Diesel Engine Considerations?

[gwvwadc]

I am thinking about going to a good used diesel 3/4 ton truck. This will be a primary vehicle used to go back and forth to work, run errands and of course to pull our TT.

I have done some research, so I understand the differences in HP and torque between gas and diesel engines.

I have a few questions about diesel that I know some of you can help with. I would like honest answers (not opinions about who makes the best).

What would be a good mileage on the engine? When I look around, I see anywhere from 60k to over 100K - of course I know less mileage means more added to the price of the truck. With proper maintenance, what kind of life could I expect?

What added costs of maintenance can I expect? I know oil changes will be more expensive, but would like to know what other costs to expect. I also understand fuel will cost more.

Any information will be appreciated.

(tx)

[Outbackmel]

Diesel engines require more expensive maintenance, period. BUT, having had many gas and my first diesel, for me, worth the cost. Features you mentioned, along with exhaust brake, make towing a dream. When I need it, stepping into that turbo is heaven. not to mention that even without an rv, you can command respect from idiot drivers. We live in Atlanta, nuff said!
At age 70, with 45,000 miles on the 2008 model, no doubt it will far outlast my towing years left in me. Already looking at 31ft class c, double slide. Properly maintained, at least 250,000 miles would be a minimum start for longevity.
AND lastly, the resale value is going to be better simply because of the dynamic of supply vs demand. Hard to find nice diesel trucks people want to part with.
That be my personal opinion.:D

NO.YOU CANNOT BUY MINE, AT LEAST, NOT YET! "bouncey:

[jbsmith]

In my opinion, worry less about the engine and more about the chassis, suspension components, and transmission as the miles rack up. Each model/year has their quirks, but most of the big three motors are solid beyond the life of most other major systems.

Older model Rams reportedly had weaker transmissions, I've not had anything major with mine in 80k...knock on wood. My Cummins 5.9L motor has been flawless and actually runs better when towing. However, my model year had weak front end components, ate two sets of upper/lower ball joints, a drag link, and needed a new steering box at 60k. Now I'm fighting some body rest on the bed. Newer models solved a lot of these issues, but introduced a few of their own.

I change oil myself at 200 hrs of operation, using 3 GALLONS!!! of Rotella 15W40. I spend approx $50-$75 on each service, but it would be a LOT more at the shop. Few convenient lube places even stock the oil or know how to cleanly (without dumping a couple of quarts down the side if the block) to remove/replace filters etc.

The differential and transmission service intervals shouldn't change too much from the gasser, but if you're getting the diesel to tow heavier or farther, you should probably take that into consideration. My model year Ram didn't originally include drain plugs on the front/rear diff or transmission pan.

You'll also need to factor in the additional cost of fuel filters and DEF depending on the year/model. I've recently noticed that DEF us much more readily available. Depending on where you live, you might need to plug in the block heater in the winter. That's a small hidden cost. I'll also occasionally run a fuel additive like Power Service. Fuel obviously costs more, and you'll probably want to be a little picky where you buy, e.g. someplace that turns over a lot to reduce the chance of water, algae, etc. Expect to get 10-12 mpg towing and 17-20 mpg highway, maybe a bit more if you get a two wheel drive. I use my truck as a daily driver and average 12-13 mpg...but do a LOT of short trip and city driving. The DEF trucks seem to average about 10-20% better mpg. You can research what others are getting on http://fuelly.com

In my opinion, I'd buy a nice late model truck starting 2010 with no more than 50k. That will put you into a range of relative fuel efficient trucks that have already worked most of the EPA mandated bugs out of their emissions. You might even still have a little power train warranty left. You'll also likely get a better interest rate on finance to cover the higher purchase cost. Otherwise, go the other direction and look for a 2007 or older truck in good overall mechanical condition.

[JRTJH]

Very good advice so far. Essentially almost all diesel engines are going to be "bulletproof" and you will probably have little or no issues with the actual engine. (there are some exceptions). Most of the problems will be with ancillary engine components like the turbo, oil cooler, exhaust system, electrical system, and lastly, the body/chassis. Remember, on almost all trucks, there is little to no difference in the actual truck and drive train except for the diesel or gas "block of bolts" up front.

