2012 Alpine 3450rl

[Annaoinga]

Hi all,
I would love any info on this model please. We found it used at a Camping World and it seems to be well kept. It has a cover and a washer/dryer combo already. Unfortunately the combo isn't vented but I've asked them to swap it for a vented since I've read they are more efficient.

Any items to consider? Things to check for? We are new to this and don't want to make a big mistake!!

We've been focused on new - the warranty and just having everything new seemed so nice but the sites I've been on say buy used to save on depreciation and the bugs should be worked out. Live in it a while to see what it is you really want then upgrade..... I'm not sure I want to go through this process again - it's like a never ending roller coaster ride!

All comments welcomed please!
Thank you,
Anna

[chuckster57]

First thing I would check is the weight rating on your tow vehicle. NEVER listen to the salesperson that tells you "you'll be fine". I can assure you that your safety and the safety of others on the road with you is outweighed by the commission he/she will receive.

Once you have determined the maximum weight your truck can tow, and have in the bed, the hunt is much easier. There are lots of threads explaining how to determine your trucks capacities, and I would suggest taking the time to figure out the limits of your truck before you hitch onto a big rolling box, and find out your in over your head.

Good luck with your search, and if you can't find the information, come back and we will point you in the general direction.

[Annaoinga]

Thanks for the advice!

I learned that the dealers tell you whatever will make their sale. I got 4 different weight limits from 4 different dealers so I called Ford and got my limits from them. We are covered for 15550 but have kept the dry weight trailers to under 13000. So we should be good.

We have a short bed F250 Diesel so negotiated an 18K Pull Rite auto slider hitch with the sale - based on input from other forums.

Thanks for the help and keep it coming!

Anna

[chuckster57]

Don't use dry weights, use the GVWR. IF you get stopped for any reason and checked, that number is what will determine a ticket/ impound.

Weight towed is one consideration. Another is the total weight In and on the truck. I looked and if I remember right, the king pin on your potential purchase is about 2200 lbs.

What is the rear axle rating? How much weight is going to be in the truck (people, pets, gear, fuel etc. ) BEFORE you add the king pin? Hitch will weigh about 100 lbs too so add it in.

[JRTJH]

Thanks for the advice!

I learned that the dealers tell you whatever will make their sale. I got 4 different weight limits from 4 different dealers so I called Ford and got my limits from them. We are covered for 15550 but have kept the dry weight trailers to under 13000. So we should be good.

We have a short bed F250 Diesel so negotiated an 18K Pull Rite auto slider hitch with the sale - based on input from other forums.

Thanks for the help and keep it coming!

Anna

Many new RV'ers think the same as you, the Ford book says "max trailer 15,500 lbs, so I can buy any trailer that's under that weight. That's simply not true.

If you look at your GVW and the Maximum trailer weight, add them together and you will come up with significantly more than the GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating). You CAN tow a trailer that weighs 15,500 lbs, but only with an EMPTY truck. Every pound you add to the truck (passengers, tool box, etc) must be deducted from the trailer maximum weight.

Your GCWR and your truck PAYLOAD are significant and quite often the two won't work together when you start looking at trailers over 12,000 lbs with a 3/4 ton truck.

Actually, your truck will (does) weigh about 8200 lbs, with a GVW of 10,000 lbs that gives you a payload of roughly 1800 lbs, The empty pin weight of the Alpine 3450 is 2240 lbs, so you're very likely to be 400 pounds overloaded even before you put your wife in the truck and any cargo in the trailer.

I'd urge you to do some very serious calculations using ACCURATE data. You can find the data for your truck on the yellow door sticker (payload and GVW) and the information on the EMPTY trailer can be found here: http://www.keystonerv.com/previous-years?brand=Alpine&year=2012

Realize also that the pin weight listed at the Keystone website is for an EMPTY trailer without battery, propane and especially the washer/dryer that sit almost directly over the pin. Those items will add at least 300 pounds to the pin weight before any personal items are added.

I really think you're going to be overloaded even with the empty trailer hitched to your current truck.

Good Luck,

[Festus2]

Many new RV'ers think the same as you, the Ford book says "max trailer 15,500 lbs, so I can buy any trailer that's under that weight. That's simply not true.

Your GCWR and your truck PAYLOAD are significant and quite often the two won't work together when you start looking at trailers over 12,000 lbs with a 3/4 ton truck.

