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Tac
11-11-2013, 01:13 PM
Hello everybody

As the title shows, i'm a german.

We are passionate campers, since the last 15 years. And now its time to change our travel trailer. (Its hard to leave a family member)
So we look around on the german market for a new or new-used one.
But the space inside is always pretty limited in cause of the 98inch maximum exterior width. And slideouts are really not normal here in europe. So we decide to look over the big pond and see what is there.
At our last holiday a few meters away was an elderly pair which had a really hugh 45feet fifth wheel on a regular 18t prime mover.
We had a little conversation and the man said, they would never do it again and buy a fifth wheel without any deeper information. They just bought the biggest fifth wheel they found and shipped it to germany. After they had it here, they couldn't find a suitable towing vehicle for their normal car licenses, so they needed to buy the regular scania prime mover, and make a truck license. And now he drives the RV combination and his wife drives their car behind to keep them mobile at the places. Of course a normal prime mover is just to big to move around.

But a US fifth wheel with its slideouts etc would be really nice, we think.
Of course we don't want to make the same misstakes.

What we need is a 2+2 concept and we think the Montana High Country 343RL would fit us really good.
And all prices in the usa are really cheap for us here in germany.
For example, a 25feet travel trailer with good features and options here in germany is around 65000$. And the Volkswagen Passat Variant TDI we are driving had a listprice of about 75000$.
And we have the 7715lbs GVWR hardcap for vehicles. If its lighter, its a car, if its heavier, its a truck, with all of its negativ effects. Speedlimit, road permissions, limited driving time per day, etc.

So i went to our TÜV and see what we can do and what we can do not.
And we found a solution.
We have to find a towing vehicle, which need this properties.
First: As light as possible, for the payload.
Second: It must have a empty weight (curb weight?) with all options, liquids and features under 6900lbs. We have the hardcap of 7715lbs minus ~800lbs for 4 passengers. Than i can limit it to the 7715lbs GVWR and get a registration as a car.
Third: It should handle the 343RL. GVWR of the towing vehicle, doesn't matter this time, because we, the TÜV and i, have found a trick. A Vehicle can get multiple registrations here in germany. The first registration would be car without road permissions, speedlimits etc. The second registration would be a RV. The RV can be heavier than 7715lbs, has no driving time regulation and no normal road permissions, it just has a speedlimit, but a trailer towing vehicle has the same speedlimit.
So, if i attach the Fifth wheel to the towing vehicle the hole combination is one RV. If i detach the Fifth wheel, the towing vehicle is a car again.
But towing vehicle and fifth wheel must have a connected braking system, hydraulic or air.

The german overengineering is sometimes really hard to beat.

And the towing vehicle should not be much longer than 236inch, because of the driveability on german streets and in german towns. Its all a little bit smaller than in the usa.

What would be a good towing vehicle under this conditions. 2+2 Seating, 6900lbs empty weight, and 236inch length?

Of course a have already searched for one. A F150 SuperCap 6 3/4 Box Ecoboost with HD Payload package (4800lbs rear axle) and max. Trailertow package would matches good. I can increase the GVWR here in germany from 8200lbs to ~8500lbs. But can it tow the 343RL?


And i have some other questions about the 343RL.
Has it Discbrakes? Drumbrakes are not street legal in germany anymore.
Is it possible to convert it to 17.5inch rims? The 235/80R16E are not buyable in germany. Tires in this dimensions don't have a Loadindex of 3042lbs like the E rated tires.
What is the loaded hitch weight of the 343RL?
Has the 343RL a special point on its roof for a autotracking satelitedish and Solarcells?
Acept Keystone specialorders? It would be much easier for us, if keystone could directly built in a german electricity. Normal 230V 50Hz 16A. And electricity inlet 400V 50Hz 32A 3-phase-current.

Hope you can help me a little bit or more.

Greetings

Tac

cabinfever
11-11-2013, 02:15 PM
:USA: Welcome to the site. After reading your post I'm thinking moving to the US may be the simplest answer! Seriously though, I'm sure there are a few very intelligent people here who will be able to answer your questions.

Tac
11-11-2013, 02:49 PM
Hm, moving to the USA? Okay, if you have a 75000 $/year job with full and payable healthinsurance and retirement fund for me. :D

billb800si
11-11-2013, 03:36 PM
Hm, moving to the USA? Okay, if you have a 75000 $/year job with full and payable healthinsurance and retirement fund for me. :D
====================

Why sure- don't ya know- our streets are paved with gold.
America- the land of opportunity... :) :D ;)

Pmedic4
11-11-2013, 04:00 PM
Just looking at the raw numbers, it may not work. The Montana HC has a GCVR of about 12,000 pounds, which puts it over the listed sizes of the Ford F-150 Supercab 4x2 HD which shows 11,300 as it's maximum towing capacity. You might have to go to a F-250, which may give you the capability to tow 12,000 pounds. Hitch weight of 1790 would be under the maximum payload of 2800 given for the truck plus your 2+2 passengers.

