Front end cap bubbles

[rixbullet]

I went out to wash my trailer and noticed large "bubbles" on front end near top.
Took it to my local rv repair, they suggested to contact Keystone. I did, then sent pictures of damage. Reply from Keystone;

"Thank you for the photos. They have been reviewed by our service department and they respectfully decline participation due to the time out of warranty and no prior history of this issue. Thank you for allowing us to review it."

It is a 2010 294 bhs Bullet. I don't think mine is the only one with this problem.

[JRTJH]

Post copies of those photos you sent to Keystone so we can see what you're talking about. Keep in mind that your RV is now 4 years old and almost everyone has a different type of use/storage/maintenance regimen. All of that plays into the durability of your RV's surface.

Anyway, photos would help.

[rixbullet]

pictures hope this works



http://flic.kr/p/gLvZFd
http://flic.kr/p/gLwYAz

[jmarchant]

I have a 2005 keystone laradeo. My front cap looks like yours, I took it to an r.v. repair guy who ilike, he said it was water getting in between the fiberglass and the cardboard undernieth. I am tring to run it through my insurance. we will see what happens. it is an expencive fix.

[fred1609]

Would an extended warranty cover this.....that doesn't look to good.

[Festus2]

Would an extended warranty cover this.....that doesn't look to good.

I think if one were to read the many exclusions found in extended warranties, you would find that any damage caused by leakage is not covered. It would be extremely difficult to prove that this damage was not caused by the failure of the owner to carry out regular inspection and maintenance and that it was instead caused by a manufacturer's defect.

[04z71]

So i guess dont get a trailer with a front cap style

[Bowti]

I think if one were to read the many exclusions found in extended warranties, you would find that any damage caused by leakage is not covered. It would be extremely difficult to prove that this damage was not caused by the failure of the owner to carry out regular inspection and maintenance and that it was instead caused by a manufacturer's defect.

You know I don't post very often, but statements like this get to me. How is it we pay good money for our units and there can't be any expectation for them to last more than 3 years?

Why do you defend the manufacturers to the point it is our fault they don't give us better products?

Regular inspection should not be necessary to prevent our unites from this kind leaking and cause this kind of damage

There has to be some kind of expectation for our units to last longer than this. Can you imagine a boating manufacturer telling you the reason your boat sank is because you didn't forsee that the hull was going to open up and let water in. This like the manufacturer telling you that all our hulls open up and your boat with sink if you don't expect them.


In other words, there should be some kind of expectation that the manufacturing process takes into fact that these things bounce down the road and they need to hold up for more than 3 yrs.

[Javi]

I have an extended warranty and I get the roof inspected every 6 months by an authorized service center, cost me $25 if he doesn't need to use any caulking. Last time it cost me $38.75 , but I keep all my receipts and his written inspection forms in my files. Seems like good insurance to me.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using Tapatalk

[Festus2]

You know I don't post very often, but statements like this get to me. How is it we pay good money for our units and there can't be any expectation for them to last more than 3 years?

Why do you defend the manufacturers to the point it is our fault they don't give us better products?

Regular inspection should not be necessary to prevent our unites from this kind leaking and cause this kind of damage

There has to be some kind of expectation for our units to last longer than this. Can you imagine a boating manufacturer telling you the reason your boat sank is because you didn't forsee that the hull was going to open up and let water in. This like the manufacturer telling you that all our hulls open up and your boat with sink if you don't expect them.


In other words, there should be some kind of expectation that the manufacturing process takes into fact that these things bounce down the road and they need to hold up for more than 3 yrs.

Bowti -

Firstly, it was not my intent to place any blame on the OP for the bubbles on his front cap. I was responding to the post which asked whether or not an extended warranty would cover the cost of repair and any damage. In my response, I indicated that, in almost all cases, leaks and damage caused by them are not covered. Leaks in RV's are not uncommon and it is clearly stated in the Keystone owner's manual, that it is the owner's responsibility and duty to carry out regular, routine maintenance of your RV. Should a leak occur, it is up to you to prove that you have been diligent in the proper, regular maintenance. This includes inspecting your RV for areas that are caulked to ensure that the caulking is not cracked, loose or otherwise needing removal and reapplication or simply adding more sealant or caulking.

