Half ton towing

[GunDoc]

I know this has been asked many, many times, but…

I am seriously considering the purchase of a 27RLSWE and am looking for reassurance that my TV will be able to handle it. My TV is a 2014 GMC Sierra Crew Cab 4x4, 5.3ltr, 3.42, with trailering package, All Terrain Plus package and Z71. I have the heavy duty XMSN and engine oil coolers along with Rancho shocks and bigger front sway bar. Truck is rated for 9600Lbs towing, 7K GVW with a max combined GVW of 15K. The 27RLSWE weighs in at 6300, dry, 610 tongue weight and is right at 30’ overall.

I have used the various calculators with 15% safety margin and it looks like I can add at least 500lbs to the TT before I approach the recommended number. With all of this plus the weight of four adults in the truck I still have around 2K before I hit the max combined 15K. I obviously plan on using a WD hitch with sway control.

Do you think this is a safe TT/TV combo?

Thanks!

[placergoldman]

I have almost the same set up..27rls but a 2013 4x4 set up the same as your 2014..Just got back from a trip from So cal up to Idaho..Had no problems at all..Pulled great,had no power issues or any issues at all...Good luck and go just have fun....

Tim

[GunDoc]

Tim,

Thanks for the input. I have towed a lot more weight with less truck in the past, but not something a large and am/was concerned about having a large “sail” behind my truck. Did you, or have you had any problems with sway?

Steve

[placergoldman]

The only sway I had was when coming back going through the high desert of Barstow and Victorville was the wind and big rigs going by..I have the WD hitch and sway controler but I don't think anything will keep the wind from pushing you around..It was my first time in high winds and it was very exciting...

Tim

[GunDoc]

I can understand the winds around Barstow and Victorville...Been to Ft Irwin (NTC) a number of times and it is often plenty windy!

Thanks again. Guess I'll go pick up my new TT next week and see how it does!

Steve

[Ken / Claudia]

I did go over a scale and checked the wt.s with the listed trailer. It was 6900lbs and tongue wt. was 900lbs. loaded for a overnight trip with fresh water,propane, 2 batteries. I do not know if yours will be lighter or heavier, just giving you some real numbers. Keystone listed the trailer dry wt. 5576 and capacity 1624 total of 7200 GVW. hitch 530 lbs

[GunDoc]

Thanks Ken/Claudia,

I know these TT weights do vary and I have to watch how I load. I don't think I can afford to travel with full water tank, so I will save some weight there (full up water would add close to 500lbs to mine). Again, I think the drive train is plenty to pull the weight (I pulled close to 8000K with a nearly identical truck) it's the wind resistance and sway that concerns me most.

[JRTJH]

Thanks Ken/Claudia,

I know these TT weights do vary and I have to watch how I load. I don't think I can afford to travel with full water tank, so I will save some weight there (full up water would add close to 500lbs to mine). Again, I think the drive train is plenty to pull the weight (I pulled close to 8000K with a nearly identical truck) it's the wind resistance and sway that concerns me most.

The problem really isn't the ability to pull the trailer. There's enough HP and torque. The issue you're going to run into is payload and GCW. You say that the truck's GVW is 7000 lbs and the GCW (truck and trailer) maximum is 15K with a maximum trailer weight of 9600 lbs.

If you do the math, your truck is going to be "at payload" with 4 adults onboard. That's 7000 lb. Now, subtract that from the "maximum GCW of 15000 and you'll see that you're nowhere near the 9600 "max trailer" capability. The EMPTY truck may be rated to tow 9600 lbs, but as you approach your truck's GVW, the maximum allowable trailer weight goes down. The TOTAL can't exceed 15000 lbs, and if the truck is at GVW, you can only tow a trailer weighing 8000 lbs.

The auto industry, the trailer industry and the sales force at both kinds of dealerships use the "maximum allowable" numbers independently to make sales, but when you add it all together, you get a much reduced "maximum" in the reality of towing.

Realistically, with "payload" in mind, you're looking at topping out much closer to a 4000 or 4500 lb empty weight trailer. The truck probably weighs about 5600lbs, GVW of 7000 leaves a payload of 1400 lbs. the "driver's weight of 150 lbs" is calculated in the payload allowance that you'll find on the door sticker, but the passengers aren't.

So, if you've got 3 adult passengers at 175 lbs each and you weigh 175, you've added 700 lbs to your "max payload".... Subtract the driver's allowance of 150 and your "payload has increased 550 lbs. That leaves 850 lbs of available payload (with nothing in the bed, no bed mat, no bed liner, no cap or tonneau cover, no added accessories, no tool box, no cooler in the truck, nothing but the passengers and the clothes they are wearing.

Now, take the advertised trailer "shipping weight" tongue weight of 610 lbs, add 60 lbs of propane, 50 lbs for one 12 volt battery, 100 lbs for the hitch assembly and your actual tongue weight for the EMPTY trailer is much closer to 820 lbs. That's within 30 pounds of maxing out your truck.

As I said at the beginning, You've got the HP and the torque to pull almost any trailer up to about 12 or 13000 lbs. but you simply don't have the "rated payload" to tackle a trailer with an "honest" tongue weight of 800-1000 lbs. The trailer you're looking at is in that category.

[gepaine]

I have no argument with the basic conclusions posted by JRTJH; however, I have seen calculations such as the following posted often, and I think they are not accurate:

"Now, take the advertised trailer "shipping weight" tongue weight of 610 lbs, add 60 lbs of propane, 50 lbs for one 12 volt battery, 100 lbs for the hitch assembly and your actual tongue weight for the EMPTY trailer is much closer to 820 lbs."

I contend that when you add weight to the trailer's tongue, the tongue weight is not increased pound-for-pound. I think roughly half of that additional weight is carried by the tires. So if you add, for example, 60 pounds of propane, then the tongue weight should increase by roughly 30 pounds.

Am I wrong?

Update: My statement that roughly half would be carried by the tires was incorrect. Since the weight is closer to the tongue than to the tires, more weight would be carried by the tongue. So maybe 80% on the tongue and 20% on the tires - just to use rough terms. Still, not all of the additional weight is on the tongue; however, JRTJH's simplification is certainly accurate enough for discussions such as these.

[SAD]

I have no argument with the basic conclusions posted by JRTJH; however, I have seen calculations such as the following posted often, and I think they are not accurate:

"Now, take the advertised trailer "shipping weight" tongue weight of 610 lbs, add 60 lbs of propane, 50 lbs for one 12 volt battery, 100 lbs for the hitch assembly and your actual tongue weight for the EMPTY trailer is much closer to 820 lbs."

I contend that when you add weight to the trailer's tongue, the tongue weight is not increased pound-for-pound. I think roughly half of that additional weight is carried by the tires. So if you add, for example, 60 pounds of propane, then the tongue weight should increase by roughly 30 pounds.

Am I wrong?

Neither of you is right or wrong. Only the scale is right. :)

[GunDoc]

JRTJH,
Okay, now I am really confused…

The trailer dry weighs 6271, I’ll add 60lbs for propane, 100lbs for two batteries, 60 for the hitch 83lbs for 10 Gals of water (I’ll fill up at my destination) and 400lbs for food, clothing, etc. That totals 6974. Recommended tongue weight is 9-15% of total, loaded trailer weight. 12% would be near 850 (rounded up).

My truck has a payload of 1580lbs (150 driver) I weigh 200, so that reduces my payload to 1530, if the tongue weight is 850lbs, that leaves 680 for everything else. I would subtract about 400 from that number (two additional PAX @ 145 each and the rest misc), which reduces my available payload to a little under 300. Truck would be at approximately 6700. Add the 6700 to 6974 and you get 13,700 (rounded up) that’s 1300lbs below MAX GCWR

Of course I don’t want to tow at the MAX payload that is why I used the calculator at “Changing Gears” website. I used a safety factor of 15% and arrived at 6800lbs loaded. Your empty weight figure of 4000-4500lbs would equate to somewhere in the neighborhood of a 35-40% safety factor, or 60-65% of the truck’s MAX payload and less than 50% of the truck’s rated MAX towing capacity.

I towed a load that was right at 7000lbs from Tennessee to Western Washington State (in the middle of summer) over a number of mountain ranges with 2011 Chevy 1500 CC 4x4, 5.3ltr and 3.08 gears. It was rated 3000lbs less across the board than my current truck (6700 and 12,000) and I didn’t have any problems at all. The difference was in that instance I was towing a car hauler with a much lower profile and about 8 feet shorter trailer than the TT I am looking at. The car on the hauler was LOADED…Front and back seats, trunk and floorboards. The bed of the truck had a very large Pelican case, also loaded. Inside were me, my wife and a 150lbs Mastiff.

I can see where sway could be a problem; I don’t see where I am going to exceed any of the max load ratings for my truck.

[JRTJH]

In your first post, you stated you have 4 adult passengers. Now there are two.

Your calculations are somewhat flawed in that you're adding propane, batteries and hitch (220 lbs) into the cargo weight, then using 12% of that to figure your additional tongue load... ALL of that weight (at least 90%) is all positioned on the tongue, so it's not "cargo" to be calculated at 12%.

You're very conservative in stating that you're adding 400 lbs for food, clothing, etc. Somewhere in there you've got to add blocks, chocks, hoses, cords, jack, spare tire, tools, adapters, and the host of other "camping accessories" such as lawn chairs, weenie roasting sticks, patio mat, jumper cables, and the host of other things that become necessary after you realize you need them on most camping trips.

As I said, and as SAD said, the only way you're going to be convinced how much the tongue weighs and how much the trailer weighs is to take it to a scale, put it on the platform and read the meter.