Size of the truck at 236", I know from my experiences in driving in Germany, I didn't have enough room driving a rental Mercedes 'A' class. But, hopefully you'd know where your going, and not try those small winding village roads. Stuttgart maybe, Boeblingen/Sindelfingen definitely not. It's difficult to find the empty weight of the truck, but they will be right around 7500 to 8000 pounds for most trucks.

The one primary issue I see you mention is the braking of the Tow vehicle and the RV. They typically are not connected hydraulically or by air as, RV's are typically electrical brakes, ran by the 12 volts of the truck and I'm not sure that is acceptable for the legal towing requirements you describe.

Festus2
11-11-2013, 04:56 PM
Tac -
Personally, I would not want to tow a 5th wheel of that size/weight with anything less than a 3/4T (F250 or 2500). It's just too much for a 1/2T truck to tow it safely. The braking system on Keystone RV's is electric so that would be problematic for you as well as finding a unit with disc brakes as opposed to drum.

In addition, Keystone's "special orders" would not include any deviation from 110VAC to the European voltage/current that you would require. The conversion from 110VAC to 230V would be something that you would have to do yourself. You realize of course that all of the standard and included appliances run off 110VAC which would also have to be replaced. With all of the adaptions and conversions that you would have to do to make this work, the attractiveness of the North American price might soon disappear.

Your plan, in theory, sounds great but there are many obstacles to overcome which make it very challenging to say the least.

Good luck with your efforts.

Tac
11-11-2013, 05:16 PM
First. Is it okay for you, if i will write all measures in our metric system or would you all prefer it, if i translate them into your imperial system?

And OMG I forgot one absolutly important fact. The Vehicle must be 4x4. I can't register it as a car if it tows a trailer with more the 7715lbs GVWR and is only 4x2.

MB A Class to big? Its a small car, even in germany. I'm driving a Passat which is only a little bit smaller than a E Class. Its okay.

The towing vehicle should not be bigger than a MB Sprinter (Dodge Sprinter) which is ~236"-255" long. But shorter is better.

The F250 could be too heavy for the job. Remember. I need a empty weight that must be so low, that me and my passengers have enough payload to sit in the vehicle, before it reaches 7715lbs.
The F250 with Supercab and 6 3/4 Box as 4x4 has a curb weight (what means curb weight?) of 6625lbs. But what is the empty weight (with all fluids and full gastank) as a fully loaded Lariat?

I have the chance to adjust the vehicle figures a little bit.
Vehicles who are not regulary imported by the manufacturer has no general permits.
This means, if i import a F150 by myself for example and this truck has a 4050lbs front axle and a 4800lbs rear axle, it is rated in the USA at 8200lbs. Here i can go to our TÜV and he looks on the figures and can rise the GVWR because the axles, brakes, rims and tires give him a little bit space. Normaly the brakes are the limiting fact on US vehicles here in germany. They are always a little bit small. So, if i would buy this F150 with additional aftermarket 20" rims and 275/55R20 LI117 tires, i could built in the Bear-Brake Upgradekit and this give the TÜV space to rise the GVWR to ~8500lbs and the towrating maybe to 12000lbs.
And the german rules said only one thing. If you have connected brakes the GVWR of the trailer can be 1,5x GVWR of towing vehicle.

Nothing is chiseled in stone here. This is the advantage of the german overengineering. There is always room for improvment. Rising the GVWR is a daily business for the TÜV. Only the technical properties must be given.
And the money :(

But to make a vehicle lighter than it is, is just and only a option provided by god.

The brakes could be the problem.
The brakepower must be given by the towing vehicle.
Regulary we have a compressor that provide the brakeair and she is given by to airlanes to the trailer and work directly on the calipers.
But a hydraulic brakesystem is possible too. In 2 ways.
1st a direct tube between towing vehicle and trailer. Is not often used because its difficult to make, expensive and somekind of slippery.
2nd is the electric to hydraulic system. We need 2 wires between the vehicles. One wire for the 12V supply for the hydraulic pump in the trailer who provides the pressure and one wire for the braking signal. (Maybe this can also be provided by one wire, i don't know, must ask the TÜV)
Is the second way not the US E2H-way? At least i found several P'n'P kits for E2H brake conversion.
The brakepower to the calipers must be given by oil or air. A pure electric actuator is not allowed, because of overheating the brakes.
The only thing every connected brakesystem must do, is to full lock the trailer brakes if the connection is terminated. For example if the trailer detaches by himself on a bump or something like this. This should minimize the damage to others.


@Festus2
Thats the fact. A complet conversion with all devices here in germany, which don't run on 12V, will cost properly 10000$ or more, if i have to change the wires. I don't know what all runs on 110V. A fridge with locks in this size will properly be around 1500-2000$. The 2 AC's at least 3000-4000$. And a gas/electric 3,7gal boiler would be at ~1000$. And than, i have the devices for the trashcan, because noone will buy them here in europe. Or, i buy many 230V to 120V converter.
Thats why i ask. If Keystone would give me the option to convert the hole electricsystem with devices to european 230V during the assembly would make it much much much easier.
But, to have a 36ft and 11inch RV with a living space of 36ft and 11inch is just a really really beautifull idea. And if i look on compareable vehicles of european manufactures and what they cost, the idea is even more beautifull. I don't have the money to spend 175000-250000$ for a german, handmade fifth wheel. Even when it has marble on the floor.

