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JRTJH
03-26-2015, 09:10 AM
Rather than go off topic with a current thread concerning towing "close to" or "over the limit", I decided to start a new thread as a place to exchange opinions. This way, we are not "hijacking" another thread.

Some people make the assumption that being "close" is "good enough" when it comes to payload, GVW and GCWR. I've heard many times, "If you're OK on axle weight, don't worry about the GVW" and I've heard, "You can decide whether to use the GVW or the Axle Ratings, you don't need to follow both". Unfortunately, neither of those is correct according to the Ford, GM or RAM owner's manuals. If, "close is good enough," then the same argument can be made with the airlines, "just stack in a few more passengers and add more fuel." We can make this jet fly further than it's designed to fly and make more money. Or with the Greyhound, "just put an overhead rail and let passengers stand" or with child seats, "put two kids in one booster chair, it'll be OK"..... There's a reason why safety limits are ALWAYS conservative. If they were "on the other end" they wouldn't be "safe".....

We've seen and heard on this forum a number of times, "My rig tows great, it's rock solid and doesn't strain towing and my transmission doesn't overheat, so I'm sure it's OK." Is that really the truth? or is it just that so far, they haven't been in the situation where everything is right to lose control? Statistically, many will never encounter that situation where it all goes bad, but for those who do? Having a rig that is outside the control design limits makes it even harder to avoid damage/injury when that situation occurs. Do any of us know with any certainty, that we won't ever encounter those situations?

As I've said a number of times, it's only a matter of "when" before the states figure out how lucrative the fines can be if they start weighing RV's and enforcing payload/GVW limits. When that happens, the owners of these overloaded rigs will be "crying loudly" that it's unfair to fine me, I've never had an accident.... Just how far will the argument, "But officer, the manufacturer built in a "fudge factor" so I'm OK." The vehicle manufacturers place their engineering limitations on the vehicles for a reason, it's not "arbitrary" or "guessed" but an engineering limitation to prevent product failure. What the "upper limit" really (or could be) is as much "product reliability" as it is "safety related".

As an example, imagine an axle "designed" to support 10500 pounds, rated and used at 10000 pounds. Would every axle fail at 11000 Likely not, but somewhere above 10500 they all will fail. Is it 12003? If so, why not just rate all of them at 12002? Why at 10000? Because the manufacturing process can't be "exact enough" to guarantee none will fail until loaded above 12003, some may fail at 10999, or even at 10501. But the manufacturer can be sure that they will all function as designed at 10000. So, rate them all "SAFELY" at 10000 and you KNOW your product is safe AND reliable..... So, is there a "safe zone" above the rating? Maybe so, maybe not. It depends on the manufacturing process which isn't "exact". Some will/some won't.... Which one is in your truck?????

Would I feel "comfortable" pushing the limit and going over "a few pounds"... No, I wouldn't (that's my choice), and I don't have to worry about it because I calculated my rig's real weight and figured in a "cushion" that allows me "not to have a need to even "go there"...... Unfortunately, too many "novice" RV'ers don't even have a clue. They go looking, fall in love with and buy a 36' travel trailer with all the bells and whistles, have a "low powered half ton short wheelbase truck, get "promised it'll work" by the salesman so they "think they're OK".... They may go several thousand miles without a problem, so they "convince themselves" they're OK.... but what's really happening to the mechanics of their truck? to the safety of the people who share the road? to their family, sitting in the back seat watching videos, unaware of the overloaded condition that their "protector" has placed them in? What happens to them and their rig when they do encounter that event where all the cards are stacked against them and their rig is over the limit? Will they have the advantage of being within the design limits or will they be relying on luck to pull them through? Have they followed all the design limitations and followed all the safety parameters, or have they exceeded one or more and placed themselves, their family and others in danger because they didn't know, or worse, made the inappropriate decision to "just ignore the limits" because "there must be some leeway built in".... Is that responsible? or is that fool-hardy" ????

I'm not "really concerned about the safety" of someone who has a trailer pin weight that puts their truck 45 pounds over their payload, but I am sincerely concerned with someone who believes a F250 with a payload of 2700 pounds can somehow carry 800 pounds of passengers, 800 pounds of hitch and cargo AND tow a fifth wheel with an empty pin weight of 3100 pounds. Oh well, just add airbags, you'll be OK, it's level isn't it?

Now the question would be: How much overload is OK and how much is "too much"??? That's the debate that owners get into when they "justify just a little bit more".... and there's only one "correct answer" to that question...

There's a lot more to towing safety than just being "close to the payload, my truck's level and my transmission doesn't overheat"....