Actually, your truck will (does) weigh about 8200 lbs, with a GVW of 10,000 lbs that gives you a payload of roughly 1800 lbs, The empty pin weight of the Alpine 3450 is 2240 lbs, so you're very likely to be 400 pounds overloaded even before you put your wife in the truck and any cargo in the trailer.

I'd urge you to do some very serious calculations using ACCURATE data. You can find the data for your truck on the yellow door sticker (payload and GVW) and the information on the EMPTY trailer can be found here: http://www.keystonerv.com/previous-years?brand=Alpine&year=2012

I really think you're going to be overloaded even with the empty trailer hitched to your current truck.

Good Luck,

In addition to having to add the weight of all your passengers and anything you put in the bed of the truck - don't forget to add the weight of your 5th wheel hitch - will also decrease the truck's payload.

If you use JRTJH's numbers, you can easily see that you are now at or exceeding the limits and you haven't yet added any weight/cargo to the 5th wheel. By the time you pack your 5th wheel with food, dishes, clothing and all the other camping supplies, propane, batteries, etc., you will be overloaded.

You've got your truck so it might be a good time to reconsider and look at downsizing your 5th wheel.

I think that you will find that most RV'ers who are towing Alpines or other similar-sized 5th wheels are pulling them with a 1 ton- and more likely a 1 t dually.

[therink]

Yes, ignore advertized tow ratings (the weight a truck is rated to pull). Truck Payload ratings and loaded pin weight are the main factors to use.
Example: A fifth wheel with a gvwr of 12000 when loaded will have a pin weight (20 percent) at 2400 lbs. 15,000 gvwr = 3,000 lbs.
In my opinion, a good rule of thumb is:
Fifth wheel with less than 11,000 gvwr = 3/4 ton truck
Fifth wheel with less than 14,000 gvwr = 1 ton SRW
Fifth wheel greater than 14,000 gvwr = 1 ton DRW

[Annaoinga]

This is just too much! Thank you all for explaining this - I don't understand why Ford didn't explain it when I talked to them about pulling a fifth wheel!!! I took the number they gave me and went shopping... Another forum told me to try to stay at 80% of our max to cover the cargo we would add to the fifth wheel but no one explained all this other stuff.

I'm sooo glad I found this site before we closed the deal!!!!

With all this in mind what fifth wheel can we safely tow for full timing or do we have to change trucks again?????

Very disappointed and overwhelmed right now,
Anna:banghead:

[Annaoinga]

So based on Steve's rule of thumb can you guys recommend a good full timing fifth wheel under 11000 gvw??

Thanks,
Anna

[therink]

I cant really help you with a full timing model. If it were me and buying used, i would be looking at some of the higher end brands/models with thermopane windows and better than average R values. While Montanas, Alpines, etc are good units I am not sure how they stand with full time use. I have heard Redwood, Open Range or maybe something like this are good for full timing: http://www.lifestylelrv.com/

I will add that rigs really made for full timing are heavy, most over 11,000 gvwr.

[Annaoinga]

I tried to use the RV Tow Check program but either I pulled the wrong info or something because it says we can only tow 8000 pounds in a fifth wheel.... I don't think they come that light/small do they?

I must have done something wrong..... Any suggestions please??

We have friends who have F250 diesels and they pull fifth wheels with no problems.... What's up??

My axle ratio is 3.73. My gcwr is 23000. My gcwr is 10000. I haven't weighed the truck but someone hear said it weighs 8200. Putting these numbers in and marking to add a hitch I get 8000 fifth wheel weight.... That's without adding a cargo weight or passenger weights.... What am I doing wrong?

Any help will be appreciated!!!

Anna:banghead:

[therink]

Not sure iif you are doing anything wrong. The best way to determine max pin weight for your truck is to load the truck as if full timing. This means passengers, full fuel, all items you would carry in the cab or bed plus add abt 250 lbs for hitch. Take your truck to a scale and weight it. Then Subtract the weight from the truck gvwr and this will tell you what legal capacity is left for the fifth wheel pin.
Remember that the pin weight once you have loaded the fifth wheel, the pin will bear about 20 percent of the total trailer weight. 11,000 lb fiver pin will likely weigh about 2200 lbs. Hope this helps.

[chuckster57]

You'll find lots of people tow huge fifth wheels with single tire 3/4 ton trucks. Is it legal? Probably not. Is it safe? Probably not.

