What about this combo?

[Doswheelers]

Truck: 2014 Silverado Crew 1500
GVWR 7200
Payload 1620
Max Trailer 9600
GCWR 15000
Max Tongue 800 1200w/WDH

Trailer1:
Shipping Weight 7016
CC 2834
Hitch 785
Length 31' 8"

Trailer2:
Shipping Weight 6075
CC 1725
Hitch 865
Length 29' 3"

[hankpage]

If you have a short wheelbase truck ... considering the loaded hitch weight and the length of the trailer it may not be the most comfortable towing experience. If long wheel base you should be fine but at your limit. JMHO, Hank .............

[bobbecky]

Looks like you could get overloaded real easy. That trailer can max out at 9850 lbs, which is over the 9600 lbs the truck is rated at.

[Ram189]

Short or long wheel base I would go with a loaded hitch. More stable of a ride.

I agree with the others though you are right on the edge. A load of fresh water or a combo of fresh/black/grey plus other stuff you would normally care and you are right on the edge.

The thing about weight is not pulling the trailer it is stopping the trailer. It is the brakes that will give out before the motor and trans do.

[hankpage]

Short or long wheel base I would go with a loaded hitch. More stable of a ride.

.

Agree on hitch weight .... I mentioned wheelbase in regard to sway from a long trailer.

Trailer #2 you just added looks better. But when loaded payload will still be close.

It appears as if you know the answer already but want someone to talk you into it. :D

[x96mnn]

I have a similar set up to trailer 2. I have been to the scales loaded up and I am leagle, but can tell there is a camper behind me. I can keep speed limits and only notice sway in high winds but have made the choice to keep the trips on short runs, say 250 miles a day as I find it a bit too much on the truck.

[JRTJH]

Truck:
GVWR 7200
Payload 1620
Max Trailer 9600
GCWR 15000Max Tongue 800 1200w/WDH

Trailer1:
Shipping Weight 7016
CC 2834
Hitch 785
Length 31' 8"

Trailer2:
Shipping Weight 6075
CC 1725
Hitch 865
Length 29' 3"



Based on the numbers you listed, I would assume that the tow vehicle you're listing is a Ford F150 Supercrew 145" wheelbase 5.4L engine. Whether it has a 4 speed or 6 speed transmission will depend on the year.

The first thing you need to understand is that the numbers are a "generalized" set of guidelines for the model series. The GVW for "all" F150's in a model year will be listed as 7200 lbs. That includes the base model (lightest) standard equipped truck all the way up to the premium mocel (heaviest) truck in the series. So, it would make sense that the lightest truck would have the biggest payload. So when Ford's marketing division gets ahold of the engineering data and sets the "standard advertising" "LIES", they use the lightest truck to establish "payload" and the heaviest truck to establish "how we sell them" the two are nowhere near the same.... It's similar to all the criteria that you will find listed in any brochure you pick up from a dealer's showroom. The only way to know exactly how any specific truck is rated is to look at the sticker on the driver's doorjamb. It will give you that truck's actual payload and GCWR.

OK, so let's look at the numbers you listed (in red) You list a GVW of 7200 lbs and a GCWR (truck and trailer) of 15000 lbs. If you weigh your truck and find that empty it weighs 5200 lbs, that would mean you could "conceivably" tow a trailer that weighs 9800 lbs. BUT WAIT !!!! The GCWR is the combined weight of the truck, trailer, cargo, passengers, fuel, accessories added to the truck or trailer as well as anything else that might become a component in or on either the truck or trailer....

SO, let's add a wife, 2 kids, a dog, two bikes, a cooler and some firewood to the truck. Wife 150lbs, kids 200lbs, dog 50lbs, bikes 60lbs, cooler 75lbs, firewood 50lbs. (let's assume the truck was weighed empty and now you have a full fuel tank "36 gal) also. Now add that weight "cargo" 585 and "fuel" 252 for a total of 837 additional pounds. That brings the truck weight to 6037. Subtract that from the 15,000 and the max trailer can weigh 8963. That's a far cry from the GCWR rating of 9800lbs or the advertised tow package rating of 9600 lbs.

So, with the trailer you've listed as #1, total weight (empty + cargo) would be 9850 lbs. Calculated tongue weight would be 10-15% of that or 985-1477 lbs.

Trailer #2 would be 7800 lbs total with a calculated tongue weight of 780 - 1170 lbs.