That's my opinion, I'm sure I'll open a "hornet's nest" of criticism, but safety for myself, my family and others that share the busy, crowded highways with me is important. I don't like to see unsafe, overloaded rigs on the highways. If there were a reliable mechanism to report them and get them off the highways, I'd be the first to advocate using that reporting system.

My final thought: Should the forum and its individual members accept the responsibility for what goes wrong by stating that it's OK to tow overloaded? My answer: By no means would I suggest that response !!!

Let the flames begin !!!!! http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/jobs/firefighter-smiley-emoticon.gif (http://www.sherv.net/)

GmaPaTime
03-26-2015, 09:48 AM
Double thumbs up John.... :D

hemisareslow
03-26-2015, 10:24 AM
I couldn't agree more! To add to your thoughts.....I am the fleet manager at a Chevrolet Dealer in upstate NY....some of our half ton trucks have tow ratings of 11,000 pounds....just because something is rated for a weight, does not mean it is safe or should be done. Would I use a half ton truck to tow a 10,500 pound trailer from my house to my seasonal spot 2 times a year 50 miles down the road with my wife and kid following me....sure. Would I have driven the half ton the 450 miles to RV wholesalers and dragged a new 10,500 pound camper back? Nope. This is just my personal opinion of course....but I own a 3500 SRW duramax and I know that when I pull 10,000+ pounds I know its back there, I can feel it push and pull the truck and I also know when I hit the brakes I have the suspension, frame, brakes and heft of my tow vehicle to help me stop......I'm not sure how comfortable I would feel doing the same in a half ton!

Ken / Claudia
03-26-2015, 10:39 AM
John, you have made all good points. I have wanted to compare overloading a truck and rv to overloading my boat and crossing the bar into the pacific or overloading a aircraft and flying anyway. All can and will have bad endings at some point. Is that comparing apples to oranges?. So far at least here in Oregon RVs are down below the radar as weight enforcement. My opinion is that is so only because of the few accidents compared to passenger vehicles and comm vehicles traveling on the roads. That could change at any time as you said. On here at the very least we can do is attempt to show or explain what those GVWR, CGVWR, payload mean and encourage all to go to the scales to get real weight.

Desert185
03-26-2015, 11:10 AM
Basic answer...everyone should accept responsibility for their actions, but if we keep emphasizing that an overweight issue may exist on more than an irregular basis, despite there being no/minimal accident data to substantiate the claim and concerns, then some pinheaded bureaucrat may be diverted from doing what needs to be done and begin to legislate a solution for a problem that essentially doesn't exist (I know...too late). We have enough problems in this world without legislating towing requirements more than we already have without considering the unintended consequences. The last thing I want to do is get in the conga line at a highway inspection station every time I run across one on a road trip. Another loss of freedom for what gain?

On many levels in life, it is possible to actually be safe without being legal.

GaryWT
03-26-2015, 11:13 AM
And I could cross the street and get hit by a bus tomorrow...

That said, many people do crazy things, what about the people who pass you on the highway towing or not, going 85 mph, if towing, does not matter what the weight is, something bad will happen.

I know many people do not know enough about weights or don't want to know but I hate weight police on line, some are not nice (other sites...). If I read something that does not seem good, I try to suggest they look at there numbers but if they are close I wish them good luck. I do believe there is some safety built into the numbers but as you said, who knows how much. It is at least enough to cover the warrenties on the trucks but beyong that who knows. If you need to add equipment to the truck beyound the hitch then I say you need to rethink what you are doing.

For 3 years I towed with a 150, I was close but felt I was in line, especially the first 2 years, the 3rd year we upgraded the trailer which made us real close. When I have my life changing event, I decided I wanted the 350 and went and got one, now I do not give towing a second thought.

Have not seen the flames yet though...

Quad
03-26-2015, 11:19 AM
Agree totally, x2!


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OurLuckyPenny
03-26-2015, 12:19 PM
One could also argue that other factors enter into the question of safe rving on our highways---for example, the kind of driver that is behind the wheel of that rig barreling down the highway.

If we decided that everyone should be forced to check weight allowances at every truck weighing station, shouldn't we also require that every driver pass a performance test at the same time to show skill (or lack thereof) at handling their rig?

Of course this could quickly get into absurdity, so what is the happy medium? The weight hauling capability is certainly something that should not be taken lightly. So is the skill and attitude of the driver controlling the rig, in my humble opinion.

Luckily,in my neck of the woods (Four Corners and south into Arizona), I have seen very few, if any, accidents involving rv's over the years. I HAVE however, on numerous occasions been rudely passed by rv rig drivers with the pedal to the metal. That when I was traveling at/near the speed limit. My recollections are that more of these drivers are pulling fifth wheels than travel trailers. I can fondly recall remarking to my better half, "what the hell are those bozos in such a hurry to get to?????

