RV Industry Service concerns

[Bunkhouse]

Hello Everyone,

We've had a very poor experience with our new 5th wheel. We bought it new, and have had a hole host of issues. The control panel went out. The remote never worked. The hot water heater did not function properly. The cap faded after 1/2 a season. The unit was delivered to us with the frame of the couch busted in half. The dealer didn't even clean the roof. This is all being addressed under the warranty, however it took 7 weeks to somewhat fix the panel and that was only because I called everyday. The dealer tried to tell me it would take up to three months. I was also told I should ge3t used to this and that "this is just how the RV industry is".

Earlier in life I worked in the automotive industry, and this would never have been tolerated. I now work in the business world and I would never tell one of my customers to just deal with it.

Any thoughts out there ? Is my frustration ill placed ?

[gearhead]

I share your frustration. I am not a promoter of government interference by any means, but I think legislation is about the only solution.
When the RV dealer service rep's first question is: "did you buy it here?", there are some serious issues in my opinion.

[chuckster57]

Your going to find that just like any other business, there are good ones and bad ones. Some RV dealers will sell you the unit you picked out, put a battery in it (maybe), shake your hand and send you on your way.

Others will take the time to check everything, fix any discrepancies that they can at the time, and explain how your unit works when you pick it up. I am sorry your dealing with issues that should have been dealt with BEFORE you took possession, but as long as they get addressed to your satisfaction, don't let it sour your taste for RV'ing.

I can say from firsthand experience, during the peak season, customers that purchased from us do get priority, doesn't mean we wont work on someone else's unit, but it the same thing if you take your auto to a dealership for work. Seen that first hand when I took my truck to the local Ford dealer for a safety recall.

[gearhead]

So Chuckster what is behind the poor service?

It's not worth the investment in buildings, tools, and people?
They're making plenty of money in sales and don't have to do good service?
The manufacturer does not reimburse the dealer adequately for warranty work, so why bother?
They can't find decent repair techs for what they are willing to pay?
The service department is poorly managed and everyone there is overwhelmed?

It's gotta be something.

[Bunkhouse]

Your going to find that just like any other business, there are good ones and bad ones. Some RV dealers will sell you the unit you picked out, put a battery in it (maybe), shake your hand and send you on your way.

Others will take the time to check everything, fix any discrepancies that they can at the time, and explain how your unit works when you pick it up. I am sorry your dealing with issues that should have been dealt with BEFORE you took possession, but as long as they get addressed to your satisfaction, don't let it sour your taste for RV'ing.

I can say from firsthand experience, during the peak season, customers that purchased from us do get priority, doesn't mean we wont work on someone else's unit, but it the same thing if you take your auto to a dealership for work. Seen that first hand when I took my truck to the local Ford dealer for a safety recall.

Thank you for your service in law enforcement !

It won't sour my taste for RV'ing, it's just disappointing that there are some company's that think this is acceptable.

[chuckster57]

I wish I had the answer my friend...I wouldn't be just a lowly tech ;)

I think it's a combination of factors, and the more poor factors the worse the service and the dealership in general. We could debate this til we both have sore fingers from typing, but I will say that it seems like overall (not just the RV industry) customer care/concern has taken a back seat.

Okay back on my soapbox for a second:

I have operated my own auto repair business "on the side" for over 40 years, and have some customers that I have had for the entire time. When I got hired at my present dealership, I carried that philosophy with me. Did it cause some friction with my boss? Only for a minute as I explained what an occasional "gimme" did for the bottom line. We are doing 10X the business as when I started, and we continue to grow. My boss has over 30 yrs in the RV service business, been through the boon and bust. He and I have seen techs come and go, and now we have 3 guys that "give a hoot" about their work. Hard to find that kind of worker in any line of work IMO. Maybe it's because I am over 55 and we had a different work ethic it seems. Anyway, lets not get each other all heated up this late in the evening, I do have to go to work in the morning... if you'd like to carry this conversation on, PM me and I'll be glad to give you my Phone number...I drive an hour each way to/from work.

[chuckster57]

Thank you for your service in law enforcement !

It won't sour my taste for RV'ing, it's just disappointing that there are some company's that think this is acceptable.

Your welcome. And I agree, when you find a company that finds crap acceptable, do, what you can to spread the word... Yelp, review sites and such. BUT all I ask is when you find the gem, share it too. Enjoy your trailer "bouncey:

[gearhead]

It's the people usually. Sounds like you've got it Chuckster.
Actually me and the wife are sitting here at 11pm trying to find a place to deliver pizza to Crossroads RV in Lexington N.C. tomorrow. They thought they were repairing our Dometic A/C under warranty, but it was a Keystone issue, and they weren't Keystone.
No charge to us to fix a loose wire.
I still remember it from April.
Poppa Johns, 2 miles away from them. 1058 miles from us. Guess I should call first to be sure they will be there!

[wahoonc]

I have a variety of thoughts about the RV service industry, as well as the RV industry as a whole.

I think the number one problem is the lack of consistency and QC at the manufacturer level. This in turn overwhelms the dealer service network. To me it is mind boggling to see the acres and acres of units sitting at the dealers waiting for warranty work and basic service.

There is a lack of qualified service techs as well as people that understand what a career is versus a paycheck. I am the same age as Chuck and deal with the issue on a daily basis. I work in industrial roofing and our workforce is aging fast, last statistic I saw said that average commercial roofer is 54 years old:eek: that is brutal, roofing is a very physical job and 54 year old bodies that have been doing it for 30 plus years are falling apart, we need younger people but not many are attracted to the profession. I suspect RV technicians are similar, along with many other "hands on" professions.

Just a few of my opinions...

Aaron:cool:

[JRTJH]

Another major factor that affects the RV industry is the season status of the business. In most parts of the country, RVing is a "summer industry". When you consider that during the winter months, most RV dealerships sit idle and in the summer months they are "swamped" with customers, all of which want their RV fixed "today"......

