Fuzion 403 underbelly work

[sbmarks3]

Today I started working on the under belly of my 2009 Fuzion 403 toy hauler. I have a failing black water valve that needs attention. I decided the gas pipe was in the way of removing the coroplast so I removed it, removed the spare tire and it's frame. After unscrewing all of the coroplast from the front to the fuel tank in the rear where it stops, I let it lay on the ground front and rear, in the middle it stayed draped over the three axels. The coroplast is notched around the spring brackets so I could not pull it out with out cutting, which I really don't want to do. There is no visible insulation other than where they cut through the floor for penetrations (wire and water). After seeing the mess and unprotected piping I decided to run some heat trace wiring on the water lines and maybe a little house keeping. An interesting note on the tanks. I have not been able to get any clear information on how many tanks this unit has. Now I know ! It has two grey tanks ( one in the front and one in the middle) It has two fw tanks, (both under the garage) and one black water tank in the front (identical twin to the grey tank beside it). Of course the fuel tank in the very back. No wonder this thing is so heavy I estimate that with the fresh water tanks and fuel tank if full adds about 1400lbs to the trailer. I may put heaters on the black tank while I have it exposed. Has anyone ever tried using heat trace wire to heat tanks rather than using pads? I will try to post some pics as I go.

[Festus2]

You might be interested in this thread currently running on the forum in the Mods & Upgrades section: "Keystone TT 260-RBS Insulation Project" submitted by FullTimer.

[FullTimer]

Good work SB lol. I'm stunned by the weight lol. I had thought of using a heat strip and foil tape it under the tanks, but I didn't want to buy more tapes lol. Plus I wanted the 12 volt pads for dry camping. I did discover one thing about the strips. When I wrapped the 3 inch valve and the grey water pipes, I didn't wrap it tightly enough. The tape got pretty dang hot, I mean hotttt, much hotter than I have ever felt them, when their taped firmly to a hose. So I rewrapped it tightly, and it was fine. So I would assume all the tape has to stay in contact for sure.

[sbmarks3]

I wondered about that, I am worried about wrapping a grey tank valve with heat tape as the grey tanks are empty most of the time. I'm afraid it will get too hot on a dry valve. I will wrap the black water valve for sure, it always has some liquid in it unless I'm doing a valve change out like now.

[sbmarks3]

More pics of shoddy factory work. Large areas left uninsulated with oversized holes for wires and piping.

[FullTimer]

Man, I would sure be tempted to grab me a roll of insulation, and use little 1/4 inch long staples and staple it to the floor, then reattach the coroplast, when I was done working on it. Just let it run under the tanks for added insulation.

[sbmarks3]

Yes I just bought a roll of insulation today. I have a few other things to take care of as well. One of which is to modify the spare tire frame work, it does not quite reach from one frame rail to the other, it is a wonder that I did not loose it on my last trip. So I have some welding to do on it.

[FullTimer]

I think you'll be pleased with the difference extra under insulation makes. Huge difference in how cold the floor is already. Not to mention, how much quieter it is, very little outside noise.

[sbmarks3]

Some notes on lessons learned in the underbelly:
1. 3M spray adhesive does not bond well enough to hold up heat tape.
2. 3M spray adheres to glasses and hair very well.
3. Great Stuff spray foam does not apply very well in the overhead position.
4. Great Stuff spillage always lands on you.
5. An empty and clean black water tank with the valve removed is neither empty nor clean when you push up on the bottom of the tank.
6. Never position your body under the removed valve area of a black water tank.

[geo]

Oh, this brings up nightmares of two years ago! Tank heaters. Rolls and batts of insulation. Fans and ducts to keep the Pex warm. Check my posts and pictures in this section two years ago.

Ron.

[ctpd814]

Some notes on lessons learned in the underbelly:
1. 3M spray adhesive does not bond well enough to hold up heat tape.
2. 3M spray adheres to glasses and hair very well.
3. Great Stuff spray foam does not apply very well in the overhead position.
4. Great Stuff spillage always lands on you.
5. An empty and clean black water tank with the valve removed is neither empty nor clean when you push up on the bottom of the tank.
6. Never position your body under the removed valve area of a black water tank.

