Best electric heater options

[Richard6959]

The weather is turning cooler and we need an electric heater for our new unit. Any recommendations?

Considering a tower fan that oscillates that has a heat element.

[pjhansman]

May not be the best but it's certainly seen a lot of use this summer in Upper Michigan.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_81525-33454-DCH5090EL_0__?productId=3262237

Very quiet, oscillates, and the thermostat control works well. And not expensive.

[wbatto]

Hello,
We bought a Pelonis disc heater about 3 years ago. We really like it as it is small and easy to store. we could heat our 35' travel Trailor with it on a 40 deg night. They are more expensive than some of the other heaters but work great. click on the web site below.

http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/5-disc-powerhouse-heater/75144

[byrdr1]

We use a duraflame quartz wooden box heater(the Amish style heater)http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200632846_200632846?cm_mmc=Google-pla-_-Heaters%2C%20Stoves%20%2B%20Fireplaces-_-Electric%20Heaters-_-44864&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=44864&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=44864&gclid=CLap58fy_sACFbTm7AodkQIAmg in the living room area for heat when needed. We use the ceramic heater from lowes mentioned above in our bedroom if needed. We used it more last year than previous years. cold down to 26 a couple nights during Thanksgiving 2013 week at Myrtle Beach.
we don't use use the electric heaters anymore that's a whole other story.
Plus we will use the propane heater to back these up or the other way around?
Randy

[BirchyBoy]

Is there a reason you are all using electric instead of the furnace?

[Bob Landry]

Keep in mind that the outlets in the trailer are all 15A. The heaters are usually 1500W which draws 13A at 115VAC. What this means is that unless you have outlets that are on different circuit breakers, you will only be able to run one heater at maximum heat and depending on the supply voltage, you may not even be able o do that.

My solution to this was to install a 20A inlet on the trailer that is fed by the 20A plug at the CG pedestal with a separate cord. Just about every campground has this pedestal setup. That feeds a dedicated outlet installed on one end of the trailer. I installed another outlet and tied it into the circuit breaker for the air conditioner, which is also a 20A breaker. There is no problem doing this because you are not going to run the AC and the heater at the same time. This gives you two dedicated 20A outlets to run space heaters. Be sure to wi them using #12 romex, as the existing 15A wiring is only #14.

[byrdr1]

Is there a reason you are all using electric instead of the furnace?
I pay for my propane and I pay for the use of electric with the site fees. I would much rather use the electric that is included with my site charges. I do use the propane but more of a back up in extreme temps, like last Thanksgiving week. we had to use the propane more to keep the camper at a good temp of 65-70degrees. I usually set the thermostat at 60-62 and then use the electric to keep it warmer.
Just me,
We only camp up until Thanksgiving most years and that week in SC can be warm, cool or cold as last year.
randy

[pjhansman]

I installed another outlet and tied it into the circuit breaker for the air conditioner, which is also a 20A breaker. There is no problem doing this because you are not going to run the AC and the heater at the same time.

Just added that to my list of things to do (tx)

[Richard6959]

Keep in mind that the outlets in the trailer are all 15A. The heaters are usually 1500W which draws 13A at 115VAC. What this means is that unless you have outlets that are on different circuit breakers, you will only be able to run one heater at maximum heat and depending on the supply voltage, you may not even be able o do that.

My solution to this was to install a 20A inlet on the trailer that is fed by the 20A plug at the CG pedestal with a separate cord. Just about every campground has this pedestal setup. That feeds a dedicated outlet installed on one end of the trailer. I installed another outlet and tied it into the circuit breaker for the air conditioner, which is also a 20A breaker. There is no problem doing this because you are not going to run the AC and the heater at the same time. This gives you two dedicated 20A outlets to run space heaters. Be sure to wi them using #12 romex, as the existing 15A wiring is only #14.

Thanks Bob, That is definitely a solution I will look at. I guess I need to do some testing to see which outlets run to which breakers. I have heard others say they ran a separate cord from the pedestal to power heaters, but never anyone that installed an outlet to plug the cord into. I like this better then running it through a window or vent.