So all of the "rules of shopping" for a gas truck still apply to shopping for a diesel. Good luck with your search, and it's not always the "low mileage" truck that is the best buy when it comes to a diesel.

[Jim W]

Here is a free PDF booklet that can be down loaded from Turbo Diesel Registry .COM . It is called Turbo Diesel Buying Guide. All though the booklet is gear to all years of the Cummins/Ram trucks the same principles can be applied to the other two truck manufactures.

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/magazines/buyersguide.phtml

Now I would suggest that instead of buying use I would look into buying a new 2013/2014 Ram truck with the Cummins diesel. These trucks have the best in class towing along with some great features such the option of order a trailer prep package that includes a 7-pin connector in the bed with a gooseneck adapter plate and 4-reifnforec 5th wheel hitch mounting points for the rails. These trucks also have the best in class exhaust brake which has 240 lb-ft of breaking ability, there is also the auto exhaust brake which when enabled to allow the truck to maintain the set speed when descending a grade. If you want to read about some of the features on the 2014 truck here is a link to the 2014 trucks and their major features.

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/

Jim W.

[JRTJH]

Jim,

While I certainly have no "beef" with Dodge trucks, all the manufacturers advertise "best in class" features. What is "best in class"? Advertisers (not manufacturer engineering) usually comes up with these "gimmicks." Ford advertises "best in class", GMC advertises "best in class", Chevrolet advertises "best in class" as does RAM.

The class can easily be manipulated to be whatever "excludes" the other two manufacturers from the feature. I well remember when Ford was advertising "best in class" HP/Torque with the new 6.7L diesel. GM came out with the new version of the Duramax advertising "best in class" HP/Torque. Both can't be right, but if you follow the little * behind the "best in class" you'll see that one indicated "full size pickups with GVW above 11,500 lbs" and the other indicated, "full size pickups with maximum towing package (late availibility in some areas)".

Best in class is NOT apples and apples, it's carving out a little nich in the market with cleaver advertising. All the manufacturers do this, not just Dodge or Ford or GM. Remember Toyota's "best in class above 300,000 pounds" with the Space Shuttle.

[Cougarfamily]

Here is a free PDF booklet that can be down loaded from Turbo Diesel Registry .COM . It is called Turbo Diesel Buying Guide. All though the booklet is gear to all years of the Cummins/Ram trucks the same principles can be applied to the other two truck manufactures.

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/magazines/buyersguide.phtml

Now I would suggest that instead of buying use I would look into buying a new 2013/2014 Ram truck with the Cummins diesel. These trucks have the best in class towing along with some great features such the option of order a trailer prep package that includes a 7-pin connector in the bed with a gooseneck adapter plate and 4-reifnforec 5th wheel hitch mounting points for the rails. These trucks also have the best in class exhaust brake which has 240 lb-ft of breaking ability, there is also the auto exhaust brake which when enabled to allow the truck to maintain the set speed when descending a grade. If you want to read about some of the features on the 2014 truck here is a link to the 2014 trucks and their major features.

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/

Jim W.

Funny, I don't recall him asking for an OPINION on a Brand of truck. Appears you are attempting to hijack thread. And there are more important things in life than just "tow ratings".

[Javi]

I am thinking about going to a good used diesel 3/4 ton truck. This will be a primary vehicle used to go back and forth to work, run errands and of course to pull our TT.

I have done some research, so I understand the differences in HP and torque between gas and diesel engines.

I have a few questions about diesel that I know some of you can help with. I would like honest answers (not opinions about who makes the best).

What would be a good mileage on the engine? When I look around, I see anywhere from 60k to over 100K - of course I know less mileage means more added to the price of the truck. With proper maintenance, what kind of life could I expect?

In most cases it isn't unrealistic to see 250K from a modern diesel, although some may require a good amount of upkeep expense. Some have trouble with head bolts and others with turbos and radiators ect. Others have had trouble with transmissions. Do your research and you should be good.

What added costs of maintenance can I expect? I know oil changes will be more expensive, but would like to know what other costs to expect. I also understand fuel will cost more.

Oil changes are more expensive because of the amount of oil needed 13 - 17 quarts in some cases versus 5 or 6 for a gasser. Yes diesel is a few cents more than gas but you also have to consider the fact that most of the diesels made within the past 3 or so years also get a good bit more mpg than their gasser counterparts both empty and pulling.