Your truck will easily pull (well without damage, pull) at least the 9600 lbs, quite likely much more than that with little or no mechanical damage. The issue is doing it and staying within all the numbers.

You're using the factory shipping weight for an empty trailer with no propane, no hitch, no sway bars, no battery and no cargo and "supposing 220 pounds of propane, batteries and hitch" and adding 400 pounds of cargo, then using 12% of that 620 lbs to calculate your hitch weight. There's significantly more weight than 12% of 620 lbs that's going to show up on your tongue jack when you hitch up to go camping. All of the propane weight, hitch weight, battery weight and sway bar weight is within 3' of the hitch ball. Nearly 100% of that weight is directly positioned to be hitch ball weight applied to the truck's receiver.

Ask anyone here, you'll find that almost every 30 foot lightweight trailer when equipped and loaded for camping has a tongue weight of 800-1000 lbs. Find someone who has the same trailer, ask them for their weights and go from there.

As I said in the opening sentence of my first post, "The problem really isn't the ability to pull the trailer. There's enough HP and torque. The issue you're going to run into is payload and GCW."

[GunDoc]

I think you misunderstood my calculations…12% refers to 12% of the TOTAL loaded trailer weight, including propane, batts, gear, etc. 850lbs is approximately 12% of 6900lbs. Even at 950lbs tongue weight, I would be 200+ under the GVW for the truck.

I did say four adults, but more realistically there would be two and a teenager. The spare tire and hoses are already figured into the trailer weight, as per Keystone’s factory rep. That said, I could add an additional 300lbs of cargo and still be 1000lbs under the max CGWR.

I notice Gpaine (responded earlier in this post) is towing a 24RKS (dry weight 5600) with a 2007 Cadillac Escalade, which depending on the model has an advertised max towing capacity of 7600-8000. That’s 700 lbs less dry trailer weight than the 27RLSWE, and 2000 to 1600lbs less towing capacity than my GMC. A delta of 900 to 1300lbs!

If my truck rated at 7000lbs GVW and 15000lbs CGWR can only tow a 4000-4500lbs dry weight trailer that Cadillac should max out somewhere near 3000lbs dry??

I have camped before (spent 41 years in the Army). I do realize there are “must haves” and “extras.” I also realize you must save weight where ever you can.

As for asking someone with the same trailer, Placergoldman, who first responded to this post has the same trailer AND truck, albeit a 2013 model and just completed a trip from SoCal to Idaho and back and said he had no problems with the combo, with the exception of some high winds between Barstow and Victorville. I understand the high winds…I’ve spent many hours on the roads between Barstow, Victorville and Vegas while training at Ft Irwin (NTC).

[JRTJH]

I certainly hope you enjoy your future rig, I urge you to weigh it once you've got it home and loaded for camping. Good luck with the purchase.

[Ken / Claudia]

GunDoc,
Sounds like you have your mind made up, thats OK. The weight numbers will be close to max on payload. I am sure you be be as safe as possible traveling with family. Get over a DOT scale then you can to see true weights. If the truck has problem towing safety ask more questions on here. There are some types of hitchs that help control sway better than others, different tires have more or less max. wt. rating. At some point afew dollars spend on your truck may make it tow better if needed. Or start over with a heavier truck. Now, get out there Go camping.

[GunDoc]

Thanks to all that responded to my questions. I am not 100% sure I do have my mind made up. I do know that I will be close to max GVW of the truck (within 300lbs), but I think I’ll be fine as far as the combined weight goes. I should be around 1500lbs under the combined.

I do have another question…when figuring TOTAL combined weight am I correct in assuming you add the total GVW of the truck (with tongue weight, PAX and gear) to the total loaded weight of the trailer minus the tongue weight since it’s factored (carried) into the truck weight? I understand the TOWED weight would include the tongue weight.

[STLCG]

Like most have said you need to weight it to know your real weights. But going by the numbers given you should be fine. Just remember when towing a TT the key to a stable drive is to carry as high of a % of total TT weight on the hitch as possible. Your dry TT weights gives you a 9.6% hitch weight (squirrely), so you will want to add as much forward weight as your truck will allow. My last trailer (26BHS) had about a 12% hitch weight and was a little squirrely. My new trailer (31SQB), which ways 1400lbs more and is 7 feet longer, tows much more stable with about a 14% hitch weight.

Moderators FYI
I realize all trailers are different!!!! When weighing the added weights of propane and batt to the hitch weight of my 26BHS I came up with 35% of total weight of the batt and propane added to hitch. No where near close to 90%.

Before you guys attack please go out and check the numbers for yourself!!

[Festus2]

[QUOTE=JRTJH;132684].

Your calculations are somewhat flawed in that you're adding propane, batteries and hitch (220 lbs) into the cargo weight, then using 12% of that to figure your additional tongue load... ALL of that weight (at least 90%) is all positioned on the tongue, so it's not "cargo" to be calculated at 12%.

QUOTE]

First, I don't think that JRTJH was saying that the propane, batteries and hitch account for 90% of the total tongue weight. However, you may have interpreted this differently to mean that these three items account for 90% of the total weight on the tongue.

Secondly, the "moderators" (plural) are not attacking anyone. In this thread, one of the five forum Moderators participated and offered his suggestion to take the unit to a weigh scale as well as the reasons behind that recommendation. No one is being "attacked". For your information, four of the Moderators, including myself, were not a part of this discussion so for you to state that a member is being "attacked" by "you guys" aka Moderators is just plain wrong.

So, yes please, follow your own advice and check the numbers.

[JRTJH]

Before you guys attack please go out and check the numbers for yourself!!

Really? I don't believe anyone was "attacked" However your comment could be considered to come really close.

I really don't feel a need to respond to you, but think that your post does deserve a comment. First of all, anything that one moderator posts is "that moderator's comment" We are all individuals, live in different time zones and seldom are online at the same time. There is no "you guys club" that meets, gathers data and decides who "we are going to attack" next. It simply doesn't work that way. I'm speaking for myself now, not as a representative of the "you guys moderator club" when I say that first off, we are all members of this forum. We spend a significant amount of time on line dealing with the forum, all the SPAM, the new members from Pakistan, China, Iraq, India, and numerous places. We collectively (and often individually) read every post, review every new member, look for issues and try to keep things flowing without creating any "new issues". I may not agree with everything that the other moderators post, they may not agree with me. We may not agree with you and you may not agree with us. In the end, that's a part of any forum that has an open dialogue where members share their opinions, views, experiences as well as seek answers to their questions.

Each member here has an opinion, but you must realize that we also are members and also have an opinion. It may not be the same as yours, and that's OK. You've expressed your opinion, and that's great. Whether anyone else feels the same or not, you've had your say. Now let's get back to Keystone RV's and RVing.

[fred1609]

For me, I'll take information from anywhere. The difference a lot of members are gonna have different opinions. This is how we learn. I love reading thru the threads especially when I recognize that the member posting knows a lot more about weights than I do. I'm grateful for the info provided in these threads and I haven't seen a lot of "getting personal" in the forum. And that because we have great moderators and members that are respectful. Enough said.

[GunDoc]

Wow!

First off I did not intend for this "discussion” to become so heated and I NEVER felt like ANYONE was attacking me!

I welcome everyone’s input and do respect differing opinions. The reason I posted was to get those opinions. I have years of mechanical experience ranging from hot rods to aircraft to BIG trucks (Oshkosh Kenworth and others). What I don’t have is much experience towing travel trailers. That’s why I am here.

I do appreciate everyone’s input and will continue to ask questions and hopefully at some point will be able to pass on some knowledge that I have, or may learn.

I have decided to pick up the TT and after checking it out, head straight to the scales so I know without a doubt what I have and what I need to do to stay safe.

[randygk]

I have a Hideout 23RBWE 5340 lbs shipping wt and approx. 660 tongue wt. Towed with a 2012 Ram 1500 Crew cab with shell. I weighed the truck full fuel no people at 5440 lbs. I then weighed the truck hooked to trailer (near empty)with wd hitch at 6100 lbs, with a GVW rating of 6800 that leaves 700 lbs for people and cargo.
My wife, myself, and large choc lab (over 100 lbs) leave 280 lbs for cargo.
The hemi pulled just fine, but I didn't want to be that close to the weight limit.
I now have a new Ram 2500 in the garage.
The scale is the only way to determine your capacities.

[bucketman]

I tow with a 2013 F150 Platinum,,,rated at 1093 payload. When I bought the truck I only looked at drivetrain and not payload, big mistake. Salesman knew that I was going to tow with this vehicle. 90% blame on me and 10% on him..I will know better on next vehicle. I tow a 5400 (empty weight) TT and 590 tongue weight. Just my wife and I. I know that I'm maxed out on payload probably a few hundred over. I'm not too concerned as I took it to the scales and my axle weights are well within the capacities and gross is ok also. The trailer tows excellent without any sway. In my former career we had what they called safe working loads with cables and slings. We also had breaking strength which was 5 time safe loads. We could work within the breaking strength if we were aware and careful. It is hard for me to believe the ratings that they put on these trucks is not for the most extreme conditions and if you you are aware of that and not put it in that condition that you would be okay. I would love to hear comments. How many of you are over the payload of your TV and are comfortable with it.

[austinp]

I tow with a 2012 screw Ecoboost Lariat and my payload max is a bit over 1400 lbs. When loaded with 80 lbs of batteries, 60 lbs of propane and a WD of 70 lbs I'm close to max with a dry hitch weight of 720 lbs. I load heavy stuff on the back of my camper and luckily it's only me, the DW + 2 Yorkis (6 lbs each). My truck tows great with 2 friction sway bars that are tightened pretty good. The issue I see by being overweight is the toll on the bearings and suspension, including spring bars and tires.