This is going in the VERY IMPORTANT Things to Remember File, for future use. (tx)

[byrdr1]

Some notes on lessons learned in the underbelly:
1. 3M spray adhesive does not bond well enough to hold up heat tape.
2. 3M spray adheres to glasses and hair very well.
3. Great Stuff spray foam does not apply very well in the overhead position.
4. Great Stuff spillage always lands on you.
5. An empty and clean black water tank with the valve removed is neither empty nor clean when you push up on the bottom of the tank.
6. Never position your body under the removed valve area of a black water tank.:yawn:


Thats funny right there I dont care who you are!
best of luck finishing up your project.
randy

[sbmarks3]

Geo, I have been checking out yours and other posts. There are a lot of posts with great information. I love this forum, so much great information and a lot of smart people at the ready to help out. I get side tracked a lot though.

[FullTimer]

Some notes on lessons learned in the underbelly:
1. 3M spray adhesive does not bond well enough to hold up heat tape.
2. 3M spray adheres to glasses and hair very well.
3. Great Stuff spray foam does not apply very well in the overhead position.
4. Great Stuff spillage always lands on you.
5. An empty and clean black water tank with the valve removed is neither empty nor clean when you push up on the bottom of the tank.
6. Never position your body under the removed valve area of a black water tank.

Oh man, I have had experiences with 3M spray adhesive. Doesn't matter how hard you try to control it. I assisted a guy changing a valve on a full tank once, it was frozen and he snapped it trying to get it open, He was so embarrassed, even when I warned him what was coming. He braced himself and started to remove screws. Lol, consider it dues paid. I had sewage all over me in 0 degree weather, it does freeze. I walked in the front door and stripped. I told her, don't wash these clothes with anything else. I put them in a garbage bag to control stench. Oh and grabbed the bleach and headed to the shower.

[Mike L123]

Some notes on lessons learned in the underbelly:
1. 3M spray adhesive does not bond well enough to hold up heat tape.
2. 3M spray adheres to glasses and hair very well.
3. Great Stuff spray foam does not apply very well in the overhead position.
4. Great Stuff spillage always lands on you.
5. An empty and clean black water tank with the valve removed is neither empty nor clean when you push up on the bottom of the tank.
6. Never position your body under the removed valve area of a black water tank.

Although it is implied above I just want to emphasize that Great Stuff, when applied from an overhead/lying on the ground sorta position, will often drip onto your head and hair and the only way this is coming off is via momma's clippers and scissors. This is the voice of experience speaking to you!

Happy New Year everyone!

Mike

[ThePressureIsOn]

Thank you for my laugh of the day! Most of us have been in your shoes at one time or another.:)

[WaltBennett]

Love the lessons learned! Got to comment though; if anyone is concerned about what things look like behind walls or in hidden places, don't ever do any serious remodeling in your home. You'll find things just as bad there no matter how 'well' it was built. That includes sloppy wiring, missing insulation, poorly fastened studs & things, etc. I'm not saying this to excuse Keystone or any other RV manufacturer, but they're in business to make a profit. That means following schedules, taking shortcuts, lower cost labor & materials, etc., etc.

I started my underbelly journey after driving through a heavy rainstorm and finding water pouring out from the front part (under the basement) after stopping. Turned out the chloroplast hadn't been installed with heavy enough aluminum strips to hold it to the frame. Dropped the front part and had all sorts of shavings, wood chips, a couple screws and whatever all fall out (missed my face by a foot or so). I used sheet foam insulation cut to fit instead of foam though, but didn't need an awful lot as there wasn't much room anyway. Not a lot of wiring and no plumbing, but I'm planning on working back this spring and I know I'll find lots of things to fix then.

[sbmarks3]

Walt, you are right about what you don't see behind the walls being pretty messy sometimes. Over all, the wires were not terribly tangled, I was surprised to see so much pex plumbing in the lower basement away from heat.
Mike, You hit the nail on the head about the great stuff, I kept it out of my hair this time but it was all over my hands. The can says to use acetone for uncured spills and to basically live with it for any that cures on your skin. I tried my home remedy for removing dried paint from skin. Vaseline, coat your hands with it liberally and work at it with your fingernails until it breaks loose. Then soap and water.