Any information will be appreciated.

(tx)

Diesels are the way to go if you use your truck for hauling or towing any kind of weight. I will say I drive mine daily to work and to the grocery store or out to dinner as well as tow and occasionally haul pallets of parts to customers.

Lastly I'm not a big fan of buying used vehicles unless I know the owner, just too many variables that can add up to disappointment and expense.

[tileman]

I say diesel that's all i have owned for the last 15 years :)

[Hansel]

My only advise is try getting a pre 2010 that's when most started going to the DEF(diesel exhaust fluid) which too me is a big pain in the rear.

But your going too find that this will turn into my truck is better than your's:rolleyes:

[Javi]

My only advise is try getting a pre 2010 that's when most started going to the DEF(diesel exhaust fluid) which too me is a big pain in the rear.

But your going too find that this will turn into my truck is better than your's:rolleyes:
DEF isn't really a pain... you only need to add it every 5K to 7K and it is available at the pump in most truck stops or even wally world in 2 1/2 gal containers..

[Ken / Claudia]

I will add, do yourself the biggest favor by testing at least one Chev, Dodge, Ford in your price range before you buy. They are all good, there maybe some things that you like better about one over another. Let us know what you get.

[BeerCan]

I will add, do yourself the biggest favor by testing at least one Chev, Dodge, Ford in your price range before you buy. They are all good, there maybe some things that you like better about one over another. Let us know what you get.
IMO this is the best advice in this thread.

[Trent McCain]

I'd agree, drive them all. I prefer Ford partly because we have a great small dealer that provides excellent service. I personally wouldn't buy a diesel for a daily driver, esp one that's 2008 and newer with a DPF, short trips are hard on them as they don't get hot enough to burn the soot out on a short trip. Keep in mind we live in a small town and you can be anywhere in 5 min. I have had times when I've had to run an short errand, and had to drive on the hiway to clean the DPF. I bought ours to do a job and it sits in the building otherwise. I see no point in having an expensive diesel truck as a daily driver unless you're full timing and don't have another option. I keep my cherry 1995 F150 for short trips. As for mileage, i'm not going to exagerate mine, I'm dissapointed in it...15.5 empty and around 8.5 loaded with 5th wheel in sig. It doesn't seem to make any difference if we pull the boat in tandem either. The Dodge boys claim significantly higher. As for the claims about 250K + mileage, sure it's true, but how many folks keep a truck that long....not many, and what shape wil the rest of it be in? I only average 5K a year with mine, but it'll pull anything I need and allow for future expansion. I have seriously thought about returning to gas if we trade, as I don't pull much. I like the power and performance of our F350, but we don't save anything driving it over a gasser. Your maint costs are higher, and when it flies to pieces, it'll cost more to put it back together. Also one must also consider that a modern fuel injected gas engine will run 150K + or more if maintained well. I purchased this 2009 6.4 F350 used with 39K two years ago as I knew the owner, he ordered it new. My folks have had 3 new Ford diesels '02 7.3 F250, '06 6.0 F350, and now '11 6.7 F350. Their 2011 will run circles around mine and get approx 1.5-2 mpg better in all situations. As for using DEF in the 2011+ trucks, don't worry about it, you fill the tank when it's serviced, and that will last untill the next scheduled service.

Trent

[aehjr]

Definitely drive them all. I drove all three before buying my 2013 F350 and there was something to like about all of them. I moved up from a Toyota Tundra because we are upgrading our trailer to a Fuzion toyhauler.

As far as towing and mileage...
I just got back from a 1300 mile camping trip in southern CO with the Ford. 710 miles of those miles were towing a Viewfinder V24FK (6500 lb gross) over high mountain passes (Monarch Pass, Dallas Divide, Lizard Head Pass, Cerro Summit). We averaged 13.9 mpg for the trip. When not towing, we were driving up mountain passes and 4WD roads to get to trailheads. Towing mileage was consistently 2-3 mpg better than the Tundra towing the same trailer last year. The truck also made it up the passes much more comfortably; 1500-2000 rpms feels better than 3500-4000 rpms. ;-)

My around town mileage has been in the 16-17 mpg range but with only 1800 miles on the truck to date (including the camping trip), I haven’t logged many “around town” miles and I expect that to improve as the engine gets more miles on it. A fellow I met in a campground on the trip claimed 15 mpg towing his 5th wheel and 19 without a trailer. A fellow I met at the Ford dealer with the same truck claimed 16 mpg towing and 18 mpg around town.