Building a million dollar service facility, paying "good, qualified" service techs a decent salary, then laying off a part of the workforce in November, paying unemployment, having the building investment sit "idle" while there are no customers (and no profit to pay the mortgage) while still paying unemployment, makes for a "difficult sell" to most any banker.

Around here, most RV dealerships close in November and don't even unlock the parts department door until May. That makes the business a 6 month profit loss before the first customer's rig is serviced. Trying to find "good, qualified" employees who are willing to work 6 months and be laid off for 6 months is a "hard sell" as well.

It's not just about "I want good service" from a customer's perspective, but it's got to be about, "Can I make a profit and stay in business" from the dealer's perspective also.

So, in some parts of the US (and I suppose Canada) dealerships can "keep the doors open all year", but in many other places, not only can't they make a profit during the "off season" but they can't even unlock the doors. There are simply "NO CUSTOMERS" to pay even the light bill.

I wouldn't want to try to raise a family by being employed for 6 months and I don't think many "dedicated to doing a good job with a good work ethic" people would get themselves in that kind of "financial crisis" willingly. They simply tend to migrate to a full time, full year paycheck in order to pay the bills and buy their families what they need to keep moving forward.

Think about closing the doors on your income for even 3 months a year. Would you want to keep working there when you could move "next door" and get 52 weekly checks? Most people who "want to work" would leave the RV industry if it were seasonal where they live. I'm supposing you would too.....

So, no profits, no work force, liabilities of unemployment and still having to pay the mortgage????? Who in their right mind would build a "come one come all" year round multimillion dollar business under those conditions?

And you wonder why RV dealerships north of the "frost line" don't just "add more service bays and hire more people" ??? I wouldn't put my "eggs in that basket" either.......

[gearhead]

John, no way I would want to invest dollars in a business that I had to close for 6 months. But, 3 weeks ago I stayed at a relatively new hotel that had 11 guests on 4 floors. The bartender said it was packed from spring break until September. Living as far south as I do I'm just not used to processing the on/off seasonal thing. I asked a service rep at my infamous RV dealer if they ever slowed down..."yes, we're slow on Christmas day, when we close".
I guess it's a combination of all the factors we have kicked around.

[byrdr1]

Here in central NC we have two major dealerships. one is CW the other an independent. The CW service lot is full with the units they sale and all others getting service work whether is warranty or otherwise. The independent is never full.. ?????
My SonIL bought a camper from ohio and uses the CW for warranty work. The first week his control panel died. it was replaced, he had a warped inside table, the outside kitchen door was installed wrong and had to be totally replaced. the front cap faded and was just repainted by an auto shop. it been at the dealership lot more than in their yard. Its been at the dealership since the first week in december for the front cap. its still there(or body shop)because Keystone only sent half the decals to finish the job. the fender skirts have been replaced twice. first with wrong color then again to get the silver back on like original. I will say CW has treated him pretty well considering he bought elsewhere. He knows he takes a back seat to the purchased it there crowd. BUT still it has sat on CW's repair lot more than his driveway.. SO who knows.
I have had two issues with recalls with my camper and have had that taken care of right away with my purchasing dealer. NOW I have had to do some major remodeling in side due to my stupidness but I have to tools and basic knowledge to handle most of my issues. LUCKY ME!
SO I can understand the north of the frost line crowd and understand that thinking.
Just no real answers. Chuck thanks for being an honest service tech. Maybe when I retire I can be a help. Never mind I will to old to do anything then..crawling around on my knees is killer now.. I can't imagine 7-10 years from now. :)
randy

[Rex1vt]

We purchased a Keystone Cougar 327RES 4/29/2014 at Camping World ,Dover,Florida and have had great service,the problem is the product.We traveled 5000 miles round trip June - Sept and warranty issues that came up enroute resulted in Keystone dealers who were willing to schedule us but the schedules were generally a month away, in other words no help.Problems included failed remote,cracked grey tank,slide delamination,slide mechanism,cap fade.We had to live with the issues as we traveled whether they were critical or not.The down time in total has been about four months,the last being Sept 11-Dec 23 for all items except the remote.We picked up the unit Dec 23 and while traveling approximately, 20 miles to our home experienced a "China Bomb" tire failure so in the process of installation of four new Maxxis M8008, plus spare. We are holding our breath regarding the touch control panel ,waiting for that shoe to drop.Keytsone has covered the warranty issues, excluding the tires, but we
would be happier to have a quality product in the first place. We know about the old saying you get what you pay for but I am not so sure in this case.

[JRTJH]

Randy,

Like you, I'm simply not physically able to crawl around on my hands and knees like I did years ago. And, to be honest, I don't want to do that, even for myself anymore, and certainly not to make a paycheck that I don't really need and would have to pay taxes on as well. So, I'll do my own RV maintenance and leave the rest to whomever the dealership can find in the unemployment line that is willing to work, often for less than welfare benefits.... <another restraint on finding people willing to work>.

Up here, CW is open with two different schedules. Summers the service department is open from 7AM to 6PM Mon-Sat and closed on Sun. Parts is 8-8 7 days a week. Winter hours, service is open Mon-Fri 9-4 and parts is 9-4 Mon-Sat. The remaining RV dealerships, from Onaway, Traverse City, Harbor Springs, Cadillac and Waters are simply closed from November until the week before Memorial Day. Some of them do have a storage yard and will unlock the gate to let you get your RV, but you have to pay for snow removal to get it out of the lot.