Assume the average tongue weight would be near the middle of each, so trailer #1 would have a probable tongue weight of about 1230 lbs and weigh around 8435 lbs loaded "average". Trailer #2 would have a probable tongue weight of about 975 lbs and weigh around 7500 lbs. Those two probable weights are close to what you'd encounter if you load either trailer with 'about half" of its capacity and distribute the weight evenly in front of and behind the axles to keep the load balanced.

With a 7200 lb GVW, assuming the truck weighs 5600 lbs (GVW-PAYLOAD=WEIGHT) if we add your family and cargo from above (585 lbs) and consider that the manufacturer calculated the fuel weight already, we would have a remaining payload of 1035 lbs with an anticipated tongue weight of 1230 for trailer #1 and 975 for trailer #2.

As you can see, trailer #1 will probably be too heavy for your truck and trailer #2 would "BARELY be light enough". You would realistically have little room for any cargo adjustments or extra guests, extra cargo with either choice.

We haven't considered wheelbase to trailer length. The F150 SCREW short bed is on a 145" wheelbase. Generally, we allow a 20' trailer for the first 110 inches of wheelbase and 1 foot for each 4" after that. So a 145" wheelbase should be OK to tow an RV up to 29'..

We get that by allowing a 20' trailer for the first 110" of wheelbase and 1 foot for each extra 4". That's 145-110=35. There are almost 9 extra 4" segments remaining so there are almost 9 extra feet allowed.

If you select trailer #1, you will be overloading the truck and towing a trailer that's essentially too long, meaning you'll have increased sway and towability problems.

If you select trailer #2, you'll be "right on the cusp" of towing the maximum weight and maximum length trailer. It's a "crapshoot" as to whether it would work or not. There's no margin for error as you're maxing out the truck with that trailer.

I know this is lengthy and probably complicated on "first read" but if you try to digest it, hopefully it will give you the facts you need to realize that the only possible "good choice" is trailer number 2 and it barely fits, depending on how much you want to compromise to tow it in good weather. I'd hesitate to get it out in windy, rainy weather on a busy highway. You'll not enjoy the experience.

[therink]

I would load your truck with passengers (as if camping) and about 500 lbs in the bed to represent fire wood, hitch, bikes, tools, grill or whatever else you would normally load for camping. Then take the truck to a scale to determine what is left of your payload for trailer tongue.
Please factor in that the tongue weight will be between 10 to 13% of the LOADED weight of whatever trailer you choose. If you multiply 13% x the manufacturers GVWR of trailer, the numbers here will tell you if you are within your trucks payload ratings.

[Doswheelers]

Wouldn't the WDH shift some of the tongue weight back to the trailer, thus freeing up some of the payload capacity? Or, is that figured into the numbers above? And would a WDH not help with the sway/trailerability issues noted above for the longer trailer?

[JRTJH]

Wouldn't the WDH shift some of the tongue weight back to the trailer, the freeing up some of the payload capacity? Or, is that figured into the numbers above? And would a WDH not help with the sway/trailerability issues noted above for the longer trailer?

The numbers I used didn't include any allowance for the hitch assembly. The weight of the hitch should also be included in the payload for the truck since it will actually be a part of the tongue weight. That is about 100-150 lbs depending on the hitch selected. Usually the weight distribution hitch will redistribute about 20% (or around that) back onto the trailer axles. That makes the redistribution pretty much a "wash" as far as tow vehicle payload is concerned.

Another thing to consider is that usually the tongue weight of the trailer is added into the GVW of the trailer. Often (especially true with Keystone) is that they will minimize the axles under the trailer and use the tongue weight to make up the difference. Example: Two 3500 lb axles and a GVW of 7800 lbs. They are "counting on" the tongue to carry 800 lbs of the GVW. When you redistribute a significant part of the tongue weight back onto the axles, it is possible to overload them if you're really pushing the trailer GVW right to the max...

[Festus2]

A truck's initial towing capacity has already been set by the manufacturer and can be found in the owner's manual. Different engine sizes and types, transmissions, box lengths and other factors will affect the capacity of the same year and model of truck so there isn't just one "number" for a 2012 F250.

The capacity is affected by any changes or additions you might add such as additional passengers, optional equipment, cargo, etc. that will add to the weight of the truck.

The more "stuff" you have in the base truck - in the cab or in the box - the towing capacity decreases. You can't "free up" the payload/capacity by shifting weight around. You can increase it by reducing the amount of weight you have in the tow vehicle --- leave the dog (and kids --just joking), bikes at home - don't pack anything in the box, etc.

