Lets Talk "Black Ice"

[Yosemitebob]

I did a search, I did not find anything directly dealing with something I'm apprehensive about. Given that any of us could suddenly find ourself sliding on black ice, with our trailer, what do we do? For those who don't know what it is, :confused:black ice (clear ice) is what is formed on the roadway in freezing weather usually at early morning, but can be other times, like in area that are shaded from the sun in mountains. It is a layer of ice that you sometimes can't pick out on the highway. This can be very dangerous, when I was a boy, I remember driving the family international truck on a road in North Dakota, I lost complete control and was in a ditch in seconds. So why did I bring this up you might ask?
How do we drive, or should drive, around black ice (clear ice). What do we do when we find ourself on or in this situation. I don't know the answer to this and I'm hoping to get some helpful suggestions.

[Ron]

I have pulled trailers all my life, from small to large, bumper pulls and goose necks. If you ever get into a situation where you are sliding sideways, weather it is the trailer, tv, or both, reach down, grab the brake controller manual lever, and lock up the trailer brakes, it will straighten you right out, it is what I call (Jerk You Straight) the direction your heading is the direction you will straighten out to. I have used this method several times, even if the trailer starts whipping in side winds on dry roads, this is the best and safest method to keep you straight going down the road.

I know you will different opinions on this topic, I have semis pulling equipment trailers and also pull with pickup trucks, all works the same no matter how big or small. Always make sure you trailer brakes are in good working order at all times, also get a good feel where the controller is located in case you need it at a moments notice...

[Ken / Claudia]

I have hit some while pulling my boat to go duck hunting. I just get off the gas peddle and tried to steer thru it. I used nealy all 4 lanes and did not crash but, would have if any other traffic was nearby. I was told to apply trailer brakes only as already said but, never hit ice with a RV. I think their are many times that a crash will happen no matter what you do because of other traffic, speed, width of road, grades, curves etc. I do know from seeing it every winter DO NOT STAND ON TRUCKS BRAKES, that just sends you out of control. Good timely question

[davidjsimons]

I have pulled trailers all my life, from small to large, bumper pulls and goose necks. If you ever get into a situation where you are sliding sideways, weather it is the trailer, tv, or both, reach down and lock up the trailer brakes, it will straighten you right out, it is what I call (Jerk You Straight.) I have used this method several times, even if the trailer starts whipping in side winds on dry roads, this is the best and safest method to keep you straight going down the road.

I know you will different opinions on this topic, I have semis pulling equipment trailers and also pull with pickup trucks, all works the same no matter how big or small. Always make sure you trailer brakes are in good working order at all times, also get a good feel where the controller is located in case you need it at a moments notice...

100% agree with this advice. I've done this before myself.


2013 Cougar 28 RBS
2012 Ram 3500 Dually
6.7 Cummins H.O.
4.10 rears.

[Yosemitebob]

Thanks for the reply's(tx), I figure it's winter time and not a bad thing to know. Although I live in Southern California, I'm traveling to eastern Washington next month.
Again, thanks guys

[LittleJoe]

Might add... DO NOT USE CRUISE if on slippery roads . If on ice get off powe(r but not enough to decelerate . ) and apply as little directional change as possible( tire grip at a premium, don't brake it loose) steady as she goes. Above all DO NOT PANIC. Neutral and trailer brakes are your friend. Learn to hold power delivery so that you are not applying any but neither are you decelerating more than very gently.

[Yosemitebob]

Might add.. Neutral and trailer brakes are your friend. Learn to hold power delivery so that you are not applying any but neither are you decelerating more than very gently.

LittleJoe, I understand all you said except NEUTRAL......are your friend. Just what are you meaning by neutral? I have always understood never to go to neutral while moving.

[Festus2]

Yosemitebob -

Another way to reduce the likelihood of having to drive where black ice might occur, is to not drive before the sun comes up or after it goes down. When the temperatures start to drop in the evening, any snow that may have been on the roads and melted during the day, now starts to freeze. Same thing with wet roads during the day. At sunset, the water freezes and you are now looking at black ice.

At least in the interior of WA where you are heading it is fairly dry and the probability of precipitation is quite low so the roads in general are fairly dry. That region doesn't get large accumulations of snow but what little falls will remain .