When we lived in Louisiana, most RV dealerships were open throughout the year, but even then, the winter months were much easier to get a service appointment. Summer months were booked weeks in advance for any maintenance work. A very good friend of mine ran CENLA Camping Center in Alexandria. He was in his 70's at that time and when I bought our HR from him, he told me to pretty much forget bringing it in in the summer, but that he would work me in almost anytime during the winter. I scheduled all of my warranty work and maintenance work during the times his crew were less busy. I do believe that they focused on doing a good job all the time, but when units were stacking up "out back" and customers were complaining that "you promised I would have it back today", they started pushing units out by doing "ONLY WHAT WAS ORDERED" and not paying as much attention to "take care of the customer" extras... So, even in the "deep south" where dealerships are open "all the time", service (at least for me) seemed to be much more personalized and more care given when the crew wasn't pushed to "hurry up"...

As for Keystone sending the wrong parts, not responding quickly to parts requests, etc. A lot of that has to do with how the dealership corresponds the needed parts requests. A good parts man is worth his weight in gold. A "send me fender skirts for a 2014 Prowler" (without even looking at the trailer) parts guy can sink a service department with any manufacturer. Keystone can only send what they are requested based on the information from the dealer's request. If they don't request it correctly, you know what the outcome will be.

Sure, Keystone has their share of "issues and problems" but it's certainly not just "Keystone" especially when you read the other manufacturer's forums and hear exactly the same complaints. Even on the CW forum (RVNet) you'll read the same complaints as you read here. That forum represents every RV manufacturer from A to Z. Well from Airstream to Zinger.......

[JRTJH]

We purchased a Keystone Cougar 327RES 4/29/2014 at Camping World ,Dover,Florida and have had great service,the problem is the product.We traveled 5000 miles round trip June - Sept and warranty issues that came up enroute resulted in Keystone dealers who were willing to schedule us but the schedules were generally a month away, in other words no help.Problems included failed remote,cracked grey tank,slide delamination,slide mechanism,cap fade.We had to live with the issues as we traveled whether they were critical or not.The down time in total has been about four months,the last being Sept 11-Dec 23 for all items except the remote.We picked up the unit Dec 23 and while traveling approximately, 20 miles to our home experienced a "China Bomb" tire failure so in the process of installation of four new Maxxis M8008, plus spare. We are holding our breath regarding the touch control panel ,waiting for that shoe to drop.Keytsone has covered the warranty issues, excluding the tires, but we
would be happier to have a quality product in the first place. We know about the old saying you get what you pay for but I am not so sure in this case.

Our experience with our 2014 Cougar is just the opposite of yours. We bought it in July 2013, left in August for a 6500 mile trip. No problems at all. We did have an air conditioner issue (Dometic replaced the rooftop unit) and a remote control problem (Lippert replaced the RC unit) I sort of think the remote problem was related to the A/C issue since they happened within a week of each other. Possibly a surge/spike/low voltage problem ???

Anyway, from my experiences, Cougar and Springdale have been "zero problem" RV's. I don't doubt your problems exist, and I do hope you get resolution as quickly as possible, but I think that based on the number of units produced annually and the number of "no problem" RV's that we hear are rolling down the interstates pulled by "satisfied owners, those who do have significant problems remain in the minority.

[chuckster57]

As to wrong parts: Keystone does a much better job than some. I have recieved the wrong decals 3 times now from (won't say) even with pictures submitted.

As the public demands more features and less weight, what appears to be low quality is in fact trying to meet new standards. Wall panels are thinner, exterior walls are vacum bonded and voids filled with styrofoam. When I work on new units I find myself regulating the air so my nail gun barely fires and doesn't blow through the panel I'm trying to secure.

I DONT need to work, but I enjoy it...

[theeyres]

Good dealerships get the job done. They put the pressure on Keystone, or whoever, to get what they need to provide great customer service. The big problem is that Keystone and all other manufacturer's seem unwilling to cut loose the bad dealer. I've seen it personally where the man. had to come pick up a trailer of mine, take it back to the plant and fix a faulty fix of the dealer. Did they fire the dealer? No. They still let the lousy dealer sell, sell, sell. I honestly don't know how the problem will be fixed.

[filmtex]

I can say from firsthand experience, during the peak season, customers that purchased from us do get priority, doesn't mean we wont work on someone else's unit, but it the same thing if you take your auto to a dealership for work. Seen that first hand when I took my truck to the local Ford dealer for a safety recall.

I have absolutely NOT seen that to be the case with Toyota dealers and I have taken our two Tundra's to dealers in Texas and California. Even though it was a free service- I ALWAYS receive nothing but the best service. Just my 2 cents...

[Grolli]

I can say from firsthand experience, during the peak season, customers that purchased from us do get priority, doesn't mean we wont work on someone else's unit, but it the same thing if you take your auto to a dealership for work. Seen that first hand when I took my truck to the local Ford dealer for a safety recall.

Amen to this. Same at our dealership.

[mark1228]

There are lots of reasons for the level of service you receive in the RV business.

1.) Seasonality- We simply don't have enough techs in season to handle the volume and we can't keep them busy in the off season so they don't stay in the industry

2.) Most RV manufacturers don't carry a large parts inventory to supply dealers. Plain and simple. Keystone is one of the best here. Many times when a dealer orders parts the manufacturer of the trailer then has to order it from their supplier. Often times it has to manufactured. This really takes lead times out

3.) Warranty- It simply is a money loser for the dealer. I currently own a dealership and I'm sorry but we don't do any warranty work on units we don't sell. It's not that we are mad at the customer for not purchasing from us, it's that we don't make any money on warranty work. We are running a for profit business and have backlogs for our shop so it really does not make sense to put a tech on a warranty job when that same time could be used billing out regular time to a paying customer. I know many of you won't like this answer, but it's the truth.

4.) The manufacturers don't care- They really don't or they wouldn't sign up dealers that have not shop or technicians, yet all of them do it.

[Rex1vt]

Just keep the cream and throw away the milk. No way someone needing service will ever buy again, and if they did they certainly would not consider someone that gave them good service in the past.You may not like the answer but it is the truth.Goodwill is way over rated.

[sourdough]

Although I'm a type A+ person, have little patience and tend to get pretty harsh pretty quickly, I don't know that I can fault Keystone, or my dealership, during our ownership of our trailer.