So, let's hear it for much more emphasis on proper training and driving skills for the person behind the wheel. Just because someone is driving a rig that meets or exceeds all weight limit requirements does not guarantee that they will maneuver it properly down the highway!!

Iresqu
03-26-2015, 12:23 PM
I'm glad someone finally posted a thread about towing at or above max weights. I've been towing smaller trailers with my 350 spice never really worried if I was towing too much, however this year we upgraded to a 5ver and it has had me thinking more about what my actual weights are. I've never been to a scale and now with this new 5ver I'm really wanting to know where I'm at as far as weights are concerned. Since I've never been to the scales (and probably a large portion of people who read these posts hasn't either), maybe someone with experience could write about how to get the weights. You know the what to expect? Where? How much? If even one person who reads this thread is convinced about how important it is to know your limits, then this has been a successful thread. Not to mention how much safer they'll be on the roads.

sourdough
03-26-2015, 12:35 PM
Excellent points John. The various weight factors are confusing to some folks and when an issue is pointed out they are appreciative. I think others know they are overloaded and don't think it's an issue or don't care - some get angry if you point it out as we've seen in some posts. Either way they are ultimately endangering themselves and others. As you stated, a person doesn't know which overloaded component was built "extra strong" or "just barely strong enough". When that "oh! no!" moment comes they are going to find out WHY there are weight limitations. They may have towed 100,000 miles and been lucky, but, once the dominoes start falling they tend to cascade pretty quickly. In my opinion a prudent, safe person knows the weights and stays under them with a safety margin. The lives of your wife, family, puppy and others on the road depend on it.

In my previous life (prior to my retirement life"bouncey:) I used to be invited to give safety meetings. In some of them I related personal experiences. When stressing to employees the importance of being safe ALL the time I told them the only times I have been in serious or deadly accidents I never knew it beforehand. I knew what happened after I woke up. Unfortunately, in some instances, some didn't wake up (none my fault). Waking up in total silence with dead and semi dead people around you isn't fun (none my family). I can't imagine if any had been my family. That's the way it happens. In an overload situation, when the catalyst happens, it won't be a "lights out", wake up and wonder what happened. It will be a slow motion twisting, flipping, screaming, screeching nightmare. God forbid anyone having to watch their wife or children go thru that because they wanted to "fudge" a bit.

All that to say NO we should not condone towing overloaded or say it is OK. Should we point out what appears to be an overload situation based on the info provided in someone's post? I think we should point it out. Some take it to heart and some don't want to hear it but I would rather point it out in case the individual was unaware.....jm2cents (maybe 5 :) )

JRTJH
03-26-2015, 12:39 PM
Iresqu ,

Here is a thread concerning CAT Scales, how to use them and what to expect.

If you haven't weighed your rig, you're really, REALLY towing "in the blind". http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15888&highlight=scales

Another good site for information is here: http://fifthwheelst.com/weighing-guide.html

Iresqu
03-26-2015, 01:05 PM
Iresqu ,

Here is a thread concerning CAT Scales, how to use them and what to expect.

If you haven't weighed your rig, you're really, REALLY towing "in the blind". http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15888&highlight=scales

Another good site for information is here: http://fifthwheelst.com/weighing-guide.html

Thanks for the info!

Dave-Gray
03-26-2015, 02:18 PM
Most excellent thread, John! I'm glad you mentioned Fifth Wheel St. which is dedicated to RVing safety.

As for not saying "if," but "when," there is a new true story (http://goo.gl/vOeqEM) segment at FWS where Scott and Heather shared their horrifying experience.

Obviously, not all RV accidents are directly related to overloading or mismatched towing combinations, but my gut feeling is that if some hadn't pushed the weight safety limits so much, many accidents may have been less severe, or avoided all together.

http://goo.gl/i1Qtp1

EricLynnAllison
03-26-2015, 02:44 PM
Something used at capacity doesn't mean it will last forever at capacity. Material fatigue has to be considered. Any item used at half capacity will last longer than something used at capacity. Capacities are engineered with a life span that is not usually documented. It is usually documented as capacity at normal use.

therink
03-26-2015, 02:58 PM
I have been towing 10,000 lb + fifth wheels now for about 5 years and heavy travel trailers long before that. I was towing a 11,500 lb fiver with a 2008 GM 2500 HD for a one season. Did the truck handle OK? Yes. However, with the family on board and hitched up, I scaled the truck and was about 500 lbs over the trucks gvwr. This didn't site right with me so I moved to a one ton SRW. Since then, I feel good with the fact that I am towing well within the "posted" ratings of my truck. It was a personal and smart decision. My family is the most important thing Is have. Being considerate of the safety of others comes next.