I have been towing a fifth wheel trailer of some nature since 1980 something, and it used to be nobody cared what TV you used. Lots of states are starting to pay attention to us RV people and the potential for revenue based on wrong license and over gross weight.

Here's a simple way to KNOW how much trailer YOUR truck can carry:
load your truck with everything you'll have in it when your hooked on to the trailer including a full tank(s) of fuel, people, gear, tools etc. Go to a CAT scale and get weighed. Then look at the tag on the drivers door and so the math. You need to pay attention to the total weight vs. GVWR and the weight of the rear axle and the rear axle rating.

Most of us that have been "in the game" for a while use and recommend a 1 ton dually as they are much more stable and have higher weight ratings. Along with that, you need to know what the total weight of your rig (truck AND trailer) are, as you may be subject to special endorsements/licenses to be legal.

I'm glad you found this site and are taking the time to get the full picture before finding yourself in a situation that could cause you extreme hardships.

[Festus2]

This is just too much! Thank you all for explaining this - I don't understand why Ford didn't explain it when I talked to them about pulling a fifth wheel!!! I took the number they gave me and went shopping... Another forum told me to try to stay at 80% of our max to cover the cargo we would add to the fifth wheel but no one explained all this other stuff.

I'm sooo glad I found this site before we closed the deal!!!!

With all this in mind what fifth wheel can we safely tow for full timing or do we have to change trucks again?????

Very disappointed and overwhelmed right now,
Anna:banghead:

Don't despair - there are quite a few 5th wheels that you will be able to pull with your new 3/4T truck but I would not include the Alpine or something of that size and weight in the list of possibilities.

After you have had your truck weighed, as suggested above, re-visit the Keystone website to see what models of 5th wheels might fall within your truck's towing capability. There are a several that just might do the trick.

The Redwood (by Thor) was suggested as a good choice for full-timers and while it is a very nice unit (better than an Alpine IMO) it is just as heavy and quite a bit more expensive. Definitely need a 1T for this beauty.

I guess you have to make a decision about what you want to do: upgrade your recently-bought tow vehicle to a 1T or downsize your RV. I'm leaning to keeping your new truck and downsizing. If you "get rid" of your truck now, you'll probably take quite a $$$ beating. If, after a while, you find that your RV is too small and you need something bigger, then at that time start looking for a bigger tow vehicle. Your new 3/4 T will tow a lot of very nice 5th wheels!

You don't have to do everything at once or right now.

[JRTJH]

The ins and outs of towing seem "foreign" and difficult to understand for most new Rv'ers. It's a "mis-mash" of numbers, names, abbreviations and charts that seem to run together with no real meaning.

When you consider the Ford 250, 350 SRW, 350DRW and 450, you must understand that it's the same diesel engine in all of them. The same transmission is used in all but the F450 and with the exception of 3.31, 3.55 or 3.73 rear end ratios, they all are equipped with much the same "dragging abilitiy". That means that your F250 diesel can "drag" pretty much the same weight fifth wheel as the F350 DRW models. The "issue" comes in with suspension capability to "carry" the load associated with the heavier fifth wheel trailers.

You can get the "FORD APPROVED" (and provided) towing guide for the 2015 model Superduty trucks here: http://www.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/towingguides/Prelim15FLRV&TT_SuperDtyPU_Mar27.pdf

Remember that the 3/4 ton truck is the lightest of the HD trucks, it won't carry as much as the 1 ton SRW and nowhere near as much as the 1 ton DRW models. That does NOT mean that the F250 isn't capable of "Dragging" the heavy trailers, it just isn't equipped to handle them in an emergency or under adverse conditions like mountain driving (downhill) and side winds.

You can carry much more than an 8000 lb fifth wheel, I have a gas engine F250 and regularly tow our Cougar 27RKS which has a GVW of 10K. Our usual "travelling weight" is around 8800 lbs with a pin weight of around 1800-2000 lbs. Our payload is 2700 lbs with the gas engine, the diesel weighs about 600 lbs more than the gas engine, so that would reduce our payload to about 2100 lbs. That would put is at or very near payload with our 30' fifth wheel. There's no way we could carry the weight of a 37' fifth wheel, even though our gas engine has the "guts" to "drag it"....

