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Festus2
07-18-2013, 12:27 PM
I'm probably opening up another can of towing worms but what the heck.....

Let me give you a theoretical example:

Quite often we hear from a member who is in the midst of buying or has already bought a new RV and asks, "Will I be able to tow my new Laredo 301RE or some other TT with my F150 or whatever other truck".

Further on in his post, he goes on to list one or more of the following conditions under which he will be towing his Laredo:
1) We won't be carrying much stuff - a bit of water and minimum supplies -"We'll be travelling light".
2) We will be driving over mainly flat roads, no major hills or climbs. "It's all flat."
3) We won't be going fast. "I'll be driving slowly".
4) We won't be going far. "The campground is only 75 miles away".
5) We only go on holidays 3 times a year. "We won't be on the highways that often".

The thread continues with replies from various members who might say:
1) You are way too heavy. That TT is too much for your TV. Look at a bigger truck.
2) No problem. You'll be just fine. Go camping and enjoy.
3) I've towed my TT all over the US without a problem. "We've got the same setup. You're ok".
4) And then there is my favorite ......."Mmmmm...not sure but I think should be ok if you watch what you take, don't go into the mountains, drive slowly and stay close to home."

I read the post and the replies and ask myself.....
Why would a person buy an RV and a truck and put all these restrictions and limitations on themselves? Why would a person think that if they do, it will make it safer for themselves and for others. Isn't being beyond your payload and towing capacity unsafe under any and all conditions? What difference does it make if you go 30, 300 or 3000 miles? 55 mph or 65 mph? Unsafe is unsafe no matter how you spin it.

I am also wondering if, at times, we sometimes do a member who is close to or over the payload a disservice by telling him that it will be ok for you IF you do this or don't do that. By doing so, all we are doing is reinforcing the misconception that it is safe for him to venture out providing he meets these conditions and stays within the boundaries you have given him or that he has mistakenly set for himself.

Surely, unsafe is unsafe --under any conditions.

davidjsimons
07-18-2013, 12:37 PM
I agree 100%. I get laughed at for towing a Cougar 28 RBS with a DRW 3500, but at least I can go wherever with as much gear as I need to and not have a care in the world. I've said it before and I will say it again, you can never have too much truck.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

therink
07-18-2013, 01:41 PM
I agree 100%.There was a time however (before I had the benefit of helpful rv community forums such as this) when I used to purchase a trailer based on what I wanted, with no regard to if my truck was capable. I made some poor choices and at times put my family's safety in jeopardy.
For me, there was no way I could ever talk my wife into that nice new truck after we spent our wad on the rv of "my" dreams. Why wife would say "can our truck tow that?", I would say "of course it will". Keep in mind I wasn't even considering what the yellow sticker in the door jamb said. Then a few months later I would say to my DW, "we need a bigger truck". She would then roll her eyes and say "whatever". Now I had her permission to get the truck of my dreams. I went through this process a few times until I finally smartened up and bought the right truck for the load we were towing. I guess it is jusjust a learning curve that many people have to go through.
One thing I try to do is be frank on the forums when people as "can my truck tow this?". I tell them my experiences of white knuckling my way to the campgrounds, the burned out transmissions, over heating engines, etc.

f6bits
07-18-2013, 02:24 PM
At the end of your post, you mentioned the scenario of being "close to payload." That's the grey area that some consider to be a black area. Someone can be within limits, but others consider that being over 80% is unsafe.

Or that you *have* to go by the gross weight. I've seen many trailers that have dry weights that vary by 1000 lbs but have the same gross weight. Keystone seems to like various gross weight values, like 7200 lbs. Maybe it's a frame limit. One model has a dry weight of 4800 lbs and another 5500 lbs. The first has a cargo capacity of 2400 lbs and the second only 1700 lbs.

What most seem to agree on is that the numbers at the scale are what matter. Then it's the battle of 80% vs 90% vs Max. 95% if you live in the flatlands is more doable than 90% in crazy hill country.

Regardless, you're responsible for your choice. The hundred per-center keeping it to 60 in the flatlands is much safer than the 80 per-center double-towing at 75MPH.

Festus2
07-18-2013, 02:39 PM
At the end of your post, you mentioned the scenario of being "close to payload." That's the grey area that some consider to be a black area.

Regardless, you're responsible for your choice. The hundred per-center keeping it to 60 in the flatlands is much safer than the 80 per-center double-towing at 75MPH.

Scott -
Yes, being close to payload is a tough one to call. I would call it a grey area. Safe or unsafe? There are instances however where there is no doubt that you are over and knowing that and still heading out under restrictions or conditions is unsafe.

My concern was about those who are overloaded and drive slowly thinking that by doing so makes it safe.

buzzcop63
07-18-2013, 03:23 PM
Many posts where the trailer owner drives a vehicle that is well over qualified for the trailer that it is towing seems to always have a comment that anything other then their choice of a tow vehicle is unsafe or just not up to the job.

First you match the truck to the trailer. According to "Guide to Towing, Trailer Life 2013" Before purchasing a vehicle, we suggest you acquire the manufacturer's comprehensive towing guide, available online or at dealerships. Be sure to read the fine print because in many cases the maximum rating may apply only to one particular version and be for a fifth-wheel trailer; many larger pickups may have the actual tow rating limited by the hitch hardware."

You do the math and make sure the TV meets the GCWR, GVWR and has the tow capacity for the trailer. You make sure you are using the correct hitch and that TV is set up to safely tow your trailer. Using the Guide to Towing is a great help as is the TV manufacturer and a quality trailer dealer. What also must be considered but never seems to be brought up is cost, percentage of just using vehicle for non-towing duties, future increase in tow weight, and where you will be doing the most towing. Answering these questions will help you find the tow vehicle that fits your needs, budget and future towing requirements.

Javi
07-18-2013, 03:38 PM
I think it has to do with rationalizing what one has done or decided to do. There are clear cut limits on these tow vehicles, be it axle load limits, tire load limits or gross weight versus payload, which by the way don't always equal X.

In many of the modern trucks it isn't an issue of power or even stopping capabilities it becomes a dance around towability and stability. For instance I had a 2011 F-150 with the HD tow package which was LT tires, HD radiator and coolers rated to easily carry my Passport 2890RL and yes it towed it easily. Heck I could have done 80+ in 6th on most Texas highways and had no trouble with any of the hills we encounter in central, east and south Texas. And I'm sure it would have not had any real issues going over Loveland Pass at a reasonable speed but it wasn't fun to drive.
I spent a couple of thousand dollars trying to make it tow like a 3/4 ton but that was good money chasing bad decisions.

I tried the "special" hitches and stiffer shocks, heavier sidewalls and other tricks found and recommend on the internet all to no avail. Could I tow the trailer, darn straight, hook up and go but I spent the entire time looking in my rearview mirror waiting of the next 18 wheeler to blow me to the shoulder and always afraid to even take my hands off the wheel least the trailer win to waggle war. It wasn't sway, it was that the trailer was just flat too long for the 145" wheelbase and it wouldn't have mattered if I'd have had a diesel in the motor compartment the truck wasn't meant to tow a 33 foot long 10 foot tall sail behind it. It wasn't safe and I don't care how many folks do it every day, I will continue to express that opinion day in and day out.

Randy_K
07-18-2013, 03:38 PM
A lot of people have a TV before they buy a TT. When looking at TT's I never had a salesman tell me I could not tow something I was looking at.

So lets say I bought something that I later learnt might be too much for my TV. Lets also say I spent all my savings and took out a 10 year loan to pay for the TT. Next I ask what I can do to make it as safe as I can , a lot of members just say to " buy a bigger TV". " you can never have too much truck" " tires and air bags don't help " "You will die in a fiery crash and kill others".

Not everyone has the unlimited room in their budget or a bank that will offer more money and payments.

Perhaps some people who mean well need to understand not everyone has the unlimited budget , and are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Randy

Javi
07-18-2013, 03:53 PM
A lot of people have a TV before they buy a TT. When looking at TT's I never had a salesman tell me I could not tow something I was looking at.

So lets say I bought something that I later learnt might be too much for my TV. Lets also say I spent all my savings and took out a 10 year loan to pay for the TT. Next I ask what I can do to make it as safe as I can , a lot of members just say to " buy a bigger TV". " you can never have too much truck" " tires and air bags don't help " "You will die in a fiery crash and kill others".

Not everyone has the unlimited room in their budget or a bank that will offer more money and payments.

Perhaps some people who mean well need to understand not everyone has the unlimited budget , and are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Randy

At one time or another during the past 64 years I've been stuck between more than one rock and hard place. If you are an adult you suck it up and do what it takes to fix the problem. Sometimes that can mean losing a chunk of change on the trade and sometimes in means sitting at home, camping at the local lake for a couple of years, working overtime, giving up sodas or tobacco but you do what you have to. Learn from the experience and don't make the same mistake twice.

And no amount of good intentioned advice telling you it'll be okay if you just load lightly and take it easy is gonna make a bad choice into a good choice.

labs4life
07-18-2013, 04:04 PM
A lot of people have a TV before they buy a TT. When looking at TT's I never had a salesman tell me I could not tow something I was looking at.

So lets say I bought something that I later learnt might be too much for my TV. Lets also say I spent all my savings and took out a 10 year loan to pay for the TT. Next I ask what I can do to make it as safe as I can , a lot of members just say to " buy a bigger TV". " you can never have too much truck" " tires and air bags don't help " "You will die in a fiery crash and kill others".

Not everyone has the unlimited room in their budget or a bank that will offer more money and payments.

Perhaps some people who mean well need to understand not everyone has the unlimited budget , and are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Randy

In this case, a person should have done due diligence on the items before purchase. It is easy to get caught up on what the salesman says, but it is the consumers responsibility to ensure what they are spending their hard earned money on makes sense. People, too often, buy what they want in trailers with no regard to what "their" TV can carry. I still hold the buyer responsible for the wrong decision and will continue to suggest a different TV. They are asking for MY opinion on the matter by posting on this forum! We have the right to give "our opinion" as does everyone else.

labs4life
07-18-2013, 04:06 PM
Sorry Javi, didn't see ur post before response

Festus2
07-18-2013, 04:11 PM
" A lot of people have a TV before they buy a TT."

Randy - Unfortunately, this often happens and sometimes people go out and buy a TT without ensuring that it is going to be a safe match for the TV. It seems that many come on the forum and look for someone to say, "Yes, you can do it. No problem." Or, they are looking for some kind of confirmation that their poor decision was a good one.

I don't want to appear cold-hearted, but if a person is going to spend their life savings and take out a 10 year loan on an RV, they should make darn sure that what they are doing is sound. I would be asking, "Is this thing that I am spending a ton of money on going to be a good, safe match for the truck?" If you don't know the right answer to that question, then you should ask someone who does BEFORE you take out a huge loan.

Perhaps some people who mean well need to understand not everyone has the unlimited budget , and are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I fully realize that not everyone is created financially equal and; for some, it is a financial squeeze to buy an RV. That I do understand. If someone chooses to put themselves between a rock and hard place, well that is their choice and they had better be prepared to live with the consequences. But if you choose not to safely match your RV with your TV because you can't afford to do so, that is not a good decision IMO. This, I'm afraid I do not understand.

f6bits
07-18-2013, 04:12 PM
Due diligence typically consists of comparing trailer weight to your vehicle's tow capacity.