[GaryWT]

I am not a fan of portable electric heat for fire safety. Had a couple in the basement at the house and they melted. Back in the pop up days when we did not heat I used an oil filled radiator type which was good. Currently we just use propane.

[chuckster57]

I use the oil filled also. Since we take our cats, I don't want to smell any burnt fur.

[Bob Landry]

Thanks Bob, That is definitely a solution I will look at. I guess I need to do some testing to see which outlets run to which breakers. I have heard others say they ran a separate cord from the pedestal to power heaters, but never anyone that installed an outlet to plug the cord into. I like this better then running it through a window or vent.

I agree, running a cord through a window looks ghetto. It takes very little time or money to do it the correct way. I used a Marinco inlet shown in the photo, mounted on a piece of King Starboard, although a piece of cutting board from Walmart would work. I just happened to have it in my scrap box. I also went to a circuit breaker, which you really don't have to do since the wire is protected at the pedestal.

You are going to have a difficult time trying to use one of the existing outlets because they are set into the wall insulation. My galley cabinetry allowed me to put an outlet on each end and run the wiring inside the cabinet spaces.

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_145643_0_b9ea7306754756c4b14c53a1d01d241e.jpg (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/rlandry6/media/20A1_zps91f5596f.jpg.html)

[cjm]

another vote for the Pelonis. We spend each weekend in our trailer and drive up the mountain to ski all winter. We ocassionally wake up to a bit of snow, and the pelonis keeps us warm and cozy without using expensive propane.

the fan speeds up and slows down as required, and is very quiet.

[Steve S]

Get on of these, they're nice and quiet and way better then the oil filled ones :)

[hankpage]

Get on of these, they're nice and quiet and way better then the oil filled ones :)

Steve ..... :confused: How do you get it to stick to the ceiling like that??? And a tile ceiling no less. "bouncey:"

Just kidding ... I have had a few pics post upside down also. ;)

[chris7913]

check out http://www.rvcomfortsystems.com

[Steve S]

Steve ..... :confused: How do you get it to stick to the ceiling like that??? And a tile ceiling no less. "bouncey:"

Just kidding ... I have had a few pics post upside down also. ;)

Yeah it's weird, I checked the post twice and I can't make the pic look normal! lol! I'm just going to blame it on Keystone :p

[JRTJH]

check out http://www.rvcomfortsystems.com

A lot has been said about this concept for heating RV's. The problems stem from available power. In a 30 Amp RV, there's simply not enough power into the RV to support an "add on" electric furnace with a BTU output large enough to "realistically heat" an RV. The maximum power output for the 115 volt system is 5400 BTU. That's the same as almost any free standing electric heater sold in most department stores. The problem being the $495 cost for the "add on" electric furnace vs the $20 for the free standing electric heater with the same BTU output.

When you get into the 50 amp RV electrical system, there are options, but the problem again boils down to the cost vs the practicality. To get 30K BTU from an add on electric heater takes a tremendous amount of electricity. Quite often the RV's electrical system can't support the heater and the "normal demands for power" such as microwave, hot water heater, converter, hair dryer, refrigerator and lighting.

One positive aspect is that with the supplemental electric furnace, some of the heat is ducted into the basement to keep the holding tanks warm (Polar Package). That's something that isn't available with the $20 WalMart heater that sits on the stove or on the kitchen counter.

[mazeppabob]

We have a toy hauler with no heat ducts in the toy area. I drilled two holes in the floor out of the way, holes large enough to poke the male end of a pigtailed threeway splitter down. They are 12-18 inches long (home depot). Then run a 20 amp extension cord to the camp pedistal outlet to one pigtail.
Since most pedistals also have a 30 amp outlet I run a 30 amp rv cord with a 30A to 120v conversion on the end to the other pigtail. Now have two CKTs.
Do not plug more than one heater into each ckt since the pigtail splitters are only rated at 20A and will melt before the 30A breaker blows.

[SkiSmuggs]

Get on of these, they're nice and quiet and way better then the oil filled ones :)

What heater is that? I can't tell from the picture.

