Winter Package [Archive] - Keystone RV Forums

Festus2

08-25-2013, 03:09 PM

No one here would be surprised that you are not able to find anything specific about the "Winter Edition". This label has changed over the past few years and includes such names as "Arctic Package", "Polar Package", "4 Season, to name a few. The labels change from year to year but they are all pretty much meaningless.

There have been scads of posts and threads written here on the forum about this question that you have asked. Rather than go into all the details here, I would refer you to our Search function and you will find more than enough feedback and comments about your "Winter Edition".

There are too many variables that come into play when trying to answer "how cold can it get before it affects the pipes" and "temperature ratings".

To be blunt, the Winter Edition, aka Arctic Package, Polar Package, etc., is just a marketing gimmick to give the impression that you can go out hunting in the middle of winter and you'll be warm and cozy and your pipes will be just fine.

If, after browsing through the myriad of posts about this topic, you are still not clear about what it means - or better - what it doesn't mean , come back and we will give you some further feedback.

Use the Search feature --- type in Arctic Package/Polar package/underbelly insulation/ or a host of other key words. I wouldn't use Winter Package as this seems to be the latest flavor of the month.

Am I sounding skeptical enough?

Not trying to put you off by not answering your questions but this topic has been asked and answered many, many times before here on the forum.

BulletOwner1

08-25-2013, 04:13 PM

I went to the Keystone website and emailed them for specifics on my "Thermal Package". Received a short response stating that the package included an underbelly covering, larger BTU heater and heated tanks using ducted heat. Not much but more than nothing.

Festus2

08-25-2013, 04:20 PM

Almost every Keystone RV has the coroplast underbelly covering so this is not a unique or dedicated feature to make the unit more usable in the winter. The "heated" tanks using ducted heat is deceiving. This only works if and when your furnace is running and any heat that does manage to reach the tanks flows into a cavernous underbelly which is sadly lacking in insulation and full of scattered openings allowing any heat to dissipate or allow cold air in.

If you want to take a look at what is inside the underbelly, please do so. Geo, one of our members, has taken more than a look inside. I'd suggest you check out his posts on this subject. You might have your eyes opened as to what is or isn't in there but should be.

therink

08-25-2013, 04:26 PM

I have arctic Barrier package for what that is worth. I wouldn't risk camping with wet tanks anytime night time temps go below 25f and day time temps below 35f. I think any temps below that would require some serious mods to retain heat.

RS0530

08-29-2013, 08:28 PM

I just bought a 2013 Cougar 27RLSWE and the dealer made sure to tell me multiple times that my trailer was the Polar Edition, which meant it was good to zero degrees. I don't plan on doing any Polar camping so it wasn't a big selling point for me. I did see a cutout in my under belly that is used for disconnecting the slide motor, in the event of a failure. That alone would seem to let the warm air from my "ducted flooring" out.

Just my unprofessional opinion.

Ken / Claudia

08-29-2013, 09:14 PM

Elk hunting in 0 degrees every RV friends and I have or had freeze up after several days. You need to run the heater all the time and keep heat to every water tank and complete water lines. Batteries fail, gennys can not keep up, take lots of propane. We have never left guys in camp. If you had somone to stay in camp they could keep checking water, fuel etc. It might work out ok. Also Jacks freeze etc etc.

geo

08-30-2013, 05:23 AM

Hmm. Sounds like the "zero degrees" being referred to is 0 Celsius, not 0 Fahrenheit! When we purchased our Alpine, it was advertised as a "full timers, four seasons RV", even though the warranty was void if it was used for full time. What I discovered eventually lead to a massive job of insulating the underbelly. IMHO, if one camped where the night temps didn't drop below 25F, warmed up above 32F by 8am, and reached a high of 40F or above by mid-afternoon, and made sure the furnace operated, probably would be fine. Might want to used some pink antifreeze in the black/gray tanks. Now if one opened the bulkhead in the basement and used an electric heater ... might be able to experience colder conditions. Might add some skirting, but no hay bales! Have to protect the outside lines also, and this has been discussed in other Forum areas.

