All the talk of broken frames and pin boxes is scaring me off

[Malfar]

Was just about ready to buy a 2006 276RL and then started reading about all the problems with the poor quality frames they are sitting on. Thinking this may not be a smart pirchase.

mf

[Festus2]

Was just about ready to buy a 2006 276RL and then started reading about all the problems with the poor quality frames they are sitting on. Thinking this may not be a smart pirchase.

mf

The problems with poor quality frames that only a very small percentage of members have had issues with should not deter you from purchasing an RV.

There are far more members who have not had any frame problems with their units and have not seen any need to mention this on the forum. What you are reading are the posts of an extremely small number of members who have had issues.

Personally, I would not base my decision on an issue that is not prevalent or indicative of the vast majority of people who have had zero frame issues.

[Ken / Claudia]

It might be a good reason to go under the trailer and look. Also inspect the roof, windows, doors well everything real good and see for yourself what condition the trailer is in. Get someone who knows how to inspect a RV besides the seller.

[SAABDOCTOR]

HI Get some one who knows rv's if you do not have the experiance. Go over the the whole unit top to bottom. frame issues are not a common problem like festus said. Good luck on your quest. We have had no frame issues with any of the three Keystones we have owned.:cool:

[JRTJH]

Malfar,

Welcome to the forum. As stated, frame problems are not really a big issue with a lot of RV's. There are some problems, but they don't seem to be found in a significant number of RV's. Remember that Lippert makes almost all the frames for the RV industry (except some high end companies), so you're going to get the same frame whether you buy from Keystone or some other manufacturer.

Buying a previously owned RV, one that's already 8 years old is potentially an issue. You really have no way of knowing how the previous owner used (or abused) the RV and whether there are any problems with the coach or with the frame. Unless you're well versed in RV inspection and have the ability to thoroughly inspect the RV, as suggested, I'd seriously consider hiring someone that is reliable and knows what to look for. Paying them a couple hundred dollars to do a good inspection may seem like a lot of money, but if they find anything seriously wrong, imagine the money you'd save by not being stuck with someone else's problems. And, even if they don't find anything wrong, you'll have the confidence that you are buying a "trouble-free" RV and will have the report from them with what issues are present. That is a good bargaining tool when negotiations begin and will give you a list of what repairs/maintenance you need to do after you buy.

[Bob Landry]

Malfar,

Welcome to the forum. As stated, frame problems are not really a big issue with a lot of RV's. There are some problems, but they don't seem to be found in a significant number of RV's. Remember that Lippert makes almost all the frames for the RV industry (except some high end companies), so you're going to get the same frame whether you buy from Keystone or some other manufacturer.

Buying a previously owned RV, one that's already 8 years old is potentially an issue. You really have no way of knowing how the previous owner used (or abused) the RV and whether there are any problems with the coach or with the frame. Unless you're well versed in RV inspection and have the ability to thoroughly inspect the RV, as suggested, I'd seriously consider hiring someone that is reliable and knows what to look for. Paying them a couple hundred dollars to do a good inspection may seem like a lot of money, but if they find anything seriously wrong, imagine the money you'd save by not being stuck with someone else's problems. And, even if they don't find anything wrong, you'll have the confidence that you are buying a "trouble-free" RV and will have the report from them with what issues are present. That is a good bargaining tool when negotiations begin and will give you a list of what repairs/maintenance you need to do after you buy.

This a universal and highly recommended practice in the marine industry. An accredited surveyor, AKA appraiser is commissioned to do a through inspection of every system and submits a detailed report on the entire condition of the boat being surveyed and that report is usually used as a negotiating tool. Credibility is added by the fact that the surveyor has no affiliation with buyer, seller, lending institution, or repair shop and depending on the competence of the surveyor, the boat is represented for what it really is. They do only inspections and do not issue estimates like an insurance adjuster would. They will discuss a range of prices that they feel is relevant to the repairs needed, but this is in no way binding on anyone, only opinion based on the surveyor's experience. Also, a bank will often require one to be done before granting a loan, especially a larger loan and it is almost always required by an insurance company before underwriting a policy. I think there would be a market for this type of business in the RV industry. Cost for a survey of a boat of average length would run in the $200-300 range, and compared to what it might disclose, can be quite valuable. I think that would also be a reasonable range to pay for a RV inspection by a competent, unbiased technician. Now, finding a competent unbiased technician could present a problem, but that's another discussion.

