Why Did They Do It Like That?

[Bob Landry]

I had an idea for a fun thread. Post descriptions of some of the weird things, construction, plumbing, or electrical related that you have discovered in the course of doing mods or repairs. I'm sure we have all scratched our heads trying to figure out what Keystone's engineers were thinking at various times.

I'll start it off..

Number 1. In the course of installing an exterior power outlet for my air compressor, I discovered that the outlets on the rear wall of trailer were wired to the microwave breaker which is a 20A breaker. At first I found it somewhat amusing, but a little thought had me asking myself why they would run 14 ga wiring(15A) to a 15A outlet and protect it with a 20A breaker. I may have to call Keystone out on that one.

Number 2.. I turned off the breaker to the convert so my 12V would be off while i replaced the 7 Pin plug. Maybe I didn't need to do that, but I'm just funny about working on any type of live circuit. When I went to bed last night, I saw the bedroom clock flashing. It's plugged into the overhead outlet that is located by the television connector. What I found to be the strangest is that there is a blank spot in the breaker panel for another breaker, but Keystone chose to wire it where you would least expect it.

Number 3. All of the overheard 12V lights in the living area, kitchen are controlled by wall switches, the bedroom overheads are not.

Number 4. There is no stove vent outside exhaust and the kitch window extends behind the stove, so there's no way to add one without dong some extensive shet metal wor.

[airforceret]

2013 280RLS:

1) The so-called battery disconnect doesn't really completely disconnect the battery. It's a great concept, but seriously, what use is it if you still have to go pull the battery cable to completely isolate the battery from the wiring system.

2) While installing roof vent covers I came to realize the waste tank vent comes out the roof directly next to where my bathroom vent opens. So what good is it to vent the tank right where it can be drawn right back into the camper through the vent? Oh... so we go and say "honey... really I didn't stink up the bathroom again... it's coming in the vent!!!"

[Bob Landry]

2013 280RLS:

1) The so-called battery disconnect doesn't really completely disconnect the battery. It's a great concept, but seriously, what use is it if you still have to go pull the battery cable to completely isolate the battery from the wiring system.

2) While installing roof vent covers I came to realize the waste tank vent comes out the roof directly next to where my bathroom vent opens. So what good is it to vent the tank right where it can be drawn right back into the camper through the vent? Oh... so we go and say "honey... really I didn't stink up the bathroom again... it's coming in the vent!!!"

Roger, if you inspect closely, you'll find that the battery disconnect does disconnect from the trailer. The only things that I can think of that would stay connected to the battery would be the break-away switch, and the tongue power jack if you have one. Anything directly connected to the battery terminal would remain hot.
If you are talking about the power vent in the bathroom, you'll find that it blows out.
If you do find that I'm incorrect on this, let us know, that would be interesting.

[ktmracer]

as to why there are unused blank spots in the breaker panel, you can thank Nat'l electric code. NEC code limits the number of breakers on a 30A feed to 5. And wen the HWH, AC and GFI required protection circuits require dedicated breakers, doesn't leave much of an option for other stuff. And to stay within that code, Keystone and others have to do some creative wiring. For example, that is why the converter is on the same circuit as the non GFI outlets and the fridge AC element. In fact, the WFCO panel comes pigtailed on the converter breaker just for that reason.

Typical breakers are
AC (20A)
Microwave (15A or20A)
HWH (20A)
GFI (15A)
converter and other outlets (15A)

that's uses up the 5 allowed breakers per NEC code.

Personally, I added a breaker dedicated to the converter. If it's running full out, it will draw 10+A couple with 3A for the AC fridge element, and doesn't leave you much for any outlet draw.

[Bob Landry]

as to why there are unused blank spots in the breaker panel, you can thank Nat'l electric code. NEC code limits the number of breakers on a 30A feed to 5. And wen the HWH, AC and GFI required protection circuits require dedicated breakers, doesn't leave much of an option for other stuff. And to stay within that code, Keystone and others have to do some creative wiring. For example, that is why the converter is on the same circuit as the non GFI outlets and the fridge AC element. In fact, the WFCO panel comes pigtailed on the converter breaker just for that reason.

Typical breakers are
AC (20A)
Microwave (15A or20A)
HWH (20A)
GFI (15A)
converter and other outlets (15A)

that's uses up the 5 allowed breakers per NEC code.