larry337
03-26-2015, 02:59 PM
Honestly..... as a professional truck driver, you have much bigger safety concerns all around you on our roads and highways. I see accidents on a weekly basis, lots of them bad ones. In my opinion most are caused by aggressive driving or distracted driving. I realize this is an RV forum so that is what we are focused on but I rarely ever see an accident involving an RV. Matter of fact I rarely see an RV on the side of the road. But I do see smaller utility trailers and boat trailers on the side. Most of them old and probably had a wheel bearing or tire failure. I'm not going to say your wrong to bring it up but I don't see it as major problem on our highways. That said I also don't condone 3-4000 lb pin weights on 3/4 ton trucks. I just don't think it's a big enough problem to get worked up over and I also don't want to be over regulated and have my trip interrupted with safety inspections. If we were to do anything I think it should be geared toward aggressive drivers, tailgaters, texting, and distracted drivers. Though I don't know how that gets regulated, above my pay grade. Not to mention all the unsafe cars out there with worn out rusted brakes, suspension components, bald tires and lights that don't work. I think RVs are small potatoes in the large scheme of things. I think it's okay to point it out on these forums but some people seem to be obsessed with it. Before you all flame me remember, you asked me! [emoji1]

larry337
03-26-2015, 03:07 PM
Forgot to mention drunk drivers and fatigued drivers. Again RVs are the least of my worries.

C130
03-26-2015, 03:24 PM
Honestly..... as a professional truck driver, you have much bigger safety concerns all around you on our roads and highways. I see accidents on a weekly basis, lots of them bad ones. In my opinion most are caused by aggressive driving or distracted driving. I realize this is an RV forum so that is what we are focused on but I rarely ever see an accident involving an RV. Matter of fact I rarely see an RV on the side of the road. But I do see smaller utility trailers and boat trailers on the side. Most of them old and probably had a wheel bearing or tire failure. I'm not going to say your wrong to bring it up but I don't see it as major problem on our highways. That said I also don't condone 3-4000 lb pin weights on 3/4 ton trucks. I just don't think it's a big enough problem to get worked up over and I also don't want to be over regulated and have my trip interrupted with safety inspections. If we were to do anything I think it should be geared toward aggressive drivers, tailgaters, texting, and distracted drivers. Though I don't know how that gets regulated, above my pay grade. Not to mention all the unsafe cars out there with worn out rusted brakes, suspension components, bald tires and lights that don't work. I think RVs are small potatoes in the large scheme of things. I think it's okay to point it out on these forums but some people seem to be obsessed with it. Before you all flame me remember, you asked me! [emoji1]


Very nice post and agree 100%. This topic has been and will be discussed forever and won't change in my opinion anytime soon, if ever. I'm not saying its okay to tow overweight, just saying its a non issue as far as RV related accidents in my opinion. If it's regulated the RV industry would be out of business pretty quick I think. Most RV owners aren't going go buy a 1 ton SRW, let alone a dually. Out of all the things I can think of related to driving and safety I'd put RV's at the very bottom. Of course if one is involved in an accident and the right person ( RV knowledge) is involved it could spell disaster for the person towing the RV illegally. I prefer to be safe and legal but really don't see any real accident issues related with 5th wheel towing. Saying that, I think you're crazy to haul a 40 foot plus toy hauler with an F250/2500.

As far as aircraft and weights, there's a lot of variance there also. None of the passengers are weighed and neither is their carry on luggage. It's all an "average". It's regulated to death but meanwhile still uses just an average weight.

sourdough
03-26-2015, 03:31 PM
larry337 - I don't think anyone is getting "worked up" over overweight vehicles. The original question was if it should be condoned or say it is "OK". Obviously, many people pull overweight, and yes, RV accidents don't compare to conventional accidents.....but there are far less RVs than cars/pickups/trucks.

Aggressive, drunk, distracted etc. drivers are THE biggest problem on the road but not the focus of an RV forum. I drive about 100k miles a year and have for many, many years. I too see lots of accidents and most are not RVs but I have seen quite a few. We don't get to offer advice or counsel to the kinds of drivers mentioned but they are "out there" and we have to deal with them in whatever way we have to.

On this forum when someone posts information that shows that they are, or could be, overweight I think it is proper to mention it. You don't have to be mean spirited or pushy, just informative. Some don't have any idea; some think they may be but don't know and don't know how to find out; some are and don't care. I think it behooves a person to try to help another person if it is possible.