When replacing the black water valve I found a large paper towel lodged in the valve's grove, that explains the constant dripping. We also were have some trouble trying to get a good dump on that tank, even after adding lots of water, it would take several tries to get it done. I replaced the Bristol valve only, not the cable. On the work bench I removed and the old cable and re-installed on the new valve, lubed up the cable with silicone and thought I was ready to install in TT when I noticed the valve did not have enough travel to fully open. Between the paper towel and the valve not fully opening I think that was my problem, also the valve was difficult to operated due to age. The fix for this is to relocate the small plastic block that the cable passes through and anchors to. It is has a single screw that connect it to the valve housing. Just remove the screw, open the valve fully then replace the screw, it will self tap into the new location. In my case it was approximately 5/16" over.
So lessons learned #7: Cable pull valves should be adjusted to insure they have the travel to fully open.
Happy New Year

[rjsurfer]

Would sheet foam have enough rigidity to support itself across the frame of my Cougar?

Obviously the Coroplast can, but certainly droops a bit.

I was thinking of using sections of sheet foam instead of the Coroplast, this way if I need to do work under the camper I would just drop the section needed to gain access. I guess I could use some external cross members if needed.

Thanks

Ron W.

[sbmarks3]

Would sheet foam have enough rigidity to support itself across the frame of my Cougar?

Obviously the Coroplast can, but certainly droops a bit.

I was thinking of using sections of sheet foam instead of the Coroplast, this way if I need to do work under the camper I would just drop the section needed to gain access. I guess I could use some external cross members if needed.

Thanks

Ron W.

I think I would be a little leery of relying on the foam to support itself from frame rail to frame rail with out the coroplast, as I don't think it is designed for structural. If you used thick enough foam it might work but the problem there is if your Cougar is built like my Fuzion, in the tank areas there is not enough clearance for more than about 1/2" to 3/4". My coroplast sags as well but there was only center support screws installed for the coroplast in two locations, I am planning on using 1/4" double hard sided foam board from frame web to frame web, this will support the ends as for the bellying it will lay on the coroplast but I will screw the belly up into the cross member supports. The cross members are fairly narrow and a challenge to locate with coroplast covering them but I feel with some careful lay out and maybe probing with an ice pick, sharp wire or an awl they can be found. The extra foam board material I will cut to fit vertically in the frame web. I am working on this project now, weather permitting. I think there were some other members that have installed external angle iron supports to mitigate coroplast sag. Good luck

[JRTJH]

Would sheet foam have enough rigidity to support itself across the frame of my Cougar?

Obviously the Coroplast can, but certainly droops a bit.

I was thinking of using sections of sheet foam instead of the Coroplast, this way if I need to do work under the camper I would just drop the section needed to gain access. I guess I could use some external cross members if needed.

Thanks

Ron W.

Foam board does not have the strength to screw the ends into the frame rails like the coroplast. It will not support itself unless there is some structural component under it to keep it in place. I installed 3/4" and 1" foam board in my Springdale, then covered the entire belly with coroplast. We towed well over 3,000 miles like that and never had any issue. I would not suggest towing anywhere if you rely on the foam board to support itself. It isn't strong enough to stay in place without a covering to support it.

[rjsurfer]

Thanks guys, what you both make some good points about the sagging problem with using just board type insulation.

Obviously external bracing, and keeping the Coroplast is the way to go.

Ron W.

[sbmarks3]

Closing up the belly. This is a lot harder than it looks. Installed R13 rolled fiberglass on the ceiling of the basement, Installed 1/2" hard board foam above the coroplast supported on the flanges of the frame beam. Where I had clearance to do so I glued a second layer of foam board to the first. Three separate heat tape circuits in place, one for the black, one for the water lines and the third covers one grey tank, grey line to the valve and both fresh water tanks. Putting coroplast back in place in this cold weather is not easy but nearly done. The heat tape circuits all terminate in the upper utility area where they will have their own 20amp breaker. I am also installing a can light in the storage area that will be thermostat controlled, 60 watt bulb for heat in the cargo side, the can side is in the utility area where it will provide some heat, but I may install a light fixture for that side as well. I am sore and tired of being under that trailer, especially climbing between the top of the axels and the bottom of the trailer.
Stay warm out there.