Secondly, I am not saying it is "our fault" for a poorly-manufactured product. Realize that RV's come off an assembly line and they do and will have defects. It is up to us, as owners, to carry out a thorough pre-delivery inspection and catch as many of those defects as possible and get them fixed before you take it home. Some of these imperfections are minor and some aren't. Nevertheless, the owner just can't assume that it is free of defects and ignore it for "x" years hoping that nothing will or should go wrong.


Thirdly, if the owner is diligent and ensures that regular inspections and maintenance are carried out, an RV should last well beyond 3 years. The fact that they do "bounce down the road" only emphasizes the necessity for the owner to be on top of things - tightening screws and water line connections that work loose for example. Regular inspection is absolutely necessary.

I think all larger boat owners, including myself, would agree that it is part of the routine to have it hauled out of the water every 1-2 years and have the hull/bottom inspected, repainted, zincs replaced and so on. I was never anticipating the hull to separate and let the sea come pouring in but I did make sure that my boat was looked after which included regular inspections and maintenance. The process is not any different with an RV - inspect and maintain.

Finally, I am not defending Keystone but simply pointing out that we, as owners, have a responsibility to inspect and maintain our RV's to ensure that they will "hold up for more than 3 years".

[billb800si]

You know I don't post very often, but statements like this get to me. How is it we pay good money for our units and there can't be any expectation for them to last more than 3 years? Why do you defend the manufacturers to the point it is our fault they don't give us better products?
Regular inspection should not be necessary to prevent our unites from this kind leaking and cause this kind of damage.
=====================

Simple: if you don't perform basic maintenance then it's your fault. You buy a new car. You don't change the oil for three years and then you want the manufacturer to fix the engine????

These RV's are bouncing down the rotten roads in America and yes we can get some cracks in them. Inspect & Re-caulk where necessary.

And don't forget to check the air pressure in your tires- biggest reason we have tire failure is due to under inflation..
Happy trails,

[rixbullet]

After Keystone would not help, I went to my local RV service. After tear down, there was not any water damage. The shop told me Keystone is the only company that doesn't use wood behind the front cap. Some type of cardboard instead. They see a lot of the same problem on Keystone products.

[Bowti]

After Keystone would not help, I went to my local RV service. After tear down, there was not any water damage. The shop told me Keystone is the only company that doesn't use wood behind the front cap. Some type of cardboard instead. They see a lot of the same problem on Keystone products.

Rix, I'm glad you were able to get to the bottom of things.

I'm sorry if my post stepped on anyone's toes.

All I was trying to say was, why do we seem to have such low expectations of our RV manufacturers? Why are we so quick to assume someone hasn't performed regular maintenance?

As far as the, "Bouncing down the road goes", Shouldn't the manufactures know that we move our unites, and address it in their manufacturing process like other vehicle company's do.

I used the example of the boating industry, because anyone who has ever ridden in a high horsepower boat in ruff sea conditions, know the boats will take more abuse than us humans can put up with.

The same goes for the off road recreation industry. These machines can take unbelievable abuse, way,way, beyond their intended use, and still hold up.

I am not saying our unites should be able to take this kind of abuse, but I am saying they should be able to stand up to their intended use,"bouncing down the road".

Also, many (not all) of the problems posted here have nothing to do with maintenance. I think we could all make a long list.

Again, I am not trying to offend anyone, this is just my view after some 55 years of being a gear head.

[rixbullet]

You're right, as costly as they are you would think these units could withstand some usage.

[Beachnut]

After Keystone would not help, I went to my local RV service. After tear down, there was not any water damage. The shop told me Keystone is the only company that doesn't use wood behind the front cap. Some type of cardboard instead. They see a lot of the same problem on Keystone products.