Personally, I added a breaker dedicated to the converter. If it's running full out, it will draw 10+A couple with 3A for the AC fridge element, and doesn't leave you much for any outlet draw.

I understand what you are saying and it does make sense, but that does not justify that they ran wire rated for 15A and fed it with a 20A breaker, They shouls have at least matched the wire to the breaker ratings, IMHO

So, does this mean that when I pull the converter out, I'm going to find all of the 120V connections pigtailed at the breaker? If so, it should be easy enough to add a breaker and sort out the wiring for the outlets.

[ktmracer]

I understand what you are saying and it does make sense, but that does not justify that they ran wire rated for 15A and fed it with a 20A breaker, They shouls have at least matched the wire to the breaker ratings, IMHO

So, does this mean that when I pull the converter out, I'm going to find all of the 120V connections pigtailed at the breaker? If so, it should be easy enough to add a breaker and sort out the wiring for the outlets.

yes, they should have use #12 wire. And I think (not positive) that since the microwave is "permanent" not a countertop, that NEC requires it to be on a dedicated circuit, so nothing else should be on it. that's the way mine is.

Maybe an electrician familiar with latest codes can clarify.

In any event, yes it is easy to pop in another breaker and put the converter on it's own breaker and have a outlet circuit that can handle 15a when the converter is on. What you likely will find is that the regular outlet circuits (not the GFI required circuit) will be on the converter breaker as well. Why you have one outlet on the microwave is a mystery to me.

Course when I did that I violated code, but not to concerned anyway.

[gkainz]

Smoke alarm positioned almost directly over the stovetop.
To prepare ANYTHING on the stove (including coffee or tea kettle)
Step 1. remove battery from smoke alarm.
Step 2. prepare item
Step 3. reinstall battery

[JRTJH]

Smoke alarm positioned almost directly over the stovetop.
To prepare ANYTHING on the stove (including coffee or tea kettle)
Step 1. remove battery from smoke alarm.
Step 2. prepare item
Step 3. reinstall battery

gkainz,

Blame RVIA for that problem.... Part of the RVIA code stipulates that a smoke detector "MUST" be located within 10 ft of any open flame device within the RV.

I'm not sure if the code changed or if Keystone did a "boo boo" but on my new Cougar, the smoke detector is actually about 18' from the stove. It's located in the hallway just at the head of the stairs. So far, we haven't had it go off with cooking, but my DW hasn't allowed me to start burning things yet, so it may still be a problem, even that far away..... :eek:

[Bob Landry]

yes, they should have use #12 wire. And I think (not positive) that since the microwave is "permanent" not a countertop, that NEC requires it to be on a dedicated circuit, so nothing else should be on it. that's the way mine is.

Maybe an electrician familiar with latest codes can clarify.

In any event, yes it is easy to pop in another breaker and put the converter on it's own breaker and have a outlet circuit that can handle 15a when the converter is on. What you likely will find is that the regular outlet circuits (not the GFI required circuit) will be on the converter breaker as well. Why you have one outlet on the microwave is a mystery to me.

Course when I did that I violated code, but not to concerned anyway.

The outlet on the Microwave circuit is a mystery to me also. When I have time, I'm going to go around with my little three-light tester andtrip breakers one at a time and see exactly what is where. I'm sure that I'm in for some surprises.

[Bob Landry]

I did receive a return email from Keystone pertaining to my electrical question and this is just about what I expected. I guess what really bothers me is that Keystone's representatives have no qualms about lying to their customers. I'm familiar with production manufacturing, and I can tell you that the design engineers design it to be built a certain way, and that the bean counters and the production floor managers insure that everything is the same every time. That is the ONLY way they can keep their cost accounting accurate. The idea that they would send the "Gilligan of the day" out to the production floor with a box of parts and some rolls of wire to do it on his own is nothing less than absurd.

Thank you for the e-mail. For electrical issues, please see a service technician. We are unable to assist for liability reasons. There are no wiring diagrams and it is up to the person doing the wiring on that particular production day. Should you wish to find an authorized Keystone RV service center, you may do so at www.keystonerv.com.