[SkyPiGG]

GunDoc, you're going to be fine. I have the same truck in a 2011, and tow about the same, and it's fine. Yeah, we're probably both over the specs, and we're not going to be nearly as comfortable as the folks who own the 2500's and 3500's, but it will be OK. I tow about 6 times a year, and I don't traverse any mountains to speak of. I have a nice WD hitch, and I take my time. The wind blows you a round a bit, but it's manageable.

I just got back from the Maryland shore and it towed beautifully. There was 25MPH gusts through Delaware, and 30 feet of trailer is a gigantic sail. It pulled me a round a bit, but you get used to it after awhile. I never went over 60 MPH, and I always leave enough braking distance so that if I get pushed by a big gust, I can power through it without fear of hitting the car in front of me.

It would be nice to have a big 3/4-ton, and maybe I'll own one in the future, but I love my half-ton right now. It rides way better than the big trucks, and the mileage is no-contest. I may go out of spec when I tow, but I monitor my tire-wear, and every time I go in for an oil-change, I have my mechanic check the hitch-welds.

So go out and get that trailer, and start enjoying it. Don't get so caught up in the numbers. You know where you stand!

By the way.. thanks for your service!

[GunDoc]

Thanks SkyPig,
It looks like my Cougar is about 500lbs (dry) lighter than what you are pulling and about 4 feet shorter. I will be doing some mountains, but know I’ll probably have to stay in 4th (or lower) and take it slow. I am going to use an Equal-i-zer 4 point WD hitch with sway control, so hopefully that will help some with managing the sail.

I guess it comes down to risk mitigation. I’ll pack light, plan the route and allow for extra time to get to where I am going. Our first trip will be about 90 minutes from here with a mix of divided hi-way and two lane (WA16 and US101) and is relatively flat. Once we figure out how the rig handles and what kind of power we have, we will slowly increase our trips in both duration and difficulty.

Thanks to all that responded…I’ll post updates once we hit the road!

[buzzcop63]

My Trailer is the same as Ken / Claudia with the difference being he is towing with a Ford F350 and I am towing with a 1/2 Ton 4.6V8 Tundra, two wheel drive. All the numbers work for this combination but the true test is the weight scale and driving. This is my 3rd season with this set up and it has proven to be very comfortable as well as economical. Truck and Trailer have been back and forth over the mountains to the coast from the Willamette valley.

A heavier truck with higher torque rating would make the tow even more comfortable but also increase the cost. When fully loaded with trailer attached I have 420Lb still available in truck bed, if I were to add two more large adults and their gear my truck would be overloaded, your truck GVWR is 7,000 which is only 300Lb over mine plus as JRTJH has stated with added hitch weight that might put you over the GVWR for your truck.

I have found when out camping that their are plenty of trailer combinations that the driver will say that they have had no problems and have traveled all over the country even though the numbers would say that their combination is over the rated loads for the tow vehicle. Check at the weight scale and on the road to see what you conclude but keep in mind JRTJH information, how close do you want to be to the edge of safe towing?


5,560 Weight of Tundra, full tank of gas and myself and wife.
3,220 Front Axel
2,340 Rear Axel

6,280 Weight of Tundra, trailer attached, full fuel and standard load
3,100 Front Axel
3,180 Rear Axel

5,500 Weight of trailer while attached, both Axels on scale, tanks empty except 5 gal fresh water, dbl battery, full LP tanks, ready to travel.

11,780 Weight of Truck and Trailer, Max combined weight 14,000.

720 Weight increase of Tundra with WTH, 11.6%

Tundra Tow Rating is 8,200Lb
Trailer Max Weight 7,200Lb
Max Truck Weight 6,700Lb
Trailer Shipping Weight 5,576Lb
Carrying Capacity 1,624Lb
Hitch 530Lb

[GunDoc]

Buzzcop63,

I hear you…
I made a pretty big mistake when first figuring my numbers…I thought my truck’s GVWR was 7000, when it is actually 7200 (http://www.gmc.com/tools/2014-btl-vehicle-pages/2014-sierra-1500-locate-a-vehicle.extapp.html?tp_gmna-btl=%2FlocateNewVehicle%2FShowDetails%3FdealerSele cted%3Dfalse%26selectedVehicle%3D3GTU2VEC7EG389752 %26x-zipcode%3D98335&dealerSelected=false) Curb weight is 5420.

When I run the numbers with what I “expect” to see with the TT on the truck, I come up very close to what you have as far as “cushion” goes. I have 1780 available payload on the truck, the TT has an advertised dry tongue weight of 610 (slides are pretty far back), TT shipping weight (as stated on the door) is 6220. I plan on using the TT for weekend getaways, so I will be loading light. I don’t expect to put more than a couple of hundred pounds per person in the TT (3PAX=600lbs), plus the weight of propane, hitch and batteries (about 220 total). Add those weights to the shipping weight and you get 7040lbs – I’ll call it 7100lbs.

Back to the TV GVWR: 7200-5420=1780lbs – two adults (in addition to driver) @ 145 each is 290 – leaves 1490 for hitch. 7100 x 12% = 852, 1490 – 852 = 638. I weigh 200, so I need to subtract another 50lbs from the 638 since the base weight only allows for 150lbs for the driver. That leaves me with 588 cushion compared to your 420. That is a difference of 168 pounds between the two trucks.

If these numbers are close the truck should weigh in at about 6600 with PAX and the TT at 7100. Together right around 13700. My gross combined is 15000, leaving 1300lbs cushion.

Of course all these numbers are “best guess,” but are based on mostly factual information. The only real SWAG is the tongue weight.

My numbers are:
Sierra Tow Rating: 9600
Sierra Max Combined: 15000
Max Truck Weight: 7200
Trailer Shipping Weight: 6220
Carrying Capacity: 1705
Max Trailer Weight: 8000
Hitch: 610 (dry)

I have to believe the engineers (AND lawyers) at GM error on the side of caution when publishing gross cargo, vehicle, towing and other weights.

[buzzcop63]

GunDoc:
The key to your numbers since I think you are going to be within bounds on axel weights as well as all others numbers which leaves only the truck GVWR that is of concern.

Truck GVWR of 7,200-5,420 Curb Weight = 1,780 Lb less WDH of 852 Lb which is 12% of 7,100 estimated trailer weight, now you have 928 Lb to play with, deduct your weight at 200 Lb less 150 allowance or 50 Lb plus two other people at 290 Lb, that leaves 588 Lb. From the 588 Lb you still must subtract gas, which at 26 gal at 6.073 Lb per gal would be another 158 Lb. Your margin is now 588 Lb less 158 Lb or 430 Lb still free, which could be used for leveling blocks, tools, and other items.

I think you are going to be close on the trucks GVWR but better to have the truck heavy then the trailer due to the tires that our current trailers ride on. The 1/2 ton truck is so comfortable to drive as a day to day vehicle and the cost of the 3/4 and 1 ton vehicles is considerable more expensive. So you must watch what you load and for the sake of the tires on the trailer keep the speed to 55-60MPH and enjoy your camping experience.

Also, very hearty thanks for your service and thanks to all those who have taken the time to try and give you our best advice.

"Curb Weight: The weight of the vehicle when it is completely empty of passengers, fuel and cargo."

[GunDoc]

Thanks Buzzcop3,

I’ll watch how I load both the TV and TT, keep the speed down around 55-60 max and let this new, very smart truck do its thing to help with grade braking, stabilization and Tow/Haul shift points.

Again, I plan on starting out by going on short trips, both in distance and duration to see how this combo works. I’ll pay attention to what the rig is telling me and make adjustments as needed. As I said before, it’s all about planning and risk management. I guess all those years in the Army and now as an Army government employee has done its job of beating planning and safety into my head!!

[logspec1]

Highly recommend you take your truck, just as you drive it everyday, and weigh it at a certified scale. Get out and just weigh the truck with a full tank of gas. I think you will find you are a lot closer to the TV GVW than you think. Now that you have that number add the people, tongue weight and stuff that you would normally take. I agree, the HP and towing capacity are there, the question is the TV GVW.

Example, my GVW for my F150 is 7100, when I weighed it just as I drive it everyday with a full tank of gas it came in at 5880. Not a lot of room to play with after you add 3 people and 750 tongue weight.

[Ken / Claudia]

I need to mention my error in stating trailer wt. After reading Buzzs wt.s I realized in post #6 my trailer weight is 6900, it is not, it was checked at 5700 lbs with a tongue wt of 900lbs = 6600 lbs. I passed math class but, that was along time ago.

[GunDoc]

Weighed the truck today with a tank of gas and me in it. It came in at 5760 leaving 1440 for tongue weight (850) and my other 2 PAXs (290). I should have around 300lbs before hitting GVW.

[JRTJH]

One significant consideration that many people fail to remember is that the "recommended tongue weight" is between 10 and 15 percent of the trailer weight. That doesn't mean that the "new owner' gets to "choose" what that percentage will be, it means that "usually" the trailer will tow best somewhere between those percentages. Some rigs will tow better at 10% and some will simply sway and be "white knuckle producers" up to the 15% figure and never tow well without significant investment in hitch/sway control.

Why the differences? vehicle weight, wheelbase, distance from rear axle to hitch ball, distance from hitch ball to trailer axles, trailer weight, trailer height, hitch height, the list goes on and on......

Every tow vehicle/trailer combination is unique in how it tows and can't really be compared to "a friend had" for good examples or for valid expectations on how your specific truck/trailer combination will handle on the road.