Glad you were able to get it fixed. (I would have asked the repair guy to photograph everything, showing NO water damage, and re-submit it to Keystone). Seeing so many of us have that same type of front cap, can you share what exactly they did to fix it? (Did they remove the whole front cap, or localized fix?) If you do not mind sharing,, how much did the fix cost? Was it done by a Keystone dealer, or other repair center? Which repair center, and where, just in case someone else wants to go to the same shop. (Thank you for any answers).

I too agree that after paying near $25K for a new trailer, you would expect it to last,, for years. I wash and wax mine 1 to 2 times a year with marine wax, yet near every decal is pealing off from sun exposure / defective decals. Read on forums to NEVER use a RV cover due to front cap de- lamination problems such as this. It seems sad, that I bought a fiberglass siding trailer as I THOUGHT it was more durable, and would last longer than metal siding, yet, this... It seriously has you concerned about just how long should you hang on to the trailer, before selling it out of fear of it having problems like this. Seriously makes you think twice about buying another "new" trailer, rather than buying one that is 3-4 years old, and you can see if it was built well enough, with good enough materials,, to last past that. I guess we are all suppose to have monster RV garages to park them in, so they WILL last... :confused:

[billb800si]

After Keystone would not help, I went to my local RV service. After tear down, there was not any water damage. The shop told me Keystone is the only company that doesn't use wood behind the front cap. Some type of cardboard instead. They see a lot of the same problem on Keystone products.
=====================
For what it's worth, here's the Cougar High Country construction spec's I received directly from Keystone BEFORE we purchased our new Cougar.
--------------------
Cougar High Country construction:
Jason Gill [email protected]
Thu 5/9/2013 6:35 PM

Below is information on the Cougar High Country Construction

1. Roof:
a) Nylon reinforced molded composite arched roof trusses 16” on center.
b) R-14 battan insulation
c) 3/8” plywood roof decking
d) Dicor rubber roof system

2. Sidewalls
a) 1 ½” tubular aluminum framed- double welded
b) 1/8” luan interior wall board
c) 1 ½” R-9 Block foam insulation
d) 1/8” exterior luan sub straight
e) 1/8” Premium Medallion high gloss fiberglass

3. Front Wall
A) 1 ½” Tubular aluminum framed welded wall
B) R-14 Battan insulation
C) Gel coat fiberglass Front Cap

4. Rear wall & Side of Slide Walls
a) 1 ½” tubular framed welded wall
b) R-14 battan insulation
c) 1/8” luan sub straight
d) 1/8” High Gloss Medallion high gloos fiberglass

5. Floor:
a) 1 ½” tubular aluminum framed- double welded
b) 1/8” luan interior wall board
c) 1 ½” R-9 Block foam insulation
d) 1/8” exterior luan sub straight
e) 1/8” Premium Medallion high gloss fiberglass

6. Slide out floors:
a) R-15 astro-foil sheet insulated

7. Zero degree tested & Rated Underbelly:
a) ¼” Corruagted plastic covered underbelly
b) Insulated with R-15 Astro Foil Sheet

8. Slide System:
a) Norco Accuslide

9. Exterior Electric Jacks & Remote
a) Lippert

10. Suspension System:
a) Mor Ryde CRE 3000

11. Entrance Door & Windows
a) Lippert (Kinro)

Thank you,

Jason Gill
Cougar - DSM

[rixbullet]

The unit is still in shop, visited it couple of days ago. The whole front cap is being replaced. I felt the inner cardboard which is crumbling. The shop is replacing the cardboard with wood as the sides have. Sundown rv in Merced. Great people. I requested no new graphics as the old ones are shrunk and peeling,(not interested in free advertising either). Not sure on price yet, 2500 to 4000 depending on materials and labor?