You could, for example, load up your truck as if you were going camping and take it to a weigh scale and weigh it. That is the number you would use in the calculations above. If you go to a scale, you can weigh other "sections" of your complete unit to get a more accurate and complete picture of how much weight is on the hitch, axles, etc.

[TomHaycraft]

Doswheelers, a couple years older, but the same capacities.

You've received many great replies, a lot of good details. I'll cut to the chase and give you a reference point.

I'm at 80% of towing capacity, fully loaded by CAT scales. I do okay towing and the setup is serving its purpose for now. In time, I will trade up to a used 3/4 ton with diesel. Headwinds, any change in elevation and the transmission starts searching, often shifting between 4th and 5th. Your throttle foot soon learns to account for it. Engine temp never increases, transmission temps run in the 190s with occasional peaks to 205.

My acceleration is like a 1/2 loaded semi and I tend to bleed off speed just as they do on the hills. Not difficult to find a good rhythm.

Limitations are strong headwinds (20 to 30 knots) and hills greater than 8%. I have done okay in the hills of Arkansas and Missouri, foothills of the Ozarks. I won't take it to the Colorado Rockies. Here in central Texas I have more opportunities for camping that I can get to. In two weeks, I will drop down into Palo Duro Canyon. I'll try to remember this thread and let you know how it is coming out of the canyon is, couple miles of 6 to 7%, one section that is 10%+.

Tom

[hankpage]

Tom, A glimmer of hope for the OP but I think you will agree that there is a considerable difference between towing a fifth-wheel and a travel trailer. The stability and overall length of the combos definitely favor the 5er.
Enjoy your trip to Palo Duro, it sounds great, especially to us folks in the frozen North. Travel safely, Hank

[TomHaycraft]

Hank, fully agree, point well taken in terms of TT vs 5er.

Early in summer of 2012, DW and I rented a 2009 Springdale 232RBL. The TT's dry weight about 2,000 lb less than the 5er we bought at the end of the summer. It was not an enjoyable experience pulling the TT.

In all fairness, the company who I rented from should be run out of business. Did I mention it was Woody's RV Rentals in Georgetown, TX? No WD hitch (couldn't find the parts on the lot), therefore no sway control and they convinced me the 7-pin would connect to the brakes on the trailer without a brake controller in the cab. Wrong! The reservation for the trailer was set up a couple months in advance and they were aware I was taking it into Arkansas and Missouri. Assuming they knew what they were doing, we headed out on the road. That was a learning experience!

I don't think the engine / transmission had to work quite as hard with the lighter TT as compared to my present 5er, but it was similar. The stability of the TV was quite another story, we did not like the feel at all. Pulling the 5er, very stable. I've been in 30 knot cross winds with gusts higher pulling the 5er, I could feel the wind, I won't lie, but nothing that I would consider white knuckle producing.

I hope this description and experience provides the original poster a bit more with which to make their decisions.

[Doswheelers]

Thanks for all of the informative reply's. In lieu of hooking up a little red wagon loaded with a pup-tent, it looks as though I'm gonna be pushing it somewhere. Most likely running a bit long and with limited payload capacity. With that being said, can I consider a unit with a higher stated hitch weight and lower GVWR if I'm using the 10-13% formula?

[JRTJH]

I'm not sure what you're asking, but the "stated hitch weight" is usually an advertising "gimmick" used in the specs for any given trailer. The "shipping weight" is the weight as it leaves the factory (no propane, no battery, no cargo) and the hitch weight in the specs is usually with empty propane bottles, no battery and no cargo. So in all honesty, the weights in the specs for an RV are not related to how an RV is used or what it will weigh when loaded and hitched to a tow vehicle. The only "guaranteed specific" that you'll find is that the "real weight" is heavier than advertised.

The 10-15% is the recommended hitch weight range that provides the optimal towing capability. That means the least sway, bouncing and best tracking with least amount of "pushing" the tow vehicle from side to side. If you overload your tow vehicle, even staying within the recommended tongue weight percentage will not prevent towing problems.