The reason for figuring the maximum weight you'll be towing at the trailer GVW and using 15% of that figure for your tongue weight is because you simply won't know how your combination will tow until you get it loaded and on the road. If you "pick 12%" as your "known value and calculate "right to the pound" on what your tongue weight will be, then find, after you've purchased your rig that you really need 14 or 15 percent or even more weight on the tongue for "your rig" to be steady, then you're going to be "overloaded" not by design, but you trying to "cut it too close" before you even make a down payment. Plan for the "worst case" and you'll be safe in almost every trailer purchase, if you "fudge to make the numbers work" by using "half the allowance" and planning to "only load a little" and then realize that you need more to prevent sway or "have to tow with full water tank to prevent sway" then you're "STUCK" If you calculate your trailer GVW and use 15% of that as the tongue weight, add your hitch, passengers, etc and are below the GVW and GCWR, then you know you'll be "golden" with that trailer even if you have "unique circumstances" with your rig's handling characteristics. Don't cut yourself short by using "best guess" values, use the values known to fit "almost every rig" and you'll be safe.

Don't get "STUCK"...plan for the "worst case" and you'll be fine, otherwise, you're just "hoping it works" with your "best guess numbers." That has proven to be a very expensive "hope" for a number of novice RV'ers, who find after they buy their "dream trailer" that their truck simply isn't up to the task. It's even been a learning experience for some seasoned veteran RV'ers who want to pull more with less.....

[RaptyJon]

It comes down to comfort level and stability for me. I literally had zero towing experience when I bought my trailer and I felt it was too big of a trailer for the truck I had (F150 Ecoboost). For me, it's getting comfortable with the "normal" feelings of towing a trailer - when you have zero experience you don't know what's normal and when something's wrong so there was a lot of nerves and white knuckling going on for a while. Most trucks have built in sway control where if sway becomes and issue it'll engine brake for you to slow you back down...as a result, I learned, just keep it slow. You're towing a trailer so it's better to be safe than sorry...not just for you and your passengers, but everyone else on the road. When I took my trailer on our first trip, it was on the factory tires...big mistake, they were standard tires and super squirrly - bought E rated tires after that trip. After that I took it across I-80 through wonderful windy Wyoming and the sway/wind was pretty scary at times. Learned how it feels when a bus/semi passed and how it tries to suck you in. There's lots of road to the right of the line - use it. When you see a truck looking to pass, just slightly move over and give yourself more room and you won't feel those big semi's blow by you - another factor is your speed, the faster you're going, the more you're going to feel sucked into those semis passing you because they're going fast too. 60 is about my comfort zone so far but I still have a lot of miles of experience to get under my belt till I'm totally comfortable towing, and that's after upgrading to a bigger truck (F250). Overall I just felt the trailer was too big for the truck I had and it didn't provide the stability I wanted to feel it was safe to tow the trailer (12 foot tall toy hauler - yes, sometimes it does feel like a sail).

Good luck.

[b.d.m]

Towing in the military, or for government is really simple.

IF the trailer you are towing has the ability to carry 10,000lbs you must tow it with a truck capable of towing 15% more. dont care of the trailer is empty...

[sourdough]

Some thoughts for the OP.

I bought a 2014 Cougar High Country 319RLS. Dry weight 8025lbs. Tongue - 850 lbs. You need to check the scales and your ownership materials. Mine said my tongue weight was 900 lbs including full propane tanks - it came in lighter. Total trailer weight, indicated on the sticker, included 1/2 tank of fresh water as noted in the owner's manual.

The trailer literally maxed out my payload and I was close on GVW and GCVW. I towed the RV with a 2012 Ram 1500 with 5.7 hemi, 3.55 and AirLift 1000 airbags. Went from TX to FL (3000 miles round trip) and didn't have an issue...not one. Sway can be an issue but with a good WD/equalizing hitch (Equalizer) it is minimal. Yes, you do feel some push from a semi - at times, but not usually. Winds of 30-40 mph in flat country DO give you some push as well, but not white knuckle. The quick gusts that hit from one side then whip back WILL give you white knuckles. Every day, when I started out, it took me about 45 minutes to get used to the way the trailer pulled. After that it was fine; and I drove 65 mph all the time on the freeways.

After reading the posts I received when I contemplated this trip I talked to many folks. The posts telling you that there is no sway etc. with a trailer whatsoever are pulling a 25' 5th wheel with an F450 dually. When I said I made the trip fine with the TT and TV it was inferred that I was inexperienced and had nothing to reference to. Every person has his idea of what is perfect and/or acceptable. Your setup is going to be fine if YOU are fine with it and comfortable. Your Rv ratings will be fine. The limiting factor is the tires so check them (truck/trailer). When I visited with a Keystone engineer about mine he told me that the numbers put on the sticker for loads is determined by what tire they pick; then that number is put on the RV sticker. He said the axles will usually handle much more. If you have the 1/2 ton you may have P rated tires. That can cause sway.

Bottom line is this. I pulled my trailer at almost max loading across half the country. I didn't have issues other than winds which caused some sway, which was minimal. Trailer brakes, controller worked fine. After reading some of the posts here, talking to my son who deals in cars/trucks and putting in some worrying time, I bought a 2014 Ram 2500. Haven't pulled the trailer yet because it's in the shop. I could not get the thought out of my head of having an accident due to some oversight on my part and hurting someone, or especially my beautiful wife of 47 years. I'm sure I would have been fine for the next 10 years but I just couldn't get it out of my head....I'm a worrier and I try to dot all the I's and cross all the T's. I just couldn't reconcile that I had done that with my prior setup.

[GunDoc]

I took the TT out for the first time this weekend. I stayed fairly close to home (about 65 miles. one-way), but encountered most driving conditions. These included 4 lane divided highway, 2 lane highway (US101), flats, long bridges and some pretty good grades, both up and down. The TV/TT combo performed great. No sway, even with semis passing (traffic was heavy in some areas) or moderate cross winds. I had plenty of power to pull the long grades and averaged right at 10MPG for the trip. At no time did it feel like I wasn’t in complete control of both truck and trailer.

We loaded pretty light: 2/3 tank of fresh water (about 40 gals), a couple of pots and pans, dishes, clothing for three days, food for 2 days, snacks, tools, jack and assorted leveling aids (6 ea2x6 pieces, Lynx leveler kit and chocks). All total we had about 1000lbs over TT dry weight plus two PAX. The Equal-I-Zer 4 worked great and kept the truck at almost the same attitude as it is empty, albeit a little lower than normal, both front and back.

I feel comfortable pulling this trailer with my truck. I know I probably never load the trailer to its max weight and will have to watch what I put in the truck to stay within GVW for the TV. I also know it would be easier to just “load it up” if I had a ¾ ton or larger, but after driving this combo and feeling how it reacted to the changing conditions on the roadway, know that is safe to do with my current setup as long as I watch how and what I load.

[logspec1]

Glad to hear everything went well for you. Nothing like having that "warm fuzzy" about your combo., makes the trips a lot more enjoyable.

[audio1der]

Just returned from a great, if quick trip.
I changed our shank to get the trailer level 9it was an inch and a half nose up), Replaced our Airlift 1000's due to a leak. Filled the fresh tank before leaving.
I don't know if it's one thing or a combination but even with some wind, I didn't have a white knuckle moment. Being passed by semi's, wind, no problem "bouncey:
On another note, my DIY jack stabilizers worked amazingly; will start a thread in the DIY section with pics.

[Brent1974]

One significant consideration that many people fail to remember is that the "recommended tongue weight" is between 10 and 15 percent of the trailer weight. That doesn't mean that the "new owner' gets to "choose" what that percentage will be, it means that "usually" the trailer will tow best somewhere between those percentages. Some rigs will tow better at 10% and some will simply sway and be "white knuckle producers" up to the 15% figure and never tow well without significant investment in hitch/sway control.

Why the differences? vehicle weight, wheelbase, distance from rear axle to hitch ball, distance from hitch ball to trailer axles, trailer weight, trailer height, hitch height, the list goes on and on......

Every tow vehicle/trailer combination is unique in how it tows and can't really be compared to "a friend had" for good examples or for valid expectations on how your specific truck/trailer combination will handle on the road.

The reason for figuring the maximum weight you'll be towing at the trailer GVW and using 15% of that figure for your tongue weight is because you simply won't know how your combination will tow until you get it loaded and on the road. If you "pick 12%" as your "known value and calculate "right to the pound" on what your tongue weight will be, then find, after you've purchased your rig that you really need 14 or 15 percent or even more weight on the tongue for "your rig" to be steady, then you're going to be "overloaded" not by design, but you trying to "cut it too close" before you even make a down payment. Plan for the "worst case" and you'll be safe in almost every trailer purchase, if you "fudge to make the numbers work" by using "half the allowance" and planning to "only load a little" and then realize that you need more to prevent sway or "have to tow with full water tank to prevent sway" then you're "STUCK" If you calculate your trailer GVW and use 15% of that as the tongue weight, add your hitch, passengers, etc and are below the GVW and GCWR, then you know you'll be "golden" with that trailer even if you have "unique circumstances" with your rig's handling characteristics. Don't cut yourself short by using "best guess" values, use the values known to fit "almost every rig" and you'll be safe.

Don't get "STUCK"...plan for the "worst case" and you'll be fine, otherwise, you're just "hoping it works" with your "best guess numbers." That has proven to be a very expensive "hope" for a number of novice RV'ers, who find after they buy their "dream trailer" that their truck simply isn't up to the task. It's even been a learning experience for some seasoned veteran RV'ers who want to pull more with less.....

John,

My Jeep has a towing capacity of 7,200lbs and a tongue weight of 720. If I use a maximum of 15% I can only tow a trailer with a GVW of 4,800. That would probably be a trailer with a dry weight of maybe 3,300lbs? Am I figuring that correctly? That's not much of a trailer, I think I might rather hope.