There is significantly more to towing an RV than having the power to move it forward on the highway. I'd speculate that your diesel is capable of "moving forward with a 40' 18,000 lb fifth wheel. The issues you'll face would be overloaded suspension, blown rear tires, inability to stop or maneuver safely, and heaven forbid you should go over a "rough railroad crossing" at 50 MPH with that much trailer in tow, even though your truck will pull it that fast, it won't be a safe or sane tow....

Hope this helps some, use the guide to get the real numbers, don't rely on any salesman, whether at a truck dealer or an RV dealership. Especially be wary of the RV salesman that says, "Oh you've got a superduty diesel? You can tow anything on the lot" He's not being honest and can potentially put you in harms way while he walks away with a hefty commission from selling you the biggest fifth wheel on the lot..... Don't let him do you that kind of "favor"......

Good Luck,

[Annaoinga]

I don't understand why Ford told me we could pull a 15500 fifth wheel and not to worry about hitch weights if that isn't true.

I've cancelled our purchase and I'm done.... For now anyway.....

:banghead:

Anna

[Annaoinga]

I do appreciate everyone's help and all the info! I don't mean to sound ungrateful at all. You guys saved us from what sounds like a dangerous situation and I appreciate it.

I need to have my husband read all these comments cause he needs to understand too. He thinks we can just go by Fords numbers....

Thanks again and I'll revisit RV trader looking at smaller units but with 3 of us and planning on full timing it I think we will need the dually so we can get a unit with enough space so we aren't on top of each other.

My husband was thinking a F350 that isn't a dually but it sounds like we need the dually for stability.

Thanks again you guys!!! (tx)

Anna

[chuckster57]

DRW is the safest IMO. '09 on I 40 at 65MPH. King pin was 1900#, liost a rear tire on the truck. I was able to pull over off the highway with no loss of control.

[Annaoinga]

What does DRW stand for please?

I'm beginning my search do smaller and lighter 5ers. There are quite a few and they look like the others. I guess the difference is in the quality?? Or is it just lighter materials?

What payload or hitch weight should I be looking for please?

Thanks again! You guys are great!!

Anna

[Annaoinga]

Is hitch weight and pin weight the same thing? Should I be more focused on hitch weight, payload capacity, or gvw of the trailer?

For example: I found a Cougar high country with gvw 12225, payload 1665, hitch 1735. I know they said stay below 11000 but since the hitch and payload are so low would it be ok?

It's hard to find some of our "must haves" with gvw under 11000... But I am just starting so I'll keep looking...

Thanks,

Anna. :confused:

[chuckster57]

Dual
Rear
Wheel

Vs.
Single
Rear
Wheel

Fifth wheels come in all sorts of sizes, weights and construction. Materials used can greatly influence weights, such as wood or aluminum framing. Once you've made up your mind on a tow vehicle, then do the calculations as described above.

Then start hunting for any and all units that meet your weight requirements, after that its all about finding a unit that you like. Floor plan is important IMO, take your time and sit in the unit, imagining what your going to be doing. Can you sit and watch TV while your other half is cooking? Can you BOTH sit and watch TV without cranking your necks? Things like that will tell you if the unit is right for you.

Again take your time. Last trailer purchase for me took 3 years, but I KNEW the trailer was right for me when I walked in and spent 30 minutes sitting and moving while my DW did the same.

[JRTJH]

Hitch weight is the weight on the tongue of a conventional travel trailer. Pin weight is the weight on the fifth wheel "pin" of a fifth wheel travel trailer.

For "computing purposes", most people calculate "hitch weight" at 10-15% of total trailer weight and "pin weight" at 20-25% of total trailer weight.

The first thing you need to do is to determine the "available payload" in your truck. Load it with the passengers and cargo you'd normally have in it when towing. Go to a CAT scale and weigh the truck with everyone in it and a full tank of fuel. Subtract that weight from the GVW (10,000 lbs) and that is what's left of your payload to be used for "pin weight" and the weight of the hitch. Most fifth wheel hitch assemblies weigh about 100-150 lbs. What's left after that is the maximum "pin weight" for your fifth wheel.

Your "payload" can be found on the yellow sticker on the driver's door post. It lists the tire size, tire pressure and payload. Remember that figure is calculated with a 150 lb driver and a full tank of fuel. NOTHING ELSE IN THE TRUCK, so anything added after the truck left the factory must be deducted from that payload. Any bed mat, mud flaps, tool box, floor mats, cargo container under the rear seat, or anything else you've added or that the dealer added must be considered as "increased truck weight". It's much easier and more accurate to simply find a CAT scale and weigh the truck as it would be loaded for travel.

