Questions on insulation - full-timers

[lachristopher]

My husband and I are living in our 2003 Keystone 31' travel trailer since he became ill last year while we were traveling through Oregon (yes, we are still in Oregon). I have a couple of questions on getting ready for the cold temps. We survived last year, but it wasn't pretty!

We have a 12' slide and even though I have laid two large area rugs over the existing carpeting for some warmth, the floor from the exterior wall of the slide up to and including the floor a little ways into the main structure is still so cold. I was thinking about putting some kind of a wrap around the entire unit, but don't know what would work and how to affix whatever we end up with (i.e., insulation board, rolled wrap, etc.).

Please keep in mind when replying that I am 61 years old and cannot get on my knees or bend very well at all. My husband is still in a very weak condition and on dialysis and cannot assist in any way. As well, we can't afford to hire anyone, so this needs to be something I can do myself. (tx)

[hankaye]

lachristopher, Howdy;

To do anything that may work you will either have to get on your knees or
find a kind soul to do the work for you. Good skirting needs to be attached at
the top as well as the bottom.
This is a link to an article I used to help guide me thru my first Winter in Central Utah
when I had my TT. http://www.byexample.net/projects/current/trailer_skirting/index.html
Perhaps if you contact some of the churches in your area they may be able to
help or aim you in the direction of someone that will.

hankaye

[lachristopher]

Thank you very much! I'll take a look at your link and put some feelers out to the local spiritual community.
Luci

[Bob Landry]

The only way to really assess your trailer and formulate a plan to winter-proof it is to have someone drop the coroplast and see how the bottom is insulated. Keystone put a Polar Package sticker on my trailer and I'm trying to figure out why. In the course of dropping the coroplast, I found no insulation at all, and nothing that even looked like it would keep the pipes warm enough to survive a hard freeze, let alone several months in a cold climate.
Personally, I take a dim view of Keystone using a sales gimmick and promoting their trailers to live in that type of climate. I'm fortunate to live in a temperate climate and do not have to endure that much harsh cold. I know others are not that fortunate.
I'm going to add insulation to mine as a part of an ongoing project, but I would have probably assumed that my trailer would handle about anything had I not had a chance to look under it.
IMHO, I would not trust any Keystone product, regardless of cost, to be suitable for extended cold weather living with out some serious modification.

[michol02]

You may be able to use 4' x 8' insulated foam sheets. They're lightweight and easy to cut. Might not look very good, but you could duct tape them to the camper and stake the bottom with nails or small spikes into the ground( if you're not on cement pad). If you're parked on a pad, you may be able to wedge them between the pad and the bottom of the camper. Sounds kinda "redneck", I'm just throwin out a suggestion.:iws:
4370

[hankaye]

lachristopher, Howdy;

Visit with some of your neighbors and ask them questions about what does
and what hasn't worked for them. I'm sure that some will be more than
willing to give you some guidance and some good information. Look at what
they have done, take notes. these will help when you can talk to some of the
clergy or other organizations that are in the helping folks out that need help.
Don't be bashful.

hankaye

[Raistlin12]

We recently (October 4) purchased an Outback 316RL, with a, supposed, Arctic Barrier. The claim is that it is an all season trailer. We woke up, this morning, to 14deg temps, in the Dallas area of TX, and frozen kitchen and hot water pipes. I only hope they didn't rupture.

My question to you experienced full-timers is, how do we prevent this in the future, besides staying the winter on the gulf cost?

Needless to say, we're less than thrilled with our new purchase.

[geo]

We recently (October 4) purchased an Outback 316RL, with a, supposed, Arctic Barrier. The claim is that it is an all season trailer. We woke up, this morning, to 14deg temps, in the Dallas area of TX, and frozen kitchen and hot water pipes. I only hope they didn't rupture.

My question to you experienced full-timers is, how do we prevent this in the future, besides staying the winter on the gulf cost?

Needless to say, we're less than thrilled with our new purchase.