Also, during the daytime, the highways crews may be out in greater numbers sanding and salting areas that might become or are slippery.

Paying close attention to weather reports and road conditions will help you in making decisions about driving to your destination.

[Ken / Claudia]

In Oregon the DOT guys in the passes and mountains go to 12 hour shifts with 24/7 coverage.

[Yosemitebob]

Thank you all, really great suggestions, I will keep a watchful eye, and listen as well. I'm really excited about this trip, getting ready now even.

[LittleJoe]

Guess by neutral I was thinking (clutch in). Also more car related in that area.

If you remove all power if in a slide (no acceleration or deceleration,) point being to allow tires to grip if at all possible with the least amount of stress applied to grip.

I grew up driving on all manner of ice incl frozen lakes and rivers.
You need to know (test) your vehicle and how it will react in these circumstances. Learn what needs to be done to control it BEFORE you are in a emergency situation. Stay calm, do not panic, you are in control. If you panic, what ever chance you had is left only to fate.

When on icy roads , you need to be one with the vehicle so you can feel, hear a slip before it barely gets started or gets too far to regain control. This for me means, NO distractions , no radio, no talking, complete and constant concentration.
I would far rather drive on ice than in dense fog or whiteout conditions.

[Ken / Claudia]

Some more stuff we where taught. If driving when it could go from water to ice and you have traffic ahead of you. Watch them, if they slide, alot or alittle they hit ice and you will soon hit same. Also watch their tires for road spray. If the tires are tossing up water, likely wet road, when they stop spraying water that could mean your now on ice. We learned were the over passes/bridges are and would get off the gas peddle before crossing to prevent a spin out. Slowly back on gas after. In case they had spots of ice.

[Lost]

In the winter here I make it a habit to Know the local weather conditions of the route i'm taking. The road conditions can change drastically from mile to mile especially if your in mountainous terrain. If I know the roads are icy then I don't drive... It's just to dangerous. I have gotten caught in too many Ice storms were the temp is so cold that the salt wouldn't melt the ice and the roads literally become a skating rink and that's traveling at 5mph.

[rhagfo]

Guess by neutral I was thinking (clutch in). Also more car related in that area.

If you remove all power if in a slide (no acceleration or deceleration,) point being to allow tires to grip if at all possible with the least amount of stress applied to grip.

I grew up driving on all manner of ice incl frozen lakes and rivers.
You need to know (test) your vehicle and how it will react in these circumstances. Learn what needs to be done to control it BEFORE you are in a emergency situation. Stay calm, do not panic, you are in control. If you panic, what ever chance you had is left only to fate.

When on icy roads , you need to be one with the vehicle so you can feel, hear a slip before it barely gets started or gets too far to regain control. This for me means, NO distractions , no radio, no talking, complete and constant concentration.
I would far rather drive on ice than in dense fog or whiteout conditions.

LOL "you need to be one with the vehicle"!

Now days most expect the Vehicle to save them and handle the situation for them!!

LittleJoe, your post is 100% spot on! I recall way too long a go, coming down a slope on a highway, and let up on the throttle, the rear-end started to come around, I depressed the clutch and straighten right out.

Driving in bad road conditions demands driving correctly for those conditions, and being aware of how your vehicle is reacting. Now days car ad show cars driving at speed in snow and ice to tout "traction control" features, those only work up to the limits of the laws of Physics!!

[Yosemitebob]

Little Joe, and others, thanks for your reply. This has been a very informative thread. But in the case of automatics, I think one would only let off the gas, but as for pushing the clutch in when on ice, I did not know that. Yes, very informative.

(tx)

[JRTJH]

Just after the Eisenhower Tunnel opened in the early '70's, we were going from Denver to Steamboat Springs elk hunting. It was just before Thanksgiving and the ground was snowcovered, but the roads were fairly well clear and dry on the east slope. We entered the tunnel with clear skies and dry roads and exited about 5 minutes later on the western slope to iced roads, and near blizzard conditions. I stopped at the exit and put chains on the truck rear wheels and decided I'd take it slow and easy into Silverthorne. I "reasoned" that if I made it off the mountain, I'd be OK.