I guess this means the Amish people who do the production work are, in fact, in charge of the production facility. According to this guy's response any it's possible that there is absolutely no guarantee that any two trailers are going to come off the line built the same way

[hankpage]

Sorry Bob, but this time they are not lying. That is the way it is in the RV industry. And yes, an Amish person who has never used electricity in his own home in his life probably wired your trailer (maybe in his barn). :eek: I am sure he was shown how to do it at least once. :rolleyes:

[JRTJH]

Bob,

Another possiblity in Keystone's answer to you is that they simply don't want to get involved with the individual owner and the response is their way of saying, "Don't call us, call your dealer. We don't have your RV in front of us and can't (won't) give you any advice because we don't want to accept the liability it may incur."

Not defending Keystone, but they have no idea if you're a master electrician trying to catch them in a wiring error or a kid playing in dad's RV and trying to get things put back together after tearing things apart. So I can understand some reluctance on Keystone's part in getting into the liability situation.

[Festus2]

I did receive a return email from Keystone pertaining to my electrical question and this is just about what I expected. I guess what really bothers me is that Keystone's representatives have no qualms about lying to their customers.

Thank you for the e-mail. For electrical issues, please see a service technician. We are unable to assist for liability reasons. There are no wiring diagrams and it is up to the person doing the wiring on that particular production day. Should you wish to find an authorized Keystone RV service center, you may do so at www.keystonerv.com.



Bob -
I'd be interested in what question(s) you asked or what concerns that you had that would prompt a response like, "We are unable to assist for liability reasons". Surely, there has to be a wiring diagram somewhere. The engineers who designed it must have made a diagram and gave it to the someone on the production line. Or was this diagram simply floating around in some engineer's head and the workers on the production line are supposed to read his mind and run a bunch of wires here and there and hook them up?

I guess this would also mean that Jack, the electrical guy, is given creative license to do whatever he feels like doing on his particular shift. Then Bill comes along and has a different idea of how it should be wired.

There are electrical diagrams that are found in the Owners' Manuals of trucks and cars. No mention of liability issues from Ford, GMC or Ram. What liability issues does Keystone and/or other RV manufacturers fear that they are "unable to assist" and refuse to provide wiring and plumbing diagrams for the products they build?

[JRTJH]

Festus2,

I think the major difference in automobile/truck assembly line wiring and RV wiring is the components that are assembled. In vehicles, there are specific "already manufactured" wiring harnesses that have clips, wire bundles, assembled hangar supports and connectors at specific locations. Essentially, there's only one way to stick it in the space provided in the vehicle.

In RV's, each unit is manufactured individually and there is no "assembled wiring harness" to install. Rather there's a roll of red 16 gage, a roll of black 16 gage, a roll of green 16 gage and similar rolls of 14 gage wire. One worker may grab the end of the red 16 gage roll and walk to the other end of the RV, cut the wire and stuff it along the ceiling channel while the next worker may grab the 14 gage black wire and run it in the same ceiling channel. One may grab the 14 gage romex and the next may grab the 12 gage romex to make the run they are working on.

Is it correct that they do what they do? Is it lack of supervision? Inattention to detail? Lack of enforcement at the end with QC inspection? or a need to keep the line moving and a belief that any wire will work because they all meet "code" ???

I don't agree with my assessment of how RV's are wired, but I think, to a certain extent, that's how it's done. If you were the supervisor on the floor and saw a black wire where a red one should be (and it's on the wrong side of the A/C ducting run, would you shut down the line to fix it (at the risk of being criticized by the bean counters) or would you accept it as functional even though not "really right" and keep the line running?

I know what I'd like to do in that situation, but I don't think I'd be supervising for very long if I kept shutting down the line and stopping the process.

My brother in law who worked at GM Truck and Coach told me once in a conversation that they had a compliance team that followed the line and repaired/finished what didn't get done on each station. He said it was cheaper to pay them to walk along beside each vehicle/station rather than to shut down the line. He said that every time someone pulled the cord to ring the bell and shut it down, it cost GM $10,000. I don't know if that's accurate or not, but in relating the cost to Keystone's assembly line, if it were shut down repeatedly, they'd never get anything out the door and they'd never make any profit. Not defending Keystone or their practices, but I can see how it would occur that a 14 gage Romex could be installed in a 20 Amp circuit and panelling installed over it as it rolls down the line. Once it's at the next station and they're installing plugs, do they rip the wall out? or do they install the plug and put a cover on it so it keeps moving down the line?

