Unusual Tire Wear!

[Lawdogs]

Started to have usual tire wear on my 2014 Cougar 327 RES 5er. The front passenger side tire on the trailer was wearing from the outside in. The tire was feathering. (And yes, tires are inflated to 80 psi and lug nuts are torqued to 120 lbs before the trailer ever moves.) Now that I noticed the wear, it appears that tire is visibly toed in (or, is it psychology). I went to the dealer where I bought the trailer to ask what I need to do, to get the issue fixed. They gave me a date when I could drop the trailer off and suggested I contact Lippert. When I contacted Lippert, they suggested I contact Keystone as the trailer was still under the 1 year warranty. Called Keystone and they told me to take the trailer back to the dealer.:banghead:
Dropped the trailer off today but did some documentation before I did so.
First thing I did was weigh the trailer. Did not want them to come back and say that it was an over loaded trailer that caused the problem. See the attachment: weight ticket.
Trailer and truck weighed. Trailer and truck loaded with normal camping load. Axles on the trailer are rated at 5200 lbs. Combine axle rating of 10400 lbs. Scale weighed trailer at 9420 lbs on the axles.
Curb weight of tow vehicle is 7700 lbs (full tank of fuel). Add two occupants (300 lbs), two dogs (135 lbs) fifth wheel hitch (150 lbs), miscellaneous items (15 lbs) estimated weight of tow vehicle is around 8300 lbs. Calculated weight of the trailer (as weighted) is 11,800 lbs. Trailer rated to 12,135 GVWR as indicated on manufactures’ sticker on the side of the trailer.
I also used a straight edge to show about 1/4 of an inch of toe in. Also added pictures of the depth of the tread using a tire depth gauge. Pictures were take of tire from the exterior and interior side to show that there were no scrubs, rubs or marks. These tires have never been curbed. If it was caused by hitting a pothole I would think it would have caused a more of a toe out issue.
I think I have done everything I need to plead my case.

[Lawdogs]

Measurement of the tire tread. 7/32 of tread on the inside of the tire and 4/32 of tread on the outside of the tire.

[Lawdogs]

Exterior and interior pictures of the tire. Never curbed or abused.

[chuckster57]

There will be a form that the dealer will have to obtain from Lippert. On that form will be a generic schematic of a trailer frame and the two axles. The service department (tech) will have to take and record a series of precise measurements on that form. Once it is filled out, Lippert may determine the repair if any. I have done a few and the measuring part doesn't take that long, but I have seen forms rejected and new measurements be required.

I hope your issue gets resolved to your satisfaction, but understand it may take a while.

[GaryWT]

Would hope that it is not a battle. Hopefully they will just take care of it. Good luck.

[JRTJH]

I'd have to ask if you really thought Keystone would suggest any option other than to take your trailer to the dealer? That would be the start for any repair attempt, for "Keystone's agent (dealership)" to assess the problem and report their findings. Seems like the logical thing to do, doesn't it?

I would question why, before even discussing the issue with the dealer or hearing their plan for repair/replacement, that things have to be confrontational? Sometimes it seems like customers want to "come out swinging" even if there's no fight to attend.

How about we all wait and see what the dealership, Keystone and possibly Lippert do before we start putting on the boxing gloves, eh?

[Lawdogs]

If you read my post, you would have read that I started at the dealership first, then started to get shuffled around ( was told to call Lippert first ).
The title of my post was meant to be a little sarcastic humor. I guess it failed. As far as the gloves coming off...when I spoke to the dealership about my issue, I asked them about axle alignment (not knowing the reason for the issue). First words out of there mouths "fifth wheel axles can not be aligned".:confused: What is the purpose of the alignment plate on the correct track system?
When ever I come up against something new that I don't know much about, I start doing my research. Left the dealership and went to another RV service center. This service center stated that they could fix the trailer but they where not approve to do Keystone warranty work. Called a spring and trailer shop, and described my issue. Without even discussing bring the trailer in for an assessment, I was told I would need a new axle. Searched this forum for every post that dealt with tire wear and axle alignment. By the way, all of these activities were being done while I was waiting for my call to be answered by Lippert and Keystone (left a message). I get it, they are busy!
As far as sitting back and waiting to see what happens...no way!!! I have been in law enforcement for 23 years and I am a active reservist in the military. It is not in my nature to just sit back and go with the flow. I pray for peace but prepare for battle. All to often, I see people sit back and wait to see what happens (like sheep). It usually does not bode well for them.
It was and is my intention to update this post as I work through this issue. If all goes well, I will be the first to sing the praises of my dealership, Keystone and/or Lippert. If not, I hope to provide insight on how I resolve the issue.
I would never go out hunting squirrels with a howitzer, but would have one just in case I need one. No, I don't hunt squirrels...I'm just saying.
I apologize if I ruffled some feathers!!! It was not my intention.
Thank you Chuckster57 and GaryWT for the information and words of encouragement.

