QC/Axle issue on brand new Hideout

[jshupe]

I picked up a new 2015 Hideout 260LHS this morning. When walking around the trailer, the first thing I noticed was that the rear axle was oddly articulated and I pointed it out to my sales rep. He assured me that it was just the Correct Track system, and after we went back and forth a couple times about it, I figured he would know better than I and went on with the walkthrough.

On the 82 mile drive home, at 70mph highway speeds, it felt like there was a good amount of rolling resistance that I didn't expect, and I only averaged about 8mpg. I expect 10-12, so 20+% less than this combined with the rolling resistance I didn't expect kept me pretty worried. I stopped a few times to check the trailer and the axle remained positioned as it was at the dealer, so I decided the rear shackle (on the passenger side of the TV) was probably too far back, and made a mental note to file a warranty claim.

When I got it home and into the driveway, I took some pictures and called Keystone to see if a dealer closer to me could handle the repair. They referred me to two dealers. I called the first one and they said that since they don't sell Hideouts, Keystone will not pay them for warranty work, and the other one I was referred to said there is a six week wait for warranty repairs. I finally called the original dealer back and ended up sending them the photo I took. They replied that they would call me back tomorrow about having it repaired. That photo is below, taken with blue masking tape strung across the wheel well to use as a reference point.

http://i.imgur.com/HwAvAtQ.jpg

After a while, I decided to go back and take a look under the trailer again. I found that on the driver side of the TV, the rear leaf on the trailer is completely disconnected! I just sent the dealer the photo of the disconnected leaf and hope to hear back from them tomorrow, but at this point I'm livid about them not taking my concern seriously, and having to drive home with what I consider to be a fairly dangerous condition. What do you guys think? See the second photo below:

http://i.imgur.com/Ni2ETRJ.jpg

[TFMCKANNA]

Sorry to hear/see your leaf spring issue. IF it's just a disconnected bolt that should be an easy fix, either at the RV dealer or any nearby boat trailer facility. WHY it's disconnected may be the real issue. good luck.

[bg71361]

Do not drive/move it fix it where it sits!

[GaryWT]

Since they screwed up they should send a road crew out to fix it, many rv dealer have mobile repair vans. As for mpg, I am sure the the situation had something to do with it but also the Hideout is a more flat front trailer I believe plus going 70 will lead to lower gas mileage. Be careful as most rv tires are only rated at 65 mph. Good luck

[chuckster57]

OUCH! I agree, don't move it until its fixed, or at least a bolt installed to secure the spring pack. How and why it happened may never be truly figured out.

I realize it's late advise, but I have found salespeople only "know" how to sell stuff, from here on out, if you have any questions, bring them up with the service manager and make him/her do whatever it takes to make YOU comfortable. I hope this bad start doesn't sour your taste for the RV lifestyle.

[jshupe]

Since they screwed up they should send a road crew out to fix it, many rv dealer have mobile repair vans. As for mpg, I am sure the the situation had something to do with it but also the Hideout is a more flat front trailer I believe plus going 70 will lead to lower gas mileage. Be careful as most rv tires are only rated at 65 mph. Good luck

Absolutely. I'm only expecting about 10mpg, based on what I've read from other RVers on various forums. As for the tires, I wasn't aware of that and assumed 70 would be the highest safe speed, but I'll tune it down to 65 in the future. Even with the issues, the trailer pulled pretty well, just not exactly as I expected. I definitely won't be moving it far, if at all, myself with the disconnected leaf.

[jshupe]

I hope this bad start doesn't sour your taste for the RV lifestyle.

Nah, I understand that these things happen. I'm just upset because I consider this a major safety issue, and it could have easily been avoided. My wife and I, and our brand new trailer and truck, could have been involved in a major accident because of this.

[chuckster57]

Good! I totally understand and agree with you. I hope it get fixed in a timely fashion so you can go camping.

[JRTJH]

Welcome to the forum and to Keystone camping. I'm sorry you wound up with a "situation" your first time at bat. Don't let it get you down and stay focused on the good times ahead.