We bought a new 2014 Cougar High Country 319RLS on 2-26-14. We did a thorough walk thru using the PDI from this forum. Since that time we've had multiple issues - small I suppose. On our first trip to FL between Shreveport and Jacksonville we hit some terribly rough interstate. When we parked in Mobile that evening we found that the bathroom door had completely come off, broke out the wooden trim around the top, broke off the roller/hangars on the top and the glide at the bottom. My inspection found the glide had been installed improperly from the factory. Instead of two mounting holes on the bottom they had cut one off, leaving one hole - which was split, so they could mount it on the trim around the door facing. It had broken, freeing the door to bounce around, broke the roller/hangars etc. because there were no stops installed at each end of the rollers. When we got to FL CW in Tallahassee worked with me to get the rollers and glide and I installed them correctly (you could see where the factory installer had drilled multiple holes trying to figure out where to put the hangars). I also properly installed the new glide by fabricating a new support and using both screws as well as adding new stops and re-attaching the track; all in the park where we were staying. Score: poor work from factory, great support from dealer.

We've had a blown out shower handle, ignitor failure on one burner of the stove, a remote failure that was probably my fault, slides adjusted and lubed, front cap painted (which the service manager observed and asked if he could get it approved for me), new flooring supports under the shower because they weren't adequate, an improperly placed fuse from the factory, a new ball on my hitch because it was installed improperly by the dealership and now it is in to check the ignitor on the furnace. Sounds like a lot of stuff but none major. CW has gone to bat for me on every count. As far as poor workmanship all I have to say is this; I have had two new custom homes built by the supposed best builders at the time. I can only wish that my punch list for repairs for them was as short as it is for the RV. Also keep in mind that these are built to be light and affordable. With that come some concessions. You aren't buying a 3-4-5 hundred thousand dollar stick home. You're buying a rolling house that gets beat up constantly with a 2" compressed wall. You just have to try to keep things in perspective I guess.

[carwheel_09]

I'm a new Montana owner, bought a 2014 3610RL in November. Towed it home from Texas and when I got her home I found "frame flex" in the pin box area. Generator compartment had separated from the front wall. Going to take it next week, been making a punch list of what needs repair. Most of it is minor but the frame sure isn't. If I could figure out how to post a pic of let y'all have a look.

[chuckster57]

If I could figure out how to post a pic of let y'all have a look.

Two different ways:
1) If the file is on your computer, look above the box where you type your reply and you'll see a paperclip. Click on it and follow the prompts.

2) Upload to an online photo hosting site, many are free. Then simply follow their instructions for copying the direct link. Once that is copied, look above the box for the square with the mountain in it, click on it and follow the prompts.

[mark1228]

Just keep the cream and throw away the milk. No way someone needing service will ever buy again, and if they did they certainly would not consider someone that gave them good service in the past.You may not like the answer but it is the truth.Goodwill is way over rated.

Well I would suggest that every dealer that performs warranty work is giving away lots of goodwill. I did not say we won't service units bought somewhere else, I said we won't do warranty work on units bought somewhere else. In my experience, many of the customers that want warranty work done on a unit they purchased somewhere else are very demanding. Often times some of the items they believe are warranty will not be covered by the manufacturer. In the past when we did try to do warranty on these units we often times ended up with unhappy customers anyway and we lost money. I am in business to make money and yes all RV dealers are in business to make money. If warranty was a profit center we would all welcome it with open arms.

[Festus2]

Let me say at the outset that I know very little about how a business operates and I know even less about how businesses deal with warranty issues. I am guessing that there is some kind of financial arrangement between the manufacturer - in this case Keystone - and the dealership. I am also assuming that the dealership gets reimbursed or somehow paid by Keystone for warranty work. If you didn't get paid, why would you do the work?

Could you please explain to me how performing warranty work "is a money loser for the dealer"? You have stated that you "don't make any money". So I am wondering if you are "in the business to make money" why would you take on warranty work that "is a loser for the dealer"?

For me, an non-business person, this doesn't make any sense. So, please enlighten me.

You also indicate that, by doing warranty work, you are "giving away lots of good will". Does this mean that you are doing warranty work out of the goodness of your heart even though you are losing money?

I'm also puzzled by your comment that folks who did not purchase their RV at your dealership and who come to you for warranty work are "very demanding". Are they more demanding that people who bought their RV from you? What would explain the difference between these two groups of people? It seems to me that both groups come to you with something that needs "fixed" or replaced because it is either broken and doesn't work or it needs to be replaced.

Again, I am not a business person and have no experience or background in this area and am looking for an explanation about how your RV dealership and perhaps others as well lose money on warranty work.

[chuckster57]

Here's what I know:

Dealership is paid a set rate for warranty repair, and the manufacturer sets the time paid for most every repair. If the repair takes longer than the allotted time, the dealer has to resubmit and is subject to denial on the extra time.

As an example. I had to replace a wall in the bunk portion of a motorhome. Factory gave me 1 hour to complete. I had to document with pictures what I felt it would take to complete the task (3.0 hours) and the factory ended up giving me 2.5, actual time spend was 2.47 hours.

Another example. I had to replace a set of window shades. Factory required a picture of the data tag which required removal of the shades. Factory paid .2 for the total repair and refused to authorize anymore. Takes 5-10 minutes just to remove shade and get the picture.

Depending on how efficient a tech is, the dealership can make or lose money in warranty repairs. Then comes the subject of pay. Flat rate techs can make good money if the dealership is busy. Hard to keep a good tech if the dealership is slow in the off season, and I am thankful I get an hourly wage. Good for me in slow times, good for the dealer in busy times.

Hope this helps shed a little light.