Ken / Claudia
11-11-2013, 06:00 PM
My listed vehicle on here is 7800 lbs with full fuel load 38 gal and 2 adults. I had a F-250 4x4 crew cab short box V10 engine it was 8300lbs with alot of gear in it. Thoose weights were seen at the truck scales. Lenght of them, I do not know. It would be listed on ford web sites.

Tac
11-11-2013, 06:27 PM
6.8l V10?

So i had to estimate something around 7300-7400lbs for a F250 Supercab short box without passengers, right?

Pmedic4
11-11-2013, 06:28 PM
MB A Class to big? Its a small car, even in germany.

It's not the size of the car that's important, ( I drive a RAM 2500 in the US), but how narrow some of the old streets in are in Germany! At best I would look like I'm playing bumper cars in my truck.

If you could do the brake conversion you spoke of, that would be the best as there is a 12V power feed and also the 12V brake line.

For power, what do the RVs in Germany use for a converter/inverter? With the costs you mention for appliances it would almost seem you could find some Transformer/converter to change the 220V 50hz to 110V 60hz and put in place for the power feed to the appliances? Then you'd still need to change the outlets to Germany standard, and the question becomes what gauge of wire is required above the US standard for wiring.

By the way, it would seem fun to "Caravan" in Germany. I've seen several locations in my travels, and right next to the hotel where I'd stay is this business:
Caravaning Center Schmidtmeier eK
Mahdentalstrasse 72, Sindelfingen

Interesting to see German versions of RV's.

Tac
11-11-2013, 07:05 PM
I have a normal comercial truck license. So vehicle measurements are not my problem. So believe me, nearly all street are made for 100" wide vehicles. But you are right. In some cases you need balls (is this the right proword for this?)

Of course its easy to buy a converter. 230V to 120V permapower converter are buyable between 80-8000W. 850W will cost ~200$. Don't know what a fridge need. The AC must be changed.
I can tell you the cross section. 230V 16A 1,5-2.5mm^2, 400V 32A 4mm^2. 2.5mm^2 should be 0,035" and 4mm^2 should be 0,044" diameter.


The money you have, the camping you get. :D
But it must be funny for you in which small tincans some travel. 196x89" is one of our smallest regular buyable up to date caravan. The biggest is 441x100". But here we talk about 140000$ for the biggest one.
And the Motorhomes. Everthing from a small lightduty boxcar to a 39feet 26tons Class A with 3 slideouts for 2500000$.

P.S.
Germany is much more the Bavaria and Baden Wuerttemberg. Like the USA is more than Texas.

Ken / Claudia
11-11-2013, 08:21 PM
Your right on the engine. The weight without my gear is only a guess 7600-7800. The fuel tank on the short box is 26 gal. Not many here use a 1/2 ton for larger 5th wheels due to overweight, underpowered. The payloads they can carry is limited with the wheels/tires, axles etc. The bigger trucks have bigger engines also.

Tac
11-12-2013, 03:47 AM
Underpowered is relativ. A combination of this kind made in germany would normaly be towed by a VW Amarok or a mini prime mover built on a VW T5/Crafter or MB Sprinter. And they all have a diesel with around 180HP and 330lbf ft. Even the light duty commercials with 16500lbs GVWR have only 150-180HP.

Everything with more than 7715lbs or is towing something is limited to 50mph on every street, even on the autobahn. A little overspeeding to 56mph is normal and everyone with those vehicles drive it.

So the Ecoboost or the 6.2l V8 provide exclusiv towingpower.

Has someone a wiringplan for the 343RL with voltages?

Pmedic4
11-12-2013, 07:54 AM
You probably found one of the biggest complaints about RV's in the US, and that is there is no details provided for the wiring, or plumbing also. As the purchaser, you have to discover on your own how they built your RV.

I've traveled a little outside of Bavaria and the 'Wild South', but unfortunately when your working, well, they kind of expect you to be there. Which is why I think it would be fun to do some RV'ing in Germany, especially up in the north where I haven't been. One of my favorite places is Rothenburg ob der Tauber, and of course Heidelberg, but your right I didn't get much outside of
Bavaria or Baden-Württemberg.

Perhaps when I retire in a year or two, I'll come visit my friends and we can have a Hefe together.

Tac
11-12-2013, 08:28 AM
A Hefe? URGS, UAHHHH, IHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. Taste a real beer and drink pilsner. Best Koenigs Pilsner. Or if you want it a little more spicy, taste Alt, Diebels for example. Or if you like harsh beers, taste Karlsberg.
I have to send my US relatives 2 bottles every year :D
And when they come over, the first day the women had to drive, because the men are a little bit "funny" :D
If you cross the white sausage equator to north, you will get a little culture shock. And do you like our fuelprices? :D
I live in the lower rhine area. And in a diameter of about 15-20miles it has several campinggrounds here. Included the biggest campingground in hole germany. Nearly 15000 people camp there.