To me a person buys an RV for fun and relaxation; a way to take the family, friends and others away from the normal hum drum of daily life to have new, wonderful experiences. Why would anyone knowingly put all of that at risk by overloading their vehicle or RV? I don't know that question and have to assume it is either ignorance (not a bad thing) or arrogance. The former you can fix, the latter not so much. I just think it's right to point it out to hopefully help someone. Some folks get in a pickle by buying too big and can't afford another TV or smaller trailer. At that point I guess they will use what they have and hopefully be knowledgeable of the situation they are in and upgrade when they can. I was in that position on my last RV purchase; I figured I would be OK but when scaled.....I wasn't. I was over by 400lbs. I couldn't accept living with that so had a new truck within 60 days....but that's just me.

notanlines
03-26-2015, 03:35 PM
Brenda and I drive about a total of 50,000 miles a year. Larry, we both agree with you. We are certainly not condoning towing over limits, but the problem is way, way down the list of problems on the highway. We also enjoy this discussion, however. It does bring out the best in all of us.

buzzcop63
03-26-2015, 04:01 PM
Larry337:
I think all the above comments have value and so does what Larry has added. What kind of problems can this Forum help eliminate to make RVing more fun and safer by knowing the numbers, by weighing your truck and trailer by reading the different subjects, here are just a few!
White knuckle driving each time a truck passes you
Going up hills on the side of the road at 25 to 30MPH
Going down hill with sweat poring off your face trying to slow down!
Having tires blow out because they are too old
Having tires blow out because your Trailer is too heavy
Having tires blow out because you drive too fast
Having tries blow out because they do not have correct PSI
Their are a ton more and if we beat to death one topic, so be it, it gives us an outlet to talk about what we enjoy doing and it helps those who are not as interested in the details they just want to mount up and go!

C130
03-26-2015, 04:31 PM
What's weird to me is some of the most anal people I know will tow their 5th wheel thousands of pounds overweight and then tell me it "pulls great" and they can't even tell it's back there. I've yet to pull any trailer of any significant size and not be able to tell its back there. I have some pilot friends pulling some humongous toy haulers (over 41 feet) with F250's and a 350 SRW. They are some of the most particular, by the book, anal guys I know but they will act like I'm crazy when I tell them how overweight they are. Honestly, I think it's the pilot in them and they just won't admit to making a mistake which is not uncommon in my career field. I also think a lot of people buy the 3/4 ton diesels and just assume they can pull anything. I know that's what I thought when I bought my F250 in 2011.

I make a living at my airline by checking and evaluating our pilots and having to make sure they uphold our (airline and FAA) required standards and regulations. I'm used to dealing with the government and the thousands of rules and regulations in probably the most regulated industry in the world. One thing I've learned is our government likes to change their focus based on any one hot issue that might arise and it might change at any time, any day. One major accident affecting the right person and their family and the government could wreak havoc on the RV industry and the large trailers being pulled and lack of any real regulation.

Festus2
03-26-2015, 05:10 PM
.

My final thought: Should the forum and its individual members accept the responsibility for what goes wrong by stating that it's OK to tow overloaded? ]

As a long time forum member, I think I have a responsibility to help a member to make a wise choice. Towing overloaded is not a wise choice. We can debate all day and night what constitutes being "overloaded". Is 100 lbs acceptable? Is 200 lbs okay? Is being "close" alright? How close is close?
How many times have we heard, "I'm close but I should be okay." Maybe. Maybe not.

Helping would include providing him with the basic tools so that he can use them to come to an informed decision. In the end, it is his/her decision to make and what that person does with all the numbers and all of the advice is out of my control. I am not responsible for the decision someone else makes.

Some members who ask "Will my truck tow this?" or "What do I need to tow my new Raptor 415"? have never towed a thing in their life and are genuinely interested in finding the best and safest match. We are here to help them in their search and to give them the best advice possible.

Other members already have a truck and have just bought "X" RV and look for confirmation from us. "Will it be okay?", they ask. Some of these folks have been told by the RV salesman that you'll have no problems. Others have friends who have the same or similar setups and "have had no issues whatsoever". Or they have seen the same RV being pulled by "Y" truck all the time. So what's the problem? I see all sorts of people that are probably overloaded. They're doing it, nothing's happened to them so it must be ok. And then we have others who get really upset when they read on here that they are "overweight". It's those darn forum "weight police" again --- why don't they mind their own business??

