New bumper...do's & don't do's

[gearhead]

I'm taking the 5th to Smitty's welding in Houston Monday for a new bumper. They were recommended by my infamous Holiday World RV dealer in Katy TX. I have talked to Smitty's on the phone and they sound OK. I want a heavier gauge bumper than the 0.070" one I have now. I'm thinking at least 0.125". I have removed my spare from the under body mount and have fabricated my own bumper mount spare carrier out of 0.250" plate. I used 4 grade 8 bolts 3/8" diameter with a back up plate behind the bumper to bolt through. Needless to say the mount and the 16" spare are likely pushing the limits of the factory bumper. I also want to carry a couple bicycles on a receiver hitch mount. For dry camping I think I want a receiver cargo platform to put the generator on.
Just me looking at the way the current bumper is mounted, it looks like a fairly straightforward job.
Do y'all have any: "oh my gosh don't do...." ideas? Or, something to be sure I get?

[bg71361]

Sounds good, post up some pictures!

[JRTJH]

Our hitch is welded to the bottom of the I-beam, spans the distance between I-beams with 2.5" square tubing (1/8" thick) and is supported by 1/4" plate at each end and in the middle. The upper part of the middle is bolted to the trailer cross-member and the bottom is gusseted above and below the receiver. In the last picture, The two bolts in the center plate (with the HW) is backed inside that C channel with another 1/4" plate to keep the bolts from pulling out or deforming the thinner C channel.

If you're looking to replace the bumper with a thicker square tubing, you might also consider the bumper "standoffs", as they are very thin rectangular tubing that barely supports the existing bumper. I will post another picture in the next comment showing that rectangular tubing and how the bumper attaches to it. I wouldn't trust it to support much more than just the bumper itself.

We've pulled a 3000 lb bass boat over some pretty rough roads and never had any issues. I have an aluminum cargo tray, but we've never used it on the trailer. It's pretty "bouncy" back there, so I'm not sure I want to put even my "cheap Champion" generator back there. If nothing else, it would probably "shake all the gas" out of it. LOL

[JRTJH]

Here's the picture of that rectangular tubing and bumper. You can see it's not even welded on all sides of the tubing.

If it were me, I'd want to keep the receiver and the bumper separate, or at least don't have the bumper supporting the majority of the receiver's load.

[hankpage]

A reputable welding or frame shop will know what you need for what you want. Explain what you want to do and see if their plans agree with yours. Some professionals don't like to be told how to do their jobs but will not take offense if you suggest a tweak here and there. Yes, you want it your way but see what they recommend first. It sounds to me as if three receivers, spaced across the back and welded properly to the frame will give you the flexibility to do the different things you plan to do and others down the road. JM2¢, Hank ...... Like John said .... Don't trust any part of the factory bumper!!!!

[bsmith0404]

It sounds like just about everything you are doing is associated with a receiver hitch. As already stated, I would weld the hitch to the frame with a cross tube (similar to the receiver on your truck) and keep it separate from the bumper. A good shop will take care of you. When it's all said and done, I would try to get them to provide you with some weight specs for the hitch, tow and tongue weight capabilities. Even better if you can get that in writing, but I doubt they will provide that.

[gearhead]

Yep John that 2" x 2" square tubing that is welded to the frame and then the bumper extensions are welded to, is pretty cheesey. I'm thinking just wash them off and start from there.
The frame mounted receiver that comes out under the bumper was my first thought. But I can't go any lower than the current bumper. I have only 1-2 inches of clearance getting in and out of my boat ramp driveway.
I'm thinking either put the receiver on top of the bumper, or burn a hole in the bumper and weld one in there.
I've dealt with turbo machinery repair shops for the duration of my career. I try not to talk anyone into something they have no ownership of. But I don't deal with stupid very well either.

[gearhead]

Old gearhead hard at work supervising the repair of a 14,000 RPM natural gas compressor from a Gulf of Mexico deepwater platform. The week before Thanksgiving.