[Bob Landry]

It appears to me that the LEO mentality has kicked in. It will be interesting to see what the arm-twisting-to-results ratio is going to be.

[JRTJH]

That is my point exactly, Bob. It sure looks like this guy is already in the "You're wrong and this is what you're going to do to make me happy" mode. All before his dealership even has an opportunity to examine his rig to see what's wrong with it.

He will find that by pushing his dealership, proving he is "a wronged customer and knows some stuff" isn't going to get his trailer repaired any faster or instill in the dealership a sense of "meet the warranty obligations" any more effectively.

My thoughts, for what they are worth, is to "CHILL DUDE", let the dealership look at your trailer and give you their repair plan. THEN, if you don't agree, discuss the options with them, and take action as needed. Don't post "battle plans" on some internet site in preparation for some "big operation" that may well not even be needed.

As for hunting squirrels with a howitzer, before even lugging that thing into the woods, it's first a wise action to do a little scouting to get the lay of the land and to see if there's even squirrels in that area to hunt. Take the trailer to the dealer and let him do his job, you may be surprised.

[grayghost03]

Looks like you have Correct Track system, should be a pretty easy fix. Not a big deal, Tire wear, and tire replacement may be your may fight.

[2014301ktmhauler]

Wow! " Law Enforcement Mentality"
If they only knew...........

[mazboy123]

i don't see a battle, work with the dealer.

[SAABDOCTOR]

start out by demanding and a combative attitude. Note in the customer line in the service dept." this guy is nuts appointments 4 weeks out next time" Try being nice!:cool:

[D.C.]

It can indeed be aligned. I had a tire on the front axle on one side wearing on the outside and a rear tire on the other side wearing on the outside.
Got new tires and had it lined up. Now perfect. I think it came from the factory that way.

Weird things come out of factories. I had 3 load range E 16" tires and 1 load range D 16" tire. I gave them a choice of 4 new tires the same or find one to match the other 3. Took a few weeks but I got one.

[Albert]

I also worked in law enforcement for over 30 years. It is much easier to come in low key and escalate if need be. Hard to back down once you come in with your guns blazing. The guys going in "prepared for war" were the guys that always got in fights and called for "cover." Us low key guys had to respond to help them out and clean up the mess they created.

A few pushy cops give us all a bad name.

John

[chuckster57]

If you read the OP's first post, and take it in its totality, I can see where he isn't "coming in hot" but rather with all his facts and documentation, PREPARED for battle.

Just the observations of a 25+ yr retired LEO.

[Lawdogs]

Spoke with the dealership yesterday. All of the measurements have been completed. It took a little longer due to the fact that Lippert sent a second form asking for additional measurements. At some point in time, the dealership will let me know how Lippert wishes to proceed. As of right now, my trailer is sitting in my driveway ready for driveway camping.
Thank you Chuckster57 for your last post. I have reread my post several times and tried to figure out why folks think I am looking for a confrontation. I believe my title might have started me off on the wrong foot. It was my attempt at sarcastic humor. BIG FLOP. If a moderator has the ability to change the title, I would ask they change it to something like: Unusual tire wear.
No where in my post have I bad mouth my dealership, Keystone or Lippert. I have a very good relationship with my dealership. I only stated that I believe I received some misinformation. I have bought 4 trailers from them in the past and have been happy with all 4. I have often gone to the dealership to just shoot the bull with the staff (dealership is only 4 miles from the house).
I have not twisted any arms or threaten anyone in hopes of getting repairs done and done fast. Nor am I being pushy with the dealership. I am realistic enough to know these things take time. There are a lot of trailers needing attention at the dealership. They are doing their best to address everyone's issues.
No where in my post have I laid down battle or operational plans. I merely did some documentation before taking the trailer to the dealership. The servicing personal actually thanked me for putting together the package. She said the technician would appreciate the additional information.
I agree that pushy, over zealous police officers give the rest of those in law enforcement a bad name. I do not believe that being forward thinking and prepared to answer questions puts me in that category. Officer presents and thoughtful conversation has gotten me out of more confrontations then I carry to thing about.
I have never demanded anything from the dealership, Keystone or Lippert. As stated before, I will sing their praise or post the steps taken to resolve the issue. And, I am not nuts...my mommy had me tested. :)

[Javi]

Big Bang fan...:D

[Festus2]

Thank you Chuckster57 for your last post. I have reread my post several times and tried to figure out why folks think I am looking for a confrontation. I believe my title might have started me off on the wrong foot. It was my attempt at sarcastic humor. BIG FLOP. If a moderator has the ability to change the title, I would ask they change it to something like: Unusual tire wear.
No where in my post have I bad mouth my dealership, Keystone or Lippert. I have a very good relationship with my dealership. I only stated that I believe I received some misinformation. I have bought 4 trailers from them in the past and have been happy with all 4. I have often gone to the dealership to just shoot the bull with the staff (dealership is only 4 miles from the house).