Good luck on your decision.

[Festus2]

A fellow I met in a campground on the trip claimed 15 mpg towing his 5th wheel and 19 without a trailer. A fellow I met at the Ford dealer with the same truck claimed 16 mpg towing and 18 mpg around town.

Good luck on your decision.

I'm impressed with that truck. :applause: Gotta get me one those. :rolleyes:

[Javi]

I'm impressed with that truck. :applause: Gotta get me one those. :rolleyes:

As you know the mileage claims for the new 6.7 Ford depend on many things, mine does get 20-23 on the hwy empty but I don't speed and we don't have much in the way of mountains. Towing the Passport I get 14-16 pretty much no matter what, but again I don't speed. Around town it stays around 16 but we don't have traffic and my truck rarely idles for more than a minute or three at a light. I also have 3:31 gears as opposed to a dually with 3:73's.

I expect the new Duramax is getting close to that if driven conservatively. I know my '96, '97 & '98 Dodges with 3:54's got 18-20 empty on the hwy and 14-15 towing 10K equipment trailers but they were only 8' high. The Dodges were often driven tank to tank between stops without ever being shut down.

[Festus2]

As you know the mileage claims for the new 6.7 Ford depend on many things, mine does get 20-23 on the hwy empty but I don't speed and we don't have much in the way of mountains. .

Javi -- I don't speed either but almost anywhere we go in BC there are mountains - can't get away from them. You're either going up or coming down. Only if we head south along the coast of WA and OR do we escape them. Towing on the flats is a rare experience for me so you can see why I am suspect of anyone who says they get 15 or 16 mpg. They certainly wouldn't be making those claims if they towed in these parts. But I do get it. :D

[Trent McCain]

My father sees 15.5-17.5 mpg empty and 8-10 loaded. with his F350 4x4 CC SRW. But he's got 3:73's. They pull a 2012 Montana 346LBQ. My 2009 F350 was ordered with 3:55's and I have no doubt 3:73's would have helped our towing mileage. For no more miles than we run, for me its not worth the extra taxes, insurance, and purchase price to upgrade to a 2011+ for the better mileage. I will say the new Ford diesel is awesome, very quiet, smooth and responsive. Dad likes theirs.

Trent

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[aehjr]

Javi -- I don't speed either but almost anywhere we go in BC there are mountains - can't get away from them. You're either going up or coming down. :D

I hear you on the going up or down. I live west of Colorado Springs and my daily commute includes an 1800' descent and climb every day. I get great mileage going to work; not so good going home each day. :)

[Trent McCain]

One other thing to conside is maint costs will be higher. Oil changes are over $100 compared to $30 for a gasser, On a 2008 and newer, eventually the DPF and catalyst will need cleaned. The fuel filter which is part of the water seperator is $80. To me, diesel is a luxury not a necessity. I'm 37 now, when I was a kid in the late 80's, everyone pulled with 460 Fords and 454 Chevrolets, gas was under a dollar and diesel was cheaper than that. It probably cost $2-2,500 for a diesel. Now diesel is higher than gasoline and it costs $7-9,000 extra for the diesel option. The only reason I have the F350, is I needed a heavy duty truck to pull our 5th wheel. I'm recently married and camped all my life, wanted to share that with my new wife and kids, so we purchased our first 5th wheel (91 Excel) and pulled with my ordered new 2008 F150 Lariat. It was ok for the few short trips, but eventually I could see upgrading 5th wheels and traveling more. I traded the 2008 with 16K mi in 2011 for this '09 F350 with 39K mi. I'm glad we did, as it handles this new to us 2008 Copper Canyon with ease, plus we have room to trade coachs again. We will probably hold on to this truck many years as it's loaded with options, in excellent condition, and I've got it accesorized just like I want it. In all honesty, I would have probably purchased this truck even if it had a V10 gas, just because I knew the history on it. One thing to also consider, atleast in our country (Kansas) is that a nice heavy duty truck is hard to find and commands good money. Most folks out here purchase a truck to use on the farm / job site to work. So they are used. I always take excellent care w/ maint records of my equipment, pickups, Kenworth trucks ect....my equipment pays my wage. I have no trouble selling trucks because of that. I can run this F350 to 150K mi and it'll look just as nice then as it does now, and still be worth fair money. The V10 wouldn't command near the resale value, but also wouldn't have the upfront costs associated with it either..