[Bowti]

The unit is still in shop, visited it couple of days ago. The whole front cap is being replaced. I felt the inner cardboard which is crumbling. The shop is replacing the cardboard with wood as the sides have. Sundown rv in Merced. Great people. I requested no new graphics as the old ones are shrunk and peeling,(not interested in free advertising either). Not sure on price yet, 2500 to 4000 depending on materials and labor?


Sounds like you have the right people working on it, but dam, $2500 to $4000.

I am now waiting for someone to jump in here now to defend the company by telling you, you used the wrong type of wax, or maybe you waxed it too often or maybe not enough. Hell, there has got to be a way this is your fault.

Again sorry for the rant, I hope someone can relate.

[Tinbender]

Bill-
Both the floor and sidewall specs appear to be the same. The specs for the floor (item #5) don't look right........?????

I don't know about the "High Country" but I can say for sure on the 2013 Cougar 24RKS. I just finished installing an additional 20 amp inlet service and had to drill the exterior wall and floor both. The wall is 1/8 ply with about 1/32 inch of fiberglass on the outside and 1/8 ply covered with vinyl wall covering on the inside. These two layers sandwich a piece of 1" bead board foam for a total wall thickness of approx. 1-5/16 inches. Beadboard for craps sake not even extruded foam that has just a little strength to it.

The floor is of the same construction except it uses 2" beadboard and vinyl floor covering instead of wall covering.

Sure makes a guy wonder what the heck is holding the roof up, I mean how stout can the wall studs be???

Later
Tinbender

[fla-gypsy]

That is caused by water intrusion from a lack of maintenance of the lap sealant and will never be covered by any warranty regardless of what anyone thinks should be the durability of a RV. It is a required maintenance item clearly spelled out in every owners manual. As far as the repair facility telling you there is no sign of water damage; what benefit to them is there in getting mixed up in a squabble between you and Keystone? Frequent inspection and repairs as needed will make a trailer last a long time. Mine is 8+ years old and has required no major repairs due to construction or materials.

[KJcachers]

My 2013 Bullet had water bubbles on the inside of the front wall. Keystone said it was a factory defect in the front roof seal and replaced the whole front end free of charge. Sitting right at 11 months of ownership when it happened.

[Beachnut]

My 2013 Bullet had water bubbles on the inside of the front wall. Keystone said it was a factory defect in the front roof seal and replaced the whole front end free of charge. Sitting right at 11 months of ownership when it happened.

Your the "Lucky" ONE! It is the rest of us, that are past our one year warranty that are stuck with something poorly constructed. Don't get me wrong, I love our Outback, but this front cap problem became known to me shortly AFTER i bought it while researching RV covers. WAY Too MANY threads around this forum on front cap de-lamination's and failures to call it a "fluke", or,, a rare water intrusion, (at the owners fault). Every time I pick my trailer up from our storage lot, first thing I do is look over the front cap for warp-age, and ya know,, I should not need to do that! After checking that, then I look at all my further decaying decals, as they continue to wrinkle and shrink away. (Which is why I wanted to put a RV cover on it, to keep the sun off, yet, CAN'T due to front cap "problems"! I guess there are just too many Keystone trailers out their with this type of front cap for them to "make good" on them, but it surly makes you think twice about buying another Keystone product...

Rixbullet

Please update this post when your trailer is completed. Photo's would sure be FANTASTIC to see if you could post some. Merced is not too far from me to be out of the question if I need that repair, so knowing the price, and the quality of repair job they doo, will sure be good info to know! Are they putting the same type of material back on your trailer? I think it is called "Flexion" or something from my bad memory of older posts.

I guess the real question, is how long do we all keep our trailers, as every day longer that we own them, we risk a $2.5 to $4K front cap repair job! (tx)

I wonder if the newer front caps would fit / work. Probably not, as on my model, they rounded out the interior ceiling, where mine is squared off.

[rixbullet]

Got trailer home today, $2600 looks good and strong.

[2014Fuzion300]

Looking good !