[theeyres]

If you are somebody that knows about frames and welds check your rig and give it a thumbs up it should be no problem. If a 2006 hasn't developed frame problems by now I can't imagine why it would in the future. Don't let the few negative reports scare you off.

[Malfar]

Spent the better part of an hour talking with Transport Can, about the incident investigation they have had ongoing for the last two years in response to owner complaints about failing pinboxes in Cougars. ( separate investigation also ongoing into FR Wildcats. Not reassuring, Don't think l will be gambling gambling on either one. Seems the only way to be sure failure isn't imminent is to pull open the front for an inspection.

[Festus2]

Malfar -
In your 1 hour conversation with Transport Canada, did you come away with any details about its investigation into failing Cougar pin boxes? Do you know if or when T.C. will be making its findings public?

As an owner of a Cougar 5th wheel, I am very interested in this investigation and what they have found so far. I didn't realize that any such investigation was being carried out or the extent of the apparent problem about failing pin boxes.

Anything you learned from your conversation would be, I am sure, of interest to a lot of Cougar 5th wheel members here on the forum!

[Brantlaker]

The DW and I just came back from a 7,800 mile trip out West and at this time have over 15,000 miles of towing on our 2012 Cougar. I have checked the Pin Box and the frame around it with a Fiber Optic Bore Scope and have seen no problem, there is no evidence of any cracking or bending of the components at all. Most of the time when something like this happens it is because there was a bad run of frame materials or poor welding.

[Ken / Claudia]

If it was a problem we would see utubes and other shots of the trailers with pinboxs failed and causeing crashs etc. And recalls here in the US. Is they any? If I was the guy I would not buy any RV because the tires could fail.

[JRTJH]

As stated earlier, Lippert builds the frames for all of Keystone's products. Lippert also builds all of the frames for Forest River, Holiday Rambler, KZ, and nearly all the other RV manufacturers. So, to think that Keystone "COUGAR" line is the "only one with problems" and to think the others are "trouble free" is either selective thinking, wishful thinking or believing that somehow, someone at the Cougar assembly line is breaking the frames as they roll down the line.

You can't take an apple and make it into an orange by painting it a different color, the insides are still going to be the same..... Fifth wheels are the same way. Whether it's Cougar, Flagstaff, Wildcat, Fuzion or any other brand, the frame for a specific size fifth wheel is the same, built on the same line, by the same welders, with the same steel stock and painted with the same "baked on powder coat finish." There may be different outriggers, different axles or different pin boxes, but the frames are the same size rails, same construction and welding on the over-bed box and the same crossmembers, welded by the same welders using the same equipment on the same Lippert line.

Sure, there are frame failures, and the number of frame failures per 1000 is essentially the same in all the product lines. I just bought a Cougar fifth wheel and I'm no more worried about it than I was about my Springdale. I'd be just as worried (or not worried) if it were a Forest River product or another competetor's product.

There's no data to support an increased "Cougar" frame failure rate in any of the NHTSA sites that I've searched and there's no data to support an increased failure rate in any of the safety or apprasial sites that I've seen.

If anyone has any data to support a failure rate, please provide the source. All I've found so far is allegations from someone who talked to someone who said they heard that...... That kind of data is so unreliable that it probably belongs in the black tank rather than the gray tank. Anyone have any substantiated facts and a source to verify them ?

[2011 keystone]

Troll!!!!!!

[Malfar]

What I learned from Transport Canada was that they have documented a high frame/pin box failure in Cougars and Wildcats ( this is not hearsay as one poster suggests). TC says there are NO construction standards for them to enforce ( the ony legal requirements are for brakes,lights etc) so there is really nothing they can do about the failures. Manufacturing trailers is pretty much an unregulated industry. mhey haven't identified a safety hazard as there have been no catastrophic failures ( involving accidents or injuries). As they explained even with failure trailers aren't detaching and careening down the highway - rather they are ending up sitting on the box of the truck or with the pin box pushed up through the bedroom floor ( not really spectacular enough for a U-tube video, although if you search the internet you will find pictures}. As well contrary to other opinions all trailer frames aren't created equally - Lippert doesn't build the frame to their specs nor is the same frame used by all manufacturers, frames are built to the specs of the trailer manufacturer - when the manufacturer specs it out with minimum materials, combined with the poor quality welding that is being observed, higher failure rates are observed. When the failure issue is raised with the trailer manufacturer they direct investigators to the frame manufacturer, who responds that they are only building to to trailer manufacturers specs and nobody will take responsiblity. The lack of any construciton standardsfor trailers - unlike Class A's for example which are on MV frames - only exacerbates the problem. ( would that explain the one year warranties on trailers that cost more than many cars }. There is no way to know the condition of the frame in the pin box area and the investigator I spoke with suggested that if buying a used one, I might want to have the front pulled to inspect the frame/welds. And these failures are not spread equally over all brands of trailers - failure in Cougars and Wildcats has bee documented to be higher.