One consideration you might keep close in mind is the tires on that axle. While they may be OK, there's also a possibility that your RV was towed from the factory in Indiana to Texas with the axle disconnected. There is a possibility that the tires on both ends of the axle may be damaged from running "off track". Have them inspected carefully. Others here are much more experienced than me on what to look for and what potential damage may have been done to the tires, so I'm sure someone will tune in and offer better advice.

Again, welcome to the forum and to Keystone.

[Ken / Claudia]

I am with GARYWT about having the dealer come and fix it before its moved. It is their problem and they need to get it fixed. You could help them by putting in a bolt and taking it back but, no way would I do that. What if you did and your fix comes apart and causes a crash or the dealer/keystone says your fix caused this or that damage and will not pay. I would also ask for at least a tire to replace that one. Good thing you looked it over and found the problem. Let us know what happens at the dealer.

[sourdough]

As has been posted, I wouldn't move the RV. The dealer probably has a mobile repair unit and if not they can pay for one to come make it safe so they can take it back and repair it properly. With a tire at that angle there is a lot of stress put on other components due to the tire trying to push at an angle. At 70mph that force is pretty great.

Someone noted that it may have been hauled from the factory that way and it very well may have been. I think you should have them come fix it good enough to get back to the dealer then completely realign that axle. It is probably, and appears to be, just a straight axle. I'm not sure how the tire sits at such an angle unless the axle itself has shifted. Putting the spring pack back in the hanger may not do you much good other than to help stabilize the axle.

The dealer needs to completely overhaul that axle. They should give you two new tires IMO. I would start with the service manager to see if he will do what he should. If not, escalate to the owner/GM. I would keep escalating until I hit the top of the food chain.

When I bought our new RV at the end of Feb. the sales folks (sales mgr) tried to really pull the wool over our eyes. I went to the GM and that went nowhere. I then communicated with Marcus Lemonis, the CEO of Good Sam/Camping World. He replied to me at 9pm in the evening and had his national VP of sales contact me that evening as well. I ended up with pricing for the new RV coming from the national VP (and it was a SUPER price) and we completely bypassed the sales folks at the dealership. They weren't, and aren't, very happy with me but they know they just got caught trying to be shady. Anyway, escalation does work.

Good luck with the repairs and be very careful with the rig until it is repaired properly.

[jshupe]

They are asking that I pull it to a service center 40 miles away. I'm calling the manufacturer now to see what they will do.

[cabinfever]

From looking at the pic, it appears there was never a bolt tightened down there. My thought is that shackle never got a bolt during the build.

[sourdough]

jshupe

I would insist that THEY pull the trailer to the nearest service center. Once you hook up to it and take off you will have a hard time getting them to take ownership of the problem if something happens. I would just tell them it is too dangerous and that they have already placed you, your family, your TV and your RV in a life threatening position. If you were to hurt or kill someone else their insurance company, and their lawyers, aren't going to go after who sold the trailer; they will go after the person driving it.

[So Cal CPA]

jshupe

I would insist that THEY pull the trailer to the nearest service center. Once you hook up to it and take off you will have a hard time getting them to take ownership of the problem if something happens. I would just tell them it is too dangerous and that they have already placed you, your family, your TV and your RV in a life threatening position. If you were to hurt or kill someone else their insurance company, and their lawyers, aren't going to go after who sold the trailer; they will go after the person driving it.

Quoting to agree. If something happens you will be at at fault and NEGLIGENT because you KNEW of the problem. Double whammy! This is a huge risk and safety issue. Make them come get it.

[JRTJH]

X3... The very LAST thing you need now is the liability of hurting someone or yourself "doing them a favor"... Yes, for you to tow it somewhere for repair is taking the responsibility off their shoulders and putting it squarely on yours. I'd simply tell them that they need to come repair it in the driveway or they can assume the liability of towing it to any repair center they choose.

I'd also remind them that while towing it, if they do any further damage, they need to just order you a replacement trailer as you didn't buy a "second hand repaired RV" and you're not going to accept one.