I-70 and the tunnel were still under construction and the eastbound lanes were about 50' lower than the westbound lanes. There were no guard rails installed yet, and the only "barrier" over the side was yellow sawhorses with smudge pots. In the first curve out of the parking lot, going about 10 or 15 MPH, we hit black ice and started to slide toward the edge. I tapped the brake controller hand lever and the trailer tires instantly locked up and the trailer started sliding toward the edge. I started trying desperately to avoid sliding that direction and applied a little power to the truck as we were sideways in the road. That moved us toward the mountain and away from the slope between the roadways. We completed that spin and half of another one, finally ending up pointed up the mountain toward the tunnel and sitting on the shoulder about 20' from the edge of the slope. I learned during that incident that any braking of the trailer will likely cause the trailer to lose traction and once it's out of control, all you have is whatever traction you can get with the truck.

I'm a firm believer that had I not put chains on the back axle, we'd have kept sliding toward the slope and who knows where we'd have ended that spin. That was back "before trucks had seatbelts" and when child seats were the ones that slid under the main seatback and had a plastic steering wheel mounted on the front tray.

Thankfully we were all three OK. We made it down the mountain, and very VERY slowly made our way to Steamboat Springs. We had been trying to avoid Berthod and Rabbit Ears passes, and I later heard that both of them were clear and dry the entire day.

To this day, I "fear" an encounter with black ice (or any ice for that matter) and believe that the best way to maneuver though it is to not make any unnecessary corrections in steering and try to maintain a constant torque on the drive wheels. Any lateral input from trying to slow the trailer will likely cause the truck rear wheels to lose traction and then it's "Katie bar the door" until you can get the rig stopped.

[Festus2]

For anyone who is interested in finding out more information about driving on ice, I came across this website which you might want to visit: www.icyroadsafety.com

I thought I would pass on a few things I gleaned from reading:

1) For black ice (or "clear" ice) NO speeds are safe. You can lose control at 10 mph just as easily as driving at 30 mph.

2) Since this kind of ice is invisible, it is an extremely dangerous road condition and one that no one is really prepared for.

3) Over 460 drivers die each year as a result of hazardous, icy road conditions in the US.

4) While chains, studded tires (where legal) may help somewhat, once the slide begins, you are pretty much out of control.

5) The type of tire, its quality or brand make no difference. All weather tires, because of their softness and tread, do better on compact snow but offer little, if any, traction on ice.

6) Driver experience and training makes only a very small difference once you find yourself sliding. While it is easy to say.."Don't panic or make any sudden adjustments. Just steer in the direction of the slide" and other similar pointers, our brains just don't normally operate that way.

7) Black ice, clear ice ... whatever you want to call it, is "lurking" out there. You don't know it's there. You can't see it or sense it. In that respect when you suddenly find yourself on a stretch of black ice, you are totally unprepared for the situation you find yourself in.

Because of these factors, I am not sure whether or not it is possible, when you start to feel yourself skidding helplessly out of control, to " feel as one with the vehicle" as one poster suggested. In my case, I think the vehicle and my mind set would be world's apart!

Move over JRTJH and let me join you in fearing any encounter with ice - especially with an RV in tow. If you do find yourself sliding out of control and you and your vehicle come away unhurt and undamaged, consider yourself very fortunate.

[rhagfo]

The one thing that needs to be stated, is that "Black Ice" is most hazardous right at freezing! It isn't so much the ice, Ice at 25 degrees or less is fairly (too a point) "sticky" than at 33 to 30 degrees.

The real issue with black is is not the ice it's self, it is the moisture on it that hasn't frozen yet. Now you have ice with a very good lubricant on it which equals about a zero coefficient of friction.

[Yosemitebob]

Festus2, that is a whole lot of info to digest, the link you left led to other links with equally good information. I was not always a So California guy, I grew up in North Dakota. However, that does not make me an expert in any form. It still worries me that I might run into this ice, but I've learned a lot from both this site and links provided and some past experience. I plan on taking three days if necessary to reach Pasco from So Cal. I have gotten some contacts here on the site that offered some weather details as I go, much appreciated, and the rest is keeping a good eye on the current weather and conditions where I am. Oh, I will get there, but if it takes longer, I'm ready for that as well.