Not until one's taken the plunge do they learn all about cargo and axle capacities, wheelbase, and real world numbers. My Grand Cherokee was tow rated for my current trailer and it was doable for the most part, but not enjoyable.

labs4life
07-18-2013, 04:33 PM
What is the gvw of ur passport? What was the payload of the grand Cherokee?? I would be willing to bet the tongue weight would put over on payload on that vehicle. This could be derived before the purchase of the TT.
Looks like the gvw of the camper is over 7k. That puts tongue weight over 1k....not many smaller suv's have that kind of payload to add with passengers etc.
if he buyer is only looking at DRY weights to determine tow-ability, they should be ashamed of themselves!!

Festus2
07-18-2013, 04:43 PM
What is the gvw of ur passport? What was the payload of the grand Cherokee?? I would be willing to bet the tongue weight would put over on payload on that vehicle. This could be derived before the purchase of the TT.
Looks like the gvw of the camper is over 7k. That puts tongue weight over 1k....not many smaller suv's have that kind of payload to add with passengers etc.
if he buyer is only looking at DRY weights to determine tow-ability, they should be ashamed of themselves!!

****************************************

I am assuming that Scott realized that the two were not a good match and upgraded his TV. Good for him.

Unfortunately, many first-time buyers of RV's really don't know much about Dry Weights or any other kinds of weights or payloads. It looks nice so they buy it and go through the learning curve later on. I think it's called impulse buying and many simply do not realize that buying an RV requires a lot of thought, research and education.

labs4life
07-18-2013, 04:58 PM
I see that he has changed TVs and good for him. I was just commenting on the fact that he said you could not get real world numbers until after the purchase. Just pointing out it could be realized before purchase.

MarkS
07-18-2013, 05:03 PM
There are a couple of problems. One, the specs are hard to understand And the truck manufacturers make it worse. When I bought my truck, I read that it was rated to pull a 16k 5er. I thought "I'll never want a trailer that big". I would love to find the 16K trailer that didn't exceed the specs with other obvious names like GRAWR. Even a 10K trailer pushes the other specs.

Second, the dealers will be quick to say "oh, you can pull anything with that truck".

Finally most people can push the specs and never have a problem. Frankly my rig does push the specs. I routinely drive roads that the truck mags use for head to head tests. I have never felt uncomfortable or unsafe. Uphill or down, cross winds, passing trucks don't give me any trouble.

And I often see smaller trucks pulling bigger trailers.

I think some of our members try to justify their choice in rigs on these pages. "I chose a F450 to pull my 4k trailer and so should you." or "I pull my 14K TH with a F150, no problem."

I think all you can do is answer these types of questions honestly. It's better for people to make informed decisions. Surprises are not good.

Randy_K
07-18-2013, 05:31 PM
I think most of us can agree the worst place to get towing advise is the TT or TV salesman. Most shoppers , myself included thought these "professionals" would know what they are doing.

Randy

Randy_K
07-18-2013, 05:33 PM
There are a couple of problems. One, the specs are hard to understand And the truck manufacturers make it worse. When I bought my truck, I read that it was rated to pull a 16k 5er. I thought "I'll never want a trailer that big". I would love to find the 16K trailer that didn't exceed the specs with other obvious names like GRAWR. Even a 10K trailer pushes the other specs.

Second, the dealers will be quick to say "oh, you can pull anything with that truck".

Finally most people can push the specs and never have a problem. Frankly my rig does push the specs. I routinely drive roads that the truck mags use for head to head tests. I have never felt uncomfortable or unsafe. Uphill or down, cross winds, passing trucks don't give me any trouble.

And I often see smaller trucks pulling bigger trailers.

I think some of our members try to justify their choice in rigs on these pages. "I chose a F450 to pull my 4k trailer and so should you." or "I pull my 14K TH with a F150, no problem."

I think all you can do is answer these types of questions honestly. It's better for people to make informed decisions. Surprises are not good.

:applause::applause:

SAD
07-18-2013, 05:39 PM
"Safe" is a state of being, or an act...

Plenty of people tow beyond their ratings and are safe...

Plenty of people tow way below their ratings and are UNsafe....

Some of them have accidents. Most of them do not...

Ken / Claudia
07-18-2013, 06:30 PM
I think that when the questions are after the purchase of tv and trailer. We need to drum into folks to get to a scale and get real weights. If grossly over what the truck should be pulling stand up and say get a better vehicle which is normally a bigger and or longer. But, I think we should let folks know the different things that help with towing, such as better hitch, stronger tires, air bags, transmission coolers etc. If it were me and it has been at times I would first try to upgrade the TV before buying another. I hope that folks who read the advice continue to ask for opinions and ask others if they feel the advice is not right.

Festus2
07-18-2013, 08:54 PM
Ken -
I am wondering how many of those folks who, after visiting a weight scale, find out "real weights" and then discover that they are significantly overloaded, take appropriate steps to remedy this? What options are available to them? Do they redistribute the cargo/load and come back again to reweigh? Do they try different hitch adjustments? Decide to buy a new TV? Or do they simply look at the results and toss them into the glove compartment and do nothing?

Your advice about going to a weigh scale is good but only as good as what the people do with the results. Some may not have to do anything - all is good. Others, well ......not so good and not so easy.

As far as helping others with towing issues, I'm not sure whether installing stronger tires, upgrading your transmission cooler or installing airbags will change the payload or capacity of a TV. They will have an effect on how your truck rides and handles and keep your engine temp down.

But you do make some excellent points in trying to make sense of the whole issue of towing. Thanks for your suggestions.

buzzcop63
07-18-2013, 09:49 PM
I think you are making a very good point. All trailer dealers are not alike, sitting in 1/2 ton rated Cougar TT, 30RKSWE, GVWR of 8,200Lb (34'4" long) at Curtis Trailer in Aloha Oregon I was shooting the breeze with a salesman and I offer that my tow vehicle of choice would be a 1/2 ton truck due to its comfort in around town driving, cost and MPG. The salesman looks at me and shakes his head, he did not say no but it was obvious that my choice would not be wise. Your experience speaks for itself, many 1/2-ton trucks could tow that trailer but with that length and the truck being so light and its wheelbase, it would be a white-knuckle drive.

In my previous posts I have always used the guide lines expressed in numerous books on towing and years of reading Trailer life, Guide to Towing published each year, etc. But I do not recall a formula that relates to the length of the trailer to the wheelbase and weight of the TV?

TAZ23
07-19-2013, 03:38 AM
The problem with towing threads is that some poeple feel a half ton should never be used to haul anything more than groceries, and some think they can pull a space shuttle. The truth is somewhere in between. Just because you see a half ton pulling a large trailer it does not mean he is unsafe or a danger to society, it depends on the specific vehicle/trailer set up. I have a 2012 Silverado half ton and pull a trailer that is 7950 lbs. loaded and ready to go. I have had it on the truck scale at work and I am under the ratings in every aspect. In some areas I am closer than others but all is good as far as the numbers go. Do I feel unsafe? No, not at all. It drives nice and I am comfortable while pulling the trailer. I would not have bought it if I had to climb mountains with it, but here in northern Wisconsin we only have rolling hills, and a big one would be about a mile long.The trucks of today are much more capable than just a few years ago. I had a 2006 Silverado half ton and pulled a 5500 lb. trailer with it, but would never attempt to pull my current trailer with it. This truck is our only vehicle and is my daily driver. I really enjoy the 20 mpg's I get compared to the 15 mpgs that my buddy gets with his three quarter ton gasser. at 22,000 miles per year it really adds up. If any of you still feel that I am a menace to society then send me a PM when you come into Wisconsin or Michigans UP and I will let you know where I'll be so you can avoid having me run into you.

Lost
07-19-2013, 04:09 AM
I think there is a large majority of people out there that are confused about all the towing info out there (I know I am). I think I'm ok but the more I read, hear, the more I question my tv. Unless your really into this, most people don't have a clue (like me). I asked questions when I purchased my rig and the salesman said no problem. After joining this forum I learned quickly not to trust the so called sales experts. As I said: I think my TV is ok but I would like to tow boat behind it (salemans said no problem) but I'm in serious doubt about that. I have a 2010 2500HD 6L gas with a 4.10 16k hich and read for a 5th wheel I can tow 12,300 my rig is 9,630 dry, my boat with trailer is around 2,500 so say 3,000 total length of everything would be 74'. With this info would I be ok to tow that much.:confused:

Javi
07-19-2013, 04:12 AM
My first question would be will Michigan allow you to tow 74 feet combined, in Texas the limit combined is 65 feet.

Lost
07-19-2013, 04:24 AM
My first question would be will Michigan allow you to tow 74 feet combined, in Texas the limit combined is 65 feet.

In Michigan it's 75 feet. I told the salemans that when my wife retires we would like to tow it to Florida for the winters and he said we could. I now doubt that answer.

JRTJH
07-19-2013, 04:27 AM
My first question would be will Michigan allow you to tow 74 feet combined, in Texas the limit combined is 65 feet.

Michigan's combined tow length is 75' maximum. We towed our 26' fifth wheel and the Bass Tracker behind our short bed F150 extended cab (not crew cab) and were right at 65'. At that length, if I tow with the outboard tilted too far, I could potentially be a tad longer than 65'. I don't think it's possible to tow a 36' fifth wheel and a boat of any significant size and stay below 65'.

Lost, Some people do it and have been "fortunate" to not be stopped.... Some say (I can't verify) that in Florida, out of state visitors have been stopped and forced to unhitch the boat and leave it on the side of the road. That, if true, would deter me from double towing to Florida. I think (my opinion only) that with reciprocity, there shouldn't be an issue, but with other laws, it's difficult to see if a violation exists, however with double towing, it's "in your face" obvious that another trailer is behind the fifth wheel. Unfortunately, much of the "personal experience" I have heard is the "my brother in law had a friend whose father knew a man who lived next to a ...." kind of reports. How accurate the accounts are is suspect at best.

f6bits
07-19-2013, 05:13 AM
Two points when I bought my trailer:
1) The dealer had prominent signs warning that it's the buyer's responsibility to determine the capability of their tow vehicle.
2) I asked if they had a scale, and they didn't, but said a produce distributor up the street did.

I wish I had a tongue weight scale. I know about the bathroom scale trick, but it's a hassle and I'm not confident about its accuracy.

Kristi
07-19-2013, 06:06 AM
Okay, I'm gonna toss in my 2 cents & hope I don't put my foot in it. We also bought our TV before our trailer. Before heading to the trailer lot we spent the evening with the truck's owners manual. It has a towing section & even has examples & scenarios. After doing the numbers, we figured we could tow a pretty good size tt (the bed is too short for a 5er) BUT we were limited to 650 lbs tongue weight due to the real axle limits.

So off to the dealer we go...
Salesman- "what are you gonna tow with?
DH- GMC 4X4 With a 6.0L
Salesman- Okay, should have no problem pulling anything on the lot....
DH- Gotta stay under 650lbs tongue weight
Salesman- Ohhh, lets look at the passports & see what we can find with those specs.