[JRTJH]

If there is room, you could cut off the existing bumper and stand-offs, position the new receiver so the bottom of it is where the bottom of the old bumper was and then install the new bumper above that. Since it's all going to be new, you can pretty much position it where you want. Take a good look at how far down your Filon rear panel goes, if it's like the Cougars, your bumper is pretty much below that level. Raising it enough to include a receiver may actually offer more protection to the frame and the filon than the existing position does.

I agree, the easiest way to have a welder disown a problem is to tell him exactly how to do the job and then complain when it burps on you.

I think you're on the right track, now just fine tuning it so you can describe what you want and then let the welder figure it out.

Oh yes, just for grins..... Where are your safety shoes ?????? http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing001.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

[gearhead]

Hank, 3 receivers does sound interesting....that stays in the possible workscope.

[gearhead]

Yes John, I want to come out and then up. I may be limited on height by my electrical power plug though.
I'll take some before and after pics.

[Festus2]

Oh yes, just for grins..... Where are your safety shoes ?????? http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing001.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

Probably in the same place where he keeps his hard hat. :D

[gearhead]

Y'all are close! But those are Wolverine safety shoes. They fit in a carry on bag better than boots!
However, my safety glasses are hanging on my shirt! Don't tell the boss.
Fortunately most vendor repair shops don't require a hard hat. 35 years of wearing one in the plant was more than enough.
But there are 2 of them in my garage. One is the most valued "vintage" one with some ancient stickers on it. It's kinda a redneck proof of "saltiness". Show up on a job with a brand new clean hard hat and you'll get the looks.
This conversation took a strange twist. LOL

[JRTJH]

If you're considering carrying a ladder with you, the folding 6' step ladders (7' is also available) will "almost fit" in a 4x4 rear bumper. If you can figure a way to increase the vertical size just a "tad", the new bumper would be a perfect place to store a ladder like this: http://www.amazon.com/GP-Logistics-SLDS6-Ladder/dp/B002PNMMOC/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1417913588&sr=1-1&keywords=SLD-S6+ladder



It'll also help with that "rear loading" you're looking for to lighten the pin weight LOL

[gearhead]

Haha. Smitty's told me I wouldn't be able to carry my dump hose in the new bumper because the I.D. would be too small. That IS a cool ladder though.
I was thinking about that weight discussion and about weighing before the new bumper is installed. Just wondering if it will help! Maybe I could go to .500" wall on the new bumper? Put a 800# bumper on it!

[JRTJH]

You could put an 800 lb bumper on it, but I'm thinking with the other stuff you want to add, you're going to have to wait till the next upgrade on Ford's 6.7 so you can get a truck strong enough to pull it if you keep "adding stuff" LOL

Part of the "allure" of the Montana High Country line is the "helium technology" that (they say) removes 1300-2500 pounds from the overall weight. I don't think the concept was for Keystone to remove it so you could add it back, especially in an "armor plate bumper" Pretty soon it'll be like you're riding one of these: http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-transport025.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

[gearhead]

But the DW usually packs 28 pairs of shoes for a 2 week trip! I need to counter balance!
The weld shop told me what the thickness was the first time I talked to them about 2 weeks ago. I really don't remember though. I'm thinking a bit under .250".
I've got 400# of spare payload. This is mostly theoretical conversation. If we do the washer/dryer, that will soak up 150# though.
So I do need to keep an eye on my weights.

[JRTJH]

Yup, you're getting close to that "cigar" there...... Between the washer/dryer, the FW tank, you'll be "at max capacity". Don't forget that if you dry camp and don't have a place to empty nearby, you'll also be dragging all that water forward of the axles (along with some solid waste as well). That extra could make for an "interesting tow home", depending on how rough the roads are.....