The best way to determine what you should consider is, as stated, load your tow vehicle with all the people and cargo you will have on an RV trip, go weigh it and see how much it really weighs. Subtract that weight from the truck's GVW and you'll have the "maximum payload remaining that can be used for trailer tongue weight" THEN: Subtract that same weight from the GCWR and you'll have the maximum trailer weight that you can tow. You must stay within BOTH of those weights, they are not “either/or” but both must be followed. So, you can’t tow a trailer that has a tongue weight that’s OK but weighs 1,500 lbs more than the GCWR and you can’t tow a trailer that meets the GCWR but the tongue weight is 500 lbs too heavy. Both are important and both should be independently considered.

Those two numbers, the maximum remaining payload and the maximum trailer weight will then allow you to look for trailers that fit those two weights.

On the trailers you consider. Use the trailer GVW to stay within your max trailer weight and use 10% and 15% of that trailer GVW to determine the range of tongue weights you can expect (depending on how you load the trailer)

Understand that almost any salesman will reassure you with a huge smile that your tow vehicle is "just fine" with most anything they have on the lot. Also understand that his objective is to tell you whatever it takes to separate you from your down payment. Once he has accomplished that, the problem is no longer "his" it's "YOURS" and even if it means you have to buy a new truck, he has still made his commission and he'll be smiling all the way to deposit his check while you scratch your head trying to determine how to finance a new truck just after buying a new trailer......

[STLCG]

First thing to remember all opinions expressed on this forum are just that opinions and the only opinion that matters is yours. That being said here is mine.

Yes you can tow either of these units. I have actually weighed everything that goes in to both my camper and TV. I carry about 500lbs in the truck and at the most 818 in the camper. My normal camper load is closer to 600lbs but if you add bikes and a few other odds and ends it goes to a little over 800lbs. However I do not carry firewood, cast iron skillets, complete tool sets, smoker, turkey deep fryer, bowling balls, free weights, or any of the other stuff you really do not need to take on vacation with you. When I was a child and went on camping trips with my dad he would carry all that crap but I see no need.
I will round up saying you carry a little more than me and use 1000lbs payload in the camper and 600 lbs in the TV. You need to have between 10-15% of total camper weight on the hitch, 12% of 8200 lbs =984. 984+600 lbs gives you a payload of 1584, (36lbs shy of your max). Not a lot of wiggle room but it works. I recommend beefing up you TVs suspension with some sort of aftermarket suspension but it’s not absolutely necessary.

With my camper fully loaded and ready to roll I add about 125lbs to the dry hitch weight. Using the higher to the two hitch wt. you provided that would come to 818+125=943, well below your 1200lbs hitch limit.

I would not base my decision to buy or not based on trailer length and TV wheel base. I know there is some crazy formula tossed around on this forum but I have not been able to verify it anywhere else. I recently upgraded my 26BS-29ft long for a 31SQB-36ft long and was nervous about the increase in length. Before making the deal I looked everywhere to try and confirm that limitation but could not find any proof. So I purchased the 31SQB and could not be happier. My TV is a 2010 F-150 super crew max tow short bed and it handles the 31SQB perfectly. I live in Atlanta GA and the dealer (Lake Shore RV) is in Muskegon MI, 15hr one way drive. I did the deal less than a month ago and after towing both units 15hrs back to back I can honestly say the 31SQB was more stable and was less affected by passing vehicles than the 26BHS.

Hope this helps!! And happy towing!!

[JRTJH]

In response to a previous poster’s statement about, " some crazy formula tossed around on this forum but I have not been able to verify it anywhere else" It's strange that he was unable to find anything regarding wheelbase length and trailer length being important in towing considerations. Here are just a few of the many sites I found by using “Google”...it really is “our friend”. The bottom line is that tow vehicle wheelbase is a major component is vehicle/trailer stability and towing safety.

1. One of the most often used websites for trailer towing recommendations and to teach the “novice” about trailer towing is: “How to Tow Safely - A Complete Guide to Towing “ The wheelbase chart and rationale is on page 18. The author, JD Gallant is a published author of a number of RV "how to" books and is a well respected authority on RVing and RV safety.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slaga.net%2FRV%2FHow%2520to%2 520Tow-version%25202.pdf&ei=IikSU7uIHcT40gGzr4DwCg&usg=AFQjCNG8BFh60b0SUPhqxb4_7otCPMmkrg


2. This site established the known fact that longer wheelbase vehicles are inherently more stable in a towing environment: “Typically, short-wheelbase sport-utility vehicles, such as the Ford Broncos, Dodge Ramchargers and pre-1992 GM Blazers/Jimmys are not as stable as vans, trucks and Suburbans built by the same manufacturers. It's possible to tow successfully with sport-utility vehicles, but they are less forgiving of poor trailer balance and/or improper hitching and sway control” http://www.timberman.com/rig/sway.htm

3. Here is an article that explains in somewhat better (although much longer) terms what I stated about the vehicle wheelbase/trailer length:
Please note that the chart used in this article is the same as that used by JD Gallant.