I have not twisted any arms or threaten anyone in hopes of getting repairs done and done fast. Nor am I being pushy with the dealership.
No where in my post have I laid down battle or operational plans. I merely did some documentation before taking the trailer to the dealership. The servicing personal actually thanked me for putting together the package. She said the technician would appreciate the additional information.
:)

Moderator's Note: As requested, the title has been changed to "Unusual Tire Wear".

[Ken / Claudia]

Nothing wrong with being prepared and documenting every thing you do and having a plan. In fact having plan A, B and just in case C. Those who have not needed to think about going to work today and living to see tomorrow may or may not understand that point. But, it is how you make it to retirement. Just putting this out there comparing the local ford dealership and the Keystone dealership. Ford service dept. works 6 days a week from 8a to 12p. Has 20? vehicles being worked on in the shop. Keystone 5 days aweek, 8a to 6p. looked like they handle about 5 trailers at a time. The RVs will just take longer to fix based on numbers. How each gets factory repairs OKed I do not know.

[chuckster57]

.... Just putting this out there comparing the local ford dealership and the Keystone dealership. Ford service dept. works 6 days a week from 8a to 12p. Has 20? vehicles being worked on in the shop. Keystone 5 days aweek, 8a to 6p. looked like they handle about 5 trailers at a time. The RVs will just take longer to fix based on numbers. How each gets factory repairs OKed I do not know.

The Ford dealership only does "get readies" for Ford vehicles sold, and probably services few of any other brands. RV dealers on the other hand don't carry just one brand of units. For example we carry Keystone, Cruiser, Forest River, Pacific Coachworks, Grand design, Tiffin and Pleasureway. Only have 3 bays 3 techs. Repair authorization requires lots of documentation and pictures.

Having been involved in a few of these tire wear/axle issues, I can tell you from my experiences it can drag on and have multiple "re submits" of the same form. If/when a repair is authorized then the parts are ordered, then shipped.

Hope this isn't the case here, but I've seen the factory authorize heavier axles and then send the lower rated ones.... twice in one case. Then it has to be scheduled into a techs work flow....

Hope this clears up some confusion.

[Ken / Claudia]

Thanks Chuck for pointing that out. My point was a guess at best but, showing that rv repairs do take longer than some think they should perhaps based on how long it takes to get their cars etc. to get fixed. Good to have you on here. Ken

[SAABDOCTOR]

Big bang eh? And you are nuts you own a house that rolls!:d i like the second heading better!!

[b52bomber]

I have a 2014 High country cougar 327res. I called Keystone in Sept to get information on my sagging area around the kingpin. I called them back today because they never responded after they asked for pictures. Now they want me to take it back to Campingworld to have them try a second time to fix it. Keystone is very slow at doing anything. Very sad for a large company. I have not had any tire issues as you describe at this time. My lippert level display panel went out though.We will see how long that takes to replace under warranty. Hope you get your tire issue fixed soon.

[gearhead]

I must be missing the point about comparing RV service to auto service. I don't recall ever having to wait on the auto manufacturer to approve a warranty repair. A blown engine or transmission would require an approval but not the routine items that RV shops claim they have to remove and send back to the vendor for approval. The vendor not Keystone has to approve it. Can you imagine having to have Johnson Control or some Chinese manufacturer have to approve a replacement for your Ford?
RV service is possibly the worst managed business I've encountered. I rarely wish for more government involvement but this is one place that really needs it.

[chuckster57]

I must be missing the point about comparing RV service to auto service. I don't recall ever having to wait on the auto manufacturer to approve a warranty repair. A blown engine or transmission would require an approval but not the routine items that RV shops claim they have to remove and send back to the vendor for approval. The vendor not Keystone has to approve it. Can you imagine having to have Johnson Control or some Chinese manufacturer have to approve a replacement for your Ford?
RV service is possibly the worst managed business I've encountered. I rarely wish for more government involvement but this is one place that really needs it.

Actually KEYSTONE, not the vendor must authorize the repair. Same for all the other manufacturers that we deal with, so I bet it's an industry standard. And yes we are required to document the fault with supporting evidence (photo's) prior to authorization, and if the RV manufacturer asks, we have to send the defective part back. In this particular case, the axle manufacturer will be involved as they supplied the part but didn't install it on the RV, and failure may have been material (vendors responsibility) or poor install (Keystone's responsibility).