[mguay]

Just curious..... When you spoke to TC...did they mention how many investigations they have going on 5ers without broken frame/pinboxes?

9 out of 10 people are more likely to complain about something than praise it!

[jsmith948]

You know......If I felt/thought as do you, I would NEVER buy an RV of any make or model. JMHO....FWIW:yawn:

[JRTJH]

What I learned from Transport Canada was that they have documented a high frame/pin box failure in Cougars and Wildcats ( this is not hearsay as one poster suggests)...

So, it's not "Cougar has more frame failures" Rather it's one of Keystone's products and one of Forest River's products seem to have increased failure rates..... "Cougars and Wildcats"

What are the failure rates per 100 (or 1000) units produced? Are the failures similar? are they in different areas of the pinbox? are they in specific years of production? specific models?

Your observation (or your reported observation) is like saying, "Ford trucks have a frame failure rate higher than other manufacturers (but Dodge has some also). I wouldn't buy a Ford because the frames break." My question to you would be, "Which Ford Trucks and which Dodge trucks are breaking?"

Additionally, I suggested that if you're looking at a used RV, it would benefit you to get an experienced RV technician to inspect it before you buy. That recommendation was also suggested by other members.

I'd sure like to have access to the data at TC or at least know which models and what years they are finding "issues" with. There is absolutely no way that "every model and every year of Cougar or Wildcat" is having problems or TC and its US counterpart would be publishing warnings for consumers. Does TC have any published data or available "unpublished" data to support their verbal claims?

[Festus2]

JRTJH -

After having a quick look at Transport Canada's website, it appears as though an "Active Defect Investigation" was initiated in October of 2011 as a result of complaints submitted by Cougar and Forest River Wildcat 5th wheel owners regarding crack(s) in pin boxes.

I wasn't able to access any details of the investigation but that may be due to my inability to navigate through the government site or it is not available on line to the public. When I have more time, I'll go back and try again to see if I can find any specifics.

The file number of the investigation is 3280-10-43 and it is categorized as an "Active Defect Investigation".

TC's website for this issue is:

www.tc.gc.ca/eng/motorvehiclesafety/safevehicles-defectinvestigations-information-active-1239.htm

Unless you can get access to their findings - in writing - I doubt whether or not any of the questions you asked above can be properly answered.

I didn't bother phoning Transport Canada, but if you have nothing better to do today, and don't mind putting up with bureaucracy ---- go for it. They have a toll-free number which is only good in Canada but they can also be reached at: 819-994-3328.

Lots of luck!

[Ken / Claudia]

Every thing that is powered, pulled, pushed, carried that is a vehicle of some kind is regulated by safety laws. Maybe not the welds he is conerned about but, the are regulated. My RV is RVIA and Oregon RV compiance safety checked. My boat is Coast Guard, my motor vehicles are DOT, my home is etc. etc. Get my point at least here all customer goods have regulations and more on things used in public spaces. If I thought that is a REAL problem, I would reseach to see how many 5rs have been made and how many complaints/lawsiuts have been filed with keystone reagrding pin box/frame failures.

[JRTJH]

Festus2,

In the interest of maintaining accurate information on the forum, I looked at the TC website you posted and I did get to the two studies listed. That's as far as I could get online, the links keep repeating back to the same area (even though they show a PDF that's 6Kb in size).

The toll free number is "in Canada only" and the international charges to call from Michigan aren't quite in my budget. Maybe someone in Canada could use the toll free number and see if there's any documentation available????