Is it proper? NOPE, does it happen? Probaby more than Keystone wants to admit......

[Bob Landry]

Bob -
I'd be interested in what question(s) you asked or what concerns that you had that would prompt a response like, "We are unable to assist for liability reasons". Surely, there has to be a wiring diagram somewhere. The engineers who designed it must have made a diagram and gave it to the someone on the production line. Or was this diagram simply floating around in some engineer's head and the workers on the production line are supposed to read his mind and run a bunch of wires here and there and hook them up?

I guess this would also mean that Jack, the electrical guy, is given creative license to do whatever he feels like doing on his particular shift. Then Bill comes along and has a different idea of how it should be wired.

There are electrical diagrams that are found in the Owners' Manuals of trucks and cars. No mention of liability issues from Ford, GMC or Ram. What liability issues does Keystone and/or other RV manufacturers fear that they are "unable to assist" and refuse to provide wiring and plumbing diagrams for the products they build?

I worded very cordial questions as to why they would run a 14 ga wire to an outlet that was protected by a 20A fuse, and I asked if the 120V connections were all ganged at the breaker panel or where they were connected. My explanation was that I simply wanted to add an additional breaker and sort the wiring out so that the electrical system was properly laid out.

As far as the aspect of automotive wiring, yes, the wiring is pre-manufactured in harnesses, ready to install, however, wiring diagrams of any vehicle are available all over the internet as well as to the repair shops. In the process of installing cameras, alarms, and stereo/nav systems, it is often necessary to tie into a specific part of the vehicles electrical system, and the auto manufacturers do not seemed to worried that information would come back to haunt them in a liability suit. All that would be required is a disclaimer. I'm really starting to think that Keystone, and many other dealers, do not know what is leaving their production floor and do not want to know or get involved with anything, explaining why they always throw it back to the dealers.
I'm really looking forward to the next RV show because you can bet, If I can find a Keystone rep, I'm going to nail him in a corner and he's not getting away without giving some answers. If you're going to run a shady deal, man up, take credit for it and give a satisfactory explanation why you are doing it.

[jol]

Hey kind of like the whatever part, piece comes down the line that is what we put there. Water pump or whatever. Now the no wiring diagram is a bit scary and who know what or how stuff was done is a bit perplexing. Even a vehicle no matter what has a wiring diagram you know the gray wire with yellow dots is for one item where the yellow wire with gray dots for something else, but no wiring diagram at all?

[JRTJH]

Jol

Logic would tell you that there MUST be wiring diagrams "somewhere." When Keystone (or any other manufacturer) comes up with a new floorplan, the design engineers have to determine where to put lights, switches, appliances, gas lines, hot and cold water lines, air and heat ducting and the many other things that must work "together" to make the RV function.

Somewhere in the files at Keystone is a "wiring diagram" that includes all the design specifications including the exact amount of wire (by size, length and probably color) so the bean counters can determine a final cost to build and the marketers can determine a wholesale cost, retail price and whatever else they need to calculate so they know the profit margin the new model will provide. All of this MUST be done before the first frame gets set on the assembly line floor. If not, there's no way to know if the new model will make money or lose money. So, you can bet, there's a diagram there "SOMEWHERE."

What irks many of us is that Keystone "refuses" to even admit that they have a wiring diagram. I think we'd all at least accept the response of, "Yes we have one and it's proprietary information that we won't release to the public" but to tell us that "No wiring diagram exists" is just not accurate.

[Bob Landry]

Jol

Logic would tell you that there MUST be wiring diagrams "somewhere." When Keystone (or any other manufacturer) comes up with a new floorplan, the design engineers have to determine where to put lights, switches, appliances, gas lines, hot and cold water lines, air and heat ducting and the many other things that must work "together" to make the RV function.

Somewhere in the files at Keystone is a "wiring diagram" that includes all the design specifications including the exact amount of wire (by size, length and probably color) so the bean counters can determine a final cost to build and the marketers can determine a wholesale cost, retail price and whatever else they need to calculate so they know the profit margin the new model will provide. All of this MUST be done before the first frame gets set on the assembly line floor. If not, there's no way to know if the new model will make money or lose money. So, you can bet, there's a diagram there "SOMEWHERE."