[FullTimer]

Nice job! You'll love the extra insulation. Yup, I was sore too lol. Two things I have noticed about mine already, less cycling of the heat and a whole lot less outside noise. Money well spent!

[sbmarks3]

While working on the under belly I did some repair and modifications to the spare tire rack which is under the trailer. The spare is lifted in place with a cable on a spool like on a pickup truck. A previous owner over tightened this cable and bent the metal bracket. I removed and repaired with some flat bar and some welding, I also extended the carrier so that it would reach the trailer frame. The trailer has two light weight pieces of box tubing welded to the inside of the frame, that is what the carrier screwed into.
I never trusted that little cable so I added a couple long carriage bolts welded to a piece of flat bar, the bolts extend down though the spare tires bolt holes and then are double nutted. I used to wrap a motorcycle tie down strap around it as a secondary safety.

[HurtinAlbertan]

Some notes on lessons learned in the underbelly:
1. 3M spray adhesive does not bond well enough to hold up heat tape.
2. 3M spray adheres to glasses and hair very well.
3. Great Stuff spray foam does not apply very well in the overhead position.
4. Great Stuff spillage always lands on you.
5. An empty and clean black water tank with the valve removed is neither empty nor clean when you push up on the bottom of the tank.
6. Never position your body under the removed valve area of a black water tank.



LOL. Poor, poor you. I'm laughing, but i sure can sympathize...

[Steve T]

Some notes on lessons learned in the underbelly:
1. 3M spray adhesive does not bond well enough to hold up heat tape.
2. 3M spray adheres to glasses and hair very well.
3. Great Stuff spray foam does not apply very well in the overhead position.
4. Great Stuff spillage always lands on you.
5. An empty and clean black water tank with the valve removed is neither empty nor clean when you push up on the bottom of the tank.
6. Never position your body under the removed valve area of a black water tank.

Thanks for the heads up. I will be replacing my grey and Black valves in the next week or two. I think my grey valve is leaking so I figured and hope they are close to each other. Might as well replace both since i'm already there. I removed the blocking behind the water inlet area yesterday and found the valves are on the other side of the rig but I could not see it. So now i have to remove the underbelly to get to them. Wish I could find a service manual for my 2009 Keystone Montana, 3465SA but all I ever see is the owners manual and it is no help at all doing anything.

[Poppy's 5th Wheel]

Thanks for the heads up. I will be replacing my grey and Black valves in the next week or two. I think my grey valve is leaking so I figured and hope they are close to each other. Might as well replace both since i'm already there. I removed the blocking behind the water inlet area yesterday and found the valves are on the other side of the rig but I could not see it. So now i have to remove the underbelly to get to them. Wish I could find a service manual for my 2009 Keystone Montana, 3465SA but all I ever see is the owners manual and it is no help at all doing anything.

Different trailers but some of these pictures may help. I just replaced my black tank (and the valve) and did some other work under the trailer. This link has all the pictures so many will not apply but it will at least give you an idea of what's going on under there. If your gray and black tanks are side-by-side, as mine were, you will find it a real PIA to replace the sliding valve mechanisms. Both tanks need to move to give room to take out the valve and put them back in. There isn't much flex in the system..

Good luck
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/blown96ws6/slideshow/Trailer%20underbelly%20holding%20tank%20repair

[Festus2]

I get a Photobucket error saying that the page does not exist when I clicked on the link in your post.

[Poppy's 5th Wheel]

I get a Photobucket error saying that the page does not exist when I clicked on the link in your post.

Should be working now.

[Jager]

Poppy, First, thanks for posting your photos. Big help for anyone who ever has to do this.