It is the owners responsibility to know what their truck can do.

Festus2
07-19-2013, 06:47 AM
The problem with towing threads is that some poeple feel a half ton should never be used to haul anything more than groceries, and some think they can pull a space shuttle. The truth is somewhere in between. Just because you see a half ton pulling a large trailer it does not mean he is unsafe or a danger to society, it depends on the specific vehicle/trailer set up. If any of you still feel that I am a menace to society then send me a PM when you come into Wisconsin or Michigans UP and I will let you know where I'll be so you can avoid having me run into you.

TAZ23 -
As I said in my opening sentence..."I'm probably opening up another can of towing worms....."
My intent was not to bash anyone and everyone who tows their RV with a 1/2 T but to ask some questions about restrictions and limitations that have either been self-imposed or suggested by others by someone whose truck is definitely overloaded.
You've obviously ensured that your unit is within its towing capacity and you are not a hazard on the road. I wasn't suggesting that you or anyone else who has a 1/2T is a menace nor was I trying to start a debate about 1/2 vs 3/4 T tow vehicles.

"I'm probably opening up another can of towing worms....but what the heck". I guess I asked for it, didn't I? :banghead:

campingcpl
07-19-2013, 07:34 AM
I know in my experiences, and I see and hear this a lot when it comes to people wanting to buy their first rv. Is that most sales people will tell you what you want to hear. For example: The DW and I have been looking into upgrading to a new 5th wheel. With our truck we have a max payload of 2400 lbs. After taking out for the two of us, a tank of fuel, the hitch, etc. we have roughly about 1800 lbs of payload remaining (according to the manufactures specs). So we go into the dealership and start talking to the sales people. One of the first questions they ask is what are we towing with. After I tell them they start showing us floor plans that are within the towing capacity of the truck but the pin is more then 500 lbs over our payload capacity. The other problem is some of the floor plans are within the tow rating as long as I don't load anything into the trailer. The sales person is just looking at the dry weight and not taking in the thought of me putting 1500 lbs plus into this trailer. The one thing I say to people who ask me about what they think they can pull is know the numbers on your truck before you even start looking.

GMcKenzie
07-19-2013, 08:30 AM
I see no one commented on this.


Plenty of people tow beyond their ratings and are safe...


No they aren't.


Plenty of people tow way below their ratings and are UNsafe....

Some of them have accidents. Most of them do not...

Some of them are accidents waiting to happen. Just because it hasn't happened, does not mean it won't.

GMcKenzie
07-19-2013, 08:50 AM
First, I think this is a good thread Festus2. Thanks for starting it.

I think one piece of advice we can give people who are buying a TT, assume you are going to load it to it's full carrying capacity.

For example, mine has a dry weight of 6,625 and a carrying capacity of 1,575.

So I assume the trailer weighs 8,200. I know it doesn't (I've weighed it around 7,800) but if I assume that weight when shopping, I should have my margin there.

I don't believe there is anything you can do to a truck to actually change what it can tow. If the DOT (or the US equivalent) stops and weighs you, they will go by the door sticker regardless of any mods done. If you are overweight, your trailer sits on the side of the road. I know they were pushing this in the BC Interior a few years back. Not sure they are still doing it. They were really focusing on 1/2 tons carrying campers (most were well overweight) but did go after trailers as well.

If you are not overweight, then I think some of the mods mentioned do a good job of reducing the white knuckle part of towing. I know filling my water tank makes a difference on my setup, so I do it.

Not really much can be done for the folks who ask after the fact and want to hear all is good. I cringe when I see them on the road but they are all over the place. Yes, most will never have an issue, but I stay well clear. I find it especially painful when I see a rig that should be able to tow the TV fine, but the owner has no clue how to set up the hitch and still has the headlights pointing to the sky.

Ken / Claudia
07-19-2013, 10:26 AM
Festus, I my point was, when the scales show your over max. wt.s I do hope that something is done to get back into what the makers of the truck and trailer print is max. How many do change to fix the numbers is unknown.
Thinking of my past, I once got rid of a pathfinder for a F150 and another time found my tires where carrying 200lbs over on each rear tire and different tires fixed that problem. I was not over the GVWR just the tries. I thought of my family traveling in thoose times at over wt.s and changed to protect them and also others on the roadway.

SAD
07-19-2013, 01:54 PM
...No they aren't....

Oh I see.

So my buddies that hotshot (with DOT numbers and logbooks and proper registration for the weight) with a 3500 dually at 33K pounds are unsafe? Because you think so? Or because DodFoGMC wont warrant it? Or because...... Elaborate please.

SAD
07-19-2013, 01:55 PM
Some of them are accidents waiting to happen. Just because it hasn't happened, does not mean it won't.

And just because it hasn't happened, doesn't mean it will.

We're ALL and accident waiting to happen. Murphy logs more miles on the highway than every single one of us combined.

SAD
07-19-2013, 02:00 PM
...I don't believe there is anything you can do to a truck to actually change what it can tow. If the DOT (or the US equivalent) stops and weighs you, they will go by the door sticker regardless of any mods done. If you are overweight, your trailer sits on the side of the road. I know they were pushing this in the BC Interior a few years back. Not sure they are still doing it. They were really focusing on 1/2 tons carrying campers (most were well overweight) but did go after trailers as well....

Door sticker eh? How aboot I register my 9000 GVWR 2500 for 12,000 lbs? I can do that 'yaknow. And I'm legal.... What would the DOT guy go by then?

Fact of the matter is he can enforce the minimum of the DOT tire rating up to 20,000 lbs per axle or 34,000 for tandem axles... as long as I have paid enough taxes.

If trying to educate of US laws, please cite a reference link. I wont comment on Canadian regulations because I don't live there and dont' pretend to understand them.

f6bits
07-19-2013, 02:09 PM
They're as safe as a 10-ton truck on an 8-ton bridge.

SAD
07-19-2013, 02:11 PM
They're as safe as a 10-ton truck on an 8-ton bridge.

:rolleyes:

RV forums are ridiculous at times.

It would be refreshing if..... oh nevermind.

Festus2
07-19-2013, 02:29 PM
After reading some of the above posts, I am thinking that it was a huge mistake on my part for submitting the original post in this thread. The OP was somewhat controversial and my hope was that any "discussion" that followed would be both calm and reasoned.

However, I should have known that somewhere along the line, there was a strong possibility that it could become negative and argumentative. It appears as though the worms in the can have started to turn.

If you want to discuss this issue - without being argumentative - here on the open forum, please do so. So, let's carry on and keep the comments constructive.

Essness
07-19-2013, 02:59 PM
I find these threads interesting. I pull with a 1/2 ton truck and I'm real close to my limit. I own a half ton on purpose. I drive it for work and need to shuttle 3 to 4 adults to and from lunch as well as pull the camper on the weekends. 90% of the time I drive the truck its a lunch shuttle and ride quality is important. The other 10% of the time breaks down as follows,
2% pull 20 foot 3400 lb boat to and from launch (1.5 blocks from the house) 4 months out of the year.
1% pull snowmobile trailer (24 foot enclosed haulmark at about 4300 lbe loaded) 2 to 3 months out of the year.
3% pull camper
3% no pulling just commuting.

rhagfo
07-19-2013, 09:55 PM
I think you are making a very good point. All trailer dealers are not alike, sitting in 1/2 ton rated Cougar TT, 30RKSWE, GVWR of 8,200Lb (34'4" long) at Curtis Trailer in Aloha Oregon I was shooting the breeze with a salesman and I offer that my tow vehicle of choice would be a 1/2 ton truck due to its comfort in around town driving, cost and MPG. The salesman looks at me and shakes his head, he did not say no but it was obvious that my choice would not be wise. Your experience speaks for itself, many 1/2-ton trucks could tow that trailer but with that length and the truck being so light and its wheelbase, it would be a white-knuckle drive.

In my previous posts I have always used the guide lines expressed in numerous books on towing and years of reading Trailer life, Guide to Towing published each year, etc. But I do not recall a formula that relates to the length of the trailer to the wheelbase and weight of the TV?

Guess all dealers don't sell at any cost!
I had a coworker/friend purchase a used TT from Curtis, it was about 30' long, he had a F250 crew cab long bed, they required that he have a WD hitch with sway control before being allowed to tow the TT off the lot!
I spend a fare amount of my RV dollars in their parts department, as they are helpful and very friendly.

I find these threads interesting. I pull with a 1/2 ton truck and I'm real close to my limit. I own a half ton on purpose. I drive it for work and need to shuttle 3 to 4 adults to and from lunch as well as pull the camper on the weekends. 90% of the time I drive the truck its a lunch shuttle and ride quality is important. The other 10% of the time breaks down as follows,
2% pull 20 foot 3400 lb boat to and from launch (1.5 blocks from the house) 4 months out of the year.
1% pull snowmobile trailer (24 foot enclosed haulmark at about 4300 lbe loaded) 2 to 3 months out of the year.
3% pull camper
3% no pulling just commuting.

Well I drive a 2500 to tow my 33' 5er for the reason I drive many two lane highways with steep hills and many turns, no shoulders with big big drop offs. I will pass on a Cadillac ride for a solid feeling and ZERO White Knuckle experience, I may only tow less than 5% of the time, but that 5% is the most important!!

RockyMtnHi2
07-19-2013, 10:28 PM
With the amount of knowledge that is both learned and earned in this group of caring and contributing members, wouldn't it be a great service to put together an advisory document that lists the things to be considered when choosing a tow vehicle/RV combination?

I certainly don't have the experience with the technical aspects, but I'd volunteer to organize and edit.

Anyone else think this would be worth the time and effort?

Jca3
07-20-2013, 10:39 AM
Totally agree Festus. We had a super lite 26RB Jayco and pulled it will a 1500. That poor truck really had to work in our mountainous terrain.
Now that we have the 2500 diesel to pull our 266RL we are so happy. Not having to listen to that labored gear shifting wondering when the whole thing was going to blow up. We found our 05 Chevy 3 years ago with 36,000 miles and after the test drive knew we had to have it. The original owner had purchased every upgrade they had at the time. I wouldn't want to have to pay full price for the new ones.
Sometimes we forget the Laredo is back there. Hmm not a good thing, but that doesn't last long. My hubby is always checking the back end. :p

buzzcop63
07-20-2013, 10:54 AM
Russ:
Over the 6 years of looking before buying my first RV I had visited Curtis in Aloha many, many times and spent hours talking to their sales people. I also was told that when they sell a trailer they would not let it off the lot if the TV does not meet safe requirements to tow. Curtis set up my trailer and truck with a WDH and Anti Sway bar. Note; I purchased truck after trailer. If you take the time to talk to sales people, telling them you do not own a TV as yet, you have a good chance of learning a great deal. Many of the salesmen I have talked to are avid RV owners and have been for many years and have a great deal of experience. No white knuckles and love the truck and trailer.