It has been said that being overweight is not a big deal in the big picture or that it is a non issue. Instead of spending too much time trying to encourage folks to stay within the limits, we might be better off devoting our time and energy on promoting safe driving habits. These are extremely important factors "in the big picture" of driving any vehicle - including RV's. Any responsible RV owner would ensure that safe driving is being practiced as well as ensuring that his rig is not overloaded. They go together and do make up "the big picture".

Short answer to John's question --- no. (Why did it take me so long to get here?)

Hansel
03-26-2015, 08:26 PM
Well I will chime in on this and hopefully not get punished for my comment or mind set, I have a 01 F-250 with a 8800lb GVWR but after taking it too the scale's is came in right at 7700lbs so that leaves me 1100lbs of payload (pin weight) I've researched on-line at the 1/2 ton towable 5th wheels and even those will be pushing the limit's but I might have found one that has come in just under 8000lbs with the features we want. I know it's not an exact science because those posted weight's can and usually are higher but let's just say if I go over the 8800lbs GVWR say by 200-300lbs I think might be acceptable, I mean I'm not or never would go crazy and overload the truck by like 1000lbs but I don't see a huge concern with a few hundred pounds. I've seen more than my share of RV's (5th wheels) that the truck is obviously over weight with the headlights pointing in the sky.

chuckster57
03-26-2015, 08:47 PM
This is a touchy subject with me. Since I am the guy doing your walk through, showing you how everything works in your new fiver that weighs 12,500 pounds without anything in it, and is 39' long. I ask " have you RV'd before?" The answer is "No, never towed anything but a utility trailer to the dumps."

After 3 hours of sensory overload, I guide his 3/4 ton truck under the king pin and wish him well. I have been told by my boss " not our job to tell him he's overloaded, that's sales job."

Desert185
03-26-2015, 08:51 PM
I worked for somebody like that once and was glad the day I left.

mamawildbear
03-26-2015, 10:22 PM
You all are making me nervous with this overloaded talk. I would imagine that the main reason people might be driving on the edge (or over) their towing capacity is ignorance. I have no idea how to find a weigh station or how to use one. We've been towing for 5 years having no idea what anything weighed but until November we had a popup so the weights never got into the range to possibly matter so there was no need to know.

Now we have a TT and I am feeling dangerously ignorant but I'm making a plan. I followed all of your links and read up on everything so now know how to find a scale and the protocol used there.

So if I understand properly, I can pull up with the trailer and weigh just the truck (both with and without the weight distribution bars for comparison) and that can help me figure out the tongue weight. Somewhere I read that should be 10%-12% but I don't know 10-12% of what?

Then I can weigh everything to get the GCVW and compare that to the GCWR for my truck to find out if I am overloaded.

Finally I can weigh just the truck to get the GVW.
GCVW - GVW would be the weight of my loaded camper so I can make sure I haven't loaded it over its capacity as well.

Does that about sum it up? If this gives my hubby the excuse he needs to get a bigger truck, I'm going to have to come back here and kill you all because all he needs is one little excuse....

But one final question. I was always told to look at the GCWR for your vehicle and try not to have a GCVW over 75% of that. Is that reasonable? Too conservative? I would not want to exceed the GCWR but how close can I (or should I) get to that number? So that's a slight twist on your thread which asks is it ok to overload and I'm asking is it ok to fully load?

This is really putting my weekly Weight Watcher's weigh-ins into perspective (and yes, I'm slightly overloaded there as well). :0

Hansel
03-27-2015, 04:02 AM
This is a touchy subject with me. Since I am the guy doing your walk through, showing you how everything works in your new fiver that weighs 12,500 pounds without anything in it, and is 39' long. I ask " have you RV'd before?" The answer is "No, never towed anything but a utility trailer to the dumps."

After 3 hours of sensory overload, I guide his 3/4 ton truck under the king pin and wish him well. I have been told by my boss " not our job to tell him he's overloaded, that's sales job."

I witnessed a sales person telling a guy that a F-250 would tow this 40+ft 5th wheel that probably weighed in over 10K easy. Now he was or did look up the towing specs for a 2015 truck, but I made the comment of get the largest truck possible (F-450) that would be the only way I would be comfortable towing the huge beast of a 5th wheel we where in.

{tpc}
03-27-2015, 04:21 AM
I'd like to know how one uses a states weigh scale (or if you can?), and how much might the charge be? There are no cat scales within an hour or so of me. I know of a scrap yard that has scales, but not sure if they are of the same type, and I'm a little leary that I might pick up a nail or something like that there.

JRTJH
03-27-2015, 04:53 AM
I'd like to know how one uses a states weigh scale (or if you can?), and how much might the charge be? There are no cat scales within an hour or so of me. I know of a scrap yard that has scales, but not sure if they are of the same type, and I'm a little leary that I might pick up a nail or something like that there.