As for specifics, if I posted on the forum: "There have been reports of fires in theaters, the fire safety office is investigating. I'm not going to a theater any more." It would hold as much validity as saying, "There have been reports of pinboxes breaking in Cougar fifth wheels, TC is investigating this. I'm not buying a Cougar."

I'm sure (no, I'm positive) that investigation bodies in both our governments get hundreds or thousands of complaints every year about failures in all kinds of vehicles. Like any other departmental agency, they are obligated to CYA by opening an investigation. The fact that there's an open investigation (incidentally that is two years old) showing no action would indicate that either there's not a significant problem or that there's little priority placed on it.

There was (is) in the TC chart, immediately following the two consecutive investigative report numbers on broken pin boxes, three reports on Tire Valve Stem Failure in Mitsubishi, Chrysler and GM products. I'm willing to bet that not one of us is going to "rush out and check our valve stems" .....

I can't find the urgency in the posts regarding pinbox failure that would motivate all of us to stop using/stop buying a Cougar or Wildcat. To me, it's much the same as "rushing for cover" because Chicken Little is yelling, "The sky is falling, the sky is falling."

If there's documentation, then let's address the issue, otherwise, like Chicken Little, why should we even look up?

[Festus2]

Ken -

I am wondering if Lippert, for example, when they design and build their RV frames, has to comply with any government regulations or whether they are built to the specifications that are set out by Keystone? When an RV carries the RVIA and any other state "safety" sticker, what does that really mean and what standards does the RV have to meet before it gets the RVIA seal of approval? I can't imagine that they have government or other safety inspectors looking at every component and stationed at Keystone's assembly plant to ensure that it meets a certain safety requirement.

Does Keystone and other RV manufacturers have to comply with certain government safety regulations? Are there minimum standards that have to be met? Do the metal frames have to meet certain specifications with respect to load bearing capacity? welds? thickness and type of steel frame? Does the RV industry regulate itself and set its own standards?

So what exactly are the safety standards when it comes to an RV? How much regulation and oversight are happening in this industry? I'm not talking about towing weights and limits but the actual construction of the unit's major structural and weight-bearing components - frame, suspension, axle, wheels and tires.

I believe that Malfar's fears about pin boxes are generally unproven and unfounded; however, he may have a legitimate concern when hearing that Transport Canada is unable to enforce any construction standards when none apparently exist. My question would then be, "Does the RV industry have construction standards that it must meet?"

For my own education, I would like to find out more factual information about this topic so if anyone can steer me in the right direction or enlighten me --- I'd appreciate hearing from you.

And like JRTJH said, I am not going to run and hide. Last time I looked, the sky is still up there. And the toll free number? Sorry JRTJH, I'm not that bored at the moment.

[JRTJH]

Festus2,

For at least the last 5 years I've been trying to get my hands on a complete document from RVIA which details the requirements manufacturers must comply with to attach the RVIA sticker to the side of their products (and charge us $135+ at last purchase). All I've ever been able to find is an offer to "purchase the current guidelines" for the tidy sum of $800.

The RV technician course taught by RVIA affiliate centers "gives" each candidate for certification a copy of the guidebook, but I don't have the "luxury" of enrolling in a course in Indiana, which is the nearest I can find.

I'm sure that RVIA has some "great requirements" that much be followed, but I'm also sure that there are some that simply don't reflect "sanity" in the build process.... Take for example, the requirement to have an overhead smoke detector within 10 feet all every heat producing appliance. That's why all of us "CURSE" the smoke detector every time we use the stovetop in our RV.

I've searched the NHTSA website for pinbox failure, recreational vehicle fifth wheel failure, travel trailer frame failure and then I did a detailed search for all years of Keystone products. The only two open investigations are possible glass breakeage of shower stalls and possible undervehicle wiring problems.

There are 8 complaints that are documented: Goodyear tires, IOTA transfer switch (x3), Reese 16K hitch, Dometic refrigerator and "wheel loss on several occasions by the same operator. There also is one complaint in 2003 regarding "noxious fumes in the interior"

There are also two "service bulletins, one for "tail gater repair" and one for the "slide out supplemental breaker"

I can find no action from NHTSA regarding pinbox failure in Keystone products that has been investigated, recalled or issued a service bulletin. There is no action by TC as well.