Ron

x96mnn

08-30-2013, 05:58 AM

The 4th season you can do but your furnace is on 24/7 and you go through a ton of propane. I needed to have mine on 70 and went through a 30pd tank in 33hrs lol. The only issue I had was the line coming into the water froze which I filled my fresh tank and no issues after that. I had to drain the tanks and low the lines with a compressor before I left and dumped the black with in 2 hrs.

tileman

08-30-2013, 06:30 AM

Was out looking at mine and I have a on/off for a thing called tank heater pad.

geo

08-30-2013, 08:29 AM

Was out looking at mine and I have a on/off for a thing called tank heater pad.

Tileman -

Yes, we have had this discussion before on the forum. Curious here, did you purchase your Fuzion new? Did the dealer install the tank heater? From the previous discussions, the vast majority of Keystones do not have tank heaters nor are tank heaters listed as an option. That left most all of us very curious as why one member had an older Keystone with a tank heater! And in that case, the tank heater was only on the fresh water tank! No tank heaters on either of the gray water or black water tanks! I believe what we finally concluded, without going back to those posts, was that the dealer had installed the heater on the fresh water tank. I'm wondering if it might be the same for you?

What I found, and modified, on my Alpine was that there was only a 2.5" (6cm) duct extending off the furnace plenum with T-connections at the adjacent black and gray tank valves and then the end of that duct ending at the galley gray tank valve. In my mods, I installed 120VAC tank heaters on both gray tanks and the black tank. I installed both a 120VAC and a 12VDC tank heaters on the fresh water tank. I untangled a huge mess of heating ductwork, corrected four places where the ductwork was crushed (thus restricting airflow), and fully insulated the whole underbelly to within 4" of the top of the underbelly area. I also installed a 100 cfm fan and duct to push warmed air from the utility sub-basement back to the fresh water tank area such that it would flow along the Pex piping back the the sub-basement to keep that warm. Yes, this did take a lot of time, and if you do a Search, or look for the old posts from me, you will find verbose posts and pictures. All of this earned me the nickname of "Lord of the Underbelly"! :D

I understand now that our Alpine is located in the oil fields of western Oklahoma. I would bet that it kept more than just its new owner warm this past winter! ;)

So, as you have a tank heater, you might want to locate which tank this heater is applied to. I would bet it is a dealer modification and applied to the fresh water tank. Might be handy to know.

The SOB I have now has a full insulated underbelly, tank heaters and elbow heaters on all plumbing, and a temperature monitor in the utility basement besides the furnace outlet to keep the utilities warmed. Another "thing" I like about it is that the bulkhead between the storage basement and utility basement is sliding doors, so it will be very easy to "add" electric heat to this area.

So, Tileman, you are in a very select group of Keystone owners! You have a "tank heater"!

Ron

tileman

08-30-2013, 08:44 AM

Tileman -

Yes, we have had this discussion before on the forum. Curious here, did you purchase your Fuzion new? Did the dealer install the tank heater? From the previous discussions, the vast majority of Keystones do not have tank heaters nor are tank heaters listed as an option. That left most all of us very curious as why one member had an older Keystone with a tank heater! And in that case, the tank heater was only on the fresh water tank! No tank heaters on either of the gray water or black water tanks! I believe what we finally concluded, without going back to those posts, was that the dealer had installed the heater on the fresh water tank. I'm wondering if it might be the same for you?

What I found, and modified, on my Alpine was that there was only a 2.5" (6cm) duct extending off the furnace plenum with T-connections at the adjacent black and gray tank valves and then the end of that duct ending at the galley gray tank valve. In my mods, I installed 120VAC tank heaters on both gray tanks and the black tank. I installed both a 120VAC and a 12VDC tank heaters on the fresh water tank. I untangled a huge mess of heating ductwork, corrected four places where the ductwork was crushed (thus restricting airflow), and fully insulated the whole underbelly to within 4" of the top of the underbelly area. I also installed a 100 cfm fan and duct to push warmed air from the utility sub-basement back to the fresh water tank area such that it would flow along the Pex piping back the the sub-basement to keep that warm. Yes, this did take a lot of time, and if you do a Search, or look for the old posts from me, you will find verbose posts and pictures. All of this earned me the nickname of "Lord of the Underbelly"! :D

I understand now that our Alpine is located in the oil fields of western Oklahoma. I would bet that it kept more than just its new owner warm this past winter! ;)

So, as you have a tank heater, you might want to locate which tank this heater is applied to. I would bet it is a dealer modification and applied to the fresh water tank. Might be handy to know.

