New 5er - Brake problem?

[denverpilot]

I'll throw this out to the forum to see what y'all think.

We picked up a new 5er (Laredo 312RE) this winter and haven't done our shakedown cruise yet.

But, I have towed it around for about three hours or so, including a trip to the scales.

Description of the towing setup:

- New to me 2001 Dodge Ram 3500 dually, outfitted with both 5th wheel hitch and standard hitch. Two standard large RV connectors for trailers, one in the bed (for the 5er), one on the bumper.

- New trailer. Dealer says it was towed from the Midwest to Denver prior to delivery.

- Prodigy P3 brake controller.

Symptom:

- I can't get the trailer brakes to lock up when full brake is applied via the spring loaded manual brake lever on the Prodigy.

- Braking seems "good" and can stop very quickly.

- Trailer brakes can slowly stop the entire rig if applied on an empty road at say 20-30 MPH.

My thoughts on possible things to check:

- Dealer possibly never did the initial adjustment on the trailer drum brakes after initial break-in. I'm thinking I would like to pick up a Trailer Buddy for true changes or future brake adjustments/brake jobs anyway, but not yet ordered. I have both a 2 ton and 3 ton shop jack available and two 2 ton jack stands.

Not sure I'm comfortable jacking the trailer mostly out of unfamiliarity with where to jack on the frame, and the weight of the trailer. Should I? I assume what I would be looking for is that the wheels will not turn easily if the drums are set up correctly and will have some drag.

Also haven't ordered the Trailer Buddy because I'm not sure how well it'll work with the close tires/axles on the 312RE. They're only about 4" apart.

- Wiring problem on the truck. I've only connected to the bed connection. The trailer appears to have enough cable to hook to the bumper connector at least for a short pull down the county road to see if the other connector behaves differently. Anyone have info on the top of their head for what can be measured to conclude if the Prodigy is ok, with a VOM at the connectors?

- Wiring problem on the trailer. A wire disconnected, etc. I would normally expect this would create an uneven braking problem and either left or right brakes would be behaving better. Neither side locks up.

- Additional question: Any benefit in starting from a stop with the trailer brake safety actuator pin pulled? I've pulled it briefly to test it and can hear the brakes activate on the trailer and a light buzz. I don't think starting from a standstill with that activated tells me much in this scenario...?

- Stuff I haven't thought of? (Why I'm posting...!) (grin!)

Going to head home and switch connectors on the TV and try that. I hitched up last night and ran out of daylight before test #2.

Towing it last might there didn't seem to be much if a difference between the Prodigy set to 95% or 130% and the "Boost" setting really only changes how "jerky" stops feel and whether it feels like the trailer is braking too much at light braking. Boost level 2 and 130% provides the quickest and smoothest stop. It doesn't feel out of control even if I get on the brakes hard enough to activate the TV's ABS system.

Couldn't even lock the trailer tires on dirt road.

Anyone else run into anything similar before? Thanks in advance. Will report back on the connector change. Maybe we have a bad splice or an undersized wire.

[denverpilot]

Well, came home to see this...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/18/u7ugy6yh.jpg

Guess I'll be learning how to put my spare on, no matter how I slice it.

ROFL! Always something.

At least it happened in the driveway, eh!

[therink]

Congrats on the new rig.
My fiver weighs 12,280 loaded and the wheels do not lock up when applying the brakes heavy or when moving the slider, at least not on dry pavement. The trailer is very heavy and I have found with my last 2 trailers over 10k, the wheels don't lock. They may lock up on wet or gravel roads, but you don't want them to lock. What is most important is that all 4 brakes are engaging and that they work well enough to supplement the truck brakes to stop when you need to.
To test the brakes, first make sure that the brakes are en aging or getting power to all four wheels. Do this by applying brakes (while parked) repeatedly using a a 2nd person to confirm by sound and touch that they brake hum can be felt/heard at each wheel. Next, drive the trailer for 10 or 15 miles to get wheels and brakes good and warm. When you stop, place to your hand on all 4 hubs and wheels and all 4 should be around the same temp. If all the same temp by feel, your brakes should be good. If not, they may need adjusting. Is you need to adjust the brakes, there are plenty of you tube videos or online resources (Dexter axle) to show how this is done or you can have your dealer do it.
Also, I would make the dealer replace the one tire (assuming that all you did was tow it home), or replace the sub-standard factory tires all together with a good set of LT's or a reputable ST brand. If any of the tires were low on air while in transport from the factory, their days are numbered.
Good luck and check back in.
Steve

[denverpilot]

Thanks for the info. I guess I'm used to lighter trailers and being able to set the controller to lick them up briefly, then back them off from that setting.

As far as the tires go, I'll wait and see if it has a puncture. There's a lot of crap lying around in our dirt roads out here. I won't be too surprised if it's a nail.

Plans were to put on a TPMS system. Was just figuring out the brake thing first. And deciding on a TPMS.

The TV is old enough it doesn't have TPMS built in, so was going to get a ten tire TPMS system after some thought about which one and sensors.