Good luck.

[Annaoinga]

Thanks again!

I realized last night (when I couldn't sleep) that the site I was on showed the RV cargo limits as its Payload Capacity.... DUH...

My husband is right I'm getting too stress over this. I'm taking your advice and slowing down. There is no rush since my husband doesn't retire for another year. I was just anxious to start traveling at least in our home state his last year before we hit the open road.

I'll see if we can't take the truck this weekend and get it weighed. That will give me a starting point. The site I was on did show the fifth wheels with "Hitch weights" which should be pin weights from what you told me. My husband thinks since it's a 3/4 ton truck we should be able to handle 1500 pin weight but I think I need to get the weight and do the calculations. Like you said everything we have in the truck weighs and needs to be accounted for. None of us weigh 150 anymore... :( wish we did... :)

Thanks for all your patience and help and I'm so glad I found you guys!!!!

I found a couple Cougars that had very similar floor plans to what we had picked out. I'll have to visit them at our next RV Show in Jan!


Anna

[therink]

Anna
Remember, ignore the fifth wheel pin weights listed on manufacturers website. Those are the dry weights of the rig as they leave the factory. A fifth wheel pin will weigh about 20 percent of the trailer once it is loaded. When trailer shopping, you are better off looking at the gvwr of the trailer and assuming the loaded pin will weigh 20 of the gvwr. Just have to do the math on a rig by rig basis.

[bsmith0404]

IMO, since you are talking about going full time and doing some traveling vs. parking on a perm site, find the floor plan you like/love and then get the TV to match. You will be living in this RV, don't settle because your truck is too small if you have the means to upgrade the truck. As for the Alpine you were looking at, we don't have the same floor plan, but do love our Alpine. It definitely needs a 1 ton dually. I pulled mine once with our 2500, once was enough. As you mentioned, you have time, take it and get a combo you will be happy with. The last thing you want to do is get a new 5er that meets your truck capabilities, a year down the road decide you don't like it and upgrade both truck and camper. Not sure how big you need to go so you don't feel cramped, but I think you will have a tough time finding a full time quality unit with a pin weight under 2k lbs. Keep in mind, full timers tend to carry more cargo with them as well.

[Annaoinga]

Thanks for the advice. We have decided to buy new - we found a dealer that is offering some great discount. He is going to install air bags and we will pull it home and see how it does. If it strains we will start looking for a dually to swap to. Can't pass up the deal on one I think we will be happy in full timing.

It's either a 2015 Montana 3610RL, 2014 Montana 3725RL or 2015 Big Horn 3010RE. Any opinions on these models?

Also, can you plug a 50amp unit into a 30 amp slot if you don't run both ACs? That's all they have at the park by the place we are picking up the camper from....

Thanks,

Anna(tx)

[Festus2]

Also, can you plug a 50amp unit into a 30 amp slot if you don't run both ACs? That's all they have at the park by the place we are picking up the camper from....

Thanks,

Anna(tx)

30A will limit you to running 1 A/C --- you may have to watch what other heavy current items (HW heater on electricity, microwave, toasters, etc.) that you have running at the same time as your A/C. You'll soon find out when the breaker trips if you have exceeded 30A.

Have a safe trip home.

[outwest]

Thanks for the advice. We have decided to buy new - we found a dealer that is offering some great discount. He is going to install air bags and we will pull it home and see how it does. If it strains we will start looking for a dually to swap to. Can't pass up the deal on one I think we will be happy in full timing.

It's either a 2015 Montana 3610RL, 2014 Montana 3725RL or 2015 Big Horn 3010RE. Any opinions on these models?

Also, can you plug a 50amp unit into a 30 amp slot if you don't run both ACs? That's all they have at the park by the place we are picking up the camper from....

Thanks,

Anna(tx)
As long as you have the proper adapter and be careful not to try to run too much at once (turn off air when using microwave, etc)

[bsmith0404]

The power question has already been answered. As for the models. We looked at Montana, Big Horn/Big Country as well. Went with Alpine because we got a much better deal and didn't see much difference between the Montana. The Big Horn/big Country was a nice unit, but we felt they skimped on some items that just cheapened the deal. Example, closet closures. They had the plastic clips vs the metal locks we have on the Alpine.