The SOB I have now has a full insulated underbelly, tank heaters and elbow heaters on all plumbing, and a temperature monitor in the utility basement besides the furnace outlet to keep the utilities warmed. Another "thing" I like about it is that the bulkhead between the storage basement and utility basement is sliding doors, so it will be very easy to "add" electric heat to this area.

So, Tileman, you are in a very select group of Keystone owners! You have a "tank heater"!

Ron

Yea we got ours new off the lot back in may of 2012.
It came with the monster package.

I only used the tank heater back in jan we were up in GA and the temps that night got down in the low 20s for a few hours. So I thought it could not hurt to turn it on.

geo

08-30-2013, 10:37 AM

Yea we got ours new off the lot back in may of 2012.
It came with the monster package.

I only used the tank heater back in jan we were up in GA and the temps that night got down in the low 20s for a few hours. So I thought it could not hurt to turn it on.

Tileman -

And sure enough, right there on the Keystone RV website! The Fuzion has "Heat Pads for Tanks" option! An option not available on either the Alpine or Montana! And not an option for anything Keystone that I could find back in 2011 models. But do try to confirm what tanks are heated. Usually there is one switch for each heat pad.

Ron

Outbackmel

08-30-2013, 02:37 PM

Mine always works great once i get the rv packed and cross the city welcome sign to Port Charlotte, Florida! :)

Crash3800

10-16-2013, 11:15 PM

Bought a 2014 250RS with the Arctic Barrier June 2014 after [I]the[I] Outback product manager, Tim Domiano, toured us around the the Keystone facility in Goshen, regaling us with stories of someone living in their Outback year around in Montana.

We later learned that Keystone doesn't guarantee anything below "30 or 35 degrees or whatever freezing is." Yes a Keystone rep actually said that.

The lines in our unit started to freeze (no running water) after only one night that bottomed out at 21 degrees even though the slides were in, the water heater was on and the trailer was around 65 degrees all night.

A local service manager called the Arctic Barrier "...Almost totally useless."

I spent an hour on the phone with Tim Domiano today as he tap danced around the issue that Keystone (deliberately?) doesn't rate any of their units as usable below freezing. Beware. He tried telling me the story of the person in Montana at least three times.

mikell

10-17-2013, 03:43 AM

Our Alpine has been below zero many times but it's after a few days that you really have to pay attention. A night in the 20's shouldn't be an issue. Going to start getting ready for the winter next week. Have over 50 campers in the park getting hunkered down for it

airforceret

10-17-2013, 06:59 AM

We spent many a cold nights in our old 2000 Starcraft TT with no so called winter or polar package. The tanks clearly had no insulation or belly wrap.

A bit of freezing in the tank was pretty normal on a long, cold night.

The concern when cold camping is whether it will freeze solid enough to break something or will it freeze solid enough to prevent emptying / draining something like the sink or will it freeze solid enough to damage something (like the pump).

Obviously draining the tanks was an afternoon chore and not a first thing in the morning event.

The key (for us) was having days that warmed up above freezing (each day) to minimize the risk of a hard freeze.

Cold management was something we learned over time by getting to know the limits of our camper, and learning what more we could do like leave the hot water heater on, crack some of the cabinet doors to allow air into the inner cavities where the pipes run... etc.

MarkS

10-17-2013, 09:48 AM

The lines in our unit started to freeze (no running water) after only one night that bottomed out at 21 degrees even though the slides were in, the water heater was on and the trailer was around 65 degrees all night.

Hi Crash,

In a previous post on this incident, you said you had spent the day driving through a Wyoming Blizzard. You said you were getting slush out of the sink when you parked. I think you were in trouble before you parked for the night. One of the worse things you can do is to tow an un-winterized trailer in below freezing weather. No heat. Constant 'wind'.

Not attacking you. Just trying to explain. Most Trailers are three season. Keystones are no better than three season. To get through a winter night you have to have the heater on. The trailer has to be somewhat warm before dark. You can't turn the heater on at dark and expect not to freeze up. And, you may need a couple of space heaters to be comfortable.

Bob Landry

10-20-2013, 04:44 PM

In the course of adding a 20A feed to my trailer to run space heaters independently of my 30A service, here is what I have found.