Also consider that as "cheap" as Keystone is, if they took out 1300-2500 lbs of trailer weight, you can bet they also lightened the frame/suspension to compensate...... Don't ya just gotta love 'em for all the "help" they give us ?????
.
28 pairs of shoes for 2 weeks???? No wonder you made the comment that the washer/dryer would go on "your side" of the closet..... as will the "rest of her shoes" LOL

[gearhead]

I told her we only have about 30 gallons of grey and black tanks. You better take a Navy shower again baby.
Most big racetracks have a honey wagon to empty tanks, for a price. I haven't used one yet though.
I sometimes wonder who, if anyone builds a quality RV, and at what price.

[Ayotte]

Remember that if you have any tanks, fresh or gray and black at the back of the camper you do not want the hitch welded to the frame at some point in time you might have to get at the tank and if not you the next owner. My welding shop welded four pieces down from the frame and then built the hitch to fit in between them and bolted with four bolts through each of the four plates. Very strongly built!!!!

[gearhead]

Yeah, I thought about that. I was looking at it and thinking about angled buttresses in from both sides, but that would block ever getting the water tank out.
I don't think this is Smitty's first rodeo. I'll see where they want to go with it.
http://www.smittysrvwelding.com/

[JRTJH]

Remember that if you have any tanks, fresh or gray and black at the back of the camper you do not want the hitch welded to the frame at some point in time you might have to get at the tank and if not you the next owner. My welding shop welded four pieces down from the frame and then built the hitch to fit in between them and bolted with four bolts through each of the four plates. Very strongly built!!!!

Mine was constructed pretty much to avoid blocking the coroplast or the tank above it. Mine spans the entire 6' from frame rail to frame rail, drops down about 6" and is almost completely behind the most rearward frame cross-member. From under the trailer, even the coroplast screws are accessible in front of the hitch framework. It's definitely something that needs to be considered. With the "luck" most of us have, as soon as the hitch "obscures" the FW tank, it will start leaking :(

[gearhead]

Got 'er done. A couple of good welders at Smitty's worked the better part of the day on it. New bumper is .250" wall thickness. Welded the receiver into the middle of the bumper. I gained 2" of clearance. I put the spare tire back on it and dove into Houston rush hour traffic to drive the 40 miles back home. Stopped at a scale and weighed with a full tank of water, drained the tank, and weighed again. Check my other thread for results. I'm whupped...Houston traffic is a killer. Hello Evan Williams...!
I'll download the pics tomorrow.

[gearhead]

Here's what Smitty's did:
Removed the stock bumper and the 4" extensions that it was welded to.
Left the 2" x 2" square tubing that is welded to the bottom of the frame.
Fabricated 4" x 26" x .250" "wings" to weld to the frame on both sides of the 2x2.
The 2x2 was 100% welded to the frame. The wings were welded one a time to the bottom of the frame and the existing 2x2. Every place that could be welded was. So I have about 20" of the wings welded 100% to the frame.
The new bumper is .250" wall and was cut open and the receiver was welded into the center of it.
I gained some ground clearance, and some clearance between the bumper and rear of the trailer wall. Mostly I gained a lot of confidence in the bumper and what I can hang on it. I told Smitty's that all I wanted to do was carry the spare and a couple bicycles. I think I can do that.
It wasn't cheap. Two welders for 7 hours, plus materials came to $625 drive out.
Pics are before, during, and after.

[Bunkhouse]

Does this void the warranty on the frame ?

[JRTJH]

Does this void the warranty on the frame ?

According to the Keystone Owner's Manual, Yes, this does void the warranty on the frame.

However, I think (just my opinion) that it would be a "hard sell" on Keystone's part to deny a claim on an unrelated part of the frame. For example, if there were a problem with the pinbox, superstructure of a fifth wheel, or in the case of a travel trailer, the A frame/coupler or crossmembers/outriggers should have a problem, I don't think (again, my opinion) that Keystone/Lippert could deny coverage for component failure.

However, the Owner's manual does contain this exclusion to the warranty, "• Damage or loss caused in whole or in part by the unauthorized attachments, modifications or alterations to the structure, body, pin box, or frame of the recreational vehicle including but not limited to trailer hitches for towing, or platforms for supporting cargo;..."

[bsmith0404]

Does this void the warranty on the frame ?