GMcKenzie
07-22-2013, 08:08 AM
Well I drive a 2500 to tow my 33' 5er for the reason I drive many two lane highways with steep hills and many turns, no shoulders with big big drop offs. I will pass on a Cadillac ride for a solid feeling and ZERO White Knuckle experience, I may only tow less than 5% of the time, but that 5% is the most important!!

I'm the same way. Might feel okay towing with one of the newer 1/2 tons if I lived in the Prairies, but towing the mountains in BC, I want to have more leeway. Capacity of 12K towing 8K just works for me.

GACamper
10-16-2013, 06:27 PM
I'm probably opening up another can of towing worms but what the heck.....

Let me give you a theoretical example:

Quite often we hear from a member who is in the midst of buying or has already bought a new RV and asks, "Will I be able to tow my new Laredo 301RE or some other TT with my F150 or whatever other truck".

Further on in his post, he goes on to list one or more of the following conditions under which he will be towing his Laredo:
1) We won't be carrying much stuff - a bit of water and minimum supplies -"We'll be travelling light".
2) We will be driving over mainly flat roads, no major hills or climbs. "It's all flat."
3) We won't be going fast. "I'll be driving slowly".
4) We won't be going far. "The campground is only 75 miles away".
5) We only go on holidays 3 times a year. "We won't be on the highways that often".

The thread continues with replies from various members who might say:
1) You are way too heavy. That TT is too much for your TV. Look at a bigger truck.
2) No problem. You'll be just fine. Go camping and enjoy.
3) I've towed my TT all over the US without a problem. "We've got the same setup. You're ok".
4) And then there is my favorite ......."Mmmmm...not sure but I think should be ok if you watch what you take, don't go into the mountains, drive slowly and stay close to home."

I read the post and the replies and ask myself.....
Why would a person buy an RV and a truck and put all these restrictions and limitations on themselves? Why would a person think that if they do, it will make it safer for themselves and for others. Isn't being beyond your payload and towing capacity unsafe under any and all conditions? What difference does it make if you go 30, 300 or 3000 miles? 55 mph or 65 mph? Unsafe is unsafe no matter how you spin it.

I am also wondering if, at times, we sometimes do a member who is close to or over the payload a disservice by telling him that it will be ok for you IF you do this or don't do that. By doing so, all we are doing is reinforcing the misconception that it is safe for him to venture out providing he meets these conditions and stays within the boundaries you have given him or that he has mistakenly set for himself.

Surely, unsafe is unsafe --under any conditions.

HOLY CRAP! This was ALMOST me!!!! :eek:

I'm looking into buying our first TT. Not known diddly from squat about nothing, I asked a lot of questions on this forum, and BOY AM I GLAD I DID!!!

My current TV is a 2008, Toyota Sequoia Limited. Before this forum I thought that if my truck says it can tow 10K lbs, and my trailer is under that, then I'm good... OR SO I THOUGHT. I now know better! I could have KILLED my wife and kids!!!

I'm looking into trading my Sequoia for a diesel Excursion now.... Still trying to investigate if the Excursion is going to be enough to haul my (soon to be mine) Sprinter 316BIK (at least thats the TT we want).

Good post, BTW! That explained my dumb-butt almost to a "T". Glad Im smart enough to research before I buy! lol

- Doug

ktmracer
10-16-2013, 07:26 PM
Russ:
Over the 6 years of looking before buying my first RV I had visited Curtis in Aloha many, many times and spent hours talking to their sales people. I also was told that when they sell a trailer they would not let it off the lot if the TV does not meet safe requirements to tow. Curtis set up my trailer and truck with a WDH and Anti Sway bar. Note; I purchased truck after trailer. If you take the time to talk to sales people, telling them you do not own a TV as yet, you have a good chance of learning a great deal. Many of the salesmen I have talked to are avid RV owners and have been for many years and have a great deal of experience. No white knuckles and love the truck and trailer.

My experience with Curtis has been very similar. When I started looking at a Outback 295RE, the FIRST thing the salesman asked was "What is your tow vehicle" and they sales document required me to state what the intended tow vehicle would be. (Silverado 2500HD)

So, I agree, not all dealers will say "O sure you can tow that!".

RGene7001
10-16-2013, 09:29 PM
I'm probably opening up another can of towing worms but what the heck.....

Let me give you a theoretical example:

Quite ofTheten we hear from a member who is in the midst of buying or has already bought a new RV and asks, "Will I be able to tow my new Laredo 301RE or some other TT with my F150 or whatever other truck".

Further on in his post, he goes on to list one or more of the following conditions under which he will be towing his Laredo:
1) We won't be carrying much stuff - a bit of water and minimum supplies -"We'll be travelling light".
2) We will be driving over mainly flat roads, no major hills or climbs. "It's all flat."
3) We won't be going fast. "I'll be driving slowly".
4) We won't be going far. "The campground is only 75 miles away".
5) We only go on holidays 3 times a year. "We won't be on the highways that often".

The thread continues with replies from various members who might say:
1) You are way too heavy. That TT is too much for your TV. Look at a bigger truck.
2) No problem. You'll be just fine. Go camping and enjoy.
3) I've towed my TT all over the US without a problem. "We've got the same setup. You're ok".
4) And then there is my favorite ......."Mmmmm...not sure but I think should be ok if you watch what you take, don't go into the mountains, drive slowly and stay close to home."

I read the post and the replies and ask myself.....
Why would a person buy an RV and a truck and put all these restrictions and limitations on themselves? Why would a person think that if they do, it will make it safer for themselves and for others. Isn't being beyond your payload and towing capacity unsafe under any and all conditions? What difference does it make if you go 30, 300 or 3000 miles? 55 mph or 65 mph? Unsafe is unsafe no matter how you spin it.

I am also wondering if, at times, we sometimes do a member who is close to or over the payload a disservice by telling him that it will be ok for you IF you do this or don't do that. By doing so, all we are doing is reinforcing the misconception that it is safe for him to venture out providing he meets these conditions and stays within the boundaries you have given him or that he has mistakenly set for himself.

Surely, unsafe is unsafe --under any conditions.

I certainly did not forget all the hard time given to me by quite a few people, including friends and family members while we considered using our existing ML for towing. But it was not a bad time, they actually forced me to study and read more and embrace logical and holistic approach to towing and became a better driver.
A year and several thousand miles later I can go through the above 5 point checklist.
1. Although there are only three of us, we carry more stuff and clothes than we really need, including bigger and better toys, electric piano, screen tent, tire inflator/ engine starter..... And we never run out of fresh water on the way to the campground and back.
2.We drove mostly over flats, Florida is 400 miles long, but we were climbing 5-6% grades on the interstates (55-60 mph, 4th gear, 4000rpms). The truck struggled no more than an airplane during takeoff, and it sounded beautifully through double tailpipes.
Off the interstates there were even steeper grades, but they were never a problem due yo much lower speed. And 10700 lb combo is not accelerating downhill that easily BTW, is really about weigh vs wind resistance plus engine breaking.
3. On the flats we usually stayed within 62-67 mph, did not feel any worse than people with HD trucks and fivers. Were passed by big rigs and passed many of them.
4. The trips ranged from 45 to 1370 miles one way.
5. We had 90 days of camping over a year totally, although I had to leave for a work and come back several times.
We still have more than 400 lb of spare payload.
I certainly agree that good (bad) 30 miles predict good(bad) 3000 miles but everyone needs to start from short trips on order to get skills and confidence.
Now, after a few smooth and comfortable trips my DW wants to start driving with trailer after initial apprehension, so I can watch some movies in the back seat. An offer, which is difficult to refuse.....

Festus2
10-16-2013, 10:05 PM
RGene7001 -

And you can do all of those things because you have a TV and a TT which are a safe combination and do not have or require any self-imposed restrictions. My point was that some people do not have a safe set up and therefore place limitations on what they can do thinking that, by doing so, it will somehow makes things "safe".

The 5 points were merely set out as examples of some the reasons some folks use to say, "I'll be okay as long as I ....."

TomHaycraft
10-17-2013, 03:09 AM
Wow, how did I miss this thread this year? Six pages worth of posts, could not get through all of them this morning. Nothing better to stir a discussion on an RV forum.

One item, didn't run across, but was the topic of standard tow ratings (J2807) brought up? The big-3 (now 4, with Toyota) inflate their stats for marketing purposes. We start off with questionable capacities and ratings that don't likely translate from one company to another.

For me, my truck came first, didn't think I'd be in a position to buy a trailer this soon. I did my research, while at GAWR rear, am only at 80% of tow rating when packed to the gills. I have found my limitations, 10% grade isn't pretty, glad when I find them, they aren't too long here in Texas! No, it isn't in the cards for me to drive over Wolf Creek Pass, or Slumgullion, or Trail Ridge Road. But dang, there are more miles that I can drive, that I will never have the time or money to cover.

My glass is 1/2 full. I see many posts from folks who have the outlook of being 1/2 empty ("why buy and have these limitations?"). I'm out camping once a month, 12 months out of the year. Hooking up tonight, heading for the Piney Woods of East Texas tomorrow morning. I'll be eastbound on Hwy 79 at first light!

Jazz38
10-17-2013, 04:19 AM
Festus and Javi are spot on. Make all the excuses you can come up with, but these two guys are telling it to you straight. " You don't get to be an old fart by being stupid"

zuley
10-17-2013, 04:39 AM
Too many rely on what their supposedly honest salesmen tell them to be the truth. Let me ask the group this... Have any of you ever had a salesman tell you that your TV is not big or strong enough for that TT? For the most part these guys do not give a rats *** about you once you pull away from their lot. I know it is up to the buyer to do the due diligence and research to know prior to signing their name that what they have a safe combination truck and trailer. I myself, ended up spending a whole bunch more money after buying my TT to purchase a truck because I felt after the fact I was not safe. We had looked a numerous trailers and every salesman told us we would be good to go with our TV. Incidentally, we purchased the smallest of all the TT's we looked at. I had some jack *** tell me I could pull a 6800 pound dry 28 foot TT with my Grand Cherokee. To top it off, he got pissy with me when I called him on it.
All I'm trying to say here is that too many people, myself included, rely on what is told to them by their salesman to be gospel. It was through this forum that I was shown how to actually determine and calculate a safe tow load.

allmi01
10-17-2013, 06:13 AM
This is a great, however long thread. Great work to all who have contributed.

Let me add one more thing. The tow rating of a TV is determined by a combination of pwer train HP / torque (and all fo them use this to over inflate the numbers), braking capacity, frame strength, GAWR, and suspension.

Changing the brake, springs, shocks, adding air bags, changing tires, etc will not change the GVWR / GCWR. Everyone who stated DOT goes by the door sticker is correct.

And yes, I'm one of those accidents waiting to happen towing my 36' Couguar with a 10k GVWR with my Excursion. I'm well under the GCWR, bit over GVWR on the Excursion. THis truck weighs in at 8000 with a 200 lb driver and a full tank of diesel. Add 1500 lbs for tongue weight and a technical overload exists. (9300 - 8000 curb weight = 1300 capacity). I use the max GWVR always. It is safer to assume you are at the max. If you weigh in less, all good.

The overload condition is why I purchased the F350 CC dually. When it is back in service, it will be the TV!