My trailer is a 2011 Outback 277RL with a "Polar Package".
Dropping the coroplast o run wiring disclosed zero insulation under the trailer. No roll insulation, no sprayed in, no quilted foil, absolutely nothing. The flooring consist of sheet vinyl stapled to a 1/4" plywood subfloor with 1 1/2" of sheet styrofoam sandwiched between it and 1/8" plywood.

The water piping and the electrical wiring goes up through holes cut out in the floor with no kind of foam of any type sealing the holes. The heater has three ducts coming off of it, and they are the non- insulated kind of duct, so there will be heat loss through it. The three ducts go to the three floor registers. There is no small duct from the heater that I was able to see that would be going under the floor to keep the tanks from freezing. Windows are not double pane. So, hey Keystone, refresh my memory as to just exactly what comprises the so-called Polar Package.

You know, if this were an entry level trailer, I would expect this type of construction quality and maybe even less, but this is a fairly expensive middle of the line trailer.

I go to the occasional RV show to look at the latest and greatest, and to kick a few tires, thinking it might be nice to have a fiver, but the reality is, I'm going to have so much time and money invested in this trailer simply fixing Keystone, I don't see how I can afford to trade it in, especially knowing I would be starting over with a whole new set of issues.

Festus2

10-20-2013, 08:55 PM

Bob Landry

10-21-2013, 03:41 AM

Bob -
Have you considered sending your findings to Keystone asking the same question you asked here --- What does this unit have that makes it a "Polar Package"?

I would be interested in hearing what Keystone's response is to a "politely-worded" email or phone call? (If they do, in fact, reply at all).

I intend to do just that, and I think I'll make it a phone call. They have a way of skating around emails that they don't like. Since I never seem to be able to get past the girl that answers the phone and always has all the answers, I think it will be rather amusing to listen to her dance around this question.

Festus2

10-21-2013, 06:56 AM

Bob -
Be sure to share their response with us. We could all use a bit of humour.

Bob Landry

10-21-2013, 09:15 AM

Bob -
Be sure to share their response with us. We could all use a bit of humour.

Well, I did have an uneventful conversation with Keystone's Customer Service this AM. The guy I talked to really wanted to be helpful, especially after mentioning that several threads have surfaced on the Internet forums about Keystone's cold weather packages that they use to market their trailers. He did put me a on hold a couple of times to "look something up". AKA, reading the product brochure, but that yielded no relevant information. I ended the call with exactly what I expected. He could not tell me what the Polar Package consists of other than quoting the usual "R" value of styrofoam insulation. He did say mention a 2" duct that comes off the heater that goes to the tank area, but when I told him my trailer did not have it, he had no answer except maybe it came off the main duct closer to the tanks. He also didn't have an explanation for no insulation under the coroplast, nor for the unsealed holes in the floor for water and electrical routing.
He concluded the call by saying that anyone contemplating using their trailer in sustained extreme cold conditions should use their own judgement as to what might be required to protect their trailer plumbing and holding tank systems. Duh!! Really?

I think that after all of this, I'll fall back in agreement that someone previously said and that is, Keystone doesn't make a trailer suitable for extended cld weather camping without some serious improvements.

ktmracer

10-21-2013, 11:48 AM

Festus2

10-21-2013, 02:00 PM

some of the new west coast cougars appear to be much more well insulated with a different "winter" package than the polar package. thermopane windows, foam in the attic instead of fiberglass batts. Insulation in the pass throughs next to beds, insulation along the frame rails and above the coreplast. Direct heat to the underbelly.

Claim is you can use the trailer down to 0F.

Still, given the window area and sidewall thickness, there is only so much you can do to keep heat in.

ktmracer:

Almost all of the above "improvements" seem focused on keeping the interior of the RV warm and toasty. Now, what steps have been taken to protect both the tanks and the water lines. The tanks are housed in the underbelly and a sizeable length of water lines are in exterior storage compartments or in other unprotected areas.

Unless the underbelly is protected with adequate amounts of properly placed insulation and all the openings are sealed to prevent outside air from penetrating into the opening, I am left to wonder about how effective is "direct heat to the underbelly". Having direct heat is great as long as this heat arrives in sufficient quantity, is not diluted with cold air making its way into the underbelly and has enough insulation to make it effective.