There is debate on this, I have never actually seen anything in writing saying it does. The dealership installed the receiver hitch on all 3 of the 5ers I have owned. It has become so common, they actually keep them in stock. At no point was I advised or had to sign anything saying the installation of the hitch would void my warranty.

Now, if you had a frame failure that can be PROVEN to have been caused by the hitch or overloading, I'm sure they could deny a claim.

[JRTJH]

There is debate on this, I have never actually seen anything in writing saying it does. The dealership installed the receiver hitch on all 3 of the 5ers I have owned. It has become so common, they actually keep them in stock. At no point was I advised or had to sign anything saying the installation of the hitch would void my warranty.

Now, if you had a frame failure that can be PROVEN to have been caused by the hitch or overloading, I'm sure they could deny a claim.

Look at this: http://www.keystonerv.com/customer-service/owners-manual

Click on the top link: Revision 4/1/14.

Check page 8, third "triangle with the exclamation point", second bullet statement: "Damage or loss caused in whole or in part by the unauthorized attachments, modifications or alterations to the structure, body, pin box, or frame of the recreational vehicle including but not limited to trailer hitches for towing, or platforms for supporting cargo; ..."

If you contact Keystone Customer Service and ask the question, they will direct you to this provision in the Owner's Manual and inform you that any addition of a hitch, even a bolt on bumper hitch, will void your warranty. They won't tell you "how much of the warranty is voided", but will simply keep referring back to that statement.

[Festus2]

There is debate on this, I have never actually seen anything in writing saying it does. The dealership installed the receiver hitch on all 3 of the 5ers I have owned. It has become so common, they actually keep them in stock. At no point was I advised or had to sign anything saying the installation of the hitch would void my warranty.

Now, if you had a frame failure that can be PROVEN to have been caused by the hitch or overloading, I'm sure they could deny a claim.

The warranty exists between the original owner/purchaser (in this case, you) and the manufacturer - Keystone. The dealership is not in a position to ask you to sign anything since they are not a party to the warranty. The dealership may advise you that any modifications or additions they do could void the warranty but I doubt whether they would do this for two reasons: (1) they could be turning away business; and (2) they are under no obligation to advise you since it is your responsibility to know all the terms of the warranty.

It is also possible that the dealership may not be familiar with all of the warranty terms -- what is covered, not covered and what will void the warranty.

That is why it is important for the buyer - especially during the first year - to exercise caution before doing any modifications or additions to the frame or structure of the RV. While the chances of any subsequent damage caused by those changes are remote, they do exist and the owner should know their possible impact upon the warranty.

[bsmith0404]

Look at this: http://www.keystonerv.com/customer-service/owners-manual

Click on the top link: Revision 4/1/14.

Check page 8, third "triangle with the exclamation point", second bullet statement: "Damage or loss caused in whole or in part by the unauthorized attachments, modifications or alterations to the structure, body, pin box, or frame of the recreational vehicle including but not limited to trailer hitches for towing, or platforms for supporting cargo; ..."

If you contact Keystone Customer Service and ask the question, they will direct you to this provision in the Owner's Manual and inform you that any addition of a hitch, even a bolt on bumper hitch, will void your warranty. They won't tell you "how much of the warranty is voided", but will simply keep referring back to that statement.

Yep, have seen that, but it says the warranty does not cover damage CAUSED by the addition/modification of these items. It does not say that adding them voids the warranty. Going back to the question of does it void the warranty, some will say yes, I still say no (debatable), but it does give them an out to a claim if they can prove the damage was partially the result of the modification. IMO, I'm not going to get concerned about adding a receiver hitch to the last 6" of the frame so I can add a bike rack. If 150 lbs in rack and bikes hanging off the back of two 12" I-beams which supports a 15k lb RV is going to cause a failure...I think there are other issues. If a person is hooking up to a 3k lb boat/trailer, maybe a little more to be concerned about, but you see them all over and seldom hear about frame failures.