[paoutlaw]

OK so with all this said. here is my 2cents. if you think that you are not able to tow it full of good ole clean water because your tow vehicle cant handle your camper with a full tank. Your tow vehicle is to small. which means smaller trailer or bigger truck.
you know that some day you will tow it full of water.
don't blow up at this. this is just what I got in the first couple pages of this.
be safe and take it easy.

[JRTJH]

John,

My Jeep has a towing capacity of 7,200lbs and a tongue weight of 720. If I use a maximum of 15% I can only tow a trailer with a GVW of 4,800. That would probably be a trailer with a dry weight of maybe 3,300lbs? Am I figuring that correctly? That's not much of a trailer, I think I might rather hope.

Brent,

Yes, that's sort of where it lays. But remember that the max trailer weight, tow vehicle GVW and tow vehicle payload are also governed by the GCWR. That's the combined weight of the tow vehicle and the trailer.

Assume, for example that your tow vehicle weighs 5000 pounds, has a payload of 1500 pounds and a max trailer rating of 7200 pounds. With a class 4 receiver rated at 500 pounds max tongue weight and 1000 pounds max tongue weight with WD hitch.
Lets assume the GCWR is rated at 12500. With your EMPTY TV, you can pull a trailer weighing up to 7500 pounds, but as you add cargo and passengers to your TV, the size of your trailer goes down. Assume that you had 4 adults, each weighing 175 pounds (700) and a 100 pound cargo load (total 800 pounds), now your TV weighs 5800 pounds, so your maximum trailer weight would be limited not only by the maximum tongue weight (1500 - 800 = 700) but also by the GCWR (12500 - 5800 = 6700). So, even though your tow vehicle is "rated" to tow 7200, and when empty, it can do so, once you start "adding stuff" to the mix, whether it's passengers, hitch weight, cargo in the truck or trailer, or even water in the tanks, all of those calculations need to be considered.

Realistically, if (that's a BIG word) you can find a trailer that tows well with a hitch weight of 10% when coupled to your tow vehicle, then you can "maximize" your trailer weight as long as you don't exceed the other restrictions. But, what I was trying to illustrate with my post is that sometimes, a trailer simply won't tow well (and be stabile) at 10%. Some rigs simply won't tow well until you approach 15% and some even go a bit beyond that. Honestly, none of us have any idea how a specific trailer will handle behind a specific truck until we put it there and tow the rig. Sometimes they handle well, sometimes "tweaking" the weight bars helps, sometimes, nothing helps and the owner has to resort to either a Hensley or ProPride hitch to resolve the control issues. Most often, when having to go to that type of hitch, it's because there's just not enough "room" to adjust the hitch weight and hitch installation to get to the point where it will tow well.

So, what I was saying is essentially, if you calculate your "minimum tongue weight" so you can tow a "maximum trailer weight" with a "limited tow vehicle rating" and push the numbers "right to the edge" you'll likely be gambling that the rig "might" or "might not" be able to tow comfortably out on the highway once you get it loaded, get all your cargo/passengers in the vehicle and hit the highway.

Calculating "right to the edge" to justify a bigger, prettier, roomier trailer while "compromising" on a smaller than desired" "make do" tow vehicle is often a road to losing money when you find you have to buy a bigger truck or trade that trailer for a smaller one.....

Do your homework, calculate in some "margin for safety" and you should be OK, just don't "push the limit" and think, "well another 200 pounds won't make that much difference".... Often times, it not only makes a difference, it could spell disaster....

ADDED: Additionally, don't forget to consider that Jeep vehicles are not "frame built" trucks, but rather are a "uni-body" construction. That makes for less strength and more flexibility in the hitch mount platform that can lead to reliability and structural issues if overloaded or pushed to the limit. Wheelbase length also is a consideration when considering longer trailers and SUV's as tow vehicles. Sometimes a short wheelbase vehicle simply won't tow with stability no matter what hitch configuration is selected. Even a Hensley or a ProPride which "WILL" eliminate the sway, won't handle crosswinds and passing trucks if the tow vehicle weight is significantly less than the trailer weight/side surface area. Any trailer is effectively a sail behind the tow vehicle when you encounter crosswinds. With a conventional hitch, it may not be controllable, with a Hensley it may "stay behind the Jeep without sway", but depending on the rig's weight and side surface area, you may find yourself in the "next lane" unexpectedly with no way to counter the movement. That results in a true "white knuckle/brown pants" moment. If you look through some of the encounters documented on this forum, you'll find that some members have encountered those "unexpected moments" and have since "solved the issue" by purchasing a heavier/bigger tow vehicle and have had no control issues since that purchase.

Good Luck,

[Brent1974]

Brent,

Yes, that's sort of where it lays. But remember that the max trailer weight, tow vehicle GVW and tow vehicle payload are also governed by the GCWR. That's the combined weight of the tow vehicle and the trailer.

Assume, for example that your tow vehicle weighs 5000 pounds, has a payload of 1500 pounds and a max trailer rating of 7200 pounds. With a class 4 receiver rated at 500 pounds max tongue weight and 1000 pounds max tongue weight with WD hitch.
Lets assume the GCWR is rated at 12500. With your EMPTY TV, you can pull a trailer weighing up to 7500 pounds, but as you add cargo and passengers to your TV, the size of your trailer goes down. Assume that you had 4 adults, each weighing 175 pounds (700) and a 100 pound cargo load (total 800 pounds), now your TV weighs 5800 pounds, so your maximum trailer weight would be limited not only by the maximum tongue weight (1500 - 800 = 700) but also by the GCWR (12500 - 5800 = 6700). So, even though your tow vehicle is "rated" to tow 7200, and when empty, it can do so, once you start "adding stuff" to the mix, whether it's passengers, hitch weight, cargo in the truck or trailer, or even water in the tanks, all of those calculations need to be considered.

Realistically, if (that's a BIG word) you can find a trailer that tows well with a hitch weight of 10% when coupled to your tow vehicle, then you can "maximize" your trailer weight as long as you don't exceed the other restrictions. But, what I was trying to illustrate with my post is that sometimes, a trailer simply won't tow well (and be stabile) at 10%. Some rigs simply won't tow well until you approach 15% and some even go a bit beyond that. Honestly, none of us have any idea how a specific trailer will handle behind a specific truck until we put it there and tow the rig. Sometimes they handle well, sometimes "tweaking" the weight bars helps, sometimes, nothing helps and the owner has to resort to either a Hensley or ProPride hitch to resolve the control issues. Most often, when having to go to that type of hitch, it's because there's just not enough "room" to adjust the hitch weight and hitch installation to get to the point where it will tow well.

So, what I was saying is essentially, if you calculate your "minimum tongue weight" so you can tow a "maximum trailer weight" with a "limited tow vehicle rating" and push the numbers "right to the edge" you'll likely be gambling that the rig "might" or "might not" be able to tow comfortably out on the highway once you get it loaded, get all your cargo/passengers in the vehicle and hit the highway.

Calculating "right to the edge" to justify a bigger, prettier, roomier trailer while "compromising" on a smaller than desired" "make do" tow vehicle is often a road to losing money when you find you have to buy a bigger truck or trade that trailer for a smaller one.....

Do your homework, calculate in some "margin for safety" and you should be OK, just don't "push the limit" and think, "well another 200 pounds won't make that much difference".... Often times, it not only makes a difference, it could spell disaster....

ADDED: Additionally, don't forget to consider that Jeep vehicles are not "frame built" trucks, but rather are a "uni-body" construction. That makes for less strength and more flexibility in the hitch mount platform that can lead to reliability and structural issues if overloaded or pushed to the limit. Wheelbase length also is a consideration when considering longer trailers and SUV's as tow vehicles. Sometimes a short wheelbase vehicle simply won't tow with stability no matter what hitch configuration is selected. Even a Hensley or a ProPride which "WILL" eliminate the sway, won't handle crosswinds and passing trucks if the tow vehicle weight is significantly less than the trailer weight/side surface area. Any trailer is effectively a sail behind the tow vehicle when you encounter crosswinds. With a conventional hitch, it may not be controllable, with a Hensley it may "stay behind the Jeep without sway", but depending on the rig's weight and side surface area, you may find yourself in the "next lane" unexpectedly with no way to counter the movement. That results in a true "white knuckle/brown pants" moment. If you look through some of the encounters documented on this forum, you'll find that some members have encountered those "unexpected moments" and have since "solved the issue" by purchasing a heavier/bigger tow vehicle and have had no control issues since that purchase.

Good Luck,

John,

I appreciate your expertise in this area. There are a lot of variables that must be taken into consideration to make certain that you are not overloaded in some capacity, car, trailer and tongue weight. I can't imagine how many of the campers I see going down the road are overloaded in some regard, but I bet it is thousands. That's scary.

Your posts that I have been reading over the past week have certainly made me scale down the size of trailer I will be getting. I am a little ticked off at jeep, what they say you can tow with a jeep and what you can actually tow and be safe, based on the forums information are night and day.

Couple of questions for you.

1. If my TV has a payload of 1050 and my trail tongue weight is 720, does that mean I only have 330 for passengers and cargo? Which would mean I couldn't take my wife with me. (combined we would be over that limit). (tx)

2. I understand that WD hitch will take some of the weight off the hitch and send some to the TV front axle and some to the trailer thus lowering weight on the hitch. Does this allow me more weight in the TV?

Thanks for the help.

[JRTJH]

John,

I appreciate your expertise in this area. There are a lot of variables that must be taken into consideration to make certain that you are not overloaded in some capacity, car, trailer and tongue weight. I can't imagine how many of the campers I see going down the road are overloaded in some regard, but I bet it is thousands. That's scary.