I have hoped, that some electric gifted people made their own wiringplans by looking into their RV's.
Here in germany you get every technical sheet if you ask the manufacturer. Calling Keystone was not really effectiv in that case.

I have called a US Car importer near by. He said, a F250 Lariat with Supercab, ShortBox and 6.2 V8 will have a empty weight of about 7000-7100lbs. This could match. A F250 with a Diesel is to heavy.

Did anyone know how to convert the 343RL to 17.5" Rims/Wheels? 215/75R17.5 with a LI of 134 are buyable here and not too expensive.

I have read something about an axle issue on Keystone fifth wheels. What was the problem?

Where is the gastank in the 343RL?

Which devices run on 12V and which on 120V?

jtyphoid
11-12-2013, 09:43 AM
Quite a few appliances use 12V DC and/or propane, like the lights, most refrigerators, water heater, stove, oven, and furnace. The ones that require 120V A/C are typically the air conditioner, microwave, ceiling fan, washer/dryer, electric element in the water heater, electric heat strips in the air conditioner, and television.

jtyphoid
11-12-2013, 09:47 AM
Another option for power is to get a US generator to provide 120V 60 Hz to the trailer. It would be a bit expensive to run, due to the high gasoline price, but it might be less expensive than replacing a bunch of appliances, over the expected life span.

Tac
11-12-2013, 01:25 PM
It would be easier to buy a 8000W Permapower 230V to 120V converter. It would just cost ~900$, makes no noise (very importent on european campinggrounds) and don't need fuel.

Has really noone a homemade wiringplan?

I found a ford-matching electric to hydraulic conversion kit with everything inside.
2 Kodiak 13" Discbrake conversions
1 DEXTER Electric / Hydraulic Disc Brake Actuator
1 Hydraulic stainless steel brake tubing kit for leaf spring suspension style axles with Disc brakes

outwest
11-12-2013, 01:51 PM
regarding wiring - from my experience, in days gone by the RV manufacturers here in the U.S. did provide wiring diagrams (I know it was included in manual and paperwork for our 1984 Avion trailer) but nowadays they don't. The manufacturers here have even been known to change things in the middle of the production year, causing units with same year and model to be wired slightly differently.

That being said, the manufacturers must have some wiring diagrams somewhere locked away. But, they wont provide them to the customers nor to the dealers.

There may be some manufacturers out there that will provide wiring diagrams, but I know Keystone certainly wont.

Regarding width of trailer - trailers of 101 inch width is common here (mine is 101 inches). I saw you say roads there would accommodate 100 inch width. Hopefully that extra inch of width wouldn't be an issue.

Tac
11-12-2013, 02:26 PM
The normal streetlegal vehicle wide is exactly 100,39". If you have isolated sidewalls, the wide can be 102,36".

If i found a wide for the 343RL, its always 8ft or 96". Is this the interior wide?

It would really help me if i would know where the 120V wires are and what they are for. The 12V wiring is not a problem. 12V is also the normal vehicle-voltage in europe.
The gas-system is absolutly no problem. Inch or millimeters, what ever. It just have to hold tight.

Festus2
11-12-2013, 02:37 PM
As jtyphoid outlined in his above post, 110VAC is used for: some supplied appliances (microwave), Air Conditioner(s), ceiling fan (s); fireplace (optional, converter, water heater (when on electricity) and for any 110VAC outlets for any owner- supplied small appliances (coffee maker, toaster, etc.).

The 110VAC wires start at the converter and branch out to the interior of the RV. As has been pointed out, there are no diagrams available and I am not aware of any member who has made up their own. Unfortunately, it looks like you are on your own with respect to wiring schematics.

outwest
11-12-2013, 03:39 PM
The normal streetlegal vehicle wide is exactly 100,39". If you have isolated sidewalls, the wide can be 102,36".

If i found a wide for the 343RL, its always 8ft or 96". Is this the interior wide?

It would really help me if i would know where the 120V wires are and what they are for. The 12V wiring is not a problem. 12V is also the normal vehicle-voltage in europe.
The gas-system is absolutly no problem. Inch or millimeters, what ever. It just have to hold tight.
Mine (Keystone Vantage) was advertised as 8,5ft wide. (which is 102", but all spec sheets I've found say it's actually 101"). Advertised width is the exterior width. So, if it's advertised as 8ft you should be okay. The reason some (like mine) are wider is because maximum legal width in United States is 8,5ft.

I hear you on the helpfulness of knowing exactly where the 120V wires are. There's some modifications I am thinking of doing and that information would be very helpful for it.