Besides the trailer tires, I don't like not knowing if the dually tires are equal on the TV and checking the inside tire is a PITA. ;)

Interesting info on the bigger/heavier trailers though. I guess just bad assumption on my part that they'd act like our previous lighter trailers. I can just lock up my 10,000 lb cargo/car hauler on a regular hitch.

[Ken / Claudia]

I would mention to read thru the controller manual about the boost and what level they say it should be at with the wt. of the tlr and truck since you got the wts. On my current combo, the stopping was fine without boost but, better on 1st level and jerked the truck to a stop at 2nd level. On mine the TLR is lighter than the truck by around 800- 1,000 lbs. Adjusting or checking the trailer brakes is easy, just takes awhile, jacking up and down. I think sooner or later you might want to learn how and not need to go to a shop while traveling.

[denverpilot]

Thanks for the tip on the controller manual. I'll look that up. I think I did once but forgot.

More research on the tires... Trailer King China Bombs...

Manufacture date code: 50th week of 2012.

Trailer purchased Feb 2014.

(Grrrr.)

And confirmed the manufacturer code: JE
SHANDONG YONGSHENG RUBBER CO., LTD.
DONGYING
SHANDONG
CHINA

Total crap.

Shopping for new tires and a TPMS will commence, immediately after the spare is on.

I know all the trailer manufacturers are doing it, but I will know better next time. Either I'll hunt for a manufacturer who isn't skimping by then (unlikely) or negotiate tire replacement at purchase.

[denverpilot]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/18/upu3yqu2.jpg

Forgot the photo.

[bsmith0404]

As stated before, the brakes typically don't completely lock from the controller. If you want to see if they lock, pull the safety disconnect switch. I had mine get pulled once, hooked on something in the bed while turning. Couldn't move the camper, stuck right in the middle of the intersection until I plugged the switch back in. Learned real quick not to have anything around that cable!!

[hankaye]

denverpilot, Howdy;

Have a friend step on the brake peddle, and hold a
compass (N,S,E,& W type), near the wheel. The needle
should snap to the wheel when the brakes are applied.
That will let you know the magnets are getting power.

hankaye

[denverpilot]

denverpilot, Howdy;



Have a friend step on the brake peddle, and hold a

compass (N,S,E,& W type), near the wheel. The needle

should snap to the wheel when the brakes are applied.

That will let you know the magnets are getting power.



hankaye


Heh. That's a cool/smart trick. :-)

Thanks.

[msp2jxr]

I have a 37' 5th wheel that is over 10,000 pounds and I have the same concerns. I don't feel I get enough braking action. Last summer I took both the trailer and the truck in to have the brakes checked. The dealer checked the trailer and told me the brakes were fine. The Ford dealership checked the factory controller and stated everthing was fine. Two weeks ago I back out of my garage with 37,500 miles on the truck and heard the grinding sound of metal to metal when I put on the brakes. I took the front calipars off and found one set of pads had completely let go and the drivers side had chunks of the pads missing. You could tell the truck is doing way to much of the stopping and cooked the pads. The trailer brakes work but not enough and I have adjusted them until I can feel drag on the wheels. Not sure where else to go with this problem.

[denverpilot]

Judging by what I'm learning about how cheap the tires are, probably bigger brakes. Heh heh.

[theeyres]

As had been said, get the Prodigy set-up instructions. If you don't have them, they are available on-line. They are very specific about how to do it and you may be expecting the brakes to act like the old brake controllers which are jerky and either on or off. Get them set right you and can forget worrying about them.

[denverpilot]

Found my copy. Realized it's a P2. Simple setup. Anyway I remember reading it now and was using the correct technique. Setup is correct. Trailer simply will not lock up tires at any setting. Table shows B2 or B3 for trailer vs TV weight.

[denverpilot]

It warmed up. Got the spare on. :-)

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/21/dajuquga.jpg

Now seriously considering either a Goodyear G614 upgrade or just going on up to 17.5 wheels and real tires built for this kind of duty, since these tires have virtually zero safety margin.

Meanwhile, back to the original reason for posting...

Checked all brakes and all are activating. Spun the wheel and there's enough drag to stop the wheel and tire in half a revolution. Brakes seem to be adjusted alright.

And here's the reason for the flat...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/21/ymytahym.jpg

[JRTJH]

Well, unless the Chinese are adding magnets to the inside of their tires, you can't blame that flat on the tire.... When you go to get it repaired, don't let them do a "quick plug" repair. The plug insertion tool will possibly damage the steel cording and damage the tire.

The only approved repair is to dismount the tire and apply a patch to the inside.

If you didn't tow it with the tire flat, it's probably OK to reinstall and keep going. If you have any doubts, you might consider remounting the spare tire on that wheel and mount the repaired tire on the spare wheel. That way you'd have 4 "undamaged" tires on the ground again.... At least in theory.....

[denverpilot]

Understand it can be patched. Basically losing the tire made me realize what everyone else already knows, they're not worth keeping (or repairing). :)

Spare is on for now, and deciding what tires to put in it. Can't make up my mind between G614 or just biting the bullet and putting 17.5" wheels and good tires on it.

The G614 upgrade is steep enough it might make sense to go up to the bigger wheels and different tires that have a significant safety margin.