[Festus2]

Chuck -
Thanks for the explanation - it does help. From what you wrote, it appears as though a dealership can make a profit if:
1) the techs are "good at their job",
2) the manufacturer's set pay rate to the dealership is high enough and reasonable,
3) the dealership is "busy"

If the manufacturer's set pay rate is equal to or more than what the dealership's costs are in wages and materials, then it seems like the dealership would either break even or make a profit. Or is this an incorrect assumption and doesn't happen in the real business world?

If a dealership is depending upon their tech's efficiency as to whether or not it will make a profit or suffer a loss on warranty work, then wouldn't it follow that the dealership would quickly show the door to "inefficient techs"? Why keep someone on the payroll who is losing money for you? If a dealership doesn't make any money from warranty work, then shouldn't they take a good look at their tech's ?????

Do automobile dealerships also lose money on warranty work they perform? Or is just the RV industry that does?

[wahoonc]

Chuck -
Thanks for the explanation - it does help. From what you wrote, it appears as though a dealership can make a profit if:
1) the techs are "good at their job",
2) the manufacturer's set pay rate to the dealership is high enough and reasonable,
3) the dealership is "busy"

If the manufacturer's set pay rate is equal to or more than what the dealership's costs are in wages and materials, then it seems like the dealership would either break even or make a profit. Or is this an incorrect assumption and doesn't happen in the real business world?

If a dealership is depending upon their tech's efficiency as to whether or not it will make a profit or suffer a loss on warranty work, then wouldn't it follow that the dealership would quickly show the door to "inefficient techs"? Why keep someone on the payroll who is losing money for you? If a dealership doesn't make any money from warranty work, then shouldn't they take a good look at their tech's ?????

Do automobile dealerships also lose money on warranty work they perform? Or is just the RV industry that does?

Warranty work is basically subsistence, in many cases what the manufacturer pays barely covers the actual costs of the work, with nothing for profit. If you have all of your techs tied up on warranty work you can't make money on the regular service work that pays the bills. I have also seen some warranty work take up a bay at my local CW for several months, that bay is not available for regular service work, so it is costing them money. I am sure they aren't being reimbursed by the manufacturer of that unit for the loss of use of the bay. Some manufacturers are better than others on being realistic.

Auto dealerships don't like warranty work either, but that is a bit of a different situation. I have seen cars built and I have seen RV's built. Cars are usually built better by better skilled workers. There are exceptions.

Aaron :)

[chuckster57]

Its my understanding that the labor rate is negotiated with the factory and can be influence by the proof of RVIA registered/certified techs.

The dealership has to pay a per tech fee for the registration, and once the tech passes a series of courses receives a certificate. Then the dealership has to pay per tech for the certification test ($345.00 IIRC), and if the tech fails there is a retest fee.

Some states have a "right to work" law meaning you can't let an employee go for any reason. I can tell you that there have been times that I have been handed a repair order with say 12 items and when all is said and done, we have come out on the short end. Then there are those R/O's that we come up, so it's a matter of how many losers to winners you have.

If a dealership invests money in their techs then its another cost to let them go. Then there's the matter of tools. In Calf. If the employer requires a tech to have their own tools, they have to pay at least 2X the minimum wage, so what do you do? Buy tools or pay your techs.

I have no idea about the auto service industry.

[gearhead]

I swore I wasn't going to comment anymore on this subject but.....if there is no money in warranty work why did my independent repair shop jump on my broke Dometic refridge like a hungry dog on a bone? I asked them after the repair if Dometic paid them fairly? "Sure, we did well on it." That, after my selling mega-dealer couldn't fix it in 2 tries.
It's pure mis-management. Bad work flow procedures and bad supervision.
I hope I'm never 500 miles from home needing warranty work. I'll drag that Montana back to Houston on it's axles I guess.
And..."right to work" is very different than that in Texas. Right to work means you don't have to join a union to work in a union facility. Hired at will in Texas means you can be fired for any reason your employer determines. If you're not union, you're hired at will in Texas.

[chuckster57]

I probably have the right to work/hire at will thing wrong. I was a state employee for 25+ yrs and now I'm working in the private sector so labor law was of no concern.

[wahoonc]

I swore I wasn't going to comment anymore on this subject but.....if there is no money in warranty work why did my independent repair shop jump on my broke Dometic refridge like a hungry dog on a bone? I asked them after the repair if Dometic paid them fairly? "Sure, we did well on it." That, after my selling mega-dealer couldn't fix it in 2 tries.
It's pure mis-management. Bad work flow procedures and bad supervision.
I hope I'm never 500 miles from home needing warranty work. I'll drag that Montana back to Houston on it's axles I guess.
And..."right to work" is very different than that in Texas. Right to work means you don't have to join a union to work in a union facility. Hired at will in Texas means you can be fired for any reason your employer determines. If you're not union, you're hired at will in Texas.

Perhaps the independent has lower overhead? Lots of variables, obviously his techs were better than the mega dealer. FWIW I asked at my local CW how many of the techs were RVIA certified and got a blank look and no answer. I do know that an independent dealer that I deal with about 2 hours from my house has several, they also happen to be right across the freeway from a CW. I also realize that not all CW's are created equal. If you find a good repair shop, support them, they are the exception rather than the rule.

Right to work and work at will (https://www.rocketlawyer.com/article/what-states-are-at-will-employment-states-ps.rl) are two different things, but they are quite often related.

Aaron :cool:

[gearhead]

I promise my last comment....lol...my independent shop is parts and repair only. No RV showroom. They live and die on repairs. They are family owned and several "employees" are family.
My infamous mega dealer is not CW, but they are right next door to each other.
I think we're on the same page about the labor issue. I spent 35 years in a huge Houston refinery/petro-chemical facility. Half that time active on the labor side of the table, then went to the "dark side" the 2nd half of my career.

[jsmith948]

Right to work and work at will (https://www.rocketlawyer.com/article/what-states-are-at-will-employment-states-ps.rl) are two different things, but they are quite often related.