[JRTJH]

I think you're arguing semantics. If you're brave enough to be a test case, go for it. I won't advise anyone on the forum to go ahead, modify your frame by adding a hitch, and IF you have any problems, just "duke it out with Keystone" I strongly believe, based on my experience with Keystone that they would refuse any claim on the frame from the axles back if there was a hitch welded to the frame. The forward part of the frame? Who knows, but I wouldn't expect Keystone to jump at fixing anything if the frame has been modified by the owner.

I think the appropriate way to answer a new member's question is to give sound advice that helps them stay within the "intent" of the answer, not to "go out there" and advise them to "live on the edge"

Since the member asked the question and is obviously concerned with whether or not installing a hitch could affect his warranty, the appropriate answer is to give them the information provided in the owner's manual and if there's any interpretation, to provide what background I know (or have personally experienced) and let them make their own judgment.

I wouldn't argue the "right or wrong" of pushing the envelope to the edge and then suggesting that "if you read it this way, I think it means..." Honestly, since Keystone wrote the warranty, the ONLY appropriate interpretation is the "Keystone's way of looking at it". It's not within the realm of the forum to "urge members to do it anyway and then find out if we told you the right or wrong answer."

I'll maintain that modifying the frame will cause warranty claim denial if the modification can be, in any way tied to the failed component. So, the "short answer" is: "Yes, modifying the frame will void the frame warranty, however as stated in my second paragraph of the first response, "I don't think Keystone/Lippert could or would deny a claim on a different part of the frame that wasn't affected by the modification". (That's my thought, and Keystone may well deny any claim on any part of the frame if any part of the frame has been modified in any way. At least that's what I read from their exclusion.

You may interpret it differently, that's certainly your prerogative, but I think it would be inappropriate to suggest to a member that he should install a hitch and not be aware of and concerned with the possibility of warranty denial of any frame problems.

[bsmith0404]

Not sure where I advised a member to install a hitch, I just answered a question of does it void the warranty. Based on my reading of the warranty, and my experience, it does not. The warranty states failure caused by the modification, which in my original response I stated they could deny a warranty claim that was related to the hitch being installed. I believe that is an accurate statement.

Do I install them on my RVs? Yes. I personally don't see an issue with it and it makes the use for my purposes easier/doable. Each person has to make their own decision on modification they make to their equipment. This forum and this thread is full of posts about bumper modifications, rack modifications, and hitches added to trailers because the OE ones quite frankly, are junk.

Btw, I was not debating your original response to the member, if you look at the time of our postings they are listed at 1 minute apart, I was writing my original response at the same time you posted and never saw your response.

[Festus2]

Since the member asked the question and is obviously concerned with whether or not installing a hitch could affect his warranty, the appropriate answer is to give them the information provided in the owner's manual and if there's any interpretation, to provide what background I know (or have personally experienced) and let them make their own judgment.

bsmith0404 wrote: "Each person has to make their own decision on the modification they make to their equipment".

.

It seems that both you and JRTJH are saying pretty much the same thing: Owners should be aware of what is in the owner's manual regarding Keystone's warranty and with this information they are able to make a more informed decision. In the end, it is the owner's choice - based in large part to how the warranty is interpreted.

Since the OP has already carried out the bumper modification, it might be time to put this discussion to rest.

[bsmith0404]

I agree we are saying the same thing. The warranty question was asked by a different member not the OP.

I will add/modify my original response a bit for clarification. As already stated, the dealer is not required to inform if an add on item voids a warranty. I misspoke in my statement of such.

As for a modification or add on part voiding a warranty, the legal answer according to the Magnuson-Moss Act is no. Keystone states in their owners manual that any failures caused by or related to a modification can be denied. This is a correct/legal statement. According to the Magnuson-Moss Act, a manufacturer/warrantor must prove that the failure was caused by the modification. This holds true for not only add on parts such as hitches, but also add on parts such as a performance exhaust on a TV. Hope this provides clarification on warranty laws vs modifications made.

[Festus2]

I agree we are saying the same thing..

Now that we have "all agreed to agree" .... let's move on. :D