Tac
11-12-2013, 03:45 PM
Do you know what profile/cross section the cables have? If they are big enough, i could use them. ( The USA have just the half voltage of europe, so there must be the twice amperage to get the same watts, and amperage needs bigger wires)

I'm a diplom chemical engineer, i can dissolve the complete RV in acid, but wire it? :D

With 2 AC's it must have a 400V 32A 3-phase 5 point powerinlet to the vehicle.
Maybe i should use one 230V phase for each AC and wire the rest to the third phase.
3500W are possible on each phase in germany.
Fusing a RV is a special thing to do. Directly behind the inlet plug must come a overload and short protection. Than distribute with overload protection for each phase and for sensitive devices a extra short and overload protection.

Hot water should be provided by gas. 60gal should be enough for some gallons of hot water.

Festus2
11-12-2013, 04:02 PM
Hot water should be provided by gas. 60gal should be enough for some gallons of hot water.

In both the Suburban and Atwood Hot Water heaters, you can use both gas/propane and/or electricity to heat the water. Do you mean "6 gal" rather than "60 gal"? Two common HW tank sizes are 6 and 10 gallons - not 60.

If you do not know how to wire an RV (but can dissolve it in acid :D), perhaps a major modification/conversion to 220VAC would best be left to someone who has some expertise and experience in wiring an RV rather than tackling this job yourself. Just a thought.

Tac
11-12-2013, 04:19 PM
No, i mean 60gal LPG tank. This must be enough for more than a few gallons of hot water.

Of course we have a few shops here who made a complete conversion to eurpean standards. I could even buy the hole vehicle there. For example the only european offical importer of airstream travel trailers. He made conversions on all american and canadian RV's.
But the prices they call aren't funny anymore. Often they just double the dollar figures in euro.
The airstream landyacht has a price of nearly 135000$ at the importer here.

BTW.
What is better in durability and rust protection? Buy a US or a canadian vehicle? Germany is not really the sunny state.

I had a few questions else. Could someone answer them?

Jim W
11-12-2013, 04:38 PM
Would you consider a Ram 1500 truck with a diesel engine in it? This will be available in the third quart of the MY for the 2014 Ram trucks. The Quad cab truck has an overall length of 5816.5mm (229"). I do not know the GVW as of yet; but it should be close to the gas engine trucks which is 13,970 kg (6350lbs) the max trailer weight that a gas 6.7L Hemi can tow is 19,910.0 kg (9050lb). But this must be reduced by the weight of all of the occupants in the truck and gear carried. The Diesel will have a higher GCVW (tow) rating which will help in the 5er towing ability that you want.

Here is a link to the Ram Body Builders web site that lists all of the information that you are looking for. The diesel truck should be listed by Feb, 2014 the latest on this link for the 1500 RAM diesel.


http://www.rambodybuilder.com/2014/intro.pdf

Jim W.

Tac
11-12-2013, 05:10 PM
Thanks for the sheet. Really interesting. Now its 2:00am here. I will read it today morning, after i get some sleep.

Festus2
11-12-2013, 05:15 PM
[QUOTE=Tac;102618]

BTW.
What is better in durability and rust protection? Buy a US or a canadian vehicle? Germany is not really the sunny state.

QUOTE]

I may be wrong but I don't think that there is any difference between an American or Canadian-made vehicle in terms of durability and/or rust protection. There are some minor differences in trim and features that are available but the engines, transmissions and all the rest of the "basics" are the same. Various components of the vehicle are made and shipped back and forth across the border from plant to plant. The end result is essentially the same.

Ken / Claudia
11-12-2013, 09:28 PM
You may not know where the vehicle is made until you read the VIN if it starts with 1 USA made, 2 Canada. Last I checked Dodge where USA and Canada, Ford USA and Mexico (which starts with 3). Also the buildt in what country will be stated in writting on the Fed. Std. Sticker if it was to be sold in USA. The speedos are different if the vehicle is for sale in Canada or USA. If you feel the need to buy a vehicle made in a country of your choice, you need to check with that make and find which country that model is being made and that could change from year to year.

JRTJH
11-12-2013, 10:09 PM
Tac,

We have another relatively new member who lives in Great Britain. They just bought a Springdale 242 fifth wheel and had it shipped to England for conversion. You might do a search for posts made by "Justlizz."

I'm sure that much of the information they shared will apply to you as well.

Good luck

Tac
11-13-2013, 02:53 PM
I wrote a PM to Justlizz. Hope he answer.


Many Thanks for the technical sheets Jim W.
The Ram is the ultimate styler-pickup over here. And to found one in original conditions is Xmas and eastern together. :D
Mostly chrome-blingbling-style or badboy-black-style.
The vehicle for self-expression

Aren't the Rams a little bit low on payload?

justlizz
11-13-2013, 03:44 PM
Hi I have sent a pm but have a look at 5th wheel webs in UK I know the prices are higher than US but a lot of work is done on them and the import of them also Keystone put a disclaimer in they have no warranty the min they leave USA so if things go wrong you could end up with a lemon my dealer will fix things within reason and is very helpful
liz

Jim W
11-13-2013, 04:58 PM
I wrote a PM to Justlizz. Hope he answer.