[Steve S]

I think it's made by Allen. I haven't turned the furnace on since I bought.
Having troubles loading pics from the tablet, I'll try from the office computer'

[Steve S]

Here's a few more pics.:)

[mazboy123]

get one of those electric oil heaters. quiet

[Desert185]

Yeah, oil heater seems to make the most sense. We have a little 10x10 "bunk house/sewing room" in Alaska that is heated by one of those $35 oil heaters. Warm and toasty with not a lot of electric used for the results.

[Richard6959]

check out http://www.rvcomfortsystems.com

Chris, do you have one of these CheapHeat systems? Just curious how well it works, how well it blows if its ducted etc.

[B&T]

For what it's worth -------Was in samsclub today.

They had three infrared quartz heaters in a special location. All three were in a wood enclosure and Powerheat was the brand. They appeared to all have thermostatic controls.

1. Heater with fireplace effect ~$175
2. Similar Heater without fireplace effect ~$134
3. Heater shaped like a mini tower ~$115

I did not take pictures as i thought sams would list them online but after looking on their site I don't see them.

If anyone is looking for a heater like these they may be in your local samsclub.

[billandjan]

May not be the best but it's certainly seen a lot of use this summer in Upper Michigan.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_81525-33454-DCH5090EL_0__?productId=3262237

Very quiet, oscillates, and the thermostat control works well. And not expensive.

I have one of those an love it.

Wal-Mart has a good selection of heaters now that fall is here, so check there too.

[mikell]

We have a fireplace but use oil filled heaters in the basement also in the living area when boondocking without water in the winter they keep a big coffee pot nice and warm for washing

[Andymon]

We installed an electric fireplace and it keeps our TT nice a comfy.

[Yeti]

I use a inferred heater in my living room a small space heater in the belly and another infrared heater under the trailer with the skirting.

[Tom]

I am not a fan of portable electric heat for fire safety. Had a couple in the basement at the house and they melted. Back in the pop up days when we did not heat I used an oil filled radiator type which was good. Currently we just use propane.

I like electric heaters when I'm available to keep an eye on them, but sure wouldn't use one while I was gone or sleeping.

[outwest]

I like electric heaters when I'm available to keep an eye on them, but sure wouldn't use one while I was gone or sleeping.

Ditto. Too much load on same circuit or malfunction of heater and either situation can quickly turn into a fire. Same goes for if electrician did a poor wiring job on circuit or the outlet is made with inferior materials.

[theeyres]

Ditto. Too much load on same circuit or malfunction of heater and either situation can quickly turn into a fire. Same goes for if electrician did a poor wiring job on circuit or the outlet is made with inferior materials.

My only response is name one actual case you personally know of where an electric heater in a newer trailer has caused a fire. I don't know of one. Do you? I think they are totally safe.

[Bob Landry]

My only response is name one actual case you personally know of where an electric heater in a newer trailer has caused a fire. I don't know of one. Do you? I think they are totally safe.

I agree. If the wire is properly sized and protected with the correct size circuit breaker, and you are not going to find any examples otherwise in a factory built trailer, the circuit breaker will trip long before the wire overheats to the point of causing a fire. as far as an outlet being made of "inferior" material", you can't buy any electrical parts or materials that are not UL approved, unless maybe you are in some third world country.
The only fires I have heard of was where a heater was placed too close to a combustible material and that's a case of stupidity, not an equipment or materials defect.

[JRTJH]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=38&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CFkQFjAHOB4&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsp.wa.gov%2Ffire%2Fdocs%2Fnf irs%2F2012firpt.pdf&ei=Tno6VPzbMIy1sQTi84HoAg&usg=AFQjCNEJX66lCk7Dia8XJmQmxreLLFTZ6A&bvm=bv.77161500,d.cWchttp://rvsteve.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=24&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEkQFjADOBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sundancecustomrv.com%2FElectr ic%2520Space%2520Heater%2520Danger.pdf&ei=Hno6VKWII9KIsQTK8oCwDA&usg=AFQjCNGA3Bdm3CkpCXoxrgH7Cb0mnAUfVA&bvm=bv.77161500,d.cWc