Aaron :cool:

Gearhead has it right in regard to 'Right to Work'....except that it should be more accurately renamed "Right to work FOR LESS $"
Just the humble opinion of a retired Teamster:)

[carwheel_09]

I'm going to throw my two cents in. I also purchased from that infamous mega dealer. I will never again buy from any dealer except a family owned business. With the big boys I got lost it their shuffle from sales to service.

[NotyetMHCowner]

Gearhead has it right in regard to 'Right to Work'....except that it should be more accurately renamed "Right to work FOR LESS $"
Just the humble opinion of a retired Teamster:)


AMEN!!

Current 20+ year member of International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers

[sourdough]

I think the union, non-union argument is better left for another place. Having been in a union, and in an leadership position in our local, then in management as a sr. exec trying to manage a large business and deal with a union, including negotiating contracts, I have some very explicit observations about both situations; none which belong here.

As far as the warranty vs pay issue I kind of look at warranty work as something similar to Medicare and the rates they negotiate with doctors. Low, probably too low in many instances, but enough to keep food on the table. I understand a dealership's reluctance to take on the warranty work if they have higher paying work available. On the other hand, if they sell the unit and are an authorized dealer they are obligated to do the work as quickly and efficiently as possible. I think the way a particular dealership views that obligation dictates how, or if, you get warranty work done. Again, you have to look for that good dealer that takes care of you after the sale.

[mark1228]

I think the union, non-union argument is better left for another place. Having been in a union, and in an leadership position in our local, then in management as a sr. exec trying to manage a large business and deal with a union, including negotiating contracts, I have some very explicit observations about both situations; none which belong here.

As far as the warranty vs pay issue I kind of look at warranty work as something similar to Medicare and the rates they negotiate with doctors. Low, probably too low in many instances, but enough to keep food on the table. I understand a dealership's reluctance to take on the warranty work if they have higher paying work available. On the other hand, if they sell the unit and are an authorized dealer they are obligated to do the work as quickly and efficiently as possible. I think the way a particular dealership views that obligation dictates how, or if, you get warranty work done. Again, you have to look for that good dealer that takes care of you after the sale.

Let me say at the outset that I know very little about how a business operates and I know even less about how businesses deal with warranty issues. I am guessing that there is some kind of financial arrangement between the manufacturer - in this case Keystone - and the dealership. I am also assuming that the dealership gets reimbursed or somehow paid by Keystone for warranty work. If you didn't get paid, why would you do the work?

Could you please explain to me how performing warranty work "is a money loser for the dealer"? You have stated that you "don't make any money". So I am wondering if you are "in the business to make money" why would you take on warranty work that "is a loser for the dealer"?

For me, an non-business person, this doesn't make any sense. So, please enlighten me.

You also indicate that, by doing warranty work, you are "giving away lots of good will". Does this mean that you are doing warranty work out of the goodness of your heart even though you are losing money?

I'm also puzzled by your comment that folks who did not purchase their RV at your dealership and who come to you for warranty work are "very demanding". Are they more demanding that people who bought their RV from you? What would explain the difference between these two groups of people? It seems to me that both groups come to you with something that needs "fixed" or replaced because it is either broken and doesn't work or it needs to be replaced.

Again, I am not a business person and have no experience or background in this area and am looking for an explanation about how your RV dealership and perhaps others as well lose money on warranty work.


Let me start by saying I am not trying to argue with anyone. I am simply offering a different point of view on this issue than most other folks on this forum.

When an RV comes in for a warranty repair, many customers have somewhere between 5-15 items on their list. Lets start with cabinet doors and drawers. Do you know how long they are covered by the Keystone warranty? They are covered for days 1-90 of ownership. Keystone does not even pay for these adjustments PRIOR to you getting the coach, they only cover them for the first 90 days you own it. Many times, these items are on the list the customer brings in. If you bought it from me, I am going to take care of these items on my dime if you are over 90 days old. I am not going to do if you didn't buy from me and I have had many arguments with owners on this issue that did not end well.

Here is how warranty works. You bring your RV in with your list. The service writer has to go over your list with you. This takes time(overhead). Then the dealer has to move it into a service bay. The tech starts to go over your list. Most items have to have a picture taken and a fix figured out. Then they have to move your RV out and park it somewhere while the warranty person goes to the Keystone website and submits all items, many with pictures for Keystone to approve or deny the claim. After you get the approvals and denials, you have to call the customer to let them know what won't be covered and ask them if they want it fixed. For the items that are approved, you may have to order parts for some of them. The dealer does not get to make any mark up on parts. When the parts come in, the dealer has to check them in and get them back to the service dept so they can reschedule your unit back in. It gets moved back in the shop and then the tech starts to do the repairs. Up to this point, the dealer does not get paid for anything! Now that the tech starts approved repairs, the dealer will get paid labor money for each item approved. However often times the dealer gets a wrong part so now we have to reschedule your unit and order more parts. We also have to send the wrong one back. No one pays for us to repackage and send it though they will pay the actual freight. Once we get the right part, we sometimes have to move you personal items out of the way just to work on something( ie: anything in the belly compartment like all the plumbing, heating,applicances you access from there.) Once the job is done, we have to repackage and send the parts back and file a claim. Keystone's labor amounts, while paid at our normal rate, only pay a certain amount of time for each job regardless of how long it takes. Tech's at a dealer have to work on EVERY brand out there, Keystone's techs ONLY work on Keystone product and know it much better so they can do it faster. Now we get to wait for 2-8 weeks to paid.

Now lets say that you bring your RV for non warranty maintenance. I schedule it, bring it in the shop and either perform the maintenance or repair. I may have to order a part but at least I get to make a fair margin on the part. When I am done, I call you and you come in pick it up and pay for it. No packing and sending parts back. No waiting to be paid and having to pay labor time for accounting time to track it.