Raistlin12 -

Yes, it is chilly in DFW this morning. There will be others who will chime in on this subject. Basically, having the "Arctic Package" means you got a sticker next to the door and a 2.5" duct off the furnace that has tees to share some warm air on all the tank valve areas. If you use the Search function of the Forum, you will find a long discussion on the Arctic/Polar/Glacier/etc. Package from Keystone, I believe in the Repairs area. If you are logged in and click on my login name "geo" on this post, you will go to my "home page". There under Statistics, you will find a link for "All posts started by geo". Click on that and look back two years ago. You will find my series of posts concerning installation of tank heaters, insulation in the underbelly, and work I did to make our Alpine a four season RV. There are others who will post after me, who have done similar measures to make their RV livable in cold weather. If you contact Keystone, you will learn that Keystone considers their RVs to be 3 season campers, and if you look at the warranty, you might find that the warranty is void if you use the RV for full-timing.

I'm counting on more input from others as I tap this out on the Droid riding the Green Line. So who will add to my comments here?

Ron

[JRTJH]

Rastlin12,

Welcome to the forum. It's good to have you as a member, but not so good that you joined and are asking about winter package protection "after the fact" with all your pipes frozen and your "faith in Keystone" diminished.

Fact is, very VERY few RV's are capable of remaining full function in freezing temperatures and those that are (most often the high end models) use an extraordinary amount of propane to do so.

If you use the search feature located in the blue bar at the top of every forum page, type in "arctic" or "polar" and you'll get literally hundreds of threads associated with the limitations of RV use in freezing temperatures and how well (or how poorly) the "Polar Plus", "Polar", and "Arctic" packages function to protect our RV's.

There are some things that you can do to help improve your "survivability" in freezing temperatures. Many of them are found in the same threads you'll see with the above two searches.

Good luck and try to stay "cool headed" while you're figuring out how to warm up your RV.

[Raistlin12]

Ron and Jon,

Thanks for the quick turnaround. I was really afraid that was the answer. We are headed to Corpus, in a couple of weeks, so I should be able to do the upgrades we need for "cooler" weather.

[Festus2]

Raistlin12

Nothing new to add to the responses by John and Ron except to echo their remarks about RV's - of any stripe - being all-weather, four season units. They aren't - far from it! Unless the owner carries out some modifications similar to those done by Geo, all of ads and stickers about Arctic/Polar/Glacier, etc.) are both meaningless and misleading.

Not that it will make you feel any better, but you are not the first person to be taken in by these deceptive ads and you won't be the last.

[geo]

Fact is, very VERY few RV's are capable of remaining full function in freezing temperatures and those that are (most often the high end models) use an extraordinary amount of propane to do so.


John -

I am actually pleased to say that I do disagree with one point you have made. :D Taking a que from some members like Mikell, I have been able to balance the use of electricity and propane to give very comfortable living inside the RV. Now true, I have a fully insulated underbelly (what would you expect from me? "bouncey: ) and 1.5" thick insulated storage compartment doors. But I have an electric heater in the basement and the sliding doors to the utility basement open near the heater. The heaters are adjusted to run in coordination with the furnace - and the furnace runs about once every 15 - 20 minutes for about 4 - 5 minutes. Late yesterday afternoon, I had 13 pounds of propane left in the "in use" tank, and this morning I checked and found that I was still using that same tank, though I will probably have to have it filled this afternoon when I get home. During the "ice storm of the decade" a few weeks ago, I used a little more than 40 pounds of propane over 5 days - along with many KWH of electricity. So far, we have yet to have a freeze-up, and I am very hopeful that we weather below 0F temperatures in the future.

Now that said, no - we no longer own a Keystone (as is indicated in the signature line). However, our present RV, in which we full-time, was constructed much in the same manner that I modified our Alpine to be: tank heaters, full underbelly insulation (rock wool insulation this time, not fiberglass), all plumbing isolated from metal frame units by a layer of insulation, warmed air supplied to utility basement independent of furnace, etc. And, yes, I am guilty of purchasing a manufacturer that some might consider a "higher priced unit" than Keystone. :o But I also know that there is a mud-logger in northwest Oklahoma who is alone in warm nights and RO drinking water, spending hours in a cold well-site trailer making measurements on drilling mud looking forward to returning to his used, toasty Alpine fifth wheel modified by someone he doesn't know.