Trent

[SAD]

Diesel oil changes cost more... True...

Many quote $100 for a diesel oil change.... But my local Dodge dealer regularly runs a $69 special.

Many quote $30 for a gasser oil change... yet the quick lube place in town is consistently $49.

Diesel oil change interval is 2x to 3x as long.

My last fuel filter was $19 from the Dodge dealer.

Try and find the fuel filter in your gasser. It's integrated into the fuel pump/sending unit.

Repairs on both gasses and diesels are higher than anyone wants to pay... And I understand that diesels will likely be higher. Should also be less likely - debatable of course.

I just don't get the "higher maintenance cost" statements.

[Trent McCain]

Ok boys...here it is, went back in the file, I had the F350 in for it's yearly service in May before I left for harvest, only put about 5K mi a year on it.

To change oil and filter was $29.43 for the element, $59.70 for the oil, and $10 labor for a total of $99.13 at Ford

The fuel filters were $76.65 and labor is $43.38 for a total of $120.03

To service my wifes Windstar is $36 at Ford

I didn't dig up the reciept for the 1995 F150 with a 351, but if I remember correct it might be $45 with tax. so my original statement of $36 for a fullsize pickup is probably alittle low.

Now I admit it's far more expensive to have the dealer service my equipment over what I could do it myself. But here's the deal. I own/operate a business, and that consumes my time. I also depend on my equipment to make a living, so it's a wiser decision for me to have the dealer take care of service and maint/repairs for me. I don't have the time to mess with it. Also, They have detailed records, as do I of everything that has been performed on my equipment. Most I've purchased new. That makes it extremely easy for me to sell. "Here are the records, this truck has been serviced at this dealer since new, you are more than welcome to visit with them." I also do it from a warranty standpoint. Ford or Kenworth/Cummins can probably never deny a claim on me due to poor maintainence. If the dealer performs it....it's documented. If I change it, sure it's documented, but I'm not a mechanic. I also have a very knowledgeble service department, that can perform any updates, etc while it is in their shop. Everyone has a different opinion, but you have to decide what works best for you.

Here's a simple one: Lets assume oil changes and fuel.

I service my diesel at 5K and the gassers at 3K using my costs.

Diesel Oil change at $100 / 5,000 mi. = $.02 per mile driven.
Gas Oil change at $50 / 3,000 mi. = $.016 per mile driven.

Fuel cost. I'll use my actual mileage (which Fords are not known for great mileage) and current fuel price.

Towing

Diesel $3.95gal / 8.5mpg = $.464 per mile fuel cost.
Gas $3.45gal / 6mpg ? =$.575 per mile fuel cost.

Non-towing

Diesel $3.95gal /15.5mpg = $.254 per mile fuel cost.
Gas $3.45gal / 13mpg ? =$.265.

I had to guess on the gas mileage as I don't currently operate ne in the F250-350 class. We do have several mid 90's F250s on the farm that we use for daily drivers and they can achieve 11-12 empty and most anyone I've talked to claims around 13 empty with a V10 Ford. So if you pull alot of miles in a year then with these numbers it might start to pay back in several years time. But my scenerio didn't account for increased interest (if financed) and higher property tax (based on market value) if you stae collects it. (Kansas does) It also doesn't account for recouping a higher percentage of purchase price when you sell it. Old school Powerstrokes and Cummins command a premium, they practically will give a 460 Ford away now. Now of course if your mileages are different or there is less spread between fuel prices, then that will make a huge difference. I still will argue that we buy them to to a job, and it's a luxury to have it....I sure don't run enough miles in a year to justify it over a gasser, other than I wanted it.

Trent

[Hansel]

DEF isn't really a pain... you only need to add it every 5K to 7K and it is available at the pump in most truck stops or even wally world in 2 1/2 gal containers..