Sorry, I just can't buy Keystone's claim that the West Coast newer models are good to 0 degrees F. Have they found a way to keep the tanks and water lines from freezing? Run the furnace 24/7? Place heaters in compartments?

I think that the "answer" Bob got from Keystone pretty much sums it up..... "use your own judgment". Real comforting.

ktmracer

10-21-2013, 08:45 PM

ktmracer:

Almost all of the above "improvements" seem focused on keeping the interior of the RV warm and toasty. Now, what steps have been taken to protect both the tanks and the water lines. The tanks are housed in the underbelly and a sizeable length of water lines are in exterior storage compartments or in other unprotected areas.

Unless the underbelly is protected with adequate amounts of properly placed insulation and all the openings are sealed to prevent outside air from penetrating into the opening, I am left to wonder about how effective is "direct heat to the underbelly". Having direct heat is great as long as this heat arrives in sufficient quantity, is not diluted with cold air making its way into the underbelly and has enough insulation to make it effective.

Sorry, I just can't buy Keystone's claim that the West Coast newer models are good to 0 degrees F. Have they found a way to keep the tanks and water lines from freezing? Run the furnace 24/7? Place heaters in compartments?

I think that the "answer" Bob got from Keystone pretty much sums it up..... "use your own judgment". Real comforting.

to clarify. the frame rails in the underbelly are insulated as well as insulation above(on) the coreplast on the west coast package. so the underbelly has substantially more insulation than the outback/keystone "polar package". How good who knows?

What I can say is that with my mod punching 1/2" dia holes in the floor vent pans, our outback underbelly stays at interior temps. We camp when nighttimes are in the 15F range and above freezing during the day. Haven't had any issues. But IMHO that's about the limit for the trailer. much lower and the furnace is going to be running all the time. When it is 15F at night, the interior thermostat is set for 45F and the underbelly sits at 45F as well, checked it with a remote temp sender to see if I was in trouble.

so... I believe that with the changes in the cougars, including better insulation for the underbelly it should be a substantial improvement. Still not 4 season IMHO, but a much much better 3 season.

Bob Landry

10-22-2013, 03:56 AM

IMO, Keystone does the RV buying public a great disservice by mis-representing a product that can be and is assumed suitable for a purpose which it is not. This especially detrimental to people who full-time and plop down $50K or more for a trailer and have a valid need for a 4 season trailer. Many owners are not as skeptical and I am and will have no idea that the cold weather protection simply isn't there until they wake up on a freezing day and have to deal with ruptured pipes. Keystone's and also other builders' defense, well, surely there are days in the Arctic when it doesn't freeze.

JRTJH

10-22-2013, 06:23 AM

Our Holiday Rambler had a fully enclosed aluminum underbelly with 3" of spun fiberglass insulation laying on top of the aluminum. That puts it under the tanks and water/plumbing lines. The furnace ducting was attached to the underside of the floor and had openings along the length venting hot air into the "fully enclosed and insulated basement" to keep it warm. We felt comfortable down to about 20 or so in that trailer.

It was my experience with that trailer that we could prevent frozen water lines or tank valves simply by keeping the thermostat set above 50 or 60 *F. The problems we faced with that trailer and which will be present in any Keystone product, is not really the basement, but the entry water supply, the sewer drain line and the RV walls/windows/doors.

No matter what you do to the basement, you're still facing R7 or R9 walls, single pane or "light duty dual pane" windows and tremendous heat loss through those basic structures. It's not impossible, but rather very expensive to insulate to R19 in a 2" space. Trying to make a "true 4 season" camper means using expensive materials, increased man hours in manufacturing and rephrasing the sales literature. I don't think Keystone is willing to do that.....

It's not "just Keystone" but every RV manufacturer claims to have "cold weather camping capability" of some sort. Flagstaff advertises "True 6 sided vacuum bonded foam insulation" and "electrically heated holding tanks" BUT THEY STILL HAVE R-7 SIDEWALLS and single pane windows!!! The list goes on and on.......

About the only way you're going to get a "true 4 season camper" is to get above the $100K price range, and then, you'd better be very selective in what you believe and what you buy or you'll still be disappointed. And even with some of the "over 100K trailers, the way they deal with "cold weather camping" is to add a second furnace to keep up with the heat loss that thin walls mandate. Imagine the propane use with two 42000 BTU furnaces running 24/7 !!!