Many Thanks for the technical sheets Jim W.
The Ram is the ultimate styler-pickup over here. And to found one in original conditions is Xmas and eastern together. :D
Mostly chrome-blingbling-style or badboy-black-style.
The vehicle for self-expression

Aren't the Rams a little bit low on payload?

Hi,
For the newer trucks say 2013 and up Ram has step up to the plate in payload and ride comfort. In fact the 1ton 3500HD DRW has the highest payload and towing capacity in that class for 2013. This is why I think the diesel Ram will have the payload rating that you may need. Look at the 1500 model you will see two different trucks one air ride suspension and or spring suspension list. These I believe have different ratings.

If you need more information look at Turbo Diesel Registry.Com they are the most reliable web site for Ram news, which I am a member on also.

Jim W.

hankaye
11-13-2013, 06:22 PM
Howdy All;

Dodge are good trucks, used to own one.
However don't forget about the recent recall;
http://fox17online.com/2013/11/10/chrysler-recalls-1-2-million-dodge-ram-trucks/#axzz2kaB5mCKN
Need to keep aware...

hankaye

Tac
11-14-2013, 03:30 AM
The sheet lists 3900lbs axles for fornt and rear on the Ram 1500 with 2400lbs baseweight on the rear, for the 5.7l V8. That will not work with the most fifth wheels i see, even not with the Jayco half tons.
Don't know what the Diesel will get.

3500 with drw? Nice truck, but maybe a little bit overpowered on each dimension for a Montana HC 343RL.

If i bust the jackpot on saturday, we can talk. 3500er with DRW and a Heartland Landmark San Antonio or a DRV Elite Suite 44 Memphis. :D

Tac
11-14-2013, 08:57 AM
Hi everybody

I have spoke to our TÜV again and he had done some maths for me during the last 2 Day.
The F150 will not work. ~1800lbs on hitch would work, ~1950lbs is out if range. Towingrate and GCWR is not the problem, but the hitchweigt is just to much. The hitchweights are always the problem over here.
At least, i'm lucky we were not talking about a traveltrailer, because the maximum weight on the ball here in germany is 330lbs. Everything above is not streetlegal.

So if we decide to buy the american way of live, we must purchase the lightest 4x4 2+2 seating 2500er truck on the market.
Would be the F250 with Supercab, 6 3/4 Box and 6.2l V8. And limit it to 7715lbs to get a car registration.
I would prefer the diesel, but its just to heavy.

The next thing i must observe. I must import the fifth wheel by myself. If i would buy it as a complete fifth wheel here, it would be a german saled vehicle and it must have airbrakes. I can just import it by myself and let the conversion done by a shop. Than i can use a connected electric over hydraulic brake.

But i have a question that maybe sounds stupid.
Today i have read many sites about electric over hydraulic trailer brakes.
12-13" discbrakes, matching hydraulic brakecalipers, tubing and of course the electric over hydraulic brake-actuator.
But one thing is not clear for me. I have read many times about the different types trailerbrakecontrol acting.
In one time the brakepower of the trailer is set by the driver and when the driver hits the brakepedal there is only a signal to the trailer brake on or off. The brakepower is not regulated.
The next time the brakepower to the trailer is regulated by centrifugal force. The driver hits the pedal, set trailerbrake on and a small centrifugalsensor sets the brakepower of the trailer.
And the third option is a trailerbrake that sets the brakepower on the trailer syncron to the pedalmovement.

Only the third way is streetlegal in germany. Has the ford F250 a TBC like the third? Do i need a special EoH-Actuator?

Ken / Claudia
11-14-2013, 12:25 PM
I can help alittle regarding trailer brakes. The brakes that work by themselfs as the truck slows or stops is on the trailer only and that is for boat trailers. RVs have brakes controled by the driver and truck. They can be set to start with more force when brake peddle is pushed or not. They all give the trailer more braking with the harder you push on the peddle. With a trailer heavier than the truck you are adivsed to set the controler to start with more force so it brakes harder faster so the truck as not being pushed by the trailer as the truck is stopping. The other brake question I cannot answer.
I did think of a possible truck purchase idea if it might help. You can order/buy a truck without the bed and make one that does what you need to hitch the trailer to. This way you could make it lighter and shorter if needed.

Tac
11-14-2013, 03:02 PM
If i understand it right. The brakepedal has a little potentiometer that rises the voltage or amperage equal to the pedalmovment and the TBC is a amplifier curcuit which adds a adjustable voltage or amperage to the brakepedal signal and the added signals go through the wire to the trailerbrake actuator?