“How long?
Due to the different characteristics of a fifth wheel trailer, this applies more to a trailer than a fifth wheel.

Why is length such an important factor? Well, it's not really the length of the trailer that is as important as is the size (or wheelbase) of the tow vehicle trying to pull it. The main focus of this is to minimize trailer sway, which in many cases is caused by the wind from either Mother Nature or large vehicles passing you by.

Basically, the longer the wheelbase the better! Think of it as leverage. The longer the trailer, the more leverage it can have on the tow vehicle. The longer the wheelbase of the tow vehicle, the more it can resist the leverage being applied from the trailer. You don't need a crew cab long bed truck to pull a pop-up that could easily be towed by a small SUV. But you don't want to pull a 30' trailer behind that small SUV. You want something longer. But don't get carried away, either. Let's see how it works.

You'll need 2 measurements, the wheelbase of your tow vehicle, and the total length of the trailer you are pulling (or intend to pull). That length is from the coupler to the back bumper.

The First Guideline
(This guideline was first used by the RV Consumers Group rv.org)

For the first 110" of wheelbase, this allows you 20' of trailer.

For each additional 4" of wheelbase, this gets you 1' more of trailer.

Wheelbase / Trailer length
110" = 20'
114" = 21'
118" = 22'
and so on

http://davidsrvtips.blogspot.com/

4. This is a European site, but the physics of towing remain constant regardless of country boundaries. There is a great explanation of how longer wheelbase vehicles provide more stability with trailer towing. Here’s a simple comment about stability: “…remember, you can usually feel though the steering wheel if the tracking is out by more than half a degree, so the lateral push/pull felt in a Short Wheel Base (SWB) vehicle will be more noticeable than a Long Wheel Base (LWB) vehicle. While it will be easier to ‘feel’ the deflection earlier in a short wheel base vehicle, the long wheelbase vehicle will be more stable.” http://caravanchronicles.com/understanding-the-dynamics-of-towing-pt-2/

5. GM in marketing information states this about their Acadia, “Acadia, which is also powered by a 3.6L V-6 and has a longer wheelbase to help stabilize larger trailers, …” http://www.worktruckonline.com/channel/vehicle-research/news/story/2012/05/towing-skills-can-t-be-swayed-on-gmc-crossovers.aspx

Note: The link to RV.org which appears in one of the above comments is to a “members only” website. It is left intact not as a recommended link, but rather as confirmation that yet another “expert website” has used the formula for determining wheelbase/trailer length recommendations.

As to any recommendation for maximum tongue weight as it relates to tow vehicle payload. I recommend that the maximum tongue weight be calculated using the trailer maximum GVW and use 15% of that figure to determine maximum tongue weight. My rationale for using the maximum is that every tow vehicle/trailer combination will tow differently. One must be able to adjust the tongue weight up or down from the “average” or “starting tongue weight” to accommodate any variances in the specific combination. Whatever percentage of tongue weight that seems appropriate to minimize sway in one combination of truck and trailer may be completely inadequate to control sway in another combination. So, if one owner can achieve stability and minimize sway with 10% of his trailer weight on the tongue, there is no relationship to expect that all tow vehicle/trailer combinations will achieve the same results. If the owner calculates his "pre purchase" tongue weight at 10 or 12 or 14% and finds that his rig does not provide the needed stability, he must have the necessary added weight capability to increase the tongue weight to achieve stability. If he has calculated the minimum (to justify a possible “too small tow vehicle”, he has no way to increase tongue weight safely. I always recommend calculating the heaviest weights. That way, there is adaptability if needed. It is seldom wise to use the minimum weights or lengths or vehicle limits to determine vehicle suitability for an "unknown rig". To do so is at best, a conservative guess and more often, the cause of realizing a vehicle is inadequate for the job we "hoped it would do".

[Festus2]

First thing to remember all opinions expressed on this forum are just that opinions and the only opinion that matters is yours. That being said here is mine.