I'd also remind the GM/sales manager that the only reason they are in this position is because of the "garbage" their salesman spewed about "It's supposed to look like that".

Don't let them reposition the problem from "theirs" to "yours".

[bg71361]

X4 and here is your fourth in agreement, if they want to move it let them assume the liability of moving it.

[jshupe]

Thanks everyone. The dealer is still wanting me to take it somewhere, but the manufacturer seems to agree with you.

The lady at Keystone is just having trouble finding a mobile tech to come fix it... I'll keep you posted.

[jshupe]

At this point the mobile tech they referred me to is out of business, and the nearest dealer that I'm supposed to tow it to has a one month wait to see it.

I have absolutely no recourse and this is leaving me with bitter feelings towards Keystone. Not only is there a huge quality control and safety issue here, they don't seem to be able to handle it in a timely manner within their dealer network. I'm located in Austin, so a fairly large metro area, and nobody is able to touch it in less than a month. And regardless of who works on it, the dealers are all insisting that I pull the trailer to them. I'm waiting on final say from Keystone themselves tomorrow (they leave at 4EST), but it doesn't sound like they can offer much help. I'm tempted to find a grade 8 chassis eye bolt and correct it myself because I can't wait four weeks. I've already lost one night's camp fees because I had to cancel a trip on short notice (this weekend), and have another trip coming up in two weeks that I will not miss.

[sourdough]

I know you want to go and use the RV. You are making a huge mistake - camp fees or not. I'm sure the life of you and your family, the destruction of the RV or TV is as little as a weeks camp fees. I'ts just money - lives are lives and the loss of the RV or TV would be far, far more than some camp fee. Plus, if you WERE to hurt someone else you could very easily be in jail for quite a long time (see note above about being negligent/knowingly driving defective equipment)....is the camp fee worth that?

I would be proactive. Find the mobile tech yourself. It's been a while but I used to spend quite a bit of time in Austin and even then there were quite a few places that handled RVs. I am positive there are mobile RV techs in Austin or within 25-30 miles. If you can't come up with something there call the largest RV campground you can find (KOA might be good) and ask them if they know who the mobile techs are. Find the tech, call Keystone and give them that information and tell them you are going to have them come get your RV and take it to the dealer. Call the dealer, tell them the RV is on its way and to put it at the front of the line. If needed, refresh their memory of them sending you on a death trip intentionally. You have taken pictures, show them to them (they illustrate the problem well) and tell them if you don't have the unit back by the end of next week the next time they see you it will be in court....for repairs, damages (lost camp fees/lost vacation/mental anguish/keyboard time on the forum....just kidding) and personal suits againsst the salesman and the GM for intentionally selling the RV with intent to do great bodily harm or cause death. Pile it up and drop it in their lap.

Do all of that and whatever else you can think of before you take off towing that trailer without it being repaired properly. You are playing poker with the dealership. They are bluffing and you have to call that bluff and put them in their place. If you haven't spoken to the GM you need to. I would be in his office in front of him.

If you do decide to put a grade 8 bolt in the hanger, please, check the alignment of the axles, status of the tires, hubs, lug bolts etc. I'm afraid you have a bigger problem than just slapping a bolt through the bracket and the spring eye. To align the axle you will need to be able to lift the trailer off the axles; do you have the equipment to do that?

Keystone, left to their own, is incredibly slow. I had a sliding door roller bust due to an improper installation on our maiden trip to FL earlier this year. When I arrived I called the Camping World dealership in Tallahassee, worked with the service manager and provided photos etc. It took Keystone NINE days to approve the repair, and then, after it was approved, it took them 17 days to send the rollers to the dealer for ME to install. You will have to stay on them and never "wait" on them. Give them timelines and then harrass them if need be. Always remember, your problem is of no importance to anyone but...you.

I wish you the best. Keystone has been good to us but a lot of that has been due to the service manager and the GM at our Camping World - and I had to be a complete you know what to get them on the same page.

If you do get out and go camping I'll be at Blanco State Park, a short distance from Austin, Oct. 19-25.

