you have a great dealer; I have had Stellar results with Camping World. Know your service manager - he is your friend...not your enemy.

All the appliances are warranted by the individual manufacturers. They aren't Keystone products. If you have an issue with one of them and you take it to the dealer they then have to get approval from the appliance manufacturer for repairs....Keystone can't do that.

It's a mess but it is what it is and we all have to "walk the line".

[I.plod]

We had a Jayco that was great, and when it came to upgrade I had my heart set on a new Jayco. After a trip to the dealer's lot, our jaws were left hanging at how badly it was put together. Brand new! I was sad.

This 2014 Keystone has been excellent! But I also have a great dealer.

I'd buy another (but my beloved says this is the LAST one...**snicker, snicker**).

[JRTJH]

To piggyback on Festus2 and sourdough's comments (although theirs are very clear and very accurate), if you buy a new truck and have a problem with the steering, or an issue with a door that won't stay closed, or even a "big hole in the roof" that fills the truck with water when it rains, if you call Chrysler World Headquarters in Auburn Hills, GM Corporate offices in Detroit or Ford Motor Company in Dearborn to discuss the problem with "customer service", you'll find that about halfway through your complaint, the CS representative will interrupt you and tell you that you MUST take your truck to the nearest dealership service department to have it inspected. They won't tell you that they will repair it, nor will they tell you when they will have it back to you, nor will they offer to pay you for your "troubles" caused by the problem. They will only instruct you to go to the dealer. Some may be more "compassionate" than others, some may seem "sympathetic and encouraging" some may seem "business like and short or curt" but none of them will "spring with a promise of a check for your troubles". I find it confusing why people think Keystone should operate any differently. They don't and they won't make promises they can't keep based on "one side of the story" provided by an emotional (or clearly level-headed) customer who is reporting "his side of the problem". They all use scripted, empathetic responses, aimed at de-escalating anger and moving the customer to the dealer's service department for resolution.

NONE of them, (nor KIA, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc) would take your address and send you a new roof, replacement door handle or steering box. Nor would they make any "promises" about when or how it would be repaired, nor would they offer reimbursement if you want to fix it yourself. If you complain that the problem is "ruining your vacation" you'll get empathy, but no promise of what/when the results will be finished. This is especially true before the dealer has confirmed for the manufacturer, that there "really is a problem"......

It's not "that bad CS at Keystone", nor is it "that bad Jayco" It's the way manufacturers do business with complex items. We all know of the "guy that called the company and they sent him extra parts he didn't need and now he "got one over on the company and has spare parts because he "fudged the truth" and somebody fell for it. As companies grow and more and more customers "try that tactic" companies grow more firm in their requirement to verify the problem at the dealership before they even discuss solutions. Most will only discuss those solutions with the dealer, not with the customer. That "middleman" called the "company representative" is the "go between" for the manufacturer. You're "HIS" customer, not "Keystone's customer" when it comes to servicing your RV. They built it, but the dealer is responsible to repair it during the warranty. If it may need to be returned to the factory, he and the manufacturer make that decision, it's not predicated on the desires of the customer, but the complexity of the repair and whether or not it can be accomplished in the field. Their objective is to repair it properly for the least amount of money. It's not determined by the desires of the customer so he can be "assured it's done right". Their objective is that it's going to be done right "wherever it's repaired". That may not always happen, but it's the objective.

In today's competitive market, with the exception of a very few "we'll make it right" small ticket manufacturers who will send "commonly failed items" to the customer, you won't get "spare parts" or "legitimate replacements for failed parts" with a phone call. Companies just don't do that any more. Don't blame Keystone, Jayco, Ford, Chrysler or GM for not being responsive. It's the way they all do business today.

Sometimes people think: It's my house, it's where I live when on vacation, so I should get a priority and special treatment because I have a problem. If you look at it from Keystone's perspective, every customer with a problem with his "house, where he lives on vacation" expects that same "special treatment". Where then, do the "average, run of the mill" problems get placed? How can "every problem" get "right now treatment"? How can "you be the only priority"?

Are you being realistic when you demand that some "voice" on the other end of the phone in Goshen be able to effect an "immediate resolution to your priority" when it isn't within their scope and it isn't done in any other business of the same complexity?

[binfordtools]

People ALWAYS feel compelled to post every nuance of negativity about a product when they feel jilted about quality. Although I am new to RV ownership, I have friends with RV's that are not Keystone and they too have had/continue to have quality concerns.

My brand new Keystone TT has some things that from a quality standpoint and even some design aspect, are less than ideal. But, I also realize that it's meant to be lightweight and attempts to cram 50lbs. of [BLEEP] into a 25lb. bag.