I would not base my decision to buy or not based on trailer length and TV wheel base. I know there is some crazy formula tossed around on this forum but I have not been able to verify it anywhere else. !

While I realize that trailer length and TV wheel base are not the only factors to consider when buying, surely they must be taken into account along with numerous other criteria. If, for example, I was looking at a 35 ft TT and wondering if I should pull it with large, properly equipped SUV with a short wheel base or a truck with a long wheel base, there wouldn't be much doubt as to which TV I would choose.

It just makes sense that a TV with a short wheel base in relation to the length of the TT could present problems. If your TT is "long" and your TV has a "short" wheel base - in relation to the TT - you could be in for an "interesting" ride. Yes, you can take steps to make it less interesting by using a properly set up WD hitch to help reduce sway, etc.

A longer TV wheelbase also improves the tracking and stability and will resist changes of direction by inputs from the hitch.

I believe that the "crazy formula" you referred to is not so much a formula as a guideline and that it suggested, if I remember correctly, that the TV wheelbase be increased by 4 in for each additional foot of TT over a certain length.

While not the only criteria to consider, wheel base and trailer length should be factors to think about.

[STLCG]

Real world experience trumps internet banter any time. There are plenty of examples on this forum of people happily towing rigs that do not fall within the above stated criteria. I am now one of them. I was almost scared off from buying my current TT because of the info floating around on this site but in the end commonsense won out. That “formula” is rather restrictive and I am sure there are plenty of ¾ tons pulling incredibly long 5vrs that are not even close to meeting that standard. Look, the point I am trying to make is that there is a lot of good and bad information floating around. Do your research, crunch the numbers and make the best decision based on factual published information not internet squawk.

[STLCG]

That sure went downhill in a hurry.

[Festus2]

Real world experience trumps internet banter any time. Look, the point I am trying to make is that there is a lot of good and bad information floating around. Do your research, crunch the numbers and make the best decision based on factual published information not internet squawk.

And the point that I am trying to make is that, along with numerous other criteria, trailer (not 5th wheel) length in relation to TV length should be taken into consideration. How much emphasis you want to put on that factor is up to you. You are free to ignore it or consider it. You think it is irrelevant. I disagree.

Doing thorough research, crunching numbers and basing your decision on factual information are crucial. No argument from me there.

However, I hardly think it is fair of you to describe members' opinions about towing and tow vehicles as "internet banter" and "internet squawk". After all, aren't you expressing your opinion? Just because our opinions differ, that doesn't mean that either one of them is "banter or squawk".

Let's call it a day and that we agree to disagree.

[STLCG]

I drive a Ford and have for many years so I cannot speak to Chevy, Dodge or Toyota. No were does Ford list a length limit for trailer towing. Not in an owner’s manual or in its towing guide. Nor does Keystone publish any kind of guide regarding length. I tow a Keystone with a Ford so those are my controlling interest. Furthermore in the current issue of Trailer Life they feature Tundra towing a 36’.11” TT, pretty sure that does not fall within the stated formula.

[Javi]

Real world experience trumps internet banter any time. There are plenty of examples on this forum of people happily towing rigs that do not fall within the above stated criteria. I am now one of them. I was almost scared off from buying my current TT because of the info floating around on this site but in the end commonsense won out. That “formula” is rather restrictive and I am sure there are plenty of ¾ tons pulling incredibly long 5vrs that are not even close to meeting that standard. Look, the point I am trying to make is that there is a lot of good and bad information floating around. Do your research, crunch the numbers and make the best decision based on factual published information not internet squawk.

Well... My real world experience is directly opposite of yours... so my experience cancels yours out..:D

June 1, 2012 purchased a bumper pull 2890RL Passport and tried to pull it with a 2012 F150 145" wheelbase pickup, the combo waggled its butt like a belly dancer and nothing seemed to help. It wasn't sway... the rear of the truck waggled not the trailer. After changing tires, shocks, and hitches the truck still waggled at highway speeds..

Sold the truck at the DW's insistence and bought bigger one... Surprise, surprise stock tires, stock shocks, plain old W/D hitch with a friction sway bar... trailer pulls like a dream and even a passing semi has no effect.

I've worked in the industry when I was much younger and had a gut feeling that the salesman and Ford were lying to me when they said that little light weight, short coupled pickup would pull that trailer and my gut was proven right...