I think the "bad thing" (if we have to put blame) is in the marketing. If Keystone would simply be honest and call the package "Almost Polar" or "Nearly Arctic" they would be much closer to the truth. They do need to stop misrepresenting their products capability. Until then, we'll all still be disappointed with their claims and lack of ability to provide what they promise.

airforceret

10-22-2013, 09:29 AM

I grew up living in mobile homes in the Midwest. We endured some very severe winters with brutal below zero temps and survived. You can make most of these trailers capable of making it through the winter with some planning and some effort. Mobile homes of the 60s and 70s were not what they are today and it was a constant struggle to not have frozen water or sewer lines. We often had to leave cabinets open and faucets running in an effort to prevent freezing. The wind would blow and so would the curtains... it wasn't always easy.. but it was every day life!!! :)

The fact they sit off the ground means they will always be susceptible to freezing temps!!!

Without a doubt the polar package on my keystone is better today than what we had on the bottom of our mobile home in the early 70s.

JRTJH

10-22-2013, 10:21 AM

When we were stationed at Lowry AFB in Denver, we had friends that dragged their 12x65 ft mobile home from Florida to Colorado. They parked it as close to Denver as they could find a spot in a mobile home park. That was out near Strasburg (on the plains). Two by four walls, "maybe 3" of fiberglass insulation between the inside pressboard paneling and the outside "tin siding" made for some pretty cold nights. When the cold winds and snow came, it seemed there was as much snow inside as there was outside. The aluminum framed windows that leaked as much as they stopped sure didn't help. They wound up spending a number of nights with us because they simply couldn't keep their trailer warm enough for their two kids.

Yes, mobile home construction has improved significantly, and in some ways, travel trailer construction has improved. But it seems the manufacturers are still "sort of" thinking along the lines of the automotive industry than the home industry with their "R value" and "energy savings" agenda. They seem to think, "As long as the furnace is running, it'll be comfortable inside." Like the auto industry, they really don't consider "when the furnace is not running."

Next time you're in a big box store, take a look at the square footage recommendations on the side of a window air conditioner box. They recommend 8,000 BTU for a 350 sq ft room. A 36 ft fifth wheel with two slides (sort of an average fifth wheel in size) is about 345 sq ft of floor space and we need two 13.500 A/C's to cool it and often wish for two 15K A/C's because they cool "better" That's more than 3 times the BTU required for a home room of near equal size, just to sufficiently (note I didn't say efficiently) cool the inside on a "warm day."

I wonder when (if ever) Keystone and other manufacturers will get their act together??????

Is it any wonder if we can't keep the heat out in the summer that we can't keep the heat in during the winter?

mguay

10-23-2013, 04:03 AM

Next time you're in a big box store, take a look at the square footage recommendations on the side of a window air conditioner box. They recommend 8,000 BTU for a 350 sq ft room. A 36 ft fifth wheel with two slides (sort of an average fifth wheel in size) is about 345 sq ft of floor space and we need two 13.500 A/C's to cool it and often wish for two 15K A/C's because they cool "better" That's more than 3 times the BTU required for a home room of near equal size, just to sufficiently (note I didn't say efficiently) cool the inside on a "warm day."

Is it any wonder if we can't keep the heat out in the summer that we can't keep the heat in during the winter?

The above statement is a PERFECT analogy!

I am in the insulation business and have learned an important thing in the past 10yrs. It isn't all about the r-value. I have seen homes with an over abundance of insulation that are colder than stone. Yes the windows usually have the lowest r-value in the equation...but it's not usually the problem.

The biggest issue when heating and cooling are "Air Leakage".

A Hot Air Balloon is similar to a RV. In the balloon...the heat is added through an open (to the exterior air) hole in the bottom and the balloon rises as the air in it gets warmer. When you wand to descend.....open the flap at the top and not only let hot air out...but let the cold air in the bottom.

A RV has the same principal. The way that construction happens above the floor is far from "Air Sealed". I am not saying that it should be a bubble...but there are many areas that could be improved upon...like, Windows, there isn't a RV window that I have ever seen that is 100% air tight. How about the trim around roof vents and the vents themselves? Spend a night in there when the wind is blowing a steady 30mph and you'll see what I mean. The real eye-opener for me about RV air sealing was last March while making our normal run to Florida for the month. The outside temps hovered around the dew point the whole trip. When we would stop for the night and enter the 5er...the windows, mirrors and walls were covered in moisture, just like fogging the mirror in the bathroom. Run the heater for awhile and it would dry up.