As to flat lands vs. mountains, I towed my previous TT (04 Sprinter 303BHS with a 10K GVWR) with the Excursion pretty much from coast to coast. When I am in the mountains, I use the semi truck rule. go wup th egrade in the same gear you wan tot come down in. I have a monitor to look at EGT's (exhaust gas temps) and kept them under 1250 and kept engine coolant temp under 230. I didn't stress the power train up ill or down. Yes I went up 6 to 8 % grades between 35 and 45 and came down the same speeds. Safety and not white knuckles for me or the DW. Speed kills. We own RV's to enjoy the outdoors, The trip should be a part of that. I drive in the 58 to 63 MPH range. easier on the rig and my nerves. Enjoy the dirve as well as the destination.

Maybe I'm gettting old, but to quote an old Roman, Rashness is the sing of youth, prudence that of mellowed age and dicression is the better part of valor. I'd rather arrive later than not arrive at all.

Mike

TomHaycraft
10-18-2013, 03:57 AM
Too many rely on what their supposedly honest salesmen tell them to be the truth. Let me ask the group this... Have any of you ever had a salesman tell you that your TV is not big or strong enough for that TT?

Wasn't the salesman, or the sales manager, but a guy behind the parts counter. The sales folks I dealt with, did not want to talk about the gravitational force (aka payload capacity) or horizontal force to pull or stop the trailer. I knew what I had read, but with no experience with these size trailers. I was leery, was talking to the parts guy about hitch options and his voice of experience spoke. Did I mention I was at Crestview RV in Georgetown, TX?

I found the trailer in Abilene, 210 miles away. Four round trips, first to see it and confirm it was what I wanted, 2nd to pick it up, 3rd to drop it off for some warranty work on the nose, 4th to retrieve it. I got to know the road well. Franklin's Big Country RV Outlet in Abilene, great people, would purchase from them again in a heart beat.

thekid
10-18-2013, 05:29 AM
Well said!!

rough rider
10-18-2013, 03:03 PM
My wife and I recently purchased a Raptor 384, our tow vehicle is a 2011 Ram 3500 dually. When we asked the factory rep if this set up would work his response was to check the tow vehicle guide. So far Keystone was the only company that gave this respone and it is much appreciated. When speaking to individual rv outlets and other competitors of Keystone Raptor the answer was sure a 1 ton is fine.We all know that the big three 1 tons are all capable depending on configuration. Of course it would be nice to have an MTD or a Prevost but most of us have a budget we have to live with.

fla-gypsy
10-18-2013, 06:09 PM
I have 30 years experience in Industrial safety management and my training and experience tell me that exceeding any of the maximum established ratings of the manufacturer are by definition unsafe.

Exceeding any of the ratings is in my opinion an unacceptable risk. Will your truck self destruct if you go 1 lb over? No, but how much will it take for a serious component to fail and result in a crash. I would never want that to happen to anyone. My view may be ridiculed by some as the thread develops but I will not get involved in arguments over it.

My experience in regulatory/industrial safety compliance, accident investigation, hazard recognition and consequence awareness makes any unnecessary risk simply unacceptable to me. All risk can never be eliminated, why accept those that can? Always consider what can happen, and what your families safety is worth to you?

RGene7001
10-18-2013, 06:41 PM
I have 30 years experience in Industrial safety management and my training and experience tell me that exceeding any of the maximum established ratings of the manufacturer are by definition unsafe.

Exceeding any of the ratings is in my opinion an unacceptable risk. Will your truck self destruct if you go 1 lb over? No, but how much will it take for a serious component to fail and result in a crash. I would never want that to happen to anyone. My view may be ridiculed by some as the thread develops but I will not get involved in arguments over it.

My experience in regulatory/industrial safety compliance, accident investigation, hazard recognition and consequence awareness makes any unnecessary risk simply unacceptable to me. All risk can never be eliminated, why accept those that can? Always consider what can happen, and what your families safety is worth to you?

Fla-gypsy,
let me ask you a couple of stupid questions:
1. We may argue about this and many other things but it is generally accepted that Europeans are much more stringent on their approach to safety and standardization than Americans. My Mercedes E550 is rated to tow 4600 lb in Europe and zero pounds here. Does it make sense to you?
2. If someone attaches a jetski or rental Uhaul trailer behind E550 or similar vehicle via appropriately rated and professionally installed hitch, would you consider this person a public menace putting his family and general public at unacceptable risk?

And one less stupid question:
According to Wikipedia and other sources, a motorcycle rider risks his life 20-30 times more compared to a car driver. Are you aware about similar studies and risk odds related to trailer towing and RVing compared to driving solo?
Thank you.

BlindGuyNAR
10-18-2013, 07:20 PM
Stop me if you've heard this one "How many members of the weight police can post to one single thread?"

fla-gypsy
10-18-2013, 07:25 PM
Fla-gypsy,
let me ask you a couple of stupid questions:
1. We may argue about this and many other things but it is generally accepted that Europeans are much more stringent on their approach to safety and standardization than Americans. My Mercedes E550 is rated to tow 4600 lb in Europe and zero pounds here. Does it make sense to you?
2. If someone attaches a jetski or rental Uhaul trailer behind E550 or similar vehicle via appropriately rated and professionally installed hitch, would you consider this person a public menace putting his family and general public at unacceptable risk?

And one less stupid question:
According to Wikipedia and other sources, a motorcycle rider risks his life 20-30 times more compared to a car driver. Are you aware about similar studies and risk odds related to trailer towing and RVing compared to driving solo?
Thank you.

Perhaps you missed this in my original post to this thread.

"My view may be ridiculed by some as the thread develops but I will not get involved in arguments over it."

Others can choose to do whatever they want.

RGene7001
10-18-2013, 07:42 PM
Too many rely on what their supposedly honest salesmen tell them to be the truth. Let me ask the group this... Have any of you ever had a salesman tell you that your TV is not big or strong enough for that TT? .

Let's first have some fun and imagine the situation when an electronics store salesman refuses to sell a big screen TV to a 18 years old guy who wants to watch porn because he sincerely believes that porn odds immoral, bad for this customer and the society in general, although the customer tries to argue passionately that is legal and even has legitimate use.
The salesman is probably very decent and honest man but... there other equally important virtues in this world......
I was in very similar situation a year and a half ago.
DW and me went to Lazydays Tampa to look at different Passport floorplans, they had a pretty decent stock. I wanted 252 floorplan due to lower weight and possibility to have a game/ media room in the back. Of course, my wife rejected it, she liked the super slide and space of 2650. We decided to place an order. However, the salesperson looked at my ML, opened Ford Towing Guide and refused to sell any trailer to us, because my 2WD ML is rated for 4600lb according to this guide, vs 7200 lb for 4wd version. (I received already three professional opinions and they all agreed that these two versions have absolutely identical bodies, engines, cooling, transmissions, wheels, springs, brakes and there are no technical reasons for a lower rating, unless I need to pull 7200lb boat on the wet ramp)
Eventually the salesperson said that Lazydays makes millions by selling motorhome and they don't want to expose themselves to liability because of stupid trailer. Honesty????????
It was not a nice experience but I definitely ignored his advise to spend another 20k or more in order to trade my vehicle and get a 4wd version if I like this horrible TV, a puny pseudo truck so much. Of course, I found another dealership, much closer to home and they were very happy to sell 2650 to us, provided me with hitch height, so I could go to Andy Thomson to get full outfit and fix one very important ML problem ( We stayed in upstate NY resort that summer so it was not a very long trip.)
That's the story.
Good nite and good luck.

RGene7001
10-18-2013, 08:15 PM
Perhaps you missed this in my original post to this thread.

"My view may be ridiculed by some as the thread develops but I will not get involved in arguments over it."

Others can choose to do whatever they want.

This response was totally expected.
Regarding my last question....(FYI)
According to NHTSA web site, vehicles with trailers are involved in about 2% of all lethal accidents. This number certainly includes semis, utility trailers, etc. How many accidents and death are linked to RV and what are the odds is unknown. It is apparently very small, not a major public health problem to get into it and I strongly suspect that overall risk is not very different from driving solo. But I am really curious to see any real data

TomHaycraft
10-19-2013, 03:03 AM
According to Wikipedia and other sources, a motorcycle rider risks his life 20-30 times more compared to a car driver. Are you aware about similar studies and risk odds related to trailer towing and RVing compared to driving solo?
Thank you.

You bring up a good point. Within the RV industry, unless I've missed it in my many searches, there has not been a comprehensive report on risk and causative factors leading to RV accidents. Also a motorcyclist, I have found very interesting, the pioneering work done by Professor Harry Hurt at USC, who in 1981 published what has been widely referenced as the Hurt Report.

The Hurt Report has its flaws; however, it helped to establish a benchmark on factors related to motorcycle accidents. If only it would be updates with the different age of riders these days and motorcycles available.

The RV industry needs something similar. We can all spout and postulate about our "experience" but nothing makes the case like numbers and good science. Have I missed it in my searches? What is the true risk in various configurations, over/under weight ratings, inside or outside of TV to trailer length ratios, tire failures, etc?

SAD
10-19-2013, 05:06 AM
I have 30 years experience in Industrial safety management and my training and experience tell me that exceeding any of the maximum established ratings of the manufacturer are by definition unsafe.

Exceeding any of the ratings is in my opinion an unacceptable risk. Will your truck self destruct if you go 1 lb over? No, but how much will it take for a serious component to fail and result in a crash. I would never want that to happen to anyone. My view may be ridiculed by some as the thread develops but I will not get involved in arguments over it.

My experience in regulatory/industrial safety compliance, accident investigation, hazard recognition and consequence awareness makes any unnecessary risk simply unacceptable to me. All risk can never be eliminated, why accept those that can? Always consider what can happen, and what your families safety is worth to you?

I know you do not wish to discuss... You're just putting your opinion out there... So I shall do the same.

It's my view that many of the manufacturer ratings (GCWR specifically) are not (primarily) safety related. They are focused on the all-might profit margin...

The tow rating (which is derived from CGWR), is nothing more (ok, not 100%, but you get the idea) than a number which is meant to:

1) give average joe, average performance, under average conditions
all the while....
2) minimizing warranty claims
3) staying competitive with market peers
4) minimizing legal exposure
all of which
5) maximizes profit margin

Randy_K
10-19-2013, 07:06 AM
I have been told driving my dirt bike is dangerous.

I have been told driving my road bike is dangerous.

I have been told towing my TT is dangerous.

I have been told going into the USA is dangerous.

Perhaps building a bomb shelter and sitting in it waiting to die is the best bet.

While some people are using rigs that are not well matched , there are people on here that would tell a new camper that he needs a 1 ton 4X4 dually diesel with a spare fuel cell to take his four man tent camping, " so he has no restrictions "

There is a lot of good information on here , and a lot that is not. The job is sifting threw and separating the two.

Common sense is not common:banghead:

Randy_K
10-19-2013, 07:22 AM
Posted it twice ?