[JRTJH]

Real world experience trumps internet banter any time. There are plenty of examples on this forum of people happily towing rigs that do not fall within the above stated criteria. I am now one of them. I was almost scared off from buying my current TT because of the info floating around on this site but in the end commonsense won out. That “formula” is rather restrictive and I am sure there are plenty of ¾ tons pulling incredibly long 5vrs that are not even close to meeting that standard. Look, the point I am trying to make is that there is a lot of good and bad information floating around. Do your research, crunch the numbers and make the best decision based on factual published information not internet squawk.

The "formula" is intended (per the statements that accompany it) for use with travel trailers. If you had read the source document, you'd have noted that there is a disclaimer which is a part of the table explanation and states that it does not apply to fifth wheels and gives the rationale why they are different.

Also, if you had read the article in reference #4, http://caravanchronicles.com/understanding-the-dynamics-of-towing-pt-2/ you would have seen that the fulcrum created by a travel trailer/hitch is located behind the rear axle of the tow vehicle and the fulcrum in a fifth wheel hitch is created at or within inches of the rear axle. This creates a significant difference in trailer induced sway in the tow vehicle. This sway is dependent upon wheelbase length for dampening when towing a travel trailer but not when towing a fifth wheel.

The point I see you making is that there is good and bad information floating around the internet. We try very hard to keep the information on this forum factual and appropriately "verified" through conventional reference sources, valid internet sources and also through personal experience. I do agree completely with your last statement, "Do your research ... based on factual published information not internet squawk" Your personal experience is one accounting of a successful outcome. It is not verified, published information and as such, falls more into the category of "internet squawk" than in the category of referenced, verified towing data.

For every accounting on this or any other website of successful towing with overloaded or under-rated vehicles there are as many or more accounts of unhappy buyers who were "duped" by the salesman and had to buy a larger tow vehicle, who were unable to satisfactorily tow with the setup they bought and even worse, who had accidents from being overloaded and unable to control their rig when encountering high winds, unanticipated conditions where they couldn't avoid an accident and those who unfortunately destroyed or damaged their rig.

Some people come here looking for us to tell them (either collectively or individually) that they'll be OK with an overloaded or under-rated tow vehicle. It is not the intent of anyone on this forum to force anyone to buy a tow vehicle bigger than they require, but it is also not our intent to carelessly tell a novice seeking advice that they should unequivocally trust their salesman because he's as honest as the day is long.

The facts remain as stated: Payload, GVW, GCWR, vehicle wheelbase, trailer length and intended use all must be considered to arrive at a suitable outcome when matching a tow vehicle and a travel trailer.

And yes, it did go downhill rapidly. Let's get it on the right track by using verified source documents and valid physics based calculations to offer advice, not "I was lucky, you probably will be too"...... That is the "internet squawk" we try to avoid as much as possible.

[STLCG]

I have learned a lot from this forum and greatly appreciate the information that is dispensed. I just get really aggravated when someone asked “can I tow this with a half-ton?” and the instant and predictable response is “No!! Don’t do it you will die!!” Especially when posters start throwing out fire wood and full fresh H2O tanks as definitive reasons why you will be overloaded. Modern day ½ tons are incredible machines that can do so much more than there predecessors. I had a 2003 F-150 super crew and yes if I tried to tow a 31SQB with it we all would have died! The 2010 however handles it like a dream.
My experience are just that mine and unverifiable, same as the guys who say “been there done that, you must upgrade to a ¾ ton.” I am not trying to go after anyone individual just expressing a different point of view based on my personal journey through life and will continue to do so. It is a free country after all.

[JRTJH]

STLGC,

I am probably one of the biggest proponents on this forum in favor of half ton towing. If you go back through the older threads, you'll see that I owned a 2010 F150 FX4 and towed a Springdale 242 fifth wheel. I carefully calculated the anticipated pin weight of that fifth wheel, the payload of the truck with all the options (that's why I didn't get a Lariat, it was too heavy) and special ordered the truck based on my calculations for the weight of the trailer. Through the 3+ years that I owned that rig, we travelled to Kansas, Tennessee, North Carolina, Ohio and back here putting on about 5,000 miles in two long trips and several thousand more miles in short "in-state" trips. Through all of that towing I came to realize that what I anticipated before purchase (remember, I've been doing this for 40 years) was "still valid" but didn't cover all the possibilities. Some of them included camping 30 miles down a dirt road with no available water or firewood, no place to dump the holding tanks when we left and needing a generator (extra weight) and fuel for it in order to stay at the campground without having to make extra trips to town for supplies that we couldn't pack in on the first trip. That's a 60+ mile extra journey. I was "reduced" to not being able to carry 2x8 leveling blocks, had to buy plastic because it was lighter. I couldn't throw my tool box in the back, I had to get a canvas tool bag and carefully select what I needed. I couldn't take along my hydraulic jack for the trailer, I needed the weight for other things. So, I've lived the half ton tow vehicle life. It's not bad and I'd do it again before I give up camping with an RV.