I know, but these new exhaust systems I know with the Fords have caused some engine issue's. For me it's just too much stuff interferring with the flow of the exhaust for my taste. As far as the upkeep of a diesel oil,fuel,coolant,etc... if you have some mechanical knowledge and can turn a wrench, you can save yourself some money by doing them yourself, my last fuel filter was $26 changed it myself, oil changed was around $55, so I'm saving some money and taking pride in keeping my diesel running strong for over 248,000 miles:D

[Trent McCain]

Dad hasn't had an issue with his 2011 Ford, but I have had several with my Cummins powered '09 and '10 Kenworths. Thankfully warranty covers it. Haven't had any issues with the engines themselves, just the emissions equip.....DPF's catalysts, turbo actuator, ERG coolers.

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[Trent McCain]

At this rate by the time my F350 makes 250K I'll be in the nursing home! Lol! I did run my old '85 F150 with a 351HO to 225K. My grandparents purchased it new, we completely restored the body in '94 including a new box and and I drove it through college and many years after until it finally rusted to pieces again! Took a couple engines though.

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[SAD]

To throw another wazoo into the mix... My local Ford dealer does gas engine oil changes for...... $9.95!! Any make/model.

They do both my Lexus and my Mazda. Zoom zoom zoom. :)

[Jim W]

Can I get in on this too?

I have a 2008 6.7L Cummins 6 spd auto/3:73 4X4 Mega Cab truck weight is a little under 9K GVW. I do very little highway driving without the 5er attached; we do some country driving at an average speed of 45 MPH with stop and go signs on the roads. My data is for 6 years of usage.

I used 5,070 gallons of diesel in my truck in 66,793 miles at a cost of $17,611.00; this will provide a yearly average of 13.17 mpg. So my costs are $0.26 cents per mile driven for fuel. The way I did this is $17,611/5,070=$3.47/gallon (average) $3.47PG/13.17MPG= $0.26 mile. My fuel filter cost is $39 (average) (5um filter); replaced every 10K miles. The filter prices ranged from $21 to $51 over the 6 years of ownership so far the total cost was $234 for six filters.

Now my truck use 3 gallons of Shell Rotella T oil at $12.99/gallon and one Fleetguard oil filter at $15.36; these were bought in Jun 2013, last oil change. So my oil change cost is $54.33, this price includes tax and shipping cost of bulk purchase of filters. Oil changes are every 5,000 miles, manufacture recommendations are every 7,500 miles. I do purchase all my filters in bulk usually six at a time of oil and 3 filters for fuel; this spreads out the cost of shipping and taxes.

These costs are cheaper than a dealer would charge but I will not go to a dealer for maintenance work on my truck.

Jim W.

[Trent McCain]

Jim you keep records on your pickup like I do for my trucks. I can tell you what I paid for fuel, gross rate per mile, net after fuel per mile, per week, and YTD for the last 8+ years. Kinda interesting to look back and see where things were.

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[Jim W]

Trent;
I also have the same type of data on my wife's Jetta TDI. I do this in order to see if a problem is developing with the engine or fuel system. Especially on a diesel engine if the fuel usage goes up real quick than there may be an injector issue or leakage at the CP3 pump.

I track all my maintenance cost; tires, all filters and lubricants for the truck and Jetta, also any attachments added to the truck or car. So far the cost of ownership for the Ram since new is a $1.00 per mile and the Jetta is $0.62 per mile.

Jim W.

[Trent McCain]

Have you noticed poorer fuel mileage the last couple years? I've noticed my fleet ave with 4-5 trucks running full time is around .2 mpg less than a couple years ago. I ordered a new KW in '09. My first year I averaged 6.2, last year I averaged 6. Now with a friend driving since Jan its down to 5.85 YTD. He pushes it harder than I do. Truck now has 395k and I would assume it should get better as it gets broke in. I think some is quality of fuel as our routes are consistent.

Trent

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[gwvwadc]

Thanks for all the responses about costs and maintenance. While it appears that costs may be more, it also appears that I may get better performance and mileage.

While I would LOVE to be able to afford a brand new truck, it is simply NOT in the picture. I'm going to have to rely on my knowledge and vehicle background checks to find a good used truck (I know background checks don't always show everything, but they are a place to start).