Ken / Claudia
10-19-2013, 08:51 AM
The data on crashs is collected real good on a crash report. I did Oregons but, have seen afew other states as well and they are similar, I think the insurence co.s help with what goes on them since they want that as much or more than courts.(that is opinion only).
The rv crashs are only a small percent of all crashs, if somone where to go to Oregon DMV or another state and pay or spend many hours looking thru data you could see patterns,there always seens patterns in data. In Oregon the most common rv crash we seen or discuessed at training etc was driver falling alsleep. When someone drives careless, to fast, has poor, faulty equipment etc. etc those show up to but, how many crashs are caused by over weight loads? Not much. Data that we used at talks was comm. vehicles crashs (vehicles over 10,000 lbs used for work) are involved in less than 10% of all vehicle crashs but, have 90% chance of death or major injury. Of all passenger vehicles crashs only about 10% result in death/major injury. That was all of USA. That data MIGHT show that weight involved with the crashing vehicles has a affect on chance of injury/death.

Javi
10-19-2013, 09:06 AM
There are people that will argue until the cows come home that you can tow a 10K travel trailer with a VW Beatle and there are people who will tell them they're wrong with equal persistence. The same could be said about those on both sides of the overkill argument.

I'm gonna just say tow it with whatever you want, if you end up in the ditch with the dirty side up or you kill the folks in the other lane then you might have been a bit overloaded. ;)

Essness
10-20-2013, 05:22 AM
Bottom line in my opinion, YOUR decision to pull with the equipment you have, proper or not potentially effects all the others on the road around you at that time.
Own your decision and remember, if you chose poorly, IT IS YOUR FAULT!

alexsbuddy
10-20-2013, 08:54 AM
I am fairly new to travel trailer world and have spent a lot of time trying to understand all of the various components of safe towing. I finally decided to put my math and Excel skills to work and created a spreadsheet that calculates the various components; tow capacity, payload capacity, vehicle curb weight, gross axle weight, gross combined weight, gross vehicle weight, etc...Using this I was able to determine a few things using my 2005 F150 XLT 5.4L (with factory spec'd tires) and my 2001 Sprinter 274RLS (just acquired) as the subject vehicles. First of all, while my F150 has plenty of tow capacity (actual used is 80% of max), it barely passes the test for GAWR, GCWR, and GVWR (all of these are 94% to 98% of max) which reaffirms my belief that I need a "bigger horse to pull my wagon". While I do not have enough information or skills to know whether 80% or 90% of maximums is the "safe" benchmark, I would think that anything over 85%-90% of maximum puts a significant strain on the tow vehicle (particularly on steep grades) and, therefore, is not a wise choice. I want to be able to travel from Point A to Point B without worrying the whole trip.

Jca3
10-20-2013, 01:27 PM
Whew Festus when you started this thread you said you may be opening a can of worms. Does this one take the record for longest thread on any post?
You can be happy though that at least a few folks have read and re-thought their towing capacity. I just know we appreciate our bigger truck every time we take it out. Sometimes we forget what we are pulling because it does it with ease."bouncey:

Festus2
10-20-2013, 01:37 PM
I think that there are some longer threads than this one but you are right in that it has been a rather large can of worms that was opened. Throughout its course, it has remained essentially positive and pretty much focused on the safety issue - which are all good!

I thought that for a while it had pretty much died out, as most threads are prone to do, but it was resurrected and has lately taken on a renewed life. Perhaps the reason being is that many folks are putting or have put their RV's to bed for the winter and now have more "forum time" available.

SAD
10-20-2013, 02:41 PM
..... Perhaps the reason being is that many folks are putting or have put their RV's to bed for the winter and now have more "forum time" available.

Bite your tongue!

RGene7001
10-20-2013, 05:32 PM
I think that there are some longer threads than this one but you are right in that it has been a rather large can of worms that was opened. Throughout its course, it has remained essentially positive and pretty much focused on the safety issue - which are all good!

I thought that for a while it had pretty much died out, as most threads are prone to do, but it was resurrected and has lately taken on a renewed life. Perhaps the reason being is that many folks are putting or have put their RV's to bed for the winter and now have more "forum time" available.

It turned out to be a can of big and fat nightcrawlers, in both direct and indirect sense.
My Passport was successfully prepared for the winter by the dealer and it did not include winterizing. Tomorrow morning I am setting the course to Bryn Mawr at St. Augustine. Will test their Wi-Fi:banghead: and hopefully will write something

Javi
10-20-2013, 05:55 PM
Perhaps the reason being is that many folks are putting or have put their RV's to bed for the winter and now have more "forum time" available.

Nope, this is the best camping weather down here. We're headed to the gulf coast in a couple of weeks. I generally blow the lines and drain the low points and water heater between trips, just in case we get a blue norther.

rhagfo
10-20-2013, 08:14 PM
I'm probably opening up another can of towing worms but what the heck.....

Let me give you a theoretical example:

Quite often we hear from a member who is in the midst of buying or has already bought a new RV and asks, "Will I be able to tow my new Laredo 301RE or some other TT with my F150 or whatever other truck".

Further on in his post, he goes on to list one or more of the following conditions under which he will be towing his Laredo:
1) We won't be carrying much stuff - a bit of water and minimum supplies -"We'll be travelling light".
2) We will be driving over mainly flat roads, no major hills or climbs. "It's all flat."
3) We won't be going fast. "I'll be driving slowly".
4) We won't be going far. "The campground is only 75 miles away".
5) We only go on holidays 3 times a year. "We won't be on the highways that often". ....................


............... Isn't being beyond your payload and towing capacity unsafe under any and all conditions? What difference does it make if you go 30, 300 or 3000 miles? 55 mph or 65 mph? Unsafe is unsafe no matter how you spin it.

I am also wondering if, at times, we sometimes do a member who is close to or over the payload a disservice by telling him that it will be ok for you IF you do this or don't do that. By doing so, all we are doing is reinforcing the misconception that it is safe for him to venture out providing he meets these conditions and stays within the boundaries you have given him or that he has mistakenly set for himself.

Surely, unsafe is unsafe --under any conditions.

Festus2, I think a lot depends on the TV and if it needs to have suspension mods to tow over it's GVWR.

I tow over my GVWR, but well under axle and tire ratings, that said I am the Pot speaking to the Kettle.

Our 01 Ram with camper Package, doesn't have any suspension mods, other than a set of Bilstien 5100 shocks. We don't even get to the stock overloads, and truck sits level hitched up.

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_100038_0_ad18fe3dd903faf909c4e27801387243.jpg

That said, the question to those kettles, is would they feel safe driving on this road at 55 to 60 mph?? This is not a side road it is the main highway between Portland, OR. and one of the largest SP (over 500 sites) in the states. The whole road is not this bad, much is better, but there is also area with no shoulder and 30' drop offs.

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_100038_1_c8fb62dfee7c30ed3d25ae1f29ee2f6c.jpg

ktmracer
10-21-2013, 11:41 AM
rhagfo:

sunset, no problem. cornelius pass from 26 down to st. helens. (or up). That's what folks need be able to do in comfort and safety with whatever combo they have.

rhagfo
10-21-2013, 03:36 PM
rhagfo:

sunset, no problem. cornelius pass from 26 down to st. helens. (or up). That's what folks need be able to do in comfort and safety with whatever combo they have.

Yep, one the first roads i drove with the TV (no 5er), as I bought in St. Helen's, that is one nasty road.

rhagfo
10-22-2013, 05:56 AM
rhagfo:

sunset, no problem. cornelius pass from 26 down to st. helens. (or up). That's what folks need be able to do in comfort and safety with whatever combo they have.

Well, The Sunset (HY26) isn't always dry and sunny either. This is a picture from our return from a four day trip to the coast in January 2011. No traffic was not going 55 to 60, more like 35 to 45!!

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_100192_0_19e5609f584a011f533928a10c99c090.jpg

Ron R
10-22-2013, 03:42 PM
There are people that will argue until the cows come home that you can tow a 10K travel trailer with a VW Beatle and there are people who will tell them they're wrong with equal persistence. The same could be said about those on both sides of the overkill argument.

I'm gonna just say tow it with whatever you want, if you end up in the ditch with the dirty side up or you kill the folks in the other lane then you might have been a bit overloaded. ;)

I like this.

RGene7001
10-22-2013, 04:20 PM
Well, The Sunset (HY26) isn't always dry and sunny either. This is a picture from our return from a four day trip to the coast in January 2011. No traffic was not going 55 to 60, more like 35 to 45!!

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_100263_0_19e5609f584a011f533928a10c99c090.jpg

Absolutely beautiful picture, thank you. We are here in SoFla 11 years without snow! But we already rented a cabin in Vermont, as well as JGC to get there!

Ken / Claudia
10-22-2013, 08:48 PM
I elk hunt in eastern Oregon, Nov/Dec and have drove across Oregon on I84 2 times in 4 wheel drive on snow/ice all day. That is when I only went 35 mph up and down hills even on the flats pulling a 30 ft trailer. 1 set of tire chains on rear of truck and front axle of trailer on the big hills.

Koladog
10-30-2013, 09:26 AM
Having read all these warnings about matching TV and trailer and one comment made me think about something. Can someone verify that my setup is ok? I have a 2011 F350 Turbo Diesel with a short box (6.7 feet) which I originally purchased to haul a small Northern Light Camper. We recently upgraded to a Mountaineer 295RKD, 10,000lbs dry weight, 34 feet long and I use a superglide hitch. I know my towing capacity and carrying capacity are fine but how about the length of the trailer itself? Is it unsafe to tow a long fiver with a short bed truck? What if I decide in the future to go big with a 40ft 5er?

Randy_K
10-30-2013, 01:19 PM
Having read all these warnings about matching TV and trailer and one comment made me think about something. Can someone verify that my setup is ok? I have a 2011 F350 Turbo Diesel with a short box (6.7 feet) which I originally purchased to haul a small Northern Light Camper. We recently upgraded to a Mountaineer 295RKD, 10,000lbs dry weight, 34 feet long and I use a superglide hitch. I know my towing capacity and carrying capacity are fine but how about the length of the trailer itself? Is it unsafe to tow a long fiver with a short bed truck? What if I decide in the future to go big with a 40ft 5er?

What is the Wheel base ? You can have a short bed but still have a long wheel base depending on the cab.

Koladog
10-30-2013, 01:30 PM
The wheelbase 172 inches.

JRTJH
10-30-2013, 01:54 PM
The wheelbase 172 inches.

Unless Ford has changed the chassis since 2011(there have been no other structural changes), the wheelbase for the Superduty series crew cab short box is 156.2" and the crew cab long box is 172.4". You indicated you have a F350 Crew Cab Short Box (6.7') which is the 156.2" Wheelbase, not the 172.4" wheelbase.

Are you sure of your wheelbase?

Koladog
10-30-2013, 02:00 PM
I got that number from the VIN report but you're right the wheelbase is 156 inches for the short box. Thanks.

jsmith948
10-31-2013, 07:13 AM
Well, The Sunset (HY26) isn't always dry and sunny either. This is a picture from our return from a four day trip to the coast in January 2011. No traffic was not going 55 to 60, more like 35 to 45!!