I have had customers claim that their DVD player is defective. I order one, replace it and send the old one back. It works when tested at the factory and now I have had to pay for the one that went into the customers trailer, I get the old one back and I get paid no labor money. I could go on and on, but the bottom line is that warranty is not a money maker or we would do it.

[sourdough]

mark1228 - I think your comments pretty much sum up what I said in my comment above yours. They are also pretty much what the GM and sales manager tell me at my dealership. From my dealings with Keystone I know they can be trying to work with. I do think that a buyer should be able to expect better treatment from a selling dealer than just "someone". That's why I try to buy most of my things from a local dealer.

[mark1228]

mark1228 - I think your comments pretty much sum up what I said in my comment above yours. They are also pretty much what the GM and sales manager tell me at my dealership. From my dealings with Keystone I know they can be trying to work with. I do think that a buyer should be able to expect better treatment from a selling dealer than just "someone". That's why I try to buy most of my things from a local dealer.

A buyer should expect great service from their selling dealer! I agree with the buying local thought as well. Thanks for being and RV'r!

[ggrant119]

I have been reading this topic and wanted to jump in on numerous occasions.. This is my $.02.....lol..

mark1228 - I appreciate you telling us what the dealership goes thru when dealing with warranty. I was in the John Deere Equipment business for many years. As an Operations Manager for the dealership there was a constant give and take with the manufacturer when it came to warranty work... That all came to a nasty crashing hault the day John Deere Corp. signed the contract with Home Depot to sell equipment in the big box stores. What the dealer is now required to do to get paid on warranty sounds like both company's where going from the same text book. Dealerships that have been in business for 30 - 40 - 50 years starting loosing money in the service department for first time. What was there answer...? Only do warranty work on units that where sold here!!. #1. Reason why.. setup and PDI!! #2. Reason why.. the shop labor rates from the manufacturer (what the dealer makes) was about 1/2 the posted shop rate. Nobody wants to work for half pay.

The over all out come of this mess (long of the short) Dealers all came togeter and formed a counsel that layed out to Deere how there warranty "Service plan" doesn't work!! They had there trained service professionals try and do repairs at what the "book time" said it should said take... not one repair could be made correctly by there time they where given. Today.. JD pays dealers POSTED shop rates!! parts are credited to dealer at MSRP. You would be hard pressed to have a dealer turn down warranty work now. And... if there's something that's in the Grey area .. there's working room for all!!!

Why did JD do this... people will never buy a #2 .. if they couldn't find someone to fix #1

I know the camping world is different from the equipment business. . Just thought it was funny how... with warranty it appears to be exactly the same!

[mark1228]

I have been reading this topic and wanted to jump in on numerous occasions.. This is my $.02.....lol..

mark1228 - I appreciate you telling us what the dealership goes thru when dealing with warranty. I was in the John Deere Equipment business for many years. As an Operations Manager for the dealership there was a constant give and take with the manufacturer when it came to warranty work... That all came to a nasty crashing hault the day John Deere Corp. signed the contract with Home Depot to sell equipment in the big box stores. What the dealer is now required to do to get paid on warranty sounds like both company's where going from the same text book. Dealerships that have been in business for 30 - 40 - 50 years starting loosing money in the service department for first time. What was there answer...? Only do warranty work on units that where sold here!!. #1. Reason why.. setup and PDI!! #2. Reason why.. the shop labor rates from the manufacturer (what the dealer makes) was about 1/2 the posted shop rate. Nobody wants to work for half pay.

The over all out come of this mess (long of the short) Dealers all came togeter and formed a counsel that layed out to Deere how there warranty "Service plan" doesn't work!! They had there trained service professionals try and do repairs at what the "book time" said it should said take... not one repair could be made correctly by there time they where given. Today.. JD pays dealers POSTED shop rates!! parts are credited to dealer at MSRP. You would be hard pressed to have a dealer turn down warranty work now. And... if there's something that's in the Grey area .. there's working room for all!!!

Why did JD do this... people will never buy a #2 .. if they couldn't find someone to fix #1

I know the camping world is different from the equipment business. . Just thought it was funny how... with warranty it appears to be exactly the same!

Grant- thanks for jumping in. It's always good to hear a different point of view. I'm happy to hear the end result for JD, I can only hope we go that way in the RV industry. Believe me, if there was money in warranty work, we would all do it but as it is today only a shop that is slower will take it on just to keep guys busy

[vmyoung61]

So many problems could be remedied with good quality control.

Our new line Big Sky has had a wiring issue since we bought it. Two dealers have tried and failed to fix it, yet Keystone continues to tell us it is a "simple fix." They insisted we take it to a 3rd dealer for repair. They wouldn't even consider letting us bring it to the Service Center in Goshen. So far, it's been at the dealer they chose for 6 days and we are no closer to a fix than we were when we dropped it off.

We have experienced some of the worst communication imaginable. Dealer not communicating with us; Dealer not communicating with Keystone; Keystone not communicating with us; Keystone not communicating with dealer. No matter how many messages we leave, nobody will return our calls.

It's so sad. We really love our Big Sky, but we are at wit's end with Keystone.:bang head:

Update: The Big Sky is finally at the Keystone Service Center. After 15 days at Keystone's chosen dealer, they still didn't have a clue as to how to fix it, so they decided to bring it back to the factory. We are so happy that we will soon have our camper fixed!

[sourdough]

I know that dealing with Keystone can be trying from all the posts I have read and some of the communications I've had with them personally. In the end, we have had STELLAR success with them fixing all kinds of things. Some of the items were identified by the service manager after we had owned the trailer for months. Others they just sent in and Keystone approved and I would have bet the house they wouldn't. I don't know what the difference is but I do know that my efforts on my own did not come close to having the same success as going thru my service manager.

[mark1228]

So many problems could be remedied with good quality control.