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Woman-burned-in-space-heater-trailer-fire-in-5288047.php

http://www.chattanoogan.com/2010/12/25/191130/Sale-Creek-Man-Injured-As-Travel.aspx

http://www.1041kqth.com/news/198610551.html

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2010/dec/25/man-injured-sale-creek-trailer-fire/

http://www.kxxv.com/story/24163592/space-heater-burns-travel-trailer-kills-three-dogs

http://vogeltalksrving.com/2013/01/more-space-heater-fires-destroy-pets-rvs/

http://blog.goodsamcamping.com/2014/03/space-heaters-deadly-as-cause-of-rv-fires/



The first two are from reputable RV related sources, first from an RV repair facility and second from SUNDANCE RV Company, a manufacturer of RV's. Even if you don't choose to read the rest (they are reports of fires caused by electric space heaters in travel trailers), read the first two. They explain what the read danger inside a travel trailer is. It's not always the space heater that causes the fire, sometimes (more often than not????) it's the demand on the wiring that isn't properly sized for a "long duration, high demand" load such as an electric space heater. The wiring, outlet and power distribution center in the trailer can be as likely to cause a fire as can the electric space heater. Don't be "lulled" into believing that the RV manufacturer builds RV's the to the same electrical standards as "stick built" houses.

Do what you want, but please be careful if you choose to use electric space heaters. It's not only the space heater (safety devices or not), but manufacturers (at least Sundance) have cautioned that their electrical systems aren't designed to support "full load use" for long durations of time.

[Desert185]

That's surprising. Regardless, I can't leave the trailer, or the house, with a heater plugged in and on. It just seems like a bad idea. If I'm gone for a short while, the place won't cold soak, and if I'm gone for a long while I don't need the heat. The furnace in the confined space will get the place warm enough in a hurry while the space/oil heater or fireplace gets up to heat for the long term occupation. I don't even like leaving a toaster plugged in.

If I'm in Winnipeg for the winter (not likely), I would leave the central heat on with the thermostat turned down low before I would leave a heater plugged in unattended. Thankfully, our room temperature tolerance window is such that stuffy heat isn't on the comfort menu.

[Festus2]

Many of today's larger RV's have a built-in fireplace which people use to keep the RV "warm and toasty" during cooler evenings. Are these fireplaces similar to or the same as a "space heater" and should be used with the same caution and warning? Do they have adjustable heat settings so they can be operated on a range of wattages or are they simply ON or OFF?

Is an oil-filled heater any safer than a "space" heater - one that uses an element or ceramic block to produce heat? It would seem that both types - oil and heating element - draw current from the RV's electrical system so what difference, if any, does it make?

[billandjan]

I pay for my propane and I pay for the use of electric with the site fees. I would much rather use the electric that is included with my site charges.

That's why I use electric heat too - the electricity is provided free of charge (site fee pays for it)

Wal-mart has all their heater available now that fall and winter weather are setting in.

[Desert185]

Many of today's larger RV's have a built-in fireplace which people use to keep the RV "warm and toasty" during cooler evenings. Are these fireplaces similar to or the same as a "space heater" and should be used with the same caution and warning? Do they have adjustable heat settings so they can be operated on a range of wattages or are they simply ON or OFF?

Is an oil-filled heater any safer than a "space" heater - one that uses an element or ceramic block to produce heat? It would seem that both types - oil and heating element - draw current from the RV's electrical system so what difference, if any, does it make?

Our Cougar fire place has different blower settings, but the few times we have used it so far I haven't noticed it cycling. I do know its going to save propane and be effective enough for our needs. In the morning, I just run the furnace for about 5 min to kill the chill (we don't have any heat on during the night), while giving the fireplace a chance to maintain comfort without the furnace.

I feel that an oil filled heater may be a bit safer than a non-oil space heater, but I still unplug it when not attended for any length of time. Wattage is wattage...

[JRTJH]

Festus2,

Yes, the fireplace in most RV's is simply an electric resistive element heater with an optical "firebox" mounted in the same cabinet. The Dimplex 26" Optiflame Electric FireplaceModel NBDF2608 is the most common one used in Keystone products.