Lots of good information here, I hope others read and learn as I have.(tx)

Thank you all for your input, but feel free to keep it coming.:)

I have already decided that if Shasta has snow, and it's all the way to Weed and beyond - I'll head for the coast. It will take longer but that's OK and I could always go above I-84 and get out of the wind for the most part.

[Festus2]

Yosemitebob -

Here's wishing you and your family a very safe trip. You've taken every precaution to ensure that it will be as risk-free as possible so in that sense there isn't much more you can do.

Travel safely and enjoy the time with your daughter.

[JRTJH]

Yosemitebob,

You mentioned heading to the coast to stay out of ice. That may be a very good idea, it will sure make the trip less hazardous for the biggest part of the mileage, but remember that it only takes 60 feet of ice to make the entire rig one big slippery mass of RV/TV heading in different directions. Please take it easy and never let your "guard up" as you make this trip. Miles and miles of "good road" followed by a couple feet of ice is just as unsafe as miles and miles of icy roads. Best to you and yours and wishes for a safe and enjoyable trip.

[BOWWOW]

One way to decide if there is black ice present is to drive over the ZIP STRIP, if you don't hear it it's probably full of ice.

[Desert185]

My wife, who grew up in AK, hates and fears "black ice". As a pilot, I call it clear ice. Regardless of what it is called, it is best to avoid the condition, so we watch the outside air temperature when in the car, watch the spray coming off the tires of other cars and avoid traveling when conditions are ideal for clear ice on the roadway. This is especially true when hauling a trailer.

I'm no expert, but this is what we do. Go later in the day, be careful of curves in the shadow of the sun, downhills and temps in the range of 29-34dF seem to be the worst conditions. We plan to be off the road when darkness arrives and the temperatures get into the "danger range", i.e. avoidance seems to be the best option.

It helps to have an AWD car or putting the 4WD in 4H. It helps with slowing/braking and maintaining control while accelerating. Put some weight in the back of the truck, and I don't mean a couple of sand bags. Two wheel drive pickups with no LSD and empty beds are the worst thing to drive in icy conditions.

This is an old thread, that is being renewed in a seasonally timely manner. Perhaps reviewing cold weather operations, like we do at the airlines at the beginning of every winter season, would be a positive reminder to get folks thinking about the coming changing conditions.

[JRTJH]

If I remember correctly, last year we had two members destroy their rigs on ice while towing. That's two too many, and hopefully this year we won't have any losses. Driving defensively, staying alert and anticipating what's ahead as well as simply getting off the road when conditions are "ripe for trouble" will go further than anything else at keeping the almost 15 thousand of us safe through the winter months.

[allmi01]

Since I was one of them, I'll chime in. The rig wasn't destroyed but banged up bad. 25 weeks in the shop so I missed most of this years camping season.

In my specific case, I knew it was black ice conditions, 25 degrees F, night (about midnight) after a major snow event and lots of road salt. Driving at 40 MPH and still being extremely careful, things happen.

If you can avoid traveling in these conditions, please do so. Its the only sure way to prevent issues.

Hopefully someone can learn from my mistakes.

Mike

[Festus2]

Earlier on in this thread, I included the following link: www.icyroadsafety.com
Since icy road conditions will soon be upon many of us, taking a few minutes to review it will be time well spent.

A good reminder this time of year.

[Yosemitebob]

Yes indeed, sense I just received word we are headed to Washington during the holiday season again this year, I shall take the time to review this thread once again. Last year i saw some real fascinating types of weather including black ice and one where the fog freezes on everything it touches, the name escapes me at the present. I kept an eye on the outside temperature at all times, even had a buzzer that warned me of freezing temps. It took me three days each way, but we were not in a hurry anyway. However, I really did enjoy that trip.

Fetus2 your link made a great read last year, and no doubt it will again this year.

[GMcKenzie]

one where the fog freezes on everything it touches, the name escapes me at the present.

Always just called it Ice Fog. Ran into it one January outside of Medicine Hat, AB. Not nice at all as the windshield just froze over and all the heat couldn't do a thing.

[Yosemitebob]

Always just called it Ice Fog. Ran into it one January outside of Medicine Hat, AB. Not nice at all as the windshield just froze over and all the heat couldn't do a thing.

That's it, duh, and I couldn't remember that (tx), It lasted about three days, I just stayed put. Sure is quite a phenomena, beautiful to say the least.