What irks many of us is that Keystone "refuses" to even admit that they have a wiring diagram. I think we'd all at least accept the response of, "Yes we have one and it's proprietary information that we won't release to the public" but to tell us that "No wiring diagram exists" is just not accurate.

Everything that John said, I have said many times in various threads and it is the basis for production manufacturing. They know how much of everything, and what color goes into every trailer they build, right down to the inch, and what it's going to cost before the welder strikes his first arc. The old adage applies, that if you can't measure it, you can't manage it. That's the way production facilities operate, and in spite of what the minions at Keystone say, it's done the same way every time. Every worker does the same task over and over. Otherwise their cost accounting goes right out the window.
Are there diagrams and engineering drawings of everything in every trailer? You bet, and for them to say otherwise insults everyone's intelligence. This stuff isn't designed on a napkin during a happy hour beer, so to that I have to call BS.
As far as their refusal to release any information for liability reasons and the safety of their customers, disclaimers are so easy to write, even a lawyer can do it, so to that one, I also have to call BS.
I just need to stop calling Keystone for information because when people lie to me, it really diminishes my desire to do business with them again, and in spite of my satisfaction with my current trailer, I think I'm there. Keystone doesn't have the only game in town, and I think there are people out there who will deal with you with a lot more integrity.<rant off>

[airforceret]

Roger, if you inspect closely, you'll find that the battery disconnect does disconnect from the trailer. The only things that I can think of that would stay connected to the battery would be the break-away switch, and the tongue power jack if you have one. Anything directly connected to the battery terminal would remain hot.
If you are talking about the power vent in the bathroom, you'll find that it blows out.
If you do find that I'm incorrect on this, let us know, that would be interesting.

Bob,

I replaced the touch panel under warranty and while disconnecting wires from the touch panel, many of the wires began sparking against one another. So apparently the touch panel wiring is exempt from the battery disconnect.

[Roller4Tan]

Bob,

I replaced the touch panel under warranty and while disconnecting wires from the touch panel, many of the wires began sparking against one another. So apparently the touch panel wiring is exempt from the battery disconnect.

Through other posts and my own experience the slides and power jacks are exempt from the battery switch. as they do not present a current draw when not in use. So your panel wiring and anything run by the remote will be hot.

[ktmracer]

Through other posts and my own experience the slides and power jacks are exempt from the battery switch. as they do not present a current draw when not in use. So your panel wiring and anything run by the remote will be hot.

In most cases the slides and jacks are fused/breakered in the converter panel. so either the WHOLE panel or NON of the panel is disconnected with the battery discconnect switch.

In my case the tongue jack is not run through the panel so it is not disconnected by the master switch. All the rest of the 12V comes from the converter panel and is disconnected.

If the trailer is wired with the slides not going through the panel, then they could be hot with the disconnect switch off.

[Bob Landry]

Bob,

I replaced the touch panel under warranty and while disconnecting wires from the touch panel, many of the wires began sparking against one another. So apparently the touch panel wiring is exempt from the battery disconnect.

I'm not claiming to know all of the intricacies of how your trailer 12V wiring is installed. I'm just saying that if you are not plugged into shore power, the only 12V source you are going to have is the battery. If your control panel is between the battery switch and the battery, it has power all the time. Personally, I would redo it so that everything in the battery including the control panel was dead. Even though you think the panel is turned off, there are still parasitic loads that will drain a battery such as sensors, radio/TV memory, etc. The only things that have power when my battery is turned off is the breakaway switch and the tongue jack.

[JRTJH]

What I did with my Cougar (which has a factory installed 12V cutoff switch) is install a second cutoff switch on the negative lead from the battery box to the front wall distribution panel. The factory switch is installed AFTER the first 30Amp autoreset fuse. That fuse is connected to the front landing gear, slide, main convenience panel, break away switch and front landing gear lights. There may be other circuits I haven't discovered wired to that breaker also.

From that breaker, the 12V lead goes to the factory installed cutoff switch and from there to the second 30Amp autoreset fuse which then goes to the 12 volt fuse panel in the converter.

So, in essence, on my Cougar, turning off the battery cutoff switch only disconnects those components that are routed through the converter panel. I believe that's why the front landing gear, slide, etc have "in line" fuses hidden throughout the wiring harness. They aren't protected by the fuse panel in the converter.