Danny

[bobbecky]

You might call Keystone, insist on talking to the top guy that handles that division, don't back down. Tell them you don't care who fixes the problem, but if it isn't fixed in a timely manner, you will be contacting your state's attorney general and also will report this to the NHTSA, which should probably be reported anyway. Regardless of how this was delivered to the dealer, there is quite a checklist the dealer is supposed to complete for pre-delivery to customer, and I would think a visual inspection under the rig would be one of the things they should do. DO NOT TOW THIS ANYWHERE. If they want it moved, insist it be picked up with a low-boy trailer to transport it for repair if they can't get a mobile tech out. If you do stick a bolt in it, where do you place the bolt on the slot in the bracket? Is there other parts missing? Good luck.

[jshupe]

I know you want to go and use the RV. You are making a huge mistake - camp fees or not. I'm sure the life of you and your family, the destruction of the RV or TV is as little as a weeks camp fees. I'ts just money - lives are lives and the loss of the RV or TV would be far, far more than some camp fee. Plus, if you WERE to hurt someone else you could very easily be in jail for quite a long time (see note above about being negligent/knowingly driving defective equipment)....is the camp fee worth that?

I would not move it as-is. If anything, I would install a proper eye bolt where it is, and immediately take it to a dealership for further inspection and an alignment.

[gearhead]

Just me, but from this point forward I would be communicating with the dealer via email. If you decide to put a bolt in the spring eye I would email them with that and ask what bolt you should use. Get them to approve that and involved in the emails. Obviously keep all the emails. I would also get the service managers email address and cc him on all emails. You will now have at least a paper trial. Like others said...don't tow it like that.

I'll post up my refrigerator nightmare sometime....if it ever ends!

[jshupe]

I just sent off an email to the dealer. I'll follow up via phone in the morning. You are all probably right: I need to stop playing nice and put my foot down to get anything done.


I have been patient about this so far, but I need to see results on this rather than being given the runaround. I don't care who fixes it, but this will be repaired by the end of next week or I will be contacting my attorney, the state attorney general, and the NHTSA about the issue.

REDACTED's negligence put my wife and I, as well as our tow vehicle and other tenants of the road, at substantial risk. Every conversation that I have had with you infers that you expect me to move the trailer in the condition it is in to a dealer for repairs. Even if the dealership were only a couple miles away, it would require me to take on legal responsibility for any incidents during transport, which I refuse to do. If it needs to be moved to a dealership, you will need to provision the transport, or have a mobile tech sent out instead.

So far I have incurred loss of use, loss of funds used for reservations at a camp site, and most importantly was subjected to a substantial risk due to negligence (at best), or the sell of a vehicle with intent to cause bodily harm or death (at worst). Again, please see to it that the issue is corrected immediately or I will be pursuing legal action as previously indicated.


==

If you do stick a bolt in it, where do you place the bolt on the slot in the bracket? Is there other parts missing? Good luck.

I've been trying to source the proper parts, but it doesn't look like I can even get them. The bolt is an odd size and I'm not finding the washers. According to my measurements:


Grade 5 3.75" long (3/8" shaft?) 13/16" head eye bolt
11/16" outside 3/8" inside Locknut
3" octagonal fender washers on each side, with offset holes for positioning


See the photo below for a proper configuration...

http://i.imgur.com/szO5gAP.jpg

Edit: It looks like these are part of the Correct Track system: http://www.riecotitan.com/flyers/CorrectTrack_flyer.pdf

[sourdough]

jshupe

Conversations are meaningless when it comes down to brass tacks. When you are working on the paper trail make sure that you establish the facts, what they have said, what you are now dealing with and push them to make comments or commitments. Push them to acknowledge that they sent you on your way with a dangerous defect. You have to do it sort of on the stealth side but you can do it. Get everything you can in writing and then...sit down in front of the GM...maybe with the salesman. You will be the guy with the short straw if you don't play this in a canny, and aggressive way.