Your posts that I have been reading over the past week have certainly made me scale down the size of trailer I will be getting. I am a little ticked off at jeep, what they say you can tow with a jeep and what you can actually tow and be safe, based on the forums information are night and day.

Couple of questions for you.

1. If my TV has a payload of 1050 and my trail tongue weight is 720, does that mean I only have 330 for passengers and cargo? Which would mean I couldn't take my wife with me. (combined we would be over that limit). (tx)

2. I understand that WD hitch will take some of the weight off the hitch and send some to the TV front axle and some to the trailer thus lowering weight on the hitch. Does this allow me more weight in the TV?

Thanks for the help.

Yes, there are a lot of people who "honestly believe they are within their limits" who are unknowingly towing way over their "engineering limits". It is scary. Jeep isn't the only manufacturer who "overadvertises" or "advertises at the limit" They all do it to "one up" the competition.

As for your questions:
1. Yes, with a 1050 payload, if you add 720 pounds of tongue weight, that leaves 330 pounds of "passenger/cargo" capability. On some vehicles, there is an "allowance" of 150 pounds for the driver and the payload is calculated with a full tank of fuel. To be safe and accurate, you might consider loading your Jeep as you would tow, with wife and you in the truck, then weigh it and see what it actually weighs. Then subtract that weight from the GVW. What's left is all the weight you can allocate to the trailer tongue/hitch assembly and other cargo. Remember that any accessories added to the Jeep since it left the factory also need to be subtracted from the "door post GVW sticker's payload" Any dealer added or owner added "stuff" is a part of the payload. That includes floor mats, GPS, tool kit, safety kit, maps and gloves in the console, etc...... (that's why an actual weight is more accurate)

2. The WD hitch does take some weight off the hitch. It transfers about 20% to the front axle (that is still a part of the payload consideration) and it transfers about 10-15% back to the trailer axles. That "theoretically" would give you a "little extra payload" but when you factor in the weight of the hitch, it pretty much comes out a wash. If you think about it, when you put your trailer on the scale, with the hitch on one pad and the axles on another, you get the "hitch weight" and the "axle weight". Those added together should total the "trailer weight". When you put your vehicle on the scale, you get the "total weight" of the Jeep, but if you haven't got the hitch in the receiver and the weight bars attached to that assembly, you'll be omitting about 75-100 pounds of weight. Normally that's about what is transferred to the trailer axles. That's why I consider the WD hitch transfer a "wash". ie: What transfers forward is still part of the jeep payload and what transfers back is negated by the weight of the added hitch components.

I hope that explains it a bit clearer.... And yes, I'd be ticked at Jeep as well. Of course my Ford F250 isn't capable of towing what Ford says it can either. Nor can Chevrolet or Dodge or GM or Toyota or Nissan or ????? So you're not alone in being "caught up in the advertising claims" from the manufacturers....

Good luck and choose something that works for you and stays within the safety realm of "reality" :) That might mean a smaller trailer or possibly a bigger tow vehicle..... I just bought my "bigger truck" last summer when we upgraded trailers, so I know what you're facing. Remember the old adage: "It's only money" <sigh>

[OurLuckyPenny]

There seems to be little doubt that having a tow vehicle that exceeds all recommended weight/towing requirements is wise.

However, that being the case, why are many of the trailer manufacturers now, fairly recently, manufacturing extra-lite trailers and touting them as being safe to pull with 1/2 ton tow vehicles???

The general gist of the conclusions that most of the experienced moderators are offering is that no combination of trailer and 1/2 ton tow vehicle is safe! Is that the case?

Also, hardly any of you crank in information that takes into account the use of a Weight Distribution Hitch. Do these hitches make a difference or not? In other words, why spend in the neighborhood of $800 more or less for a WDH if it doesn't increase the towability of your rig?

[Ken / Claudia]

Brent, I see your in Oregon, being retired from OSP I will only say what I, we, did do and seen. We see many overloaded vehicles and vehicles combinations on the highways. Some get stopped and checked, the law is if your within 5 miles of any wt. station A police office can have you weighted. Some, many do not get checked, some get inspected after a crash. cites can be for over GVRW, unsafe vehicle operation, careless driving. We, normally did not cite if within 1,000 lbs of over wt. but, because people overload does not make in legal or safe. I have read a few tow tests and seen in print they tow at 75% of that is listed as max rating for all wt.s that might be a good place to try and buy a RV at to be safe.

[Festus2]

[QUOTE=OurLuckyPenny;158496]There seems to be little doubt that having a tow vehicle that exceeds all recommended weight/towing requirements is wise.

However, that being the case, why are many of the trailer manufacturers now, fairly recently, manufacturing extra-lite trailers and touting them as being safe to pull with 1/2 ton tow vehicles???

The general gist of the conclusions that most of the experienced moderators are offering is that no combination of trailer and 1/2 ton tow vehicle is safe! Is that the case?

Also, hardly any of you crank in information that takes into account the use of a Weight Distribution Hitch. Do these hitches make a difference or not? In other words, why spend in the neighborhood of $800 more or less for a WDH if it doesn't increase the towability of your rig?[/QUOTRV

RV manufacturers are no different from truck makers who "overstate" their vehicles' towing capacity. Both groups, as part of their advertising strategy, will promote their products and how easy it is for the consumer to pull this or that or is "1/2 Towable". Both will tell you as much as "they can get away with" while trying to stay legal and believable.

I don't think JRTJH is saying that you can't tow any RV with a 1/2T. There are properly equipped 1/2T's out there that can safely pull an RV that falls within the real towing capacity and payload of the tow vehicle.

In most instances having a WD hitch will make a significant different to the handling, especially the sway, of the rig.

[Brent1974]

Brent, I see your in Oregon, being retired from OSP I will only say what I, we, did do and seen. We see many overloaded vehicles and vehicles combinations on the highways. Some get stopped and checked, the law is if your within 5 miles of any wt. station A police office can have you weighted. Some, many do not get checked, some get inspected after a crash. cites can be for over GVRW, unsafe vehicle operation, careless driving. We, normally did not cite if within 1,000 lbs of over wt. but, because people overload does not make in legal or safe. I have read a few tow tests and seen in print they tow at 75% of that is listed as max rating for all wt.s that might be a good place to try and buy a RV at to be safe.

Ken,

I appreciate the information. Yes, I've seen similar information and agree. Good starting point. I am looking for a much lighter and shorter trailer because of my jeeps limitations. I NEED A BIGGER TRUCK. It's just been in the last few weeks that I've started to do some research. I appreciate forums like this, and people like you and John that have a lot to offer, because I am a novice at this, but I'm getting educated fast. I was in Aloha a couple of weeks ago at Curtis Trailer, they tried to sell me your trailer, 24RKSWE (27ft TT) Cougar 1/2 ton series. How would you of like to see me coming down the road at you in my jeep towing that trailer. I'm looking at something about 2,000 lbs lighter and 6 feet shorter because of this forum.

Thanks
Brent

[JRTJH]

There seems to be little doubt that having a tow vehicle that exceeds all recommended weight/towing requirements is wise.

However, that being the case, why are many of the trailer manufacturers now, fairly recently, manufacturing extra-lite trailers and touting them as being safe to pull with 1/2 ton tow vehicles???

The general gist of the conclusions that most of the experienced moderators are offering is that no combination of trailer and 1/2 ton tow vehicle is safe! Is that the case?

Also, hardly any of you crank in information that takes into account the use of a Weight Distribution Hitch. Do these hitches make a difference or not? In other words, why spend in the neighborhood of $800 more or less for a WDH if it doesn't increase the towability of your rig?

Let's see, how do I answer your comments and make sense of what Keystone, Ford, GM and Chrysler "claim" as "advantages to buying their product over the competition".....

First, Nobody has ever said (to my knowledge anyway) that half ton trucks can't tow travel trailers. I see them on the highway almost every time I travel on an interstate. How many of them are "legally within the design limits of the manufacturers (both RV and Tow Vehicle) Now that's an entirely different question.

Yes, Keystone and most other manufacturers of RV's claim to have a "half ton towable" RV line. If you read the very small print on every Keystone brochure, you'll see this: "Tow Vehicle disclaimer. CAUTION: Owners of Keystone recreational vehicles are solely responsible for the selection and proper use of tow vehicles. All customers should consult with a motor vehicle manufacturer or their dealer concerning the purchase and use of suitable tow vehicles for Keystone products. Keystone disclaims any liability or damages suffered as a result of the selection, operation, use or misuse of a tow vehicle. KEYSTONE’S LIMITED WARRANTY DOES NOT COVER DAMAGE TO THE RECREATIONAL VEHICLE OR THE TOW VEHICLE AS A RESULT OF THE SELECTION, OPERATION, USE OR MISUSE OF THE TOW VEHICLE."

Essentially what that statement does is remove any liability for trying to tow a Keystone RV with a Yugo. I know that sounds "trite" and "unaccommodating", but honestly, every manufacturer advertises their product to be the "best, most capable, most comfortable and easiest to tow".... Can they all honestly claim those features? NO, they can't.

Certainly, trailers in the "Cougar Half Ton" line are "half ton towable" Some may even be towable by any half ton truck. But to think that a F150 with a small V-6 and a GVW of 6800 pounds has the same "towability" as a F150HD with a EcoBoost, 8200 pound GVW and a Heavy Duty Tow package, just simply is comparing apples and oranges, or maybe better put, comparing Capable trucks to Incapable trucks... Sure, a "small half ton" can tow, but not at the same level as a "properly equipped" half ton. So, things simply aren't equal in the towing world. Attempting to tow a small 18' trailer behind that small V-6 will produce significantly different results than attempting to hitch a 33' "half ton" fifth wheel to the bed of the same truck. It simply will be overloaded, over-taxed and anyone attempting to tow that rig will likely not make it very far before they have some significant mechanical problems.... Is it a "half ton truck and a half ton trailer" ?? Yes, but certainly not a "half ton towable rig".... Properly equipped tow vehicles are capable of towing properly matched trailers, but not every vehicle is properly equipped for "anything you hitch to it"......