Thanks especially for the advice to test each brand - I currently don't have a particular one in mind. I understand if you drive a particular brand, you may be more loyal to that one than a competitor (I feel the same about my Toyota), but I plan to be objective when looking.

Anyway - thanks again!

(tx)

[Trent McCain]

You're good to go in with an open mind. I prefer Ford products, but I also like the new offerings from General Motors and Chrysler. Being in business I personally find it hard to support companies that accepted bailout money. You didn't see Ford or Toyota take any. But that's besides the point. I'll get over it someday! LOL! In my opinion a good dealer is invaluable regardless of brand. In my small town the Ford dealer is excellent and takes very good care of our family....that's important to me. We do have a Chrysler dealer as well, but I'm not familiar with their operation. You can have trouble with anything mechanical, even my Fords! As for the Toys, my brother is a Dr and doesn't have a need for a "truck", he bought a Tacoma new in 2002 and in his words "will drive it till it drops"....he's still driving it with well over 100K on it! Several other friends run 'em and are very satisfied...seem pretty indestructable. Best of luck in whichever brand you choose.

Trent

[Hansel]

Thanks for all the responses about costs and maintenance. While it appears that costs may be more, it also appears that I may get better performance and mileage.

While I would LOVE to be able to afford a brand new truck, it is simply NOT in the picture. I'm going to have to rely on my knowledge and vehicle background checks to find a good used truck (I know background checks don't always show everything, but they are a place to start).

Thanks especially for the advice to test each brand - I currently don't have a particular one in mind. I understand if you drive a particular brand, you may be more loyal to that one than a competitor (I feel the same about my Toyota), but I plan to be objective when looking.

Anyway - thanks again!

(tx)

If your going too buy used, don't hesitate too crawl all under and over the truck with a flashlight and a fine tooth comb. IMHO all the diesel enigines are solid it's the transmission and other parts that would be my most concern. But it sounds like your in the right mind set, and good luck finding a truck.

[GMcKenzie]

If you have any interest in GM and are not buying new, I would avoid anything up to 2006. The 2006-2007 LBZ seems to be the best engine while avoiding the extra pollution control stuff.

The 2001 - 2004.5 (LB7) have injector issues that are a pain in the butt (guess what I have). The 2004.5-2005 (LLY) have cooling issues.

I like my truck but would love to upgrade. Would only go GM but that's me.

[DieselMatt]

Thanks for all the responses about costs and maintenance. While it appears that costs may be more, it also appears that I may get better performance and mileage.

While I would LOVE to be able to afford a brand new truck, it is simply NOT in the picture. I'm going to have to rely on my knowledge and vehicle background checks to find a good used truck (I know background checks don't always show everything, but they are a place to start).

Thanks especially for the advice to test each brand - I currently don't have a particular one in mind. I understand if you drive a particular brand, you may be more loyal to that one than a competitor (I feel the same about my Toyota), but I plan to be objective when looking.

Anyway - thanks again!

(tx)

IF you end up looking at the 6.0L Ford there are some VERY well known issues with these engines that can easily be fixed and save you thousands in repair costs. I would be more than happy to point in the right direction as I have a 6.0 and have dealt with these issues. Just send me a PM if you go this route. :)

[Jim W]

Have you noticed poorer fuel mileage the last couple years? I've noticed my fleet ave with 4-5 trucks running full time is around .2 mpg less than a couple years ago. I ordered a new KW in '09. My first year I averaged 6.2, last year I averaged 6. Now with a friend driving since Jan its down to 5.85 YTD. He pushes it harder than I do. Truck now has 395k and I would assume it should get better as it gets broke in. I think some is quality of fuel as our routes are consistent.

Trent

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Trent;
Yes in the last two years my mileage has dropped off somewhat almost a mile per gallon. My feelings are that the diesel fuel is not #2 straight diesel anymore. Most states have either mandated thru laws or tax incentives such as IL. Since Bio-diesel has less BTU’s in it the work that the diesel engine can do is less so there is a drop off in mileage not much but some. Of course the fuel savings by using Bio is not there in some case since the road tax on diesel is higher in most states.
Jim W.

[Trent McCain]

Thanks Jim, Atleast my figures aren't decieving me then.