Your spring appears to be in front of the hanger/shackle. Do you think that compressing the spring to get the eye in the bracket will then straighten the axle or has something else happened.? Remember, with the force of that tire facing sideways on your trip home, or from the factory, it placed a tremendous amount of stress on the other components. In addition to the other things I've mentioned I would worry about damage to the spindle. I had one literally cut off the end of the axle once....not pretty, happy or anything else.

I'm hoping you find a way to get them on top of this...but it will all depend on you. Good luck.

[BobnLee]

JShupe welcome to the forum. Listen to these wise road warriors and dont move the trailer. Personally when speaking with the dealership I would definitely be taping the conversation (Its legal to do that in Canada) If all else fails tow it on a flat bed back to the dealership and present them with the bill. Take as many photos of the trailer axle as possible from every angle. You kind of know they will try every angle to get out of this one. A witness taking some pics as well wouldn't hurt. I would be hiring the first lawyer I could get my hands on to sic on these guys. This dealership already owes you large. You certainly have more patience than me. No more Mr Nice guy go get em.

[chuckster57]

Just my opinion, but I wouldn't have any communications that aren't written. IF IT WERE to end up in litigation, how do you prove the person on the other end of the phone is the person they say they are?

Any follow up IMO should be by USPS certified with proof of service. That way NO ONE can say, "I never got the email, must have been deleted by accident before I read it."
I understand you want this resolved quickly and properly, but I firmly believe in these situations being firm but patient can be your greatest asset.

KEYSTONE isn't the enemy yet as I see it, and I wouldn't go out of my way to make them one. Yeah you can hire an attorney and go after them, but how much money and time do you have? I bet Keystone could wait you out.

[Bushman512000]

Hi Sorry about Your troubles I had a spring problem 3 years back $750.00 from My pocket miles from home ...Bad news ...at the time was at the mercy of the repair Guy that was no mercy at all...You have a no choice fix,it has to be done at a dealer or spring shop the damage is done new axel is in need of replacement look at it its is bent the tires will be damaged also! a easy fix replace every thing with new and take no less a repair .You payed for a new unit get one and then have a eye for any bolts that come loose I think that was a people problem not doing there job not a bolt there to start with good luck Bushman

[SAABDOCTOR]

HI AND:wlcm:to the forum. I would be asking for two tires. to many miles way out of alignment and the side loads the tire has experianced!. ply seperation could happen and you should not have to worry about that as you travel. Has to make you wonder how good the pdi tech did his/her job at that dealership. that bolt did not fall out while it sat there! once that is fixed hope you enjoy camping and the great adventures to come."bouncey:

[jshupe]

Talked to Keystone this morning: They said to have a mobile repair service fix it, and they'll reimburse me.

Talked to the dealer this morning: They said they are looking for a mobile service to come run a bolt through the axle, and then they want it towed to a dealer for inspection and alignment.

Edit, after writing the above: The owner of the dealer called me personally and is working on the above himself. He's also overnighting the correct/OEM parts for that bolt (FWIW, Lippert 1x344901, 1x122103, 2x290731).

[JRTJH]

jshupe,

Great news, BUT!!!! Now that you've got their attention, don't let up. Continue to follow-up with him daily for status updates and any changes. Don't rely on him to "do it right" on his own, if that were the norm, you wouldn't be in this situation right now. He let you down, his dealership let you down and your salesman let you down.

Demand that they fix it correctly, which means complete inspection of the suspension, axles and tires. As many others have also stated, I would be very VERY cautious leaving the current tires on that axle. The other's "should" be OK, but those tires have been "misused" in their current application and really are suspect. I'd want new tires on that axle regardless of any excuses you'll get from the dealership.

Good luck with the repairs.

[sourdough]

jshupe

Sounds like things are turning a little for the better. As JRTJH said, don't let up. Don't take their first offers to help and feel thankful. You bought a brand new trailer; putting a damaged one back together piecemeal is not what you paid for.

Don't let them put a bolt thru the spring and hanger and call it done. I would suggest that you have incurred substantial tire damage whether you can see it or not. You also need to have them pull both wheels on that axle and inspect the lug bolts, hub, spindle etc. I would be looking over their shoulder given their willingness to send you off on the highway with a hanger bolt missing from a spring.