While I can't say there is "NO" documentation regarding pinbox failure, we've had members complain of problems with welds on pinboxes. Researching the past posts on this forum, there have been issues with 2 Outbacks, 2 Cougars, Sprinter, and Copper Canyon. There were two reports included in the above problems where the owners stated they were using gooseneck adapters.

There's no way for me to do any meta-analysis with the limited information available, but if we use the "guesstimate" of half our membership (11,000) owning fifth wheels, that would be about 5500 fifth wheels with a failure of 6 pinboxes for a failure rate of about 0.001%. That calculation is HIGHLY SUSPICIOUS and probably low as there is no confirmation that half the membership owns fifth wheels nor that all the pinbox failures have been reported in the forum. So, there's little "meat" in the numbers, but I'd still not worry about looking up as Chicken Little screams.... I'd seriously be much more concerned with blown tires, wheel bearing wear, brake failure or even light bulbs burning out than with pinbox failure.

I'd wager that in February when I pull mine out of the pole barn to head to warmer weather, as cold as it will be, I'll spend just enough time under my fifth wheel pinbox to make sure it's connected to the truck and the umbilical is plugged in before we start towing. I will, however, check the tire pressure before we tow and the brakes as we're pulling out of the drive..... :p

[Festus2]

JRTJH -

So, let me see if I have this right ........

1) Yes, there are requirements and standards set out by the RVIA but no one knows, except a select few, exactly what these standards are.
2) The RVIA, for some reason, does not want this information to become public. Is this similar to the secrecy surrounding Keystone's closely guarded electrical and plumbing schematics?
3) The chances of any one of us having a defective pin box are slim or none.
4) Ignore all screaming by Chicken Little.
5) Come Springtime, dewinterize and head south.

I am left to wonder if the coveted RVIA sticker is held in higher esteem than the Keystone's Polar Package sticker??

[JRTJH]

So, let me see if I have this right ........

1) Yes, there are requirements and standards set out by the RVIA but no one knows, except a select few, exactly what these standards are.
That's pretty much my "take" on things. I've been trying to get a copy of the RVIA requirements for years, I've got a couple of sections, but they are, at best, outdated by now. KanTC told me about a year ago that she had found a link to the entire book online at some seminar, but the link was dead when we tried it. My "best guess" is that if the general public was thoroughly familiar with the RVIA guidelines, it would make some of the service we receive "suspect" at best and for that reason, the dealerships and manufacturers don't want the information available to the general public.

2) The RVIA, for some reason, does not want this information to become public. Is this similar to the secrecy surrounding Keystone's closely guarded electrical and plumbing schematics?
I'm thinking that the answer to that is a "generally yes"

3) The chances of any one of us having a defective pin box are slim or none.
That's my take. I'd say that it's significantly less than a 1% failure rate. Probably closer to 1:>500. But I wouldn't "dare the thing to fail" :D

4) Ignore all screaming by Chicken Little.
Chicken who???????

5) Come Springtime, dewinterize and head south.
If I could, I wouldn't even wait until "springtime" After plowing snow today, I'm ready to head south already. However, there's two "equal votes" in that decision and the "other controlling interest" has flatly said, "NOT YET!!!" sooooooo :banghead:

I am left to wonder if the coveted RVIA sticker is held in higher esteem than the Keystone's Polar Package sticker?

I'd say that both stickers are worth their weight in gold.... FOOL'S GOLD THAT IS .........

[Bob Landry]

In my humble opinion, the RVIA sticker is irrelevant and is indicative of nothing because in spite of it being plastered on the side of the trailers, all of them leave the factory with the same problems and poor workmanship regardless of price point or manufacturer.
The Polar/Arctic stickers have been discussed here adnauseum and all that has been determined is that there is supposed to be a 2" heat duct routed so that it warms the tanks during heater operation. Some of us have never found it, others have but were unable to quantify the effectiveness of it.

All of this makes for some interesting dialogue, but the reality is, if we continue to buy these trailers, we should resolve ourselves that there is going to be a lot of ongoing repairs. It's just part of the game.

[Roller4Tan]

X2 Bob :eek:

[Ken / Claudia]

Festus, I do not what/how/who does inspections. I am going to guess that it may involve the builder who has to use approved building methods and materials than tell or show the inspectors what they did. Thinking about the frames, Keystone would need to follow approved type, size, shape, welds etc. for the weight or style of a trailer. I could be wrong.