Goodyear is pretty proud of those G614s. :)

[JRTJH]

That's something that each owner needs to come to grips with based on their comfort level, budget and walking the fine line between "underkill" and "overkill".....

On trailers, tires are a functional part of the suspension as much as they are a means of rolling along the highway without losing air. Sidewall flex is one of the ways the suspension absorbs the bumps and jolts of the roadway. Since there are no shock absorbers on most trailers, the tires also are a part of keeping the bounce to a minimum.... On one end, (probably where Keystone equips the trailer) is the lightweight tire that "barely meets the minimum" and on the other end is the "solid rubber wheel/tire that will never self destruct".

Both are probably not the best overall choice. Finding a solution that will keep the trailer body together and protect it from the bumps of the road while maintaining a strong enough suspension system (including tires) to be reliable is a "middle of the road approach". Putting too much tire on can introduce other problems, putting too little tire on will not support the weight with any sense of reliability.

What's best for one application may be "all wrong" for another. Talk to an expert tire company, not one interested in maximizing their profits and get their take on what would be best. Then, get some second opinions from other reliable sources. The best option is not always the one with the biggest "out of pocket donation" to a "thriving tire business"......

Good Luck.

[denverpilot]

Great advice. Thanks. So far the "experts" have said they'll "call back in an hour" with options and haven't bothered to call back. The chain places also want to sell their brand whatever it is.

I suspect the reason Goodyear can get the $ they get out of the G614 is that it perfectly fills that niche between the low end and completely rebuilding the wheel/tire "system" from the ground up.

Anyway appreciate the thoughts. You got me over the hump of "what's the best?" to... "What can I live with, since the dummy in the mirror has to live with the results."

Will make a few more calls but leaning toward the G614 and if they behave badly, second step would be new wheels in 17.5 and a much better tire.

Definitely don't have any personal confidence in the tires that are on there. They might last like they have for some, but I have two miles of often washboarded dirt road that I have to pull through to leave and return home on every trip, so thinking through the stresses that will cause, not going to risk it with the OEM tires.

Someone with a lighter work trailer will enjoy the cheap lightly used set, and they can choose if they want to patch the one with the screw in it. In some applications, the OEM tires would be fine. (Much lighter trailer...)

[JRTJH]

There's a very good recent thread that might shed some light on tire selection while you're waiting for that "very interested tire dealer" to return your call.....

If you haven't read this thread, it might interest you as it has many of the same issues you're facing: http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15834

[denverpilot]

There's a very good recent thread that might shed some light on tire selection while you're waiting for that "very interested tire dealer" to return your call.....



If you haven't read this thread, it might interest you as it has many of the same issues you're facing: http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15834


Thanks. Yeah, I've been reading threads for days, and you can see the results above. Basically the comment that said, "do whatever you can live with" sealed it up for me after talking to the Discount Tire guy.

I've got history in their computer back to 2000 with my first Jeep, and have known the guy I talked to for quite some time, so I'm going to "take the calculated risk" of the F rated Carlisles.

But the threads really do show the conundrum the trailer manufacturers put us all in by just barely squeaking by on the tires and load ratings. Load range E tires look "fine" for this trailer if you know you're not above GVWR, it's not 105 degrees out, and the tires haven't been on for three seasons. ;)

Since that's not very "real world", I'll give these F rated tires a shot and won't cry (ha!) too much if I have a problem. But if they tick me off, they're gone and I'll call Trailer Wheel and Tire and order the "ouch my wallet hurts" 17.5 wheels and Michelin German made tires and never look at an ST tire in the rear view mirror ever again.

And I suppose I must close with the oldest Internet meme out there...

"Your mileage may vary." :) :) :)

[denverpilot]

I just realized I mixed threads a bit, but the full thought process of ditching the G614 idea for the Carlisles is also in my "door lock" thread. Heh. ;)

(No, I haven't started on the Friday night beer yet!)

[denverpilot]

The Carlisle F load rated tires are on. No significant fitment problems even though they are slightly bigger than E. Trailer already felt more stable towing it. Also got all five balanced and high-pressure valve stems installed.

The folks who mounted all five shared that the steel spare wheel has a minor bend in it. I doubt this happened driving it 20 miles to have all the tires swapped. They noticed it while balancing. Since it's only been used for that one trip, yet another "not impressed" vote from me on Keystone quality... But since it's epidemic in the RV industry... Oh well.

We'll see how these tires hold up. Feel much better having those original tires off of there. Someone will enjoy them for a lighter trailer, I'm sure. They're headed for Craigslist. :)

[Javi]

Just a note... In recent years anytime I've taken a steel wheel into a "tire house" for mounting and balancing it was "BENT"

I bought a brand new Dodge Ram diesel 3500 and took it directly to the tire shop from the dealer to have better rubber mounted....

yep... you guessed it...

Sir.... Your wheels are slightly bent and we think you need new wheels. I told the young fellow that I bent them on purpose because the truck rode to good... :D Truck had 26 miles on it..

[denverpilot]

Interesting. Considering they don't stock trailer wheels and would have to special order, I didn't get the impression they were up selling. But then again... I didn't *watch* them balance it... ;)