There are two CAT scales in that area. One is about 28 miles away: Madco Truck Plaza I-94 & Exit 200 Romulus, MI and the other is about 30 miles away: Sunrise Store I-69, Exit 176 Capac, MI. You're right, neither is really "convenient" to Shelby Township, but you may find yourself heading in either direction on one of your camping trips.

To my knowledge, Michigan does not leave the scales operational when weigh stations are closed. The only other alternative I could suggest is either an auto salvage yard or a construction company that is involved in moving rock/gravel. They usually have a scale, but some don't offer weigh services to the public. Also, if their scale is like the ones at gravel pits around here, it will only be about 30' long, so you'd end up disconnecting, weighing everything separately and then trying to decipher what your weights are when hitched. It will work, but the CAT system is much better geared to a "clean weight" for the whole rig as it sits ready to tow......

{tpc}
03-27-2015, 07:57 AM
There are two CAT scales in that area. One is about 28 miles away: Madco Truck Plaza I-94 & Exit 200 Romulus, MI and the other is about 30 miles away: Sunrise Store I-69, Exit 176 Capac, MI. You're right, neither is really "convenient" to Shelby Township, but you may find yourself heading in either direction on one of your camping trips.

To my knowledge, Michigan does not leave the scales operational when weigh stations are closed. The only other alternative I could suggest is either an auto salvage yard or a construction company that is involved in moving rock/gravel. They usually have a scale, but some don't offer weigh services to the public. Also, if their scale is like the ones at gravel pits around here, it will only be about 30' long, so you'd end up disconnecting, weighing everything separately and then trying to decipher what your weights are when hitched. It will work, but the CAT system is much better geared to a "clean weight" for the whole rig as it sits ready to tow......

Thanks for the info JRTJH! I think what I may do is get the tongue weight scale and use that, just for a bit of piece of mind on that whole thing, and then next trip that brings me across one of these two stations I will weigh at the CAT there. We are taking one trip in June, which will be a longer trip headed to Niagra Falls, and we will be at likely max capacity for that trip with gear and occupants. So it should be the most worst case scenario I can imagine. There is another one we are thinking about in may that would be similar, and may run me across the Romulus one on the way into ohio.

For the record, when I say max capacity or worst case, I don't mean running up on the sticker limits...I just mean that I can't forsee an opportunity that I might have more stuff in the camper or people in the truck. So that should be a fairly accurate assessment of whether or not I am at where I need to be. :)

x96mnn
03-27-2015, 10:56 AM
First, great post and great responses.

Personally I have towed over loaded by a lot and hated it. I have towed under but close and hated it. I have towed well under and love it, that's my compfort zone. Have close to 6000pds of payload available and 19000ish pds of towing, but the new horizons I am looking at is 21000 pds dry and it will come with a truck.

Is towing a couple pounds to 300 pounds over a huge issue? I think it handles poorly, I think you run at limited liability, can't say I wouldn't do it if I had to and depending my situation. If 300 is ok how about 301? If that's ok 302 has to be too? I will state I am not too concerned about those people, again they need to accept the limited liability but they are at the end of the day in the same boat as the guy with a250 and 1000 pds over. Same liability.

My opinion, towing over your weights is a liability. Today it may be a limited liability but it exists, with 3x the campers on the roads today it is just a matter of time that the right person, in the wrong place gets hit by the people who feel there are no rules. The outcome will be a more regulated industry.

"Should the forum and its individual members accept the responsibility for what goes wrong by stating that it's OK to tow overloaded? My answer: By no means would I suggest that response !!! "

I do not think a member could be held responsible, but after the successful affluenza defence, the right person put in a bad situation looking to share or leverage blame could very well try it. I have started to make it a point to use the terms, I would and I would not. Make it clear I am not them, only what I would do.

jsmith948
03-27-2015, 01:57 PM
Thank you, John. This is a great thread with some really great posts/comments.
I absolutely agree that we should NOT advocate towing overloaded. Have I ever done so? Yes. Our first 'RV' was a 1972 C10 Chevy. Straight six with a three speed. 15" car tires. Bought it to tow our dune buggy to the coast. We slept in a tent. Upgraded to a used wilderness 8ft cab-over camper constructed of 3/4" plywood covered with aluminum. HEAVY camper, corvair powered dune buggy on a trailer with no brakes, extra tires/wheels, extra gas, parts, tools, firewood, water, food, etc.
But we were ok, had Helwig overloads and had changed to split-ring Dayton wheels with 7.50x15 nylon tires! Could not stop the thing !!!
Today we're a bit older and a little wiser. After many, many, many miles (about 2.5 million) in a semi, I have learned to load legal, drive the speed limit, and save a little for tomorrow!
Those of you who drive fast in overloaded rigs are simply gambling. Just sayin":)