I initially thought buying a brand new camper was going to be akin to buying a brand new car. High expectations. Perfection. It's not. No matter what manufacture you go with sans high end stainless steel TT's (and those too most likely will have some issues), I would be willing to bet there will some things you don't care for.

I chose more for floor layout than what the naysayers said about concerns and I am more than happy with the purchase. Guessing this method will prove to make you happy too.

Happy camping!

[C130]

The sad and unacceptable part is we've just accepted the fact that it's completely normal to have issues with a new $80,000 RV. It shouldn't be this way and is completely unacceptable in my opinion. It surely isn't in the automobile industry and the RV's, especially the 5th wheels and travel trailers, are not complicated at all. It's a crappy industry that gets by because they are all crappy and built about the same. The wait time for most repairs is insane and unacceptable also.

I will say we are happy with our Fuzion toy hauler but we bought it slightly used and the couple of issues the previous owner experienced had been repaired. One was the rear electric screen for the back patio. It was a known issue I guess and the screen was just replaced with a manual one. Works great and less complicated.

I think the local dealership is the key to happy ownership. Unfortunately, I've not heard a lot of good reviews about the local RV dealerships in Houston. We looked at new toy haulers yesterday and after waiting 30 minutes at Camping World we couldn't even get a sales person to show us what they had in stock. My wife and I walked the lot and not one person ever acknowledged us. I won't be buying from them after two bad experiences.

[gearhead]

I told my self if I traded again I would use CW. Figured it help getting service away from home.
Have you tried my favorite dealer? I bought at Katy but the 5th is at League City now for some service. A decent combo would be buy from John Hays at Katy and use League City for any service. But Katy might be getting better. I hear they had a big turnover in service.

[C130]

I told my self if I traded again I would use CW. Figured it help getting service away from home.
Have you tried my favorite dealer? I bought at Katy but the 5th is at League City now for some service. A decent combo would be buy from John Hays at Katy and use League City for any service. But Katy might be getting better. I hear they had a big turnover in service.

We looked at Holiday World mostly and I asked the sales guy about their service department. He actually brought up their past reputation first and how bad it had been before getting a new service manager. I'm not sure it's actually any better because when we were in Tennessee it got mention by someone at the Grand Design rally how they were having some issues with a few dealers and Holiday World was mentioned as one of their worst. I said great, that's would be my local Momentum dealer. I liked the fact they opened a store in Wilis which is close by to me but when the manufacturer says how bad the dealer is it doesn't give me much faith.

Camping World might be much better, I honestly don't know much about their service department. It was so hot and in the afternoon so maybe the guys were just exhausted, I know we were.

[gearhead]

I'm not surprised about the HW comments. Grand Design being a smaller manufacturer is likely more aware of dealer issues. We looked real hard at Grand Design but wanted the larger refrigerator in the Montana. Of course that is what gave us the most problems last year. Hopefully that is resolved.
Willis will be our last hope if League City is incapable of repairs.
That Katy salesman name is John Harris, not Hays. You could probably call him anything if he thinks you want to buy.

[Tbos]

For what it's worth, my passport 238ML has been trouble free. I had a loose connection under the bathroom sink but that occurred after several trips. All the other issues have been due to my not knowing how things work.

[LuvsPalmTrees]

I can say that our Laredo 294RK has been great. We had a few little warranty issues - nothing that stopped us from camping and like a previous poster said - your dealer is really important and we went with a mom & pop dealer instead of General RV or Campingworld - They are Circle K RV in Lapeer Michigan. We are about 60 miles from them but well worth the trip.

[1jeep]

were now on our 3rd trip with our new carbon 327 and still loving it, zero issues!

[Pull Toy]

The dealer never said I was underpowered?!?

The problem is not with the unit itself, it is with the individual dealer, and an incompetent "Factory Level" Customer Service Support Team.

My 3535RE Alpine, is among one of the finest rigs that I've owned, after giving up on the factory... and the dealer... and going rogue and doing it myself!

[JRTJH]

The dealer never said I was underpowered?!?

The problem is not with the unit itself, it is with the individual dealer, and an incompetent "Factory Level" Customer Service Support Team.

My 3535RE Alpine, is among one of the finest rigs that I've owned, after giving up on the factory... and the dealer... and going rogue and doing it myself!

No wonder the dealer never said you were underpowered. That looks like a "turbo model". Have you tried to pull a ski boat behind the trailer yet? Probably will have to engage "tow/haul" if you do, otherwise, you should be "good to go" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NavyDiver1980]

DW and I have gone from tents too pop ups to tag along to boats to a fifth wheel. The dealership experience (Camping in style, Whitby, On) has been fantastic. After using the RV for 5 months I have 1 issue. It looks like the tire manufacturer put a plug in the tire. I too had read about all of the bad reviews, a cousin who swore jayco was the absolute best rv manufacturer in the world (yet he has some issues!), I would highly recommend a Keystone product...but do a thourogh PDI!