Next, do you know how or why your tank failed? It looks to have a pretty large crack in the corner of it. These tanks should last forever I would think. I really don't know how they'd ever wear out. Your camper doesn't appear to be that old either. I'm just not getting it . . . unless something hit it to cause the crack.

[chuckster57]

Should be working now.


Not working for me.

[Poppy's 5th Wheel]

Poppy, First, thanks for posting your photos. Big help for anyone who ever has to do this.

Next, do you know how or why your tank failed? It looks to have a pretty large crack in the corner of it. These tanks should last forever I would think. I really don't know how they'd ever wear out. Your camper doesn't appear to be that old either. I'm just not getting it . . . unless something hit it to cause the crack.

I believe it must have been a manufacturer defect. Maybe a problem in the molding process? The trailer is 2 1/2 years old, bought it new. No way anything can make contact with it without leaving some kind of obvious indication on the coroplast and there was absolutely nothing :banghead:

Not working for me.

Sorry Chuckster, I tried again and it works for me. May be try copying the link into a new browser and go that way?

[JRTJH]

Poppy,

When you were disassembling the tank (s), did you encounter any "under tank straps" or bracing? From what I could envision at the factory, all of the newer trailers are being manufactured with tanks that sit inside the upper frame rails and are supported by the flange around the top of the tank. In other words, it appeared that they are "floating" in the underbelly space with nothing under them to support the weight of the tank.

Is this what you saw when working on your underbelly?

[Poppy's 5th Wheel]

Poppy,

When you were disassembling the tank (s), did you encounter any "under tank straps" or bracing? From what I could envision at the factory, all of the newer trailers are being manufactured with tanks that sit inside the upper frame rails and are supported by the flange around the top of the tank. In other words, it appeared that they are "floating" in the underbelly space with nothing under them to support the weight of the tank.

Is this what you saw when working on your underbelly?

Absolutely, there are cross supports on the fresh water tank but nothing under the black and gray tanks. The black and gray tanks have a "flange" around them (as you describe) that are about 1 - 1/2". Those flanges are resting on the I-Beam frame on one side and a support brace on the other side. I found the supports to be a little far away from the tank body so when I re-installed them, I actually drilled new holes and moved those supports a little closer to the tank bodies than the factory had them (both black and gray tanks). I honestly don't know if that will make any difference or if it had anything to do with the failure but ?

[Wes Tausend]

Different trailers but some of these pictures may help. I just replaced my black tank (and the valve) and did some other work under the trailer. This link has all the pictures so many will not apply but it will at least give you an idea of what's going on under there. If your gray and black tanks are side-by-side, as mine were, you will find it a real PIA to replace the sliding valve mechanisms. Both tanks need to move to give room to take out the valve and put them back in. There isn't much flex in the system..

Good luck
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/blown96ws6/slideshow/Trailer%20underbelly%20holding%20tank%20repair

Paul,

Thanks to you and sbmarks3 for the photos.

I found the same lack of flex in my sewer system. The slide valves were squeezed slightly to one side in the space between the gray & black tanks as you say. To solve the "tight-quarter problem" and make it easier to replace the valves in the future, I permanently sawed a 1-1/2" section out of the longer 4" drain from the black tank. The extra room allows the flat valve centers to drop out when unbolted now and I only replace that center wear part.

I replaced the missing pipe section with a common 4" rubber waste sleeve from my local hardware store. It fastens with ordinary aviation hose clamps which are included. They work well. After 20 years, my main house sewer still uses one where I replaced the in-house portion cast iron sanitary sewer outlet with PVC to add a couple more bathrooms, laundry and furnace room floor drains during a major remodel. The rubber house coupler resides just under the foundation where it connects the new PVC system to the old cast iron as it leaves the house. I also trust that the RV rubber coupler will not come loose in my RV from travel and it absorbs flex to help protect the tank.

I also added support straps under the black tank after the original flexing failure. I determined a main reason these tanks tend to fail... thin spots... and I describe an in-place repair procedure. I posted more about it on this Keystone.org thread here (http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showpost.php?p=144386&postcount=9).

Wes
...

[jtyphoid]

+1 on the rubber coupler. I went that route due to tight quarters on my Raptor.