Sent from my iPhone.

[theeyres]

Several thoughts here: First Keystone is not the only one to use cardboard--all of them do. Period.

Second, you will notice that most are going to solid fiberglass shells on the front and back caps. Why do you think? Because all manufacturers had horrid problems with that filon glued to cardboard crap.

Third, I had the same problem on a R-Vision trailer and it was determined to be poor gluing and they took it back to the factory and fixed it. But it was clearly within the warranty time period. All the problems are not due to water infiltration. Many are due to poor manufacturing.

Fourth, most units using this method are entry level units and they are built cheaply, thus this kind of stuff. High end units don't have this problem--but they are $40,000 or $50,000 plus.

No conclusions here...it's just the way it is.

[Beachnut]

rxbullett
Repairs look GREAT! You have the exact same front cap as my Outback 230RS has on it.

We were camping for the last 10 days down at Emma Woods State Park in Ventura, CA. (The "park" sits right on the very edge of the pacific ocean, and is all of just the old abandoned section of the original hwy 1 - built in 1927 per the concrete road stampings.) I noticed SO MANY of the trailers in the "park", all had the "Filon" front caps. So it is not just Keystone using it, but all across many manufacturers. I also noticed very very few newer trailers use aluminum siding... After 10 days of salt air, and even some spray from the high tide waves crashing, I washed & waxed our entire trailer. It is now sitting at Sky River RV for service, and inspection as this thread made me decide to have the "Pro's" look over it for roof sealant, and caulking. I did see a much older Outback trailer in the State park, (probably early to mid 2000's), an old rental trailer from its numbered markings on it. Its front cap was Filon, and actually looked OLD, weathered, but not bubbled, and still "OK". So maybe their is hope in ours lasting 10 years or so...

[FlaTraveler]

I noticed bubbling near the passenger side marker light on front panel. After several weeks of attempting to contact vendors for their warranty (HAHA) I finally heard from Keystone telling me that the sealant around the light must either have gone bad or had a "void". Well, a void would be shoddy workmanship. Also informed me that I should be resealing all fittings, etc every 2 months. Seriously? The unit is not even two years old.
Looks like my son and I are going to have to learn small bubble repair.
Has anyone else tried the kits advertised? The area is only about 1-1/2 sf.

And which campers are not under the THOR umbrella?

[JRTJH]

FlaTraveler,

Sorry to hear about your front cap delamination. I don't know of anyone who has attempted a self repair of a 1.5 sq ft area successfully. Most owners either rely on the dealership or find a competent fiberglass repair shop (usually a marine dealer/repair facility) to do that big an area. Of course that really depends on your level of experience in fiberglass repair.

Kodiak travel trailers are produced by Dutchman, however just recently Keystone took over management of the Dutchman line of RV's. Keystone was not involved in the manufacture of your two+ year old Kodiak, but at this time, they do manage the warranty for Dutchman RV's that still have a warranty remaining. Since yours is older than one year, there is no warranty remaining, and that might be a factor on how Keystone responded to you.

As for your question about what RV's are NOT under the THOR umbrella, here's the ones that are owned/managed by THOR, so any other's would probably not be, but as rapidly as things change in the RV industry, THOR may well have bought controlling interest in some of those that are not on this list.

Airstream, all models

CrossRoads RV (Sunset Trail, Cruiser, Zinger, Z-1, Rushmore, Elevation, Redwood and Hampton),

Dutchmen Manufacturing (Aerolite, Aspen Trail, Coleman, Denali, Dutchmen, Infinity, Kodiak, Razorback, Rubicon and Voltage),

Heartland Recreational Vehicles (Landmark, Bighorn, Big Country, Gateway, ElkRidge, Sundance, North Trail, Wilderness, Prowler, Trail Runner, Fairfield, Cyclone, Road Warrior, Torque and the Breckenridge),