Now as for your question concerning WD hitches and what they do, if you'd have read my comments in post #47 of this thread (just about 3 posts up), you would have found the answer to your question. I won't repeat the answer here, but you might want to "read up" just 3 or 4 posts.

Lastly, your comment, "The general gist of the conclusions that most of the experienced moderators are offering is that no combination of trailer and 1/2 ton tow vehicle is safe! Is that the case?" is simply untrue. No moderator has ever said that no combination of trailer and half ton truck is unsafe. Hell, my previous rig was a half ton F150 with a Springdale fifth wheel. All the numbers and all the limits were well within Ford's and Keystone's guidance and I always felt safe in the rig.

I sense your frustration, but if you're going to make accusations, please, at least get the facts right......

Thanks

[DrFaustus]

I read through this post and thought that I should add my two cents. I have a 2014 321TBH Terrain by Outback. I currently tow my trailer with a 2011 Silverado 1500 Crew Cab, short box with the 5.3 Liter 3.42 Z71 and the HD Trailering Package. I installed a P3 Tekonsha Break controller and Towing Mirrors aftermarket. My truck comes with the Transmission cooler and the Engine cooler as part of the towing package. I have NO problems towing my rig with this truck. It sounds like you have a similar TV. My Truck has enough power to tow this trailer and then some.

I think you will be okay

Go and HAVE FUN :)

REVISION: APPARENTLY I have offended someone with my response. Do what you know your limitations are. Research it on your own and get the facts before getting on the road.

[Festus2]

My Truck has enough power to tow this trailer and then some.
I think you will be okay
Go and HAVE FUN :)

DrFaustus - I don't usually get into these kinds of discussions and instead sit back and read what others have to say. In this case, I am making an exception and will toss in my 2 cents and take off my Moderator's hat.

No disrespect intended but I couldn't disagree more with your comments.

First, what does having a P3 Tekonsha brake controller or after-market towing mirrors have to do with the towing capacity of your truck to tow anything? Nothing. Secondly, having a transmission and engine cooler are standard features of the towing package that you have. They do nothing to increase the towing capacity of your truck. I may be misreading your post but it sounds as if you are including these features to give the impression that they somehow enhance your truck's payload when in fact they do not.

Thirdly, just how much more trailer can your truck safely tow? You claim it has enough power to tow your 35 footer and "then some". What about 38 feet? 40 feet? Are these lengths within the "then some" parameters? There is a lot more to safe towing other than having "enough power" - something which you omitted from your reply.

Have you ever been to a weigh scale with your Silverado and TT? If so, I'd be interested in seeing the numbers if you would consider sharing them with us.

Frankly, I think you are giving the OP some questionable advice when you suggest that he will "be okay". Based on the scanty and incomplete information regarding the specifics of your towing situation ( weigh scale figures, pin weights, towing data from your TV and TT stickers, etc.) and then telling him that your TV's and towing situation are similar so he should be fine is just not on.

So, how can you, in good faith, tell him to "go and have fun"? :confused:

[Desert185]

With regard to sway and not payload, the addition of a rear anti-sway bar assists considerably in minimizing roll steer due to the trailer "sailing" in a crosswind or big rigs passing. Something to consider if one feels he or she is being pushed around while towing.

[Barbell]

I have not read every word of the comments about why towing with a 1/2 ton is not a good idea, but of what I have seen, they all come down to one thing that has not been mentioned. Sure, your V8 gas powered pickup can pull the
TT or FW at 70+ mph on the Interstate and maybe you can survive the crosswinds. BUT, can you stop your outfit? What do you do when the goofy driver in front of you suddenly decides he/she needs to make a left turn without signaling? Can you stop in time to avoid a rear-ender or can you swerve into another lane (assuming there is one) without contacting the vehicle beside you? Towing mirrors, four-wheel drive, 400 horsepower and all the other goodies are of absolutely no use in that situation. We pull a 36 ft Montana with a 3/4 ton diesel and there are some who say we don't have enough truck and they may be right, but I do know I can stop if I have to.

[gtsum2]

Payload capacity or lack thereof is the Achilles heal of most half tons. They can tow it, but many are at max payload capacity or over with a trailer around 7500lbs (counting the family in the truck and gear as well). I know firsthand as I had a 2013 ram 1500....I now have a 2014 ram 3500 cummins:)

[Ken / Claudia]

Barbell,
Part of the fed safety regs. not only says motor vehicles must have brakes but, those brakes must be able to stop the vehicle and trailer or load within xxx amount of feet at xx speed. If any vehicle is over loaded at some point the weight that vehicle is moving. The vehicle will not stop at those targeted distances. I think but, cannot prove it that part of the CGWR and GVWR considers that stopping distance. In your case you have the same brakes as a 1 ton with higher towing/payload. I guess one could say you have more brakes than needed but, is that not a good thing.
04-09 update Sorry guys, I did some checking and I am wrong about Fed regs including GVWR and CGVWR connecting them to required stopping distances. I asked a crash expert and he said Oregon has state law that is outdated but, lists required stopping distances for all vehicles at different speeds. Nothing in Fed regs that relates to this topic, I brought up.

[DrFaustus]

DrFaustus - I don't usually get into these kinds of discussions and instead sit back and read what others have to say. In this case, I am making an exception and will toss in my 2 cents and take off my Moderator's hat.

No disrespect intended but I couldn't disagree more with your comments.

First, what does having a P3 Tekonsha brake controller or after-market towing mirrors have to do with the towing capacity of your truck to tow anything? Nothing. Secondly, having a transmission and engine cooler are standard features of the towing package that you have. They do nothing to increase the towing capacity of your truck. I may be misreading your post but it sounds as if you are including these features to give the impression that they somehow enhance your truck's payload when in fact they do not.

Thirdly, just how much more trailer can your truck safely tow? You claim it has enough power to tow your 35 footer and "then some". What about 38 feet? 40 feet? Are these lengths within the "then some" parameters? There is a lot more to safe towing other than having "enough power" - something which you omitted from your reply.

Have you ever been to a weigh scale with your Silverado and TT? If so, I'd be interested in seeing the numbers if you would consider sharing them with us.

Frankly, I think you are giving the OP some questionable advice when you suggest that he will "be okay". Based on the scanty and incomplete information regarding the specifics of your towing situation ( weigh scale figures, pin weights, towing data from your TV and TT stickers, etc.) and then telling him that your TV's and towing situation are similar so he should be fine is just not on.

So, how can you, in good faith, tell him to "go and have fun"? :confused:


Festus2, with all due respect I think your attack of my response is inappropriate.

I was simply trying to describe my towing experience. You may feel free to go look up the towing capacities of my vehicle at your leisure. It is a 2011 Z71 with trailering package, tranny cooler and engine cooler 5.3 liter V8 with 3.42 rear end. My trailer is a 2014 Terrain by Keystone Ultra Light 321TBH. Again, you can lookup the specs at your leisure. I use a 14K Equalizer hitch and sway system. Yes my trailer is 35 foot and if the weight was right I sure would tow something longer and not think twice about it as long as it fit within spec.

You have completely misread my response and I think you owe me an apology or not cause frankly I could care less

I know my limitations, this isn't my first rodeo and I know what I'm doing in my towing situation.

[notanlines]

I also must "respectfully" disagree with the good doctor. I happened to notice
that you are doing your towing in West Virginia and probably surrounding area? Hmmm.....We tow from Memphis to Cumberland, Maryland on a regular
basis so are quite familiar with the terrain. This is also not my first rodeo, far from it. I have pictured in my mind following your rig up some of the West Virginia mountains, then watching you try to stop your 15,000 pounds coming down the other side.
Also, chill out just a little and enjoy being here. Part of the fun of coming here is the idea that people should be able to disagree with one another.

[DrFaustus]

I also must "respectfully" disagree with the good doctor. I happened to notice
that you are doing your towing in West Virginia and probably surrounding area? Hmmm.....We tow from Memphis to Cumberland, Maryland on a regular
basis so are quite familiar with the terrain. This is also not my first rodeo, far from it. I have pictured in my mind following your rig up some of the West Virginia mountains, then watching you try to stop your 15,000 pounds coming down the other side.
Also, chill out just a little and enjoy being here. Part of the fun of coming here is the idea that people should be able to disagree with one another.

Thanks notanlines. I do enjoy being in this forum and find lots of useful information in here. Since you are familiar with our terrain in Wild and Wonderful I am certain you have traveled Powell Mountain on more than one occassion. I have towed my TT on that mountain more than once and have had zero problems with it. Maybe I have a special build of truck or something but I haven't had any issues.

As a matter of fact I am steaming up to Hershey in July for Vacation with the Fam. Looking forward to it.

At any rate, I was merely suggesting to the OP that I tow successfully with my current rig.

To the OP just research and do what is safe for you and your situation.

[Javi]

It's all about reference and experience... If I have never towed my trailer with anything but a 1/2 ton pickup, then I have no reference or experience to base a comparison upon. Therefore what I see as good performance, may well be mediocre or even poor to another.

[C130]

Festus2, with all due respect I think your attack of my response is inappropriate.

You have completely misread my response and I think you owe me an apology or not cause frankly I could care less.

You can't be serious? By the way, are you actually a real doctor? Because if so, reminds me a lot of the doctors that fly their own airplanes.

35 foot trailer with a 1/2 ton; yeap, that goes in the category as "just doesn't know any better".