[Blucaddy71]

I am currently looking at a 2004 Cougar m-314 EFS-----any one have any goods or bads?

[notanlines]

First of all, Caddy, welcome to the forum. Lots of good info here. Search function takes a little getting used to, but the info is there. Secondly, you are buy a unit that is 12 to 13 years old. How has it been maintained? Been on the highway for 60,000 miles? The roof look like it might keep water out? I could go on and on. Tires and roof are the main things I would look at first and then go on from there. Luck to you!:wlcm:

[Ken / Claudia]

No, I do not have one. But, advice is take a rv expert or pay someone to spend a few hours going over the whole RV. Unless you really know how and what good is vs bad vs rotten vs just clean. Many look great until you inspect them closely when they get 10 or so years old. And even 3 to 5 years old if not maintained.

[Model A Driver]

We love ours. Two years.. no problems except a dinette bench coming loose from the wall. I may have caused that.
For a lite weight it has all the amenities and construction materials I wanted. I would replace it with the same unit if something happened to it.

[Mutt]

All RV's are built like crap ..... regardless of brand. The trick is to find the manufacturer that builds his crap a little bit better than all the other guys. Keystone seems to be a step up from a lot of the lower end RV's out there. Sure there are things I don't like about my Keystone. But most of them are minor things that I feel comfortable just changing myself.

[Mike484]

RVs are high maintenance. If not maintained properly, it doesn't matter who built it, they can go to hell in a hand basket fast, especially if they ever get a water leak that doesn't get repaired immediately.

For the best insurance, find a dealer or repair shop that is willing to inspect it for you, may cost a couple hundred dollars, but that's a drop in a bucket compared to paying several thousand then finding out you bought something that will take several thousand more to repair or having to sell it at a huge loss to get rid of it. If the seller won't agree to let you get it inspected first, that should tell you all you need to know.

I see the same happen in the gyroplane world where someone who sees one on eBay or Craigslist thinks they are getting a good deal, then they bring it to us and find out they made a huge mistake and end up either selling it at a loss or spend more money on it than what they would have spent just buying a new one.

[dfb]

One of my biggest frustrations is taking the Rv in and having to bring it back for the same thing it was brought in for originally. It's just "little things" that I have fixed myself much better and much faster. Another frustration is the amount of time the item sits on a dealers lot for repairs.. Once, mine was waiting for 3 months!! My dealer mostly has been good and we are working bugs out. Much of this frustration should be prevented at the factory where it seems " no one" does quality control. The customer should not be the first place where things that should have been performed,at the factory, or dealerships are not. Only left for the customer to check things out on yhe road..and to either fix it yourself or wait for a dealer to fix..

[dcg9381]

. Once, mine was waiting for 3 months!! My dealer mostly has been good and we are working bugs out. Much of this frustration should be prevented at the factory where it seems " no one" does quality control.



There's an article here (http://www.rvbusiness.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/DigitalRVBusiness1111_12.pdf) about how (as an RV dealership) to stay clear of Lemon law issues in states where consumers have protection. Something about not taking appointments when you aren't able to work on the RV, notifying the manufacture about issues that are taking a "long time" to fix and escalating them, as well as engaging in consumer contact within 2 weeks.

I'm going on week 4 of a slide issue.. Dealership has yet to originate any call to me (ever) in regard to service being delayed or complete. Generally, after 2-3 weeks I call, which I don't think is unreasonable... I'm fairly understanding of long repair times (as long as I don't have to go back again) - but a little communication would be great.

[denverpilot]

I'll give them credit, they do seem to learn.

The new Laredos now have "fully painted front caps!" in the marketing material.

Of course that doesn't help those of us who's improperly made brown ones are turning chalky white because some plastic manufacturer didn't know how to pigment their plastic properly. A tiny percentage seem to have argued long and hard enough to get repainting paid for. Not all. Definitely not most.

You can wax improperly cured plastic and make it shiny all you like, it's still going to keep looking worse every year. Ask me how I know.

Funny how Keystone can turn down fixing it for most folks... and yet... tout the fix in their marketing material three years later as a "feature". Ha. Such hubris.

Wish I hadn't noticed the marketing material on the new ones. They've sure given me another reason to think they're really scummy.

I just fix the things that come up now myself and tell myself at least it hasn't been anything serious or mechanical.

If I would have used their stupid zerks to grease the wheel bearings, that would have been a mechanical and serious problem destroying my brakes, but great forums like this place warned about how stupid that little "feature" is.

You won't find that you're as likely to foul your brakes when greasing that way as not, in the owner's manual either.

Happy customer? Not really. Happy I have the trailer? Absolutely.