I'm still concerned about the pic that shows the left tire pulled to the inside and you don't mention the right. How does the axle shift forward on the left and not have an impact on the right with a straight axle in between? I would also think you would probably have some sort of underbody damage from the spring eye bouncing around from the road surface, bumps etc. When the tire goes up and down that spring eye is doing a dance under your trailer. You have a LOT to look at and beware of. Unfortunately I'm afraid it is going to take a lot of effort on your part to make sure you don't keep paying for this for a long time. You might even want to grab someone knowledgeable in suspensions and have them look it over with you....especially if you are unfamiliar with their workings. Don't let things ride, don't overlook, don't take no for an answer.....if they are willing to get into this, which they really have to, you need to make sure they get it all because there won't be a 2nd shot in all likelihood.

Good luck and let us know.

[jshupe]

They're going to have me take it to a (different) dealer once the bolt has been replaced for a full inspection under warranty and an alignment. I'll be sure to push my concerns there.

[sourdough]

jshupe

What kind of timeline are they giving you? Will you be able to make your next camping trip? Hopefully you were able to impress upon them the urgency of the repairs and they will accommodate you. Sounds like "they" (Keystone?) are sending you to a dealer other than the selling dealer. Hope that works out. Again, good luck.

[jshupe]

The parts will be here Monday or Tuesday. They want me to either put the bolt through the axle myself, or pay for a mobile service tech to do it, after which they will reimburse me the cost. I considered doing it myself, but will probably have a mobile service do it so there is a receipt and for it, and so that they can't come back and say that I did something wrong with the install (even though it is straight forward and I have the tools to perform it.) The mobile service company said they could come out on either Tuesday or Wednesday.

After that, they are going to have me take the RV to a dealer about 40 miles from here. That dealer is supposedly expecting this and should make it a priority. All of the closer dealers have one month+ wait times.

[So Cal CPA]

Have the mobile tech do it. Again liability is on you if it comes out during transport to dealer.

How about asking Keystone and dealer for a special liability endorsement for you while you tow a clearly defective trAiler back to them to get fixed. Make sure to go slow and obey all speed limit laws etc.

[Ram189]

I would insist that they reimburse you for whatever camping fees you are going to lose.

It was Keystone and the dealers problem that caused you to miss the trip.

I would impress upon the owner the fact that his staff gave you a dangerous and potentially life threatening trailer to tow home after you wanted it looked at. This is a huge liability issue for them at this point and a PR nightmare.

You have pocket aces in this poker game. Play them to the max and get everything you want and don't put you or your family in danger over camping fees.

[outwest]

Glad to hear it's in the process of being sorted. I agree with everyone else about not easing up on them in regards to towing nor during the repair process.

I don't know how many states have a similar law, but in Missouri, if you are involved in an accident where the officer finds that you are at fault, even if there are no other vehicles or property involved in the accident, it's a criminal offense and you have to go to court (or hire an attorney to deal with it for you). E.g. if you are driving too fast for conditions (such as going too fast for rain/snow/ice, even if under the speed limit), and run off the road, you can end up having to go to court.

Anyway, my point is that (aside from the liability issue) depending on the state, you could end up with criminal charges filed against you for knowingly towing a rig that isn't roadworthy.

[jshupe]

I know this is against several pieces of advice I received here, but I eventually just got fed up with them and dealt with it myself.

I put the bolt through the axle myself, torqued it to spec (85ft/lb), and checked the alignment using the chalk line method. I thoroughly looked over the tires and took it on a 50mi local drive and rechecked everything, including all suspension bolts, when I got back. Then I took it on a relatively uneventful 700mi trip. Rechecked everything several times, and when I arrived home. All great.

I had some sway issues, but they were due to my TV and WDH setup and not the issue described in this thread. I ended up adding Firestone Destination A/T LT275/65r18E tires, Air Lift 5000 Ultimate air bags, and a ProPride 3P hitch which all together result in an amazing towing experience.