So here's my point,
Temperature is NOT air movement...temperature CREATES air movement.
Heat rises and pulls air with it and Cold settles and pulls air with it. Hence Heat ducts in the floor and AC ducts in the ceiling.
Here's the problem, as the heat rises...if it is allowed to...it pulls "unconditioned" air from below. So in the case of an RV when you run the furnace, the heat is pulling cold air threw the "non-insulated/non-air sealed" underbelly. Introducing the cold air into the interior and the furnace has a hard time to keep up. When trying to cool with the AC...the action is reversed but is actually worse because of the "nons" in the belly and the cool air falls out...so to speak.

Follow this http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10892to what I found and did with my under belly...with advise from GEO "The Lord of the Underbelly". I can report that we had quite a few days in the mid 90's and the AC was much more even. We also had a few nights at the beginning of OCT in the low 30's and the furnace just sipped the LP.

airforceret

10-23-2013, 04:05 AM

Funny you should mention those A/C units at the box store. My brother has built a number custom ATV trailers (now referred to as toy haulers) and what is really sad is that his little window units have consistently outperformed my RV roof units. He quit installing roof units years ago and only installs box store units. Personally I think the roof units of today are overrated. My 1999 would run you out of the trailer parked in the sun in Vegas at Sam's Town when it was 108 outside. My 2013 struggles to cool and maintain a decent temp when its 85 outside. If it wasn't so new and pretty, I'd cut a hole in it and install an aftermarket box store a/c (maybe next year).

Western Traveler

11-15-2013, 10:45 PM

I realize most are talking full time here with larger rigs but I have been Combing the forum for winter package info as I await delivery of my 21RBSWE. I hunt Montana in the fall and have had temps drop from 20F to -20F overnight. I realize I will be lucky to maintain a comfortable camp at even that higher temp.
I met the Keystone West Coast Rep and he swore the "New" Western Edition Polar Plus+ were tested to "0"F.
I plan on looking in the underbelly at delivery just to see what's there.
The salesman said "Just know All these rigs are three season at best."
I had looked at Arctic Fox and Lance before choosing my Cougar.

So I was in the mountains a couple of weeks ago traveling on a two track to a trailhead and saw an Arctic Fox set up on a turnout. Daytime Temp about 30 F and snowing. That afternoon on the way out I saw the hunter at his rig and stopped to chat. I asked if he was set up full service and he said no that he was winterized and didn't think he could operate in the teens and doubted any of the smaller rigs could.
Arctic Fox claims to be a true 4 season and a comparable rig to mine weighs in a lot higher (a big reason I passed on it).
So the reality of all this for me is winterized rig for late season hunts.
Unless someone has experience with the "New" Polar Package Plus+ that could enlighten me.

Festus2

11-15-2013, 11:21 PM

[QUOTE=Western Traveler;102921]
I met the Keystone West Coast Rep and he swore the "New" Western Edition Polar Plus+ were tested to "0"F.

Oh, I see we have yet another sticker ...."Polar Plus". :rolleyes: As a representative of Keystone, what else could he say? Did you notice that his nose grew 4 inches while he "swore"?

The salesman said "Just know All these rigs are three season at best."

Oh, an RV salesman who seems to know what he is talking about. Now that's novel.
QUOTE]

Bob Landry

11-16-2013, 05:29 AM

I would have to go back and read the warranty, but if I remember correctly, Keystone's warranty does not apply to trailers that are used for anything but recreation, that would be excluding full time living. I think Keystone and everyone else takes the approach that if it gets to hot or too cold, we have the option of shutting it down and going home and crank up the AC or sit under an afghan in the living room with a cup of coffee. Some of us have that luxury, many don't. At any rate, we are on our own and it's up to us to determine the extreme capabilities of our trailers and take appropriate measure for anything other than three season use. It's just sad that the trailer manufacturers, not just Keystone, are permitted to carry on with this form of false advertising. If you are going to build a product with reduced capabilities, own up to it and represent it for what it actually is.