Keystone RV (Alpine, Avalanche, Bullet, Carbon, Cougar, Cougar Half-Ton, Cougar High Country, Cougar XLite, Energy, Fireside, Fuzion, Hideout, Hornet, Impact, Laredo, Montana, Montana High Country, Mountaineer, Outback, Outback Terrain, Passport, Premier, Raptor, Residence, Retreat, Springdale, Sprinter, Sprinter Copper Canyon, Sprinter Wide Body, Summerland, Sydney, Vantage),

Livin’ Lite RV (Quicksilver, Camplite, Axxess, Quicksilver VRV, Bearcat, Jeep and Polaris),

Thor Motor Coach (Four Winds, Hurricane, Windsport, Chateau, Daybreak, Challenger, Tuscany, Outlaw, Palazzo and A.C.E.)

Additionally, you should be aware the "FILON" the fiberglass substrate used in RV skin is a registered trademark and is produced by Crane Composites,
23525 W Eames, Channahon, IL 60410. No matter what brand of RV you buy, if it's fiberglass, it will either have the same skin as your Keystone or it will be an RV manufacturer adaptation of FILON.

Also, Lippert Industries produces almost all the RV frames, doors, windows, plumbing supplies, showers, faucets, furniture, mattresses, and almost all other components (excluding appliances) for all manufacturers of RV's. So, no matter where you look in the RV world, you'll find essentially the same materials in any RV manufactured that were used in your Keystone.

Not defending Keystone, but if you read the owner's manual, you'll find the following:

Warranty Exclusions:

• Routine maintenance including, without limitation, caulking, re-caulking and waxing of the body of the recreational vehicle, tightening screws, brake squeak/lock-up/adjustment, latches, locks, combustion systems, changing fuses, or light bulbs, and maintaining the air conditioning and heating systems;

• Damage or loss caused in whole or in part by exposure to natural or atmospheric elements, corrosive chemicals, ash or fumes generated or released by vehicles, collision, road hazards, rock chips, condensation, or any other source;

Also, included in the owner's manual are the following:

It is the responsibility of the owner to maintain the recreational vehicle as described in the Care and Maintenance section of the Owner’s Manual including taking whatever preventative measures necessary to maintain the exterior sealants of the unit and to prevent foreseeable secondary moisture or water damage to the unit from rain, plumbing leaks, condensation and other natural accumulation of water in the unit.

Other Wall Attachments These can include but are not limited to compartment doors, door holders, range vent, refer vent, lights, awning feet, water fills, cable hatches, furnace vents, grab handles, speakers, receptacles, water heater, etc. Every six months, inspect these areas for sealant gaps/voids, cracks, shrinkage, etc. and reseal as necessary. Please consult your local Keystone dealer for assistance if needed.

CAUTION ABOUT SEALANTS - Be careful when selecting a sealant, as it is not recommended to use 2 different sealants on top of each other. To give you some personal experience with sealants, we had a Springdale RV prior to our current Cougar. The sealant on some of the windows in it failed about 4 months after purchase and the dealer resealed them. That was not covered by the Keystone warranty, however he did not charge us for the work. After 2 years of ownership, several more windows and at least half the clearance lights needed resealing. I did that work myself along with checking the roof. I check all the sealant on my RV every 4 or 5 months, which for us, in Michigan means in the spring when we get the trailer ready for camping and in the fall when we winterize it. In Florida, you might want to check your sealant on the roof, windows and light even more frequently since UV from sunlight and the heat of sitting outside will damage/destroy the sealant even faster than it will in our less sunny climate.

Good luck with your repair, but again, most leave something as significant as fiberglass repair of the size you mention to the professionals.