Our new line Big Sky has had a wiring issue since we bought it. Two dealers have tried and failed to fix it, yet Keystone continues to tell us it is a "simple fix." They insisted we take it to a 3rd dealer for repair. They wouldn't even consider letting us bring it to the Service Center in Goshen. So far, it's been at the dealer they chose for 6 days and we are no closer to a fix than we were when we dropped it off.

We have experienced some of the worst communication imaginable. Dealer not communicating with us; Dealer not communicating with Keystone; Keystone not communicating with us; Keystone not communicating with dealer. No matter how many messages we leave, nobody will return our calls.

It's so sad. We really love our Big Sky, but we are at wit's end with Keystone.:banghead:


Electrical problems are almost always hard. Why? For one, there are 2 totally different electrical systems in your RV. 12 Volt and 120 Volt. 2nd, in my 15 years in the RV business I have never been able to get any manufacturer to provide me with a wiring schematic to know how the RV was wired. Why? Because they don't exist. The Manufacturers themselves can't tell a dealer or repair shop how something was wired. My shop is dealing with a brand new Keystone unit with wiring issues and Keystone has been no help at all. The problem is likely a very easy fix, once someone can find it. This is one reason dealers don't like warranty. They will have way more time in diagnosing the problem then they will ever get paid for. There is no excuse for the lack of communication by the dealer or Keystone, but to be honest I'm surprised they found a dealer to take this on.

[Idahoguy]

Been in new car business, been in new rv business (small light weight rv's), dealt with warranty and customers which can be a real challenge, but life is a challenge. Have a 2015 Alpine 3010RE. Love it's arrangement and it's looks that's why I bought it. Have been thru it top to bottom and had a few issues I fixed myself. First outing will be this weekend, so that will tell me more. .....Anyway, the RV industry gets away with so much. Wiring all over the place 12 volt and 110. Hydraulic lines unprotected every were. Get behind the water works panels and belly board and I wander how it make it down the road. Insulation values are a joke. I could go on forever. It is not a perfect world I know and I don't expect it to be. I am like some other posters in that I hate regulation but the RV industry has gone too far. People are paid at the factories on how fast they can roll them out and lots gets missed and passed to the dealer to fix. Because it is cheaper to pay the dealer than slow down production for better quality. Will not stop me from RVing but hurts like heck to see the poor quality in all RV's. NO manufacturer is immune. I could go on forever. Love the campin rv thing though.

[Bunkhouse]

I'm the original poster and wanted to update everyone.

The hot water, doors, couch, and control panel have all been fixed. The front cap has been repainted. We are now just waiting for the remote system to be finally be fixed. They have replaced the components 4 X. They say they have fixed the wiring, and yet it still doesn't work.

I been having to call or email the dealer, Keystone, and Lippert 2-3 times a day
to push them to get this unit done. What I get is the three of them pointing at each other. I have had it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm livid at this point !!!! While I'm treating all three with respect, I don't feel it is returned.

Any one have any suggestions ? The Dealer on multiple occasions refuses to give me any contact information for a regional manager. The dealer's corporate office just refers my messages to the dealer.

I've now owned this trailer for a full year, and it's been in for repairs for 8 months total !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LIVID!!!

[Rex1vt]

We are supposed to get our unit back this week,it has been at the dealer for only six months of the eleven we have owned it,due to various issues and waiting for parts.I have sent emails and made phone calls to Keystone but no response for a warranty extension for equal time.Oh well,I'm sure they are busy.

UPDATE:2014 327RES Fiver
The six months referred includes time not claimed against Keystone.I have agreement with Keystone for 125 days of loss of service to complete work orders at the dealership.Responsibility for the days lost involves dealer scheduling,dealer receipt of replacement product and time to perform the work.I do not have the necessary information to sort out the process.I do know there was a lot of time lost to obtain a replacement black water tank,LCI control panel,LCI remote board, and decals associated with painting the front cap.It seems to me that all items should be readily available due to simplicity and historic failures.
Keystone has offered a goodwill payment of $200 for my troubles which I accepted with comment it does not imply customer satisfaction.I have also communicated these details to the dealership stating I feel they should be as unhappy with Keystone as I am, since the loss of time is largely the fault of Keystone
based on their failure to stock product for warranty service. My experience doe not bode well for the dealer trying to sell Keystone.
I appreciate the fact Keystone did provide warranty service, but it was a messy process.My warranty period is up April 29,I hope my fiver is now better than new.

[Bunkhouse]

Hello Everyone,

Update: I just picked up our unit about a month ago with everything fixed. We did use the unit through the summer with everything working except for the remote system.

We have not settled with Keystone at this time, but we are talking. They offered a settlement earlier in the year, however all of the repairs had not been completed. I told them we would discuss settlement once all of the repairs had been completed.

[Hideout17]

Chuck -
Thanks for the explanation - it does help. From what you wrote, it appears as though a dealership can make a profit if:
1) the techs are "good at their job",
2) the manufacturer's set pay rate to the dealership is high enough and reasonable,
3) the dealership is "busy"

If the manufacturer's set pay rate is equal to or more than what the dealership's costs are in wages and materials, then it seems like the dealership would either break even or make a profit. Or is this an incorrect assumption and doesn't happen in the real business world?

If a dealership is depending upon their tech's efficiency as to whether or not it will make a profit or suffer a loss on warranty work, then wouldn't it follow that the dealership would quickly show the door to "inefficient techs"? Why keep someone on the payroll who is losing money for you? If a dealership doesn't make any money from warranty work, then shouldn't they take a good look at their tech's ?????

Do automobile dealerships also lose money on warranty work they perform? Or is just the RV industry that does?

I did warranty work at auto dealerships for 25yrs. Very rarely does a tech " make money" with warranty work. Mostly Loose or break even if I was lucky. Over the years warranty time has gone down and work required goes up. Case in point catalytic converter replacement. Diagnosis time plus replacement plus road test with scan tool to Verify repair. Pays .9 total.....takes .5 to .6 on road test after to get required info for warranty to pay for it.....