RGene7001
11-14-2013, 07:34 PM
Tac,
I thought that upgrading ML's hitch receiver and putting a brake controller in is a complicated affair but now I see there are bigger possibilities in this world to get yourself in an RV trouble:banghead:......
I am quite sure nobody in all US RV industry will be willing and able to modify anything in the trailer to make it EU compliant, especially the brakes. Unless you know somebody on Germany who can DEFINITELY convert the brakes right way you are running a risk of getting a trailer you can't legally use after spending huge amount of € and$ to bring both the trailer and huge TV through the customs and paying all taxes. We like German vehicles here (I have 2 Mercs) but we pay 50-60% or less from what Europeans have to spend.
If I were you AND PROVIDED IF BRAKE CONVERSION IS DOABLE, I would try to get a German SUV with diesel, air suspension, American type hitch receiver, import an ultralight TT 26-30 feet , up to 7716 lb of weight and try to enjoy your life without this bedroom upstairs.
I feel as comfortable on the road as fifth wheel towers and you can always get Hensley hitch if sway for some reason is present

Ken / Claudia
11-14-2013, 10:42 PM
I think you got it right, it happens thru wires, try Tekonsha towing systems on the web, they are one of several companys that make brake controllers for RVs and large trailers. Some newer Ford trucks come with brake controllers, maybe Dodge and GM but, I am not sure.

Tac
11-15-2013, 05:36 AM
I have spoken to Etrailer.com. He had a explanation for me. The actual factory installed TBC acts just like the way i need. Potentiometer on the brakepedal and the TBC is an amplifier curuit to adjust the brakecharacteristics, but its brakepedal regulated.

If you order a trailer tow group, you will get a factory installed TBC since
years. Ford built in a TBC on F250 and above as a standardoption since 2010, i guess.
The problem is the way, how the TBC act.
The first TBC's act like a switch, brake on or brake off. The driver set a brakepower on the TBC and this brakepower is just set on or off, like the brakelights, just on or off. The brakepower on the trailer is not regulated. Always the same brakepower, doesn't matter how strong you brake.
The aftermarket TBC's are centrifugalsensors which don't have a connection to the brakepedal. If you brake, the centrifugal force sets the Brakepower on the trailer. If you brake harder, you get more force and so you get more brakepower on the trailer.

Only the factory installed TBC's act as a real controler with vehicleinformation.
I hope that informations are right.

So i "just" need to buy new hubs, discbrakeconversion, tubing and EoH-Actuator and i get the brake i need on the trailer.
240$ for Hubs, 650$ for 13" discbrakes with calipers, 650$ for the EoH-Actuator, Tubing 150$. ~1700$ for EoH Brakes.
I would also need new hubs for the 17.5" Rims, because we can't buy 235/80R16 Tires with a Loadindex of 3042lbs here in germany.
900$ for rims and 1000$ for tires.
1700$ is nothing against the 7000-8000$ for a german airbrakesystem.

So, the brakeproblem is hopely solved.
The wireproblem is also solved, i spoke to a shop 60miles away. I can use the installed wires, because the wirediameter is bigger than i need in cause of the higher american amperage.
The "germanisation" of the F250 with the needed 13pin wiring harness is about 3500$.

Nearly all problems are solved.
The next days i will sit down and do my financal maths and see what that all will cost together. But i think the figures will be a littlebit bigger than we first thought :D
We will see what is possible and what not.
Maybe we will wait for the transatlantic trading agreement. This will be maybe next or next-next year. Safes 22% customs. That would be nearly 24000$.

@Rgene7001
Of course it will be always a little bit more expensive and make a little bit more work to be unique. You decide to buy german vehicles instead of US vehicles.
My passat has the capacity to tow travel trailers up to 4400lbs and 165lbs on the ball. The german market is full of TT's with this weightlimit.
(We all use only rope-acting surge brakes for car-trailers, thats why we have the 7715lbs hardcap. And thats the reason why you can't buy a factory installed TBC on german vehicles and from germany imported vehicles like your ML's. And thats why we have a maximum legal GCWR of 15430lbs on all cars, if your car has 7715lbs GVWR and the trailer too.)
And of course i can go to the next dealer and buy a new or new-used TT today and have no problems. I have just to spend 40000-70000$ and drive home with a new TT. And have 15-20 feet livingspace.

If i roughly estimate the buy, import, custom and taxes and the conversion, the costs will be around 160000-180000$ for the hole combination.
But this is around the price which i have to pay only for a MB ML 350CDI. Without the TT. Cars to tow 7715lbs are extremly expensive. They are all luxury SUV's. A car can only two his own GVWR without a connected brake, thats a german law.
A compareable TV and TT combination would beat easily the 250000$, here in germany.

Ken / Claudia
11-15-2013, 10:14 AM
Thats great, sounds like it is possible to get what you want and saving money by doing changes that are required. It is interesting about the stuff you have to change and limits on trucks/trailers in your country that we do not have. As you get the project going let us know.

Tac
11-18-2013, 06:00 AM
Hi everybody.
My financal maths are done.

Its a "little bit" more expensive than we first thought. Hope you are sitting down.

F250 Lariat 4x4 SuperCab Longbox 6.2 V8: 52000$
Keystone Montana HC 343RL: 65000$
Brakeconversion: 2200$
17.5" Rims and Tires: 2000$
Shipping: 6000$
Customs duty: 28000$
Added value tax: 29500$
F250 german streetlegal: 3500$
Navigation conversion: 1500$
Fifth wheel german streetlegal: 1500$
230V/400V conversion with devices: 12000$
Sat & TV & BD: 6500$
300W solarcells & converter: 2000$
Tires for the combination: 3800$
Surveys, exceptional permissions and registration: 1500$
Total: 217000$

I think we will wait for the transatlantic trading agreement. To safe at least the 28000$ customs duty.
Or search for used TV and FW in really good conditions.

jlb27537
11-22-2013, 10:04 AM
Hi everybody.
My financal maths are done.