[FlaTraveler]

I do have many friends in the marine industry in South Florida so I may consult with a few before proceeding.
I was pretty certain Dutchman was not a Keystone brand when we bought the unit 21 months ago. Receiving responses from Keystone threw me. We have had good luck with their products.
We do remove and replace roof edge sealants periodically as well as treat the rubber.
The idea that a light fixture should have a sealant that would fail in such a relatively short time stuns me. I have seen many similar applications where a simple rubber gasket is installed and lasts a decade or more. It is a shame that a manufacturer cut about 20 cents of quality in such an integral place.
I will say that our ac also went just a month ago and dometic took care of it without blinking. The repair shop actually had to do a double take as they had the exact unit in the week before with the same problem. That sounds like Dutchman was cutting corners and pulling a "Wal-Mart", buying factory rejects or seconds.

[JRTJH]

I can't tell you if Dutchman is buying seconds/factory defects or not, but I'm thinking (personal opinion) that they wouldn't be supervised by Keystone unless someone in their management team really "stepped in it" somewhere in the past and simply getting rid of him wasn't able to solve the problem. I'd think it was a pretty serious management flaw that led to that kind of internal organizational rearrangement. Something pretty significant happened at Dutchman for this kind of change in management.

As for putting gaskets behind the clearance lights, I've been dealing with Peterson and Bargman lights for well over 40 years and I've never seen an RV application with a gasket behind the clearance lights in any RV I've owned or worked on. (motorhomes and Airstreams excepted). I would think a big part of it is the previous "corrugated aluminum" skin that was used for many years. It's bent "funny" and a flat light probably wouldn't seal properly with a gasket, so they used sealant which was a much better solution. When fiberglass started being used, it was easier to keep the same process for both skins as they both rolled down the same assembly line. Then, when fiberglass became the most popular, the process never changed because there wasn't any "real advantage" to changing things on the line where everyone was already trained on the established procedure. All the lights from "most" manufacturers (probably 95% plus) are all sealed with no gaskets used. Another "afterthought" is that the lights are installed on a pretty flexible surface where they gasket may deform the surface rather than the surface pull the gasket tight to prevent leaks???? Just a theory, I've no proof of that.....

If I were you, I'd look closely as the sealant in all the compartment doors, main doors, windows, reefer stack vents, hot water heater, tail lights, fresh water fill ports, and anything else that is "screwed to" and "sealed behind" on the skin of your RV. If there's a leak behind a clearance light, there's most likely more sealant dried, pulled away or defective in those places.....

Good Luck,

[FlaTraveler]

John
The original furnace installation was tilted inward so that if it rained, water drained into the unit. Fortunately, we caught this before warranty ran out. It took nearly 2 months for Dutchman to send the replacement parts to the dealer.
The ac installation is such that there is no airflow to most points in the unit. Replacing the original spinning diffusers has helped, although we have not been able to eliminate the supply air bleeding into the return at the unit mounting.
Enough problems that if we were not upside down, we would get rid of it.
When we check the roof seals we inspect all the seals.
Jeff

[JRTJH]

This is "off topic" for this thread, but air conditioner duct leakage is a significant issue with almost all RV's. There is an "air dam" built into the warm air collection box that separates it from the cold air return section of the plenum. Additionally, almost all "quickly installed" air registers leak into the ceiling cavity. Using aluminum foil tape (not cloth duck take) to rebuild the plenum separator and to seal the circular air registers will almost always result in better air movement through the air conditioner system.

Here's one thread on the topic, there are many others. Note the very good pictures one member posted in the 27th response which is on page 3.

http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6456&highlight=conditioner+duct

[billb800si]

Just a quick note folks.
The next time someone mentions that "Amish Quality" think about all these remarks.
Later,

[JRTJH]

Just a quick note folks.
The next time someone mentions that "Amish Quality" think about all these remarks.
Later,

Bill, if you go to almost any "authentic" Amish store, you'll find "true Amish quality" If you go to most any "fast paced assembly line" you'll find Amish workers who blend well with the other folks...... They all want to hurry up, punch out and get the he** outa Dodge........

[FlaTraveler]

The amish seemingly are willingly loaning their name for "quality" it would appear. Shal we just say there are sellouts everywhere? Look at Gucci?