This fireplace contains an optical flame unit with 3 60 watt candelabra base bulbs in the lower section and two 15 watt candelabra base bulbs in the upper section (total 210 watts) and a 1440 watt resistive element heater with a squirrel cage blower mounted above the optical firebox. This heater has two "ribbon heating elements" that glow red when operating. One glows on the "LOW" setting and both glow on the "HIGH" setting. The blower pushes the heat out of the "heater box" and out the two upper vent openings.

Usually this 1650 watt (do the math) heater is plugged into a "standard push crimp" RV outlet mounted on the wall "behind the fireplace where it's not easily accessible. There is a "warning" in the installation manual for the fireplace http://www.dyersonline.com/dimplex-26-optiflame-electric-fireplace.html that states: "⑥ The appliance must be positioned so that the plug is accessible."

If you go to the SUNDANCE link in my previous post: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=24&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEkQFjADOBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sundancecustomrv.com%2FElectr ic%2520Space%2520Heater%2520Danger.pdf&ei=Hno6VKWII9KIsQTK8oCwDA&usg=AFQjCNGA3Bdm3CkpCXoxrgH7Cb0mnAUfVA&bvm=bv.77161500,d.cWc

You'll see that the problem that prompted Sundance to issue the warning about using electric heaters in their RV's is that the 15 Amp breaker/14AWG romex is not well suited to carry a load of 1300 watts or more for an extended period of time without potentially overheating and causing an electrical fire within the wall. The problem is complicated by use of the "RV standard" push/crimp connector that is found on all RV outlet boxes/plugs. These "V-crimp" plugs connect to the wires by cutting the insulation and contacting the copper wire inside it. If there are multiple connections on the same "V-crimp" (a standard practice in stringing outlets in an RV) there is a distinct probability that the connection would loosen and that causes the overheating to begin.

As for an oil filled electric heater being "safer" for use, if it has an operating wattage of 1300 watts or greater, it poses the same risk of overheating the RV wiring that any other "long term use" device would pose. Fortunately, microwaves, hair dryers, etc aren't used on "high" setting for hours on end. That's the problem with the RV wiring that isn't "protected" by the heater's safety devices.

So, having an electric fireplace in an RV is a convenience, but it is just as likely to have a problem as any other electric heater could have. Operating it on the LOW (or #1) setting is recommended by Sundance in their warning located at the link provided.

I'm not trying to "scare anyone to not use electric heaters" (I use one in my Cougar), but rather to give information that it's not as safe as you might think, even if it's a new heater with all the latest safety devices built in. The RV itself is an inherent danger because of the "CHEAP" way that all manufacturers build them. Apparently Sundance has had problems and issued the warning to owners. Other manufacturers either haven't yet been sued or have the "ostrich syndrome" of ignoring issues with their "head in the sand".....

[Tom]

Good information here which should make anyone leery of using unmonitored space heaters, especially at the max heat setting and with 15 amp circuits. In the future I think I'll run mine only at the low setting.

Once question concerning the second link John kindly provided. It said not to use electric space heaters in a GFI protected circuit. I've never heard this before. Can any of you electrical experts explain why a normal circuit is OK but not a GFI.

[JRTJH]

Good information here which should make anyone leery of using unmonitored space heaters, especially at the max heat setting and with 15 amp circuits. In the future I think I'll run mine only at the low setting.

Once question concerning the second link John kindly provided. It said not to use electric space heaters in a GFI protected circuit. I've never heard this before. Can any of you electrical experts explain why a normal circuit is OK but not a GFI.

Sure, simple answer, relay contacts whether they are in a transfer switch, a transfer relay in an inverter assembly or in a GFI are the 'weakest link" in the electrical supply circuit. They "snap closed/snap open" to protect the circuit. In doing that, they arc and can build up carbon on the contacts. That carbon produces a "poor connection" and causes heat buildup. So, the "relay contacts" in the GFI are prone to overheating and Sundance recommends not using an outlet that is GFI protected.

Ironically, in home use, space heater manufacturers recommend using a GFI if there is water near the space heater.