[Kristi]

Number 3. All of the overheard 12V lights in the living area, kitchen are controlled by wall switches, the bedroom overheads are not.

.

And they put the light right over the bed in our passport where I can't reach it without climbing on the bed. :confused:

[outwest]

On our vantage, the switch to control the slide is very low to the floor, where a small child could easily reach it. Seems like an accident waiting to happen and a huge liability issue to me, especially when you consider how much little kids like to play with switches.

Would make more sense to have it high up on wall, next to the control panel. I would think it would have saved wiring to put it there too, since that shares a wall with converter and is closer to slide. Where factory put it is just inside the door, on opposite side of trailer from both converter and slide, and about 2 feet above floor.

[theeyres]

On my Hideout the shore power cord pushes into it's opening behind the spare tire mounted on the rear bumper. Can't move the tire or it will be in front of the furnace vent. Only choice is to carry the spare tire in the truck bed or fight the cord.

[Bob Landry]

On my Hideout the shore power cord pushes into it's opening behind the spare tire mounted on the rear bumper. Can't move the tire or it will be in front of the furnace vent. Only choice is to carry the spare tire in the truck bed or fight the cord.

Having to work around the spare tire to get the power cord in and out would get to be a PITA pretty quick. Have you considered converting to a detachable cord?

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_101470_0_b14d7a59bf1f8bb22c885f6d018e9abd.jpg (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/rlandry6/media/inlet.jpg.html)

[airforceret]

Well in my humble opinion, if it says "battery disconnect" then it really should do just that... or relabel it as "work on it at your own risk as this does not entirely remove the battery from the electrical circuitry of this unit"

:)

[Bob Landry]

Well in my humble opinion, if it says "battery disconnect" then it really should do just that... or relabel it as "work on it at your own risk as this does not entirely remove the battery from the electrical circuitry of this unit"

:)

And a correctly located battery switch will do exactly that. The exception is that the breakaway switch is connected directly to the POS post because you want it functional even if you are towing with the switch turned off. Another item that stays connected to he hot terminal is a power tongue jack, if you have one on the trailer. There's no reason really for doing that either way, I've just never seen the jack connected any way but directly to the positive terminal. Neither the jack or the breakaway switch are going to have any relevance to the interior 12V systems in the trailer.

[ktmracer]

And a correctly located battery switch will do exactly that. The exception is that the breakaway switch is connected directly to the POS post because you want it functional even if you are towing with the switch turned off. Another item that stays connected to he hot terminal is a power tongue jack, if you have one on the trailer. There's no reason really for doing that either way, I've just never seen the jack connected any way but directly to the positive terminal. Neither the jack or the breakaway switch are going to have any relevance to the interior 12V systems in the trailer.

I agree completely, however if your Jack has a light and switch on it, make sure the light is turned OFF!! I always double check the jack light to avoid a dead battery.

[twstdpear]

Found an interesting one today while attempting to winterize. Here were my low point drains:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-oMlJC8-P060/Un7cNeIJi0I/AAAAAAAAAtk/WjIlx17UUYc/h480/IMG_0617.JPG

Notice how "accessible" the hot water low-point drain is? I must have not noticed it last year and just dumped cold and then did my normal winterizing (blow out & then pump antifreeze) since I was at a campground and winterized as we were packing up. It's a good thing it worked out and nothing burst, but I guess the antifreeze mixed with the water well enough to do its job. I decided to go ahead and take the time to fix it instead of rolling the dice again, plus do an upgrade while I was at it:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-VEXuYAVur4A/Un7cNYU_W8I/AAAAAAAAAto/FR5nKghrMQI/w480/IMG_0618.JPG

I still need to tape it up, but it's somewhat hard to even see the cut and the whole setup is *much* more user friendly now. All they needed was a 8" piece of red PEX instead of a 5" piece, and I wouldn't be writing this. I also would have been able to finish winterizing today.

[cwray]

Think about a house. It is built with a wiring diagram but that is an electrical drawing not mechanical so you do not know haw the wires are physically routed. I think RVs are the same, they have a wiring diagram but not a physical layout for running the cables. About the breaker, wire plug issue, who knows what they were doing.