[chuckster57]

ENOUGH boys.

[14george]

I used to put a TT with a Nissan Frountier don't know what I was thinking but I will never do that again upgraded to a Toyota Tundra a world of difference

[Ken / Claudia]

Javi, Is a man of few words but, he sure uses those words to make sense. Post #60 is what I have said or wanted to say.

[bobbecky]

I'm not even going to talk weights or capacities of tow vehicles. What I was educated about 1/2 ton towing, by a relative who is an automotive instructor at a community college, is, you will be at or very close to the max capacities, and unlike the heavier 3/4 ton or 1 ton trucks that have very heavy differentials and transmissions, the 1/2 ton trucks are very light in these areas and the heat buildup from towing will break down the lubricants very quickly. He advised adding temperature sensors to the differentials and trannies so the temps can be monitored, and he suggested changing the fluids quite often to protect the gears and bearings from inadequate lubricants. He also said, the gas engines will spend a lot of time at much higher rpm's climbing grades, and the same advise for frequent oil changes applies to the engines also. You will not be in a happy place if you lose a part of your drive train due to lack of maintenance when you should be having a great time camping at your favorite destination.

[michael_h]

[QUOTE=We loaded pretty light: 2/3 tank of fresh water (about 40 gals), QUOTE]

I know people here are going to disagree with me, but if you are going to tow with water in your tanks, it is best to tow with full tanks, not particle. I tow a 125 gallon water tank at work, behind an F350 super duty dually with a loaded fully covered utility box. With a partial fill in the tank the trailer gets to swaying so bad it jerks the back of the truck around (I try to keep my speeds no more than 55 max when towing that trailer). I now only tow it either full or empty but never partial

From that experience with my TT, all my tanks are either full as I can get them or empty, no in between. I've never seen it mentioned that some of the sway problems people may experience could be amplified by particle filled tanks, but my experience from work tells me 200 pounds of water can move a 10K truck making it dangerous to control

I either fill up when I get to my destination, or if there is no drinking water where I'm headed, a grocery store 36 count often is more than enough for the wife and I on a weekend.

[GunDoc]

It’s been quite a while since I have been on this site…I have owned and towed my Cougar for a year now and would like to report that it tows GREAT with my ½ ton! I have towed in heavy cross winds, up mountains, in driving rainstorms and through city traffic without any problems. I don’t even feel semis when they pass, nor do I get any sway. The Equalizer IV works great! My truck and trailer sit level when hitched and I have more than enough power to exceed the speed limit if I ever thought of doing so. Granted, I load fairly light, since I normally only go out for two or three nights. I don’t tow with more than about 10 gallons of fresh water (for emergencies) and passenger load is right at 500lbs for the three of us. My trailer has a very light hitch weight (610lbs dry) and I don’t carry more than 100lbs or so in the bed of the truck – all in a Pelikan case to keep the load from shifting. With all of this, I still have about 700lbs of payload to play with. I plan on keeping this rig for a few more years, then move up to a 1 ton with fifth wheel.

[GunDoc]

Bobbecky, Most newer ½ ton trucks are now equipped with 6 speed transmissions that include external transmission fluid coolers. Their gear ratios are such that they “match” the engines power band much better than the older 4 speed tranys. By doing so, the engine does not have to continually rev higher. Your relative may, or may not know that modern transmission also run hotter by design and the fluids (synthetic) are formulated for these higher temps. My transmission often runs cooler towing than when empty. I too know a little about drive trains. I supervise 30 technical representatives across an eight-state area (western US) for the US Army’s Tank Automotive and Armaments Command, the command responsible for developing, fielding and support ALL of the Army’s automotive and armament equipment, to include trucks, trailers, tanks, engineer equipment, etc. We provide technical assistance on all matters concerning automotive systems, up to and including over the road semi trucks in the Army’s inventory.

Michael, I agree, a WATER trailer, by design tows much better when either full, or empty. Most are cylindrical and allow for shifting of the load, unless, of course they are equipped with internal baffles which will retard the movement of the liquid. A water trailer also has a much shorter wheelbase. TT water tanks are much flatter to fit the tight confines of a TT, so movement of the water is reduced. These facts coupled with the difference in weight (around 333lbs for 40 gal vs 625lbs for 75 gals) make comparing towing a partially full water trailer to a TT with some water in the fresh tank a true “apples to oranges” comparison.

[jsmith948]

[My transmission often runs cooler towing than when empty.]

RRRReeeaaaallllyyyyy????????:rolleyes:

[GunDoc]

Jsmith948, Yes, really. Most new transmissions have thermostats that limit flow of the fluid to get them up to operating temps. This can be anywhere from ~ 150 to 230F or more depending on the conditions – ambient air temps, grade, load, even tire inflation.

When towing on the straight and level in 70-80F weather my trans runs right around 190F. On a warmer day, or going uphill (empty) my trans may hit 200F. New transmissions are designed to run (SAFELY) at well over 200F. GM says theirs will run at 270-285F! Of course this would be in VERY extreme conditions and temps between 190 and 225F are more common even when towing. Anything over 270 WILL lead to rapid, premature failure. The old charts everyone likes to point to are based on old technology (at least 20 years old) and are of course cited by the aftermarket to sell coolers and trany fluid.

Running transmission fluids or engine oil for that matter at too low a temperature will also accelerate wear and cause damage to internal components. Oils have to get up to a temperature significant enough to remove condensation, which occurs as the sealed unit heats and cools. Condensation can lead to corrosion due to chemical changes in the fluids.

Owner’s manuals cite normal operating ranges of just about everything on our TVs. These ranges aren’t just “made up,” or guessed at. The automotive industry spends millions every year on R&D which includes exhaustive testing - Design, test, break, redesign and test again. The government also gets involved with mandated safety standards. The numbers listed in your owner’s manual have “met the test” and have been approved, by both the manufacturer and the appropriate safety agency.

[Seabee]

Jsmith948, Yes, really. Most new transmissions have thermostats that limit flow of the fluid to get them up to operating temps. This can be anywhere from ~ 150 to 230F or more depending on the conditions – ambient air temps, grade, load, even tire inflation.

When towing on the straight and level in 70-80F weather my trans runs right around 190F. On a warmer day, or going uphill (empty) my trans may hit 200F. New transmissions are designed to run (SAFELY) at well over 200F. GM says theirs will run at 270-285F! Of course this would be in VERY extreme conditions and temps between 190 and 225F are more common even when towing. Anything over 270 WILL lead to rapid, premature failure. The old charts everyone likes to point to are based on old technology (at least 20 years old) and are of course cited by the aftermarket to sell coolers and trany fluid.

Running transmission fluids or engine oil for that matter at too low a temperature will also accelerate wear and cause damage to internal components. Oils have to get up to a temperature significant enough to remove condensation, which occurs as the sealed unit heats and cools. Condensation can lead to corrosion due to chemical changes in the fluids.

Owner’s manuals cite normal operating ranges of just about everything on our TVs. These ranges aren’t just “made up,” or guessed at. The automotive industry spends millions every year on R&D which includes exhaustive testing - Design, test, break, redesign and test again. The government also gets involved with mandated safety standards. The numbers listed in your owner’s manual have “met the test” and have been approved, by both the manufacturer and the appropriate safety agency.

The transmissions may very well be able to handle temps above 270F. The fluid will not. Period. If you feel comfortable running your trans at those kind of temps then more power to you Bro. By the by, a trans will not....I say again....will not run cooler when towing a heavy load. Simple physics wins every time.

[jsmith948]

Have to agree with SeaBee, while you stated in your response that the 'new technology' transmissions have thermostats that reduce fluid cooling during 'warm ups', that does not convince me that ANY drive train component will run cooler under load than when not under load. By the way, as a veteran, I can argue that not everything the military says or does is logical, accurate or correct! Just sayin' :D

[JRTJH]

Have to agree with SeaBee, while you stated in your response that the 'new technology' transmissions have thermostats that reduce fluid cooling during 'warm ups', that does not convince me that ANY drive train component will run cooler under load than when not under load. By the way, as a veteran, I can argue that not everything the military says or does is logical, accurate or correct! Just sayin' :D

Thanks for your service and, after 26 years of "head scratching and asking, "Why did we do that?" I'll certainly agree with your assessment of military operations. But it's not just the military, remember the "current issues" with TAKATA airbags and the recent GM ignition concern. Wrong decisions and going forward with wrong data is prevalent everywhere.

[GunDoc]

Seabee, If you read my post again you will note that I said GM says that their tranys will operate at 270-285F in the most extreme conditions.. You will also see that I said that ANY temp over 270 will cause damage!

Jsmith, you can disagree all you like, but the fact remains that there are many times that my trany temp is hotter running empty than when towing. I am not saying that IF I were to tow the same way I drive empty that the trany temps would just as high. I adjust my driving style and always use TOW/HAUL when towing.

You are right saying that not everything the military does makes sense. I have either been in, or worked for the military for 42 years. Of course the military does not build the vehicles they use, rather Oshkosh, Navistar, AM General, Freightliner and others do. And yes, some time they get it wrong, much like the airbag fiasco. We (TACOM) issue Safety Of Use Messages, Maintenance Advisory Messages, and Field Alerts many times a year. We also submit Product Quality Deficiency Reports for parts that have quality problems.

Bottom line: Once the vehicles leave the assembly line the engineering process does not stop. When problems are found they are corrected, parts and processes are improved and manuals are revised. The automotive industry does the same thing through recalls and changes service schedules, etc.

I’ve been to the assembly lines, the test tracks and to the factory schools. I am not just stating some opinion based on things I’ve seen on the internet, or head by word of mouth. I am actively involved in this process every day.