Unfortunately, an owner who has little knowledge of electrical components can read the "literal interpretation" and follow it to the letter and cause more harm than good. Sometimes the manufacturers are worried about the "lesser of two evils" (water vs heat buildup in the GFI) and "err on the side of caution" rather than completely omit the statement about protecting the appliance from water intrusion. I suppose it's safer for them (not the user) to have the caution rather than open the potential for a suit if they omitted the statement about the GFI protection. If a GFI is in use, their legal staff can always blame the GFI manufacturer for the problem to "shift the blame" Sad part is, the owner who was in the bath tub or sitting in his RV when the wall burst into flames is still without his RV or tub......

[outwest]

I agree. If the wire is properly sized and protected with the correct size circuit breaker, and you are not going to find any examples otherwise in a factory built trailer, the circuit breaker will trip long before the wire overheats to the point of causing a fire. as far as an outlet being made of "inferior" material", you can't buy any electrical parts or materials that are not UL approved, unless maybe you are in some third world country.
The only fires I have heard of was where a heater was placed too close to a combustible material and that's a case of stupidity, not an equipment or materials defect.
In addition to what some other posters have already written - I'm friends with an electrician (in Wisc) that bought a roll of romex at Menard's and began wiring a house. After installing some runs, he went to hook into the breaker box and discovered that some of the wires he had just run from the spool were missing the ground wire. Upon further examination, the ground wire wasn't a continuous wire in the romex. Instead, the chinese manufacturer had merely put in segments of wire, cheating the vendor (in this case, Menard's) out of a huge amount of copper. If they're willing to do that, I'd bet good money that they'd be willing to skimp on the gauge of the hot wires.


I had a space heater that began melting an outlet in the house a couple of years ago. Either it was drawing more than the 1500 watts it was rated at or there was more load on the circuit than I was aware of. Either way, though, it was an important lesson.

[Tom]

Thanks for the explanation John. Since I only have 2 utility curcuits in my trailer and one of them is a GFI, that won't allow the use of but 1 space heater.

Having said that, though, I have in the past used the microwave plug to run a space heater since it has it's own dedicated circuit. Not sure if the plug in the current rig is easy to access or not.

Fortunately, I'm not a big cold weather camper anyway. Since the wife is a school teacher, most of our camping is in hot weather- really hot weather.

[rhagfo]

check out http://www.rvcomfortsystems.com

Chris, do you have one of these CheapHeat systems? Just curious how well it works, how well it blows if its ducted etc.

Don't know about Chris, but I have one installed and LOVE it!
They are add-on units to your existing propane furnace, once installed the furnace will work on either gas or electric.

I completed install myself with very solid in homeowner electrical experience. We then spent the month of January Hosting at the Oregon Coast. Temps ranged from very low 20's to a couple days of 50's, but mostly 20's to 30's. We have a 50 amp service and the unit set to the max of 5,000 watts (17,060 BTUs). Our 5er is what I consider a three season unit as the under belly is NOT sealed (yet), we do have tank heaters for the exposed tanks.

We had no power issue with the furnace running and using the microwave, HW on electric, and refer running on electric.
I also have the necessary wiring in place to switch over to 120V/30 amp application. I figure it would take about 10 to 15 minutes to make the switch.
We never had an issue keeping the 5er at our comfort temp of 68 degrees.
During the month the only propane we used for heating was what ever we used in the 2.5 hour drive from home to the park, as we now "pre-heat" the unit while traveling. Our total propane useage for the month was 4 gallons. This was for cooking, and fast HW recovery, DW used the oven often for cookies and roast.

The biggest issue I had was the location of our furnace, to have access to the heating element I needed fabricate a 3" extension to the duct work.

These two pictures show the furnace with the duct extension and Cheap Heat unit installed.

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_223799_0_4c7419e1fc341d6e0eea16a18e2b48b9.jpg

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_223799_1_870fa1232b6f741c84579a287d7153e3.jpg

This is the 3" extension I made took about an hour without the use of a sheet metal brake.

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_223799_2_4dfc3e20ecdf52335b5d7cbd17a03baa.jpg

This sketch shows the other improvement, in that I now have better airflow over the gas heat exchanger and when on gas the furnace puts out more heat.

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_223799_3_e65e48ba8bcb338564f87ad1120587e7.jpg