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_101359_0_19e5609f584a011f533928a10c99c090.jpg

Has anyone else noticed that, while the convoy of SUVs running in front of rhagfo are stacked up dangerously close together, our friend Russ is maintaining a safe distance behind this 'accident waiting to happen'? Love Oregon in the winter! Trucked up and down I-5 & Hwy 97 for many years. Great photo:)

Ken / Claudia
10-31-2013, 04:53 PM
That reminds me of one of the 19 years I had to work I84 on snow/ice or shut it down. I was in 4x4 at 30-35 mph chains on the 4 tires. Police lights on (8 of them) in a marked truck, checking the freeway. This guy comes up at 50-60 passes me by switching lanes, goes sideways and crashes. No one injuried, no tow needed, he said it was ok, he was in 4x4. He got a careless driving ticket from me and went to court. The judge said he would have fined him more if he was allowed, some folks just never get it.

jlb27537
11-17-2013, 09:36 AM
Having read all these warnings about matching TV and trailer and one comment made me think about something. Can someone verify that my setup is ok? I have a 2011 F350 Turbo Diesel with a short box (6.7 feet) which I originally purchased to haul a small Northern Light Camper. We recently upgraded to a Mountaineer 295RKD, 10,000lbs dry weight, 34 feet long and I use a superglide hitch. I know my towing capacity and carrying capacity are fine but how about the length of the trailer itself? Is it unsafe to tow a long fiver with a short bed truck? What if I decide in the future to go big with a 40ft 5er?

Your truck probably is a SRW. Most likely if you go to a 40' you will be over your GVWR of the truck cause of the pin weight. The charts show a SRW will tow more than a DRW, that is because a SRW truck is lighter and they work off tow ratings, not real world weights.

Don't believe anything in the brochure for weights. Look at the GVWR of the trailer, multiply by .22-.25 and you will be close to actual pin weight. Brochure weight for my 3150RL is 2,410lbs. My actual is 3,180lbs. My GVWR is 14,900 lbs. 14900 x .22 = 3,278lbs. A lot of folks are pulling 40' stuff with short bed trucks, they do it all the time. Either because it is a daily driver, wife does not want a DRW, insurance is higher on a truck over 9900GVWR, etc.

After you have towed a larger trailer with a DRW truck, you will never go back. The downside is it is a large truck. Probably will not fit in the garage. or the parking space at work. The upside, will tow my 3150RL like it is not even there, no wind or sway issues, and no one says I do not have enough truck. But being retired, no problems @ work and it will fit in my 3 car garage.

Jim

Boaz
11-17-2013, 06:22 PM
While at the RV show, a rep from Keystone told me that any of the ultra lights there could be towed with my GMC 1500. They did not know that it also was a Texas edition and had an Heavy Duty towing package. Tranny cooler, over-sized alternator, four wheel disk brakes and was pre-wired for trailer and trailer brakes. They also quoted me a range of insurance cost as well as storage costs for the area. I soon found out they did not know what they were talking about after talking to my insurance agent. Even more so after checking into trailer storage pricing. So, before I took possession, I got out the GMC Sierra manual and took stock. A very complete chart was there with every limit for my particular vehicle. It turns out I am not anywhere near the limit. I have towed it with the concern only that of a person who has not towed a trailer in a couple of decades.
So like the other folks are saying here, don't believe what any sales rep or Manufacturers rep tells you. Don't believe anything you see on this Forum. No offense folks on the Forum. Do your own due diligence!
That sales rep or manufacturer rep are not going to be on the side of a highway with you when or if something goes wrong.

BobnLee
11-17-2013, 07:27 PM
I too got caught up in this. I had a 2009 F150 pulled my 26SAB to Florida and back no problems. I was over on my weights when loaded with water. Got into some big hills in Maine and didn't like that very much. So my personal decision was if I wanted to pull the trailer anywhere without worries I needed a bigger TV. Back in lots of debt now with the 3/4 250 diesel. Pulls great, lots of truck for this trailer. If you are maxing out with your weights, I wonder what your insurance company will do if (god forbid) something happened and they found out you were exceeding your GVW or axle weights. Had I bought the 3/4 ton first I could have had a bigger trailer. There is no way the DW will let me upsize now I would loose my shirt on the trade.

Festus2
11-17-2013, 07:43 PM
[QUOTE=Boaz;103053] Don't believe anything you see on this Forum. No offense folks on the Forum.
QUOTE]

As a long time member of this forum, I have come to respect and believe both the advice and expertise of many of our members. You may not value their counsel or have any confidence in what they say but there are many who do and have been helped in solving problems or are just getting started in RVing.

I am also puzzled about your statement above when, in the New Member Check In, you stated that, "I have learned more from the Forum than from the dealer. The more I find out, the more questions I have".

If you "don't believe anything you see on this Forum", that is your choice but I take exception when you advise others not to believe anything that they read here. If you find that what is written here has no substance, then you are free to seek out some other forum that is less misleading and more factual. I apologize for us in not meeting your lofty expectations.

But... what do I know? Don't believe anything I say - you saw it here.

BobnLee
11-17-2013, 08:12 PM
Well said Festus. I have been absorbing an incredible amount of information from this forum since joining. I am shocked that I'm learning it from people that shouldnt be believed. I like Ken/Claudia also worked in Law enforcement and enforced Commercial vehicle laws in Ontario. My oldest brother taught me to drive commercial vehicles and was taught in a 1963 B61 two stick Mack.(quite illegal I was only 15 yrs old out on the back roads by myself 2 sticking) My hobby for years was driving tractor trailers on my 6 day off cycles. When I retired I drove truck for 3 yrs before getting back into enforcement on a full time basis in a small town. Maybe we have a little something in common Ken. Owning these are quite a bit different than the big rigs so it aint my first rodeo.driven lots of trucks and was the truck trainer for a large Police force in Ontario. Thanks for everyone who contributes to this forum I am beginning to think I know more than
the sales people thanks to people here. By the way most truckers out there now have never heard of a 2 stick Mack or any other make that had a two stick transmission They were quite popular in the 60's You tube has some
great videos

twstdpear
11-17-2013, 08:13 PM
It seems to me that Boaz might have been simply trying to say don't rely on the rep, dealer or even this forum as your single and only source of information. Rather, listen to your dealer, read what's here, and apply some critical thinking towards the matter. Do some of your own additional research (e.g., TV manuals, google) and combine all of that to help you reach a conclusion.

Or at least that's how I interpreted it.

- shrug -

BobnLee
11-17-2013, 08:29 PM
After reading the post again it says that be wary of what you hear Especially from dealers who will sell you anything And like any other forums there are people that like to like on the edge. Load it and weight It Load the front axle the rear axle with the trailer hooked an then weigh the rear trailer axles. add em up and do the math the scales are your friends and you will able to see if you are within you specs. What you do with that info is for you to decide.

davidjsimons
11-18-2013, 12:34 AM
By the way most truckers out there now have never heard of a 2 stick Mack or any other make that had a two stick transmission They were quite popular in the 60's You tube has some
great videos
Mack Duplex, just stick one arm through the wheel to brace the spoke as you shift with both hands.



2013 Cougar 28 RBS
2012 Ram 3500 Dually
6.7 Cummins H.O.
4.10 rears.

LittleJoe
11-19-2013, 07:52 PM
Yup that was back in the day when most any truck driver could fix and carried tools to do so, anything outside of major.

I personally was on a road repair call to a scale yard two years ago. The DOT officer had removed a Volvo rig from service. It had (no exageration) just less than 1/2 TURN of freeplay at steering wheel and the driver was mad..........New box fixed it but he could have killed who knows how many.

greengiant
11-25-2013, 10:45 AM
I'm new to the forum, but I've had a similar experience as some. Started off 5 years ago with a Dakota 4x4 quad cab with a 5K tow max. Ended up with a 4000lb dry 26' box and I played that game for 3 years until I upgraded truck to a 2011 f250 6.2 gas crew cab short box. Got the bigger truck last year, then got in the market on bigger trailer and now have a 2013 hideout 29bhs TT (7200 dry, 9600 gross).

I was always white knuckled with the dodge towing, and was always trying to haul as little as possible, but that was always hard. Bottom line is, I was unsafe with that setup, but it took me 3 years to change it. It comes down to everyone just being open to what others are saying and don't be too stubborn to listen to good advice. I think we can all agree that we want to be safe, but one persons idea of safe is different that anothers'.

BTW, that TT I have is under 10k gross, and it says in the brochure 'half ton towable', and I've seen guys pulling same size units with 1/2 ton's, and they say they are great, but I just don't know how. When I'm loaded down, my TV feels good, but it seems to me like it would be just like my first set up with the dodge. In fact, I notice a major difference in my towing when hauling 40 gallons of fresh water-I think because Keystone decided to put the fresh take way up on the chassis so it feels like the hitch weight is way high-so I only carry water when necessary.

Ken / Claudia
11-25-2013, 03:46 PM
Greeniant, I agree with what your saying. Half of my cop job years were in traffic inforcement and I still look at traffic as I travel and notice alot, likely more than normal, it's just hard to quit it. I seen 2 1/2 tons yesterday on the freeway going to work, 1 pickup, 1 suv with large travel trailers both with rear ends dropped down, fronts raised. Fronts of trailers sloped down towards the TV. One had a WD hitch. Both overloaded. Many 1/2 tons can tow trailers thats not the point overloading is unsafe no matter how big the truck.
Fri, a co worker tells me his used Dakota he got last summer as 80,000 miles and it just blew the tranny, than says the guy towed a big boat with it. Bigger than mine (which is 3800 lbs). Is that why it failed, maybe.

tjl
11-26-2013, 12:48 PM
I made the mistake, many years ago, of getting a camper that was too big for my F150. Like an idiot I listened to the salesman saying sure it'll tow it no problem. Towing local it wasn't too bad. We decided to take a trip from Ohio to Florida and it was the trip from hades. When we got back I traded my F150 in for a F350 dually and vowed to never tow over weight again. It's just not worth it. I've had the dually for 13 years and and have towed all over the eastern US with not problems. Our current camper is a 2011 Springdale 311 RESSR with a gross weight of 9700 LBS. I can load the truck and camper up with gear and not have to worry about over loading it.

wallet14
01-09-2014, 07:13 PM
I used to travel with my mom and her boyfriend who used an F150 7700 package for a 26' jayco trailer. They were within weight and safe, but i never liked how the truck struggled going up large hills. When we got into the market, we bought our truck first. I convinced my wife that we were going with the truck that would pull whatever camper we got. Then when we got the camper it pulls it very easily and prevents any added stress (beyond the stress created by all the other drivers). We are so very happy with our setup!

Western Traveler
01-11-2014, 06:48 PM
I have 30 years experience in Industrial safety management and my training and experience tell me that exceeding any of the maximum established ratings of the manufacturer are by definition unsafe.

Exceeding any of the ratings is in my opinion an unacceptable risk.

My experience in regulatory/industrial safety compliance, accident investigation, hazard recognition and consequence awareness makes any unnecessary risk simply unacceptable to me. All risk can never be eliminated, why accept those that can? Always consider what can happen, and what your families safety is worth to you?

I hear this drum beat continually from our company's safety officer. It is contagious and the reason we recently upgraded our TV. Even though we were within weight limits it didn't feel right at a gut level. To ignore that was unacceptable.