Its a "little bit" more expensive than we first thought. Hope you are sitting down.

F250 Lariat 4x4 SuperCab Longbox 6.2 V8: 52000$
Keystone Montana HC 343RL: 65000$
Brakeconversion: 2200$
17.5" Rims and Tires: 2000$
Shipping: 6000$
Customs duty: 28000$
Added value tax: 29500$
F250 german streetlegal: 3500$
Navigation conversion: 1500$
Fifth wheel german streetlegal: 1500$
230V/400V conversion with devices: 12000$
Sat & TV & BD: 6500$
300W solarcells & converter: 2000$
Tires for the combination: 3800$
Surveys, exceptional permissions and registration: 1500$
Total: 217000$

I think we will wait for the transatlantic trading agreement. To safe at least the 28000$ customs duty.
Or search for used TV and FW in really good conditions.

Hi TAC, Just some thoughts. You can buy a F250 for a lot less you have listed. Same for the HC, you are quoting list. Buy the HC from a dealer in Elkhart, Indiana. Have them take the trailer to Mor/ryde, also in Elkhart and they can do the conversion to disc brakes. Same for tires. The disc brake hubs will be 8 bolt, 6 1/2" and 17.5 wheels are a direct fit. The factory is only 20 miles from Elkhart so the OEM tires and wheels would be new so they would have trade in value.
http://www.morryde.com/aftermarket/running-gear/disc-brakes-49.html

The wiring on the RV is 50A/220vac. The input wire would be #6. 2 hot legs, 1 netural. The 4th wire is ground and usually #12. Here is a link to a wire conversion table. http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

As mentioned earlier, all appliances are 120vac/60cycle. A converter from your 50 cycle to US 60 cycle would be a option. Forget the F150 size truck. The HC when you get your stuff in it WILL weigh what the listed GVWR of the trailer is. The pin weight WILL be 22% of the GVWR. The weights on the web site and brochure are just wishful thinking.

Jim

Tac
11-24-2013, 07:39 AM
Last days i were really busy, so please excuse my late answer.

Thanks for the tip with Moryde. I knew that Elkhart is a RV central in the USA, but that its is nearly the metropole for RV, i didn't.
I take a look on Google Streetview. Really impressiv.

BTW. What means "amish woodcrafting"? Is that a special quality?

The conversionkit Moryde offers is nearly the same, that Etrailer offert me.
And Dexter Axles is in Elkhart too, so if the axles are too short on GAWR, there would probably be a possibility for an upgrade.

For 16A here is everything over gauge 12 acceptpable, if the wire is a copper wire. If its aluminium, we need it one gauge higher. Do you know the gauge of the 110V wiring, too?

For a huge RV like the Fifth wheels, you need a 5 wire three-phase A.C. current. 3 phases @230V, 1 neutral and 1 ground.

One Phase 230V 16A is too short. Its nearly too short for a german TT with AC. 3600W inlet with a 2500W air conditioning leaves not much room for other devices. Thats why we use the battery-trick. If we need more power than the 3600W from the campingground, we take the additional out of the batteries and charge them later, when the power is not needed anymore, back.


The Cycles are not the problem. Allmost every device who runs on 60Hz runs on 50Hz also. If it has a electric motor in it, it just run a little bit slower.
A 230V to 120V inverter is cheap.
And the entertainment-system must be replaced because we are using a different TV standard here in the EU. Even the codes on dvd's are not compatible.

outwest
11-24-2013, 09:48 AM
BTW. What means "amish woodcrafting"? Is that a special quality?


The Amish are a people that still live the old ways. They are a traditionalist Christian group who do not use electricity, use horse and buggy, no tractors for plowing fields, etc. Amish crafted furniture normally means handcrafted with no power tools and with features such as tongue and groove corners, and solid wood without laminates. That being said, it's become a marketing gimmick for the RV industry. In "amish woodcrafted" RVs you'll find that very few manufacturers use tongue and groove corners, it's all stapled with electric or compressed air powered stapling gun, power tools are used rather than being hand planed and hand sanded, no manufacturers that i've seen use solid wood in RV, etc. (edit to add - some mfg do use a bit of solid wood for cabinet doors etc, but what I meant was all pieces being solid wood)

In german language it's Amische. The closest thing to Amish in Europe today are the Mennonites (Mennoniten).

Tac
11-25-2013, 08:51 AM
Ah okay. Normaly it means classic craftsmanship.

I know who amish, mennonites etc are. No motorized machines and a old strong addiction to god. But absolutly good craftmans.

I just couldn't image what that means for RV building.
In the EU we build RV interior even in paperwork. No joke. Paper can be really though and its light.