Worst managed business? Spend 25+ yrs working for a government agency and then come to the RV service industry.... you'll change your mind.

[JRTJH]

The Keystone Owner's Manual explains the company position on appliance/component warranty (during the one year Keystone warranty) on page 11. Here's the statement made by Keystone:

"For the appliance and component manufacturers providing warranties, Keystone does, however, administer those warranties during the term of this one year Limited Warranty except for tires, batteries, generators and washer, dryer. All warranty service claims on components must therefore be directed during the one year of this Limited Warranty to Keystone. After the one year period, all appliance and component warranty claims must be directed to the
respective appliance and component manufacturers.

Keystone is not warranting any appliance or components and is only representing that it is authorized to administer the services for such products during the one year term of the Limited Warranty. In no way shall
Keystone’s Limited Warranty be modified or amended by Keystone providing administrative services for appliances and components."

Essentially, what the manual says is that during Keystone's one year warranty, they have an agreement with the component manufacturers that Keystone will administer, coordinate and approve the individual warranty for components and after that one year, then it is the owner's responsibility (or the dealer's responsibility) to contact the individual manufacturer for warranty approval. Essentially, Keystone pays for the repair during the first year and gets reimbursement from the component manufacturer. After that year, Keystone is out of the loop.

As Chuckster57 stated, if there is a "shared use" responsibility such as the axles, then Keystone usually includes the component manufacturer from the beginning since there will likely be questions about whether it is a component failure or an installation failure...

[gearhead]

All I have for experience is my recently repaired Dometic refrigerator. Without getting into too many details, the selling dealership tried to repair it twice and didn't. I then took it to an independent repair shop. After the shop consulted with Dometic a new cooling unit was shipped. Three more attempts by Dometic and the shop finally got the correct and undamaged parts, and the unit was fixed. The unit was purchased July 1 and the refrigerator never worked. It went to the independent shop Aug 28 and we got it back Oct 21.
I most likely threw a curve in the process by using an independent shop. But I had lost what little faith I had in the selling dealership and was desperate. The selling dealership would have dealt with Dometic directly as well.
I don't agree with the comparison to auto dealers. The dealer we have bought our last three autos from sells Chevy, Ford, and Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep. At any given time all those makes are in the shop. I also know that several independent Corvette shops are authorized to do warranty work.
My perception of RV dealers is that they are focused on selling RV's, and not servicing them. Either they are not compensated well from the manufacturer for warranty work, or don't really see any point in service if they will not get the return on investment as they would in sales.
Ok...rant over..off my soapbox.

[chuckster57]

My perception of RV dealers is that they are focused on selling RV's, and not servicing them. Either they are not compensated well from the manufacturer for warranty work, or don't really see any point in service if they will not get the return on investment as they would in sales.

Ok...rant over..off my soapbox.


Your perception is probably not far off for SOME RV dealers, but the same can be said for auto/truck dealers too. I'm sorry your experience with your refrigerator was bad, and I hope it doesn't sour your attitude towards ALL RV dealers.

[gearhead]

No, I'm good with it. It was just a painful learning experience. I left the ugly details out, but I'll say it is a huge dealership on the west side of Houston. There have been new faces in the service department every time I have been there. My "personal service advisor" is no longer employed there. No surprise.
The same company has another dealership near Houston that I hear has a decent service department. They are actually a bit closer to me. But if any future warranty work does not involve anything Keystone built, I'll use the independent repair shop.

[JRTJH]

Many people prefer the "face to face personality" and individual personal attention they get at a small "family run" repair center. It's not just in the RV business, but at smaller automobile dealerships as well. There's something to be said about walking in on a Thursday afternoon and being greeted by your first name rather than standing in line waiting for someone to even acknowledge that you're in the building while you listen to someone at the counter argue about how much their bill is.

I think the best "Ford service" I have ever received was at Ken Brady Ford in LeCompte, LA. They didn't have a facility large enough to even put one car "in" the showroom and they had 4 service bays, but when I drove up, the service manager came outside to say hello, offer a cup of coffee and ask how he could help me. He knew my name, my truck, my past service history and remembered who sold the truck to me. It wasn't "reinventing the wheel" and trying to establish who I was every time I went in for an oil change.

If given the choice, I much prefer a small service facility who knows me and my Cougar, rather than a large, "too busy" service center where nobody even knows (or can find) my past service record, they have to search the lot to find my RV when I come to pick it up and there's nobody who can tell me what they did or even what they found when they worked on it.

[gearhead]

Mega dittos as they say John. My car dealership is in Sour Lake, a small town between Houston and Beaumont. Great folks with great service. And unfortunately, they know my name. LOL