Any trailer company comes out sounding like they have a clue on these things and charges a little more and handles stuff properly under warranty? I'm there on my next one.

The consolidation in the industry destroyed competition. Not holding my breath for high quality craftsmanship to return.

[dfb]

To piggyback on Festus2 and sourdough's comments (although theirs are very clear and very accurate), if you buy a new truck and have a problem with the steering, or an issue with a door that won't stay closed, or even a "big hole in the roof" that fills the truck with water when it rains, if you call Chrysler World Headquarters in Auburn Hills, GM Corporate offices in Detroit or Ford Motor Company in Dearborn to discuss the problem with "customer service", you'll find that about halfway through your complaint, the CS representative will interrupt you and tell you that you MUST take your truck to the nearest dealership service department to have it inspected. They won't tell you that they will repair it, nor will they tell you when they will have it back to you, nor will they offer to pay you for your "troubles" caused by the problem. They will only instruct you to go to the dealer. Some may be more "compassionate" than others, some may seem "sympathetic and encouraging" some may seem "business like and short or curt" but none of them will "spring with a promise of a check for your troubles". I find it confusing why people think Keystone should operate any differently. They don't and they won't make promises they can't keep based on "one side of the story" provided by an emotional (or clearly level-headed) customer who is reporting "his side of the problem". They all use scripted, empathetic responses, aimed at de-escalating anger and moving the customer to the dealer's service department for resolution.

NONE of them, (nor KIA, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc) would take your address and send you a new roof, replacement door handle or steering box. Nor would they make any "promises" about when or how it would be repaired, nor would they offer reimbursement if you want to fix it yourself. If you complain that the problem is "ruining your vacation" you'll get empathy, but no promise of what/when the results will be finished. This is especially true before the dealer has confirmed for the manufacturer, that there "really is a problem"......

It's not "that bad CS at Keystone", nor is it "that bad Jayco" It's the way manufacturers do business with complex items. We all know of the "guy that called the company and they sent him extra parts he didn't need and now he "got one over on the company and has spare parts because he "fudged the truth" and somebody fell for it. As companies grow and more and more customers "try that tactic" companies grow more firm in their requirement to verify the problem at the dealership before they even discuss solutions. Most will only discuss those solutions with the dealer, not with the customer. That "middleman" called the "company representative" is the "go between" for the manufacturer. You're "HIS" customer, not "Keystone's customer" when it comes to servicing your RV. They built it, but the dealer is responsible to repair it during the warranty. If it may need to be returned to the factory, he and the manufacturer make that decision, it's not predicated on the desires of the customer, but the complexity of the repair and whether or not it can be accomplished in the field. Their objective is to repair it properly for the least amount of money. It's not determined by the desires of the customer so he can be "assured it's done right". Their objective is that it's going to be done right "wherever it's repaired". That may not always happen, but it's the objective.

In today's competitive market, with the exception of a very few "we'll make it right" small ticket manufacturers who will send "commonly failed items" to the customer, you won't get "spare parts" or "legitimate replacements for failed parts" with a phone call. Companies just don't do that any more. Don't blame Keystone, Jayco, Ford, Chrysler or GM for not being responsive. It's the way they all do business today.

Sometimes people think: It's my house, it's where I live when on vacation, so I should get a priority and special treatment because I have a problem. If you look at it from Keystone's perspective, every customer with a problem with his "house, where he lives on vacation" expects that same "special treatment". Where then, do the "average, run of the mill" problems get placed? How can "every problem" get "right now treatment"? How can "you be the only priority"?

Are you being realistic when you demand that some "voice" on the other end of the phone in Goshen be able to effect an "immediate resolution to your priority" when it isn't within their scope and it isn't done in any other business of the same complexity?
I had a positive experience with Chrysler. When my lift pump on my ram went south, it was out of warranty on both time and mileage. I asked for some help and they told me to pay the 100 deductible and the dealer fixed the truck. On another occasion, they did the same thing on replacing u joints. This may be because I have purchased many of yheir products.. However, it is this kind of support that will keep customers coming back and contribute to new customers.

[JRTJH]

I had a positive experience with Chrysler. When my lift pump on my ram went south, it was out of warranty on both time and mileage. I asked for some help and they told me to pay the 100 deductible and the dealer fixed the truck. On another occasion, they did the same thing on replacing u joints. This may be because I have purchased many of yheir products.. However, it is this kind of support that will keep customers coming back and contribute to new customers.

dfb,

You have a habit of "reviving old threads" and making a comment that really doesn't add any "new information" or unravel any "old mystery". We've discussed this privately in PM's.

In response to your comment (although there's really no reason to respond), this forum is filled with many, many posts indicating that Keystone does exactly what you're comments reflect Chrysler did for you. It's no "secret" that "this kind of support will keep customers coming back".