HOWEVER: When we decided to trade in our damaged trailer on a larger, more livable model, along with that came the realization that we would be pushing the payload to the very maximum with the RV alone. That would mean even less leeway than I had with the previous lighter fifth wheel. Could we have towed it? ABSOLUTELY, the 5.4 in a half ton with the max tow package of 11,200 lbs would easily drag the new trailer most anywhere I cared to point the front bumper. With air bags and heavier tires, I wouldn't have been "that far" over my rear end weight limit. But every time I would have hitched it up, I'd have to be calculating what I needed to take out so my DW could put in the things she felt we needed for that particular trip. No chainsaw, no tow chain, no battery cables, no extra battery for the trailer, no generator, no fuel can, no extra propane tank.... You get the idea. With the new 3/4 ton truck, I can indiscriminately throw in whatever I want (within reason), I can fill the water tank and I can safely "bounce down that dirt road" with full holding tanks on the way out without worrying about busting my truck axle which would have been overloaded with the half ton.

I urge you, go look at my previous posts from a couple of years ago. I defended (and still do) the half ton/fifth wheel package against "all comers" be they 3/4 ton or dually in nature. That said, there was then and still is now, a limit to what can be safely towed by any truck, be it a half ton, a 3/4 ton or even a F550. I don't doubt you are able to load and tow your rig safely and stay within the payload and GCWR of your truck. It is a capable half ton. But the fact remains that without careful loading, leaving some things behind, not filling the fresh water tank, not being able to tow with half full gray/black tanks, it's not safely "doable" on all situations. I would hate to be stuck in a campground in the boonies with full holding tanks and know that I either have to tow overloaded and risk my truck's axle/tires or dump my waste on the ground so I'm "OK to tow".....

Some people simply aren't willing to make the accommodations needed to tow a large trailer with a half ton truck and honestly, there's no way to know who is and who isn't willing to make those adjustments or even, for that matter, who understands the need to make accommodations. Even for those who are, do they (if they are novices buying their first RV) even know what towing a trailer feels like or what they want to do in the "unknown future"???

It's safer and much more reliable (valid advice) to stick to the established considerations with someone who is not familiar with towing. Like in learning to fly an airplane, you stay on the glideslope when landing, you dont' come in high and hot and then drop with a quick "power on stall" while you're learning. You save the "added extras" for when you gain the experience and have the "by the seat" feel to know what you're doing. Most people who ask the question, "Can I tow this with my truck?" have little or no "seat time" to relate to doing it "outside the box"...... So, sticking to the known values is not only safer, it's the right thing to do for someone who is learning to RV.

[STLCG]

JRTJH, I just read your above post. At no point in time have I ever encouraged or said it was ok to exceed the published limits of anyone’s TV. My point is the exact opposite; as long as one stays within the published limits of the TV they should be safe and legal. But it comes down to the individual and their ability to handle the situation. Can a 1 ton dually handle a pop-up camper? Sure. Can a one-ton dually driven by my 95 year old grandmother handle a pop-up? Heck no!
I recently read a post by a gentlemen telling a story of how he wrecked and totaled his brand new TT and ¾ TV on icy Michigan roads. He stated how glad he was that he was driving a ¾ ton and not a ½ ton because had he been driving a ½ ton it would have been really bad. Really??? Besides the obvious, death and injury, how could it have been worse? The problem was not the TV but the indivialls inability to handle the conditions. I was in the same conditions towing my brand new 31SQB with a ½ ton on ice covered roads with 35 knot direct crosswinds and made it through. Was it fun? Was it relaxing? Hell no!! But I made it through. Would a ¾ or 1 ton made a difference? Obviously not.
I am not sure were the smooth talking sales guy promising you the world came in the conversation? But again what I said was it’s up to the individual to do the research and make the decision that is best for their families
I am all for open and honest conversation but it has to be honest.

[JRTJH]

It would not productive to discuss this any further. To do so would not be productive.