As always,

Ron

[cabinfever]

I wouldn't be too concerned about the plumbing lines breaking after just one freeze if your lines are PEX. PEX has a very good expansion ratio and can withstand freezing very well. As for the fittings, that's the weakness in the freeze, but PEX fittings also withstand freeze better than any other plumbing material. The places to be concerned are short runs between fittings, not enough room for PEX to expand without failure. Hope all is dry!!

[mikell]

A little while ago -6 and windy with who knows how much snow. The weekends supposed to be above freezing so the heat pump can work for 4-5 days. 3 100 lb tanks so far since fall @ $67 each so not too bad


4758

That picture doesn't do the day justice I'll get another

4759

Better idea of the beautiful winter day were having

[tdawg]

mickell that looks nasty

[mikell]

-29 windchill out now and all's well inside. Don't really know how much snow they said 18" this morning and it's been snowing all day

[Festus2]

The weather is certainly a "hot" topic but this thread is about insulating an RV.

There are weather-related threads in the Odds 'n Ends and Campfire Chatter sections of the forum. If you want to talk about the weather, please try the threads in those sections if you want to give us a daily up-date on the conditions in your area.

Thank you.

[wwrogerd]

First time on here. Question concerning winter conditions. Why, after sending big $$$ do we still have to spend more $$ in order to get what we thought was included in a cold weather package. Why doesn't Keystone comment on this. We could have purchased a less expensive TT and done our own up-grades and save $$. Just ask'in:confused:

[Festus2]

First, welcome to the forum. Secondly, much has been written here about Keystone's various cold weather packages. Call the package what you may - Arctic, Polar, Thermal, Glacier, etc.) it is nothing more than a misleading advertising gimmick which, if you believe it, might give you the impression that it is able to withstand long periods of freezing temperatures on its own.

As you have come to realize this is not the case and; unless you do some upgrades and modifications on your own, your unit is basically a 3 season camper - depending of course where you live and travel. In Idaho, definitely not a 4 season camper!

Keystone is not connected with this forum which, if you look at the red disclaimer at the bottom of the page, clearly points that out. Unless you as a consumer passes your concerns about this cold weather stuff to Keystone, they certainly won't be making any statements on here.

Apparently, Keystone has made some effort in some of their recent models to upgrade their RV's to better withstand freezing temperatures but I haven't read of anyone who has one of these upgraded models and has tested it out in real life situations.

Yes, it is both annoying and frustrating but Keystone does not appear to be too worried about its "cold weather package" gimmick. I suppose there are enough folks who believe it and buy it so why change?

[Terry&Carol]

Has any one used spray foam insulation, like what is used in hosing?

[JRTJH]

Spray on foam would be functional in some areas, but the problem with using spray foam is that it adheres to everything. In the future, should you need to access the frame, the undercarriage, some of the wiring that runs under the floor, the tanks or ??? If it is all sealed in foam, it would be very difficult to "dig it out" to work on anything.

There are some people who have used fiberglass insulation, placed it strategically and then used spray on foam over that with the expectation that the foam would help insulate and seal, but not adhere to anything but the fiberglass. Using that strategy, it would be easier to remove if necessary.

As inexpensive as foam is and as easy as it is to work with, I would think that if it were a "win-win" the industry would be using it more than they do. I'd think it through from all the angles before getting too far along on a project to apply significant amounts of foam under the floor.

[geo]

Has any one used spray foam insulation, like what is used in hosing?

Do a search on user "mguay". Mike used spray foam to insulate the underbelly of his Alpine. One needs to protect and cover the toothed rail and many of the connections, wires, hydraulics, and Pex piping. I used Fiberglass, which itself is a mess!

Ron