[JRTJH]

I don't know that the Amish are the ones loaning their heritage so much as it's the manufacturer's "advertising" that the RV's are "built with Amish quality" when in reality it's more that some Amish are working there, making a living and the RV manufacturers are "capitalizing" on the "name" and trying to sell something for what it's not......

Unless management is largely composed of Amish "decision makers" and they are in control of marketing, who is making that kind of decision, it's sort of like using any religious or ethnic "brand" and making money from it because one or two of that "type" are working on the floor. It's sort of like changing "Mamma Leone's Spaghetti" to "Mother Lynn's Spaghetti" or changing "Chef Boyardee" to "Chef Gordon" Would hiring one janitor who is of Italian descent improve the authenticity of either of those brands? It's all about marketing an image.

When we go to Ohio, we often visit Amish communities near our daughter's home. There's a significant difference (improvement) in the quality of what is for sale there as compared to many of the "Amish stores" that are scattered around Michigan. I've been in a couple of those "Amish stores" down around Grand Rapids and noticed that when you turn some of those "quality items" over, there's a "Hencho en Chine" sticker on the bottom...... I've yet to find one of those stickers in a "real Amish store"

I don't know that the Amish are "selling out" as much as Keystone and others are "zeroing in"

[billb800si]

...
When we go to Ohio, we often visit Amish communities near our daughter's home. There's a significant difference (improvement) in the quality of what is for sale there as compared to many of the "Amish stores" that are scattered around Michigan. I've been in a couple of those "Amish stores" down around Grand Rapids and noticed that when you turn some of those "quality items" over, there's a "Hencho en Chine" sticker on the bottom...... I've yet to find one of those stickers in a "real Amish store"I don't know that the Amish are "selling out" as much as Keystone and others are "zeroing in"
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We also visit the Berlin- Walnut Creek area in Ohio to observe Amish. Usually we stay at the Evergreen RV Park while in that area. Last time we took some friends with us. This friend was going to buy an expensive quilt and then she noticed the tag said, "Made in China". She was really upset. Told her that's the way it is anymore.
In fact we will be leaving for Florida in a couple of weeks and while down there we plan on visiting the "Pinecraft" area. This is where the Amish migrate each year to stay warm, like the rest of us.
Happy trails,

[JRTJH]

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We also visit the Berlin- Walnut Creek area in Ohio to observe Amish. Usually we stay at the Evergreen RV Park while in that area. Last time we took some friends with us. This friend was going to buy an expensive quilt and then she noticed the tag said, "Made in China". She was really upset. Told her that's the way it is anymore.
In fact we will be leaving for Florida in a couple of weeks and while down there we plan on visiting the "Pinecraft" area. This is where the Amish migrate each year to stay warm, like the rest of us.
Happy trails,

We've not experienced that "yet" :( Down around Chillicothe, there are a number of Amish communities with furniture mills, stores that sell handwork, bakeries, general stores that sell a variety of meats, vegetables, fruit, spices, the majority of which are made right there in the community. We had some lawn furniture made since they didn't have the color my DW wanted and we watched as they started working on it. The next trip, we picked it up. There were no "tags on the bottom" of any of it. There is a produce/farm stock auction weekly in one of the communities where you can bid on fresh produce, livestock, etc along with wholesalers who come in to buy truckloads of produce. At those auctions, there are more buggies, wagons and horses than there are trucks and cars. I would be disappointed to see what your friend experienced, but as you say, it may be "just the way it is"

[LHH06R]

Bought my 2007 Outback 1 year ago. Saw the damage and the guy came down a little. I wonder if he knew...I sure didn't. Fast forward to the end if three week trip and the difference is highly noteable. Wondering if I can do the repair myself... ��

[mskeyspirate]

I just today had the same experience with the same reply. Apparently Keystone only expects their products to last up until the end of the warranty period. Pitiful that they will not back their products better than this. I plan to do my best to spread the word regarding Keystone products.