larry337
03-27-2015, 02:35 PM
Thank you, John. This is a great thread with some really great posts/comments.
I absolutely agree that we should NOT advocate towing overloaded. Have I ever done so? Yes. Our first 'RV' was a 1972 C10 Chevy. Straight six with a three speed. 15" car tires. Bought it to tow our dune buggy to the coast. We slept in a tent. Upgraded to a used wilderness 8ft cab-over camper constructed of 3/4" plywood covered with aluminum. HEAVY camper, corvair powered dune buggy on a trailer with no brakes, extra tires/wheels, extra gas, parts, tools, firewood, water, food, etc.
But we were ok, had Helwig overloads and had changed to split-ring Dayton wheels with 7.50x15 nylon tires! Could not stop the thing !!!
Today we're a bit older and a little wiser. After many, many, many miles (about 2.5 million) in a semi, I have learned to load legal, drive the speed limit, and save a little for tomorrow!
Those of you who drive fast in overloaded rigs are simply gambling. Just sayin":)

I was going to add that today's tow vehicles are monsters compared to what we had 30-40 years ago, even 15-20 years ago. I remember when a Crown Victoria was considered a tow vehicle. The technology and performance are huge improvements. Better tires, brakes, anti sway features, exhaust brakes and on and on. I'll say again RV's as a whole are not the problems on today's highways. I'm on other forums too and I guess I just get tired of the same ole discussions, sometimes passionate if not even heated, over and over again. People will ask their questions and do what they want anyway. The majority of them eventually learn the same way we did. A driver knows when his rig is unsafe. Pride sometimes prevents him from admitting it but he knows. And next thing you know he has a bigger truck. No I do not think we should condone or endorse overloaded situations. A lot of times I just stay out of it but I read the answers for amusement. When someone asks the questions, provide the answers and let it go. Some people listen and learn some have to try it for themselves.

Festus2
03-27-2015, 03:01 PM
People will ask their questions and do what they want anyway. The majority of them eventually learn the same way we did. When someone asks the questions, provide the answers and let it go. Some people listen and learn some have to try it for themselves.

Larry -
You have made some very excellent points all of which pretty much sums up this discussion about overloaded rigs.
I think that you may have inadvertently omitted those folks who don't ask any questions. It's not because they don't care, they just don't know anything about towing and make incorrect assumptions. Just because they have "towed" a small utility trailer or little popup behind their truck, they assume that the truck should be able to tow their brand new 35 foot TT. Or they have a "truck". Trucks pull things - small things, big things. What's to ask?

But you are right. The fellow beating a dead horse below your post ....... what do they say about a picture being worth a 1000 words? Let it go. The horse is dead.

larry337
03-27-2015, 03:40 PM
Larry -
You have made some very excellent points all of which pretty much sums up this discussion about overloaded rigs.
I think that you may have inadvertently omitted those folks who don't ask any questions. It's not because they don't care, they just don't know anything about towing and make incorrect assumptions. Just because they have "towed" a small utility trailer or little popup behind their truck, they assume that the truck should be able to tow their brand new 35 foot TT. Or they have a "truck". Trucks pull things - small things, big things. What's to ask?

But you are right. The fellow beating a dead horse below your post ....... what do they say about a picture being worth a 1000 words? Let it go. The horse is dead.
To prove your point, it looks as if mamawildbear learned something from this thread, which is s good thing. Carry on. :)

Dave-Gray
04-01-2015, 07:14 PM
You all are making me nervous with this overloaded talk. I would imagine that the main reason people might be driving on the edge (or over) their towing capacity is ignorance. I have no idea how to find a weigh station or how to use one. We've been towing for 5 years having no idea what anything weighed but until November we had a popup so the weights never got into the range to possibly matter so there was no need to know.

Now we have a TT and I am feeling dangerously ignorant but I'm making a plan. I followed all of your links and read up on everything so now know how to find a scale and the protocol used there.

So if I understand properly, I can pull up with the trailer and weigh just the truck (both with and without the weight distribution bars for comparison) and that can help me figure out the tongue weight. Somewhere I read that should be 10%-12% but I don't know 10-12% of what?

Go to this webpage (http://fifthwheelst.com/rv-weighing-worksheet.html) and download/print the correct worksheet for your situation. The worksheet will walk you through, step by step. It's the first step of a four step weighing plan at that website.