I didn't want another truck payment but when I considered the possible consequences it was a no brainer.
Just sayin'

golfpro
01-20-2014, 10:56 PM
I think the people who are saying it is OK to tow with a small under powered truck are themselves towing with small under powered trucks, because the rest of us are too smart to do something like that.

JRTJH
01-21-2014, 07:28 AM
I think the people who are saying it is OK to tow with a small under powered truck are themselves towing with small under powered trucks, because the rest of us are too smart to do something like that.

It really depends on how you define "small" and "underpowered"... If you read the most recent Trailer Life magazine, there is an article about the evolution of tow vehicles. As the technical capacities of vehicles improve, so does the capability to carry/tow larger and larger loads using less energy. The automotive and RV industries are changing dramatically. The focus is on lighter, more aerodynamically designed RV's that tow easier. To compare a 5 or 10 year old 30' RV with one of today's 30' "ultra-light" models will demonstrate a significant weight reduction as well as improved towability. What used to weigh 4 tons is now "packed into 3 tons". That means the same "size" RV can be towed safely with a smaller vehicle. The newly revealed 2015 F150 boasts a twin turbo 2.5L ECOboost engine capable of producing more HP/torque than the current 5.0L that's installed in the current model. In that example, "small" and "underpowered" are at opposite ends of the spectrum, and "small" does not mean "underpowered".

If you were around and towing an RV in the 70's, you will well remember that 3/4 ton trucks had about the same payload as today's half ton "HD payload" and today's engine/transmission combinations produce far more rear wheel HP/torque than even the biggest of the 70's model pickups. My F250 has a larger GVW than my BIL's 89 GMC 3500 dually. You simply can't compare "yesterday's trucks" to "today's models".

Just as we evolve in other areas of engineering, automotive engineering is changing rapidly. What is a 'limiting factor" in on perspective of towing, can well be a "signigicant advantage" in another towing situation. Although bigger is usually sufficient, bigger is not always better.

rode2nowhere
01-21-2014, 04:07 PM
I will stick my neck out for you, I bought my first travel trailer on an impulse, was 28ft. I believe aerolite older model, did not look at weights at all and pulled it home with a 2 wheel drive pickup about 75 miles and was white knuckled when I got home, knew I screwed up so I got a 4 wheel drive and it was towable and always stayed local, got the urge to upgrade so went and traded for a new Dutchman, was probably 28 foot too, got equalizer hitch and off I went and stayed local, again did not check weights. Upgraded again and got a 35 foot sprinter which I know is 8200 lbs dry, around 1000 tongue weight, upgraded truck to gmc 2500HD diesel, and no I have never sat down and figured all the weights but I know the trucks capacity is 12,800 I believe without the weight distribution hitch I do use, I just assume I am good. I will figure out for sure before first trip for sure. Now you can hammer me:rolleyes:

TomHaycraft
01-22-2014, 03:58 AM
I think the people who are saying it is OK to tow with a small under powered truck are themselves towing with small under powered trucks, because the rest of us are too smart to do something like that.

Hey golfpro,

What size truck does it require to be "too smart to do something like that"? I might want to be with the rest of you.

Is the increase in smartness a linear or exponential relationship to the size of our trucks? And, what do you base your statement on? How did you control for variables? How was your study powered? And in your conclusion, what was the p-value?

Javi
01-22-2014, 05:06 AM
Hey golfpro,

What size truck does it require to be "too smart to do something like that"? I might want to be with the rest of you.

Is the increase in smartness a linear or exponential relationship to the size of our trucks? And, what do you base your statement on? How did you control for variables? How was your study powered? And in your conclusion, what was the p-value?

This is just my opinion based on a lifetime of towing and engineering so take it for what it's costing you... If you exceed the limits set by the manufacturers highly paid design engineers, you might be a few bricks shy of a full load. :D

It is for now an individual's right to exceed those limits and gamble that their opinion is more correct than the battery of highly paid individuals who are paid those lordly sums expressly to provide a margin of safety for the masses and cover the butts of their bosses and shareholders. Can they be wrong? Certainly... but is it smart to gamble with your life and those unlucky enough to be around you at the moment you find out that those highly paid engineers were right after all. :D:D

JRTJH
01-22-2014, 05:39 AM
This is just my opinion based on a lifetime of towing and engineering so take it for what it's costing you... If you exceed the limits set by the manufacturers highly paid design engineers, you might be a few bricks shy of a full load.

It is for now an individual's right to exceed those limits and gamble that their opinion is more correct than the battery of highly paid individuals who are paid those lordly sums expressly to provide a margin of safety for the masses and cover the butts of their bosses and shareholders. Can they be wrong? Certainly... but is it smart to gamble with your life and those unlucky enough to be around you at the moment you find out that those highly paid engineers were right after all.

Good Morning, Javi. I'm guessing you've had at least 3 cups of coffee already.... <grin>

HOLY SMOKES !!!!!!!!!! (And I thought I spoke in "doublespeak" ) LOL

I think, (yes, it's still early and I'm on my first cup of coffee) <I know, that's another thread>, but I think you said that the "highly paid engineers" establish truck limits and it's not smart to exceed those limits. If you do, it's a gamble with your life and those who might be around you when all heck breaks loose.....

Like you, I pretty much respect the design limits those highly paid engineers build into our trucks. Pushing the limit right to the edge isn't real "smart" and exceeding the limits is just plain da*ned dumb......

Yes, we do have a few members who exceed their limits, some of them just don't weigh their rig. They're the "Ostrich among us". Some honestly believe that if you don't have a 1 ton dually, you shouldn't tow anything bigger than a breadbox. They're the "Macho-men's among us". And there are some who "kinda get it" but think a little bit more won't hurt. They're the "Experimenters among us". Then there are the "realists among us". They do get it..... (and they are the kind of RV'er I don't mind being behind on the interstate.......

When the experimenters and the macho-men get together and when the ostrich meets the CAT (scale that is), things will settle down in the "how big of a truck" category. Will it be "cool" then???? Probably not, we'll just move on to "which oil is best" or "which hitch do you need" or "what pressure to set your water regulator" or some other "equally important discussion" :rolleyes:

That's part of what makes this forum so diverse, we get to see (and hear) all kinds of opinions. Some make lots of sense, some we already agree with, and some are so far out there, the Shuttle couldn't get to them in time......:p In many of them, a lot of us learn something that's valuable and that will help us in the future.... (If we're not too old to forget we learned it).

So I agree with you, "assemble your bricks" all in one load and don't tow yourself with a "short load" :D

OK Barney, you "level-headed, forgetful one" time to weigh in with your "brick load" :rofl:

TomHaycraft
01-23-2014, 05:40 AM
This is just my opinion based on a lifetime of towing and engineering so take it for what it's costing you... If you exceed the limits set by the manufacturers highly paid design engineers, you might be a few bricks shy of a full load. :D


All points well made. However, all trucks can be overloaded, from mini-pickups to the Peterbilts and Freightliners. To lump all who own 1/2 trucks and pull trailers as less smart than 3/4 and 1 ton owners ... doesn't deserve a description.

Many of us with 1/2 ton trucks have CAT receipts to show we are within the engineers limits. That and a good dose of common sense gets us home every night.

Safe travels, y'all.

bmach
01-23-2014, 10:51 AM
And let's not forget not that long ago trailers were pulled with the family sedan.

Javi
01-23-2014, 11:48 AM
And let's not forget not that long ago trailers were pulled with the family sedan.

Yes... at 40-45 mph topping out at 55 downhill :D

hankpage
01-23-2014, 12:05 PM
And let's not forget not that long ago trailers were pulled with the family sedan.

And your family sedan weighed as much as todays 3/4 ton pickup. http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_109254_0_ccffc8636760ace1897610f2bc2a63d2.gif

bmach
01-23-2014, 12:38 PM
Not true around 4,000# which is much less. And the Chevy 327 had up to 360"#of torque.

rhagfo
01-29-2014, 08:22 AM
Well, The Sunset (HY26) isn't always dry and sunny either. This is a picture from our return from a four day trip to the coast in January 2011. No traffic was not going 55 to 60, more like 35 to 45!!

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_110144_0_19e5609f584a011f533928a10c99c090.jpg

Absolutely beautiful picture, thank you. We are here in SoFla 11 years without snow! But we already rented a cabin in Vermont, as well as JGC to get there!

Well did you need to go to Vermont to see snow this year??

Sounds like these may be the driving conditions up on the Panhandle!

jbh512
03-20-2014, 09:35 PM
I see that this post hasn't been active in a while but I wanted to "weigh" in anyway. I'm curious as to what a "safe" number is? For instance, if you were pulling a dry weight trailer of 4300#, with a rig that is capable of towing 6500#, is that too much even after you add 1000lbs of gear? You are still 1200 lbs from the max. I'm not going to get into tongue weights, but you get the point. I think it's funny that some people here think others are foolish for using smaller vehicles to pull their TT. I am by no means advocating exceeding the vehicle manufactured limits but come on, not everyone can afford or even wants a diesel for their daily driver and would still like to enjoy owning a TT. BTW, if anyone thinks that having a diesel dually pickup can some how replace common sense, just check out u-tube and TT crashes. There is a nice one with an "old man" who wasn't that "wise". Another thing, vehicle manufactures have an awful lot to lose if they were to advertise that their equipment could handle more than they actually can. In fact I am of the belief that they understate their capabilities to avoid lawsuits.

TomHaycraft
03-21-2014, 02:14 AM
"Safe" is somewhat relative and arbitrary, short of the weight ratings for axles, vehicles and the combination thereof which should not be crossed.

I contributed my thoughts to this thread previously (and other 1/2 ton truck discussions) and will stand by my statements, yes, it can be done. What has been lacking in these threads are the real-life experiences based on a metric we can compare across the various setups.

The reference point I have started relating my experience to is % of towing capacity (for my setup is 80%) or maybe more appropriate is % of GCWR which then also accounts for payload in the tow vehicle (I'm at 89%).

To be clear, I have a 5th wheel and therefore comparisons are apples and oranges to TTs where there is a difference in frontal area and stability. That aside, reality of my experience is that I run out of power on the interstate when trying to hold 60 to 65 mph into headwinds. Typical for my transmission to shift between 4th and 5th (6-speed auto), but in the headwinds (12 to 15 knots and above), I get more frequent drops to 3rd gear with rpms kicking up to 3,500. The engine has nothing more to give at that point.

Braking down a 10% grade was okay last week into Palo Duro Canyon State Park (Texas) and I got out okay. Due to the nature of the road, 15 to 20 mph was fine and it isn't near as long as a climb to crest the continental divide.

For now, I'm happy with the setup. When it comes time to replace the truck and if money is available, I will step up to a 3/4-ton with diesel. Do I feel safe in my configuration? Yes.

Hope this helps.

RedOne
03-24-2014, 06:47 PM
l happily running down the road with this...

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_118517_0_3192068b1ac3217b2c79b56f07d19200.jpg (http://s125.photobucket.com/user/Shadow_Grey/media/Cougar%205th%20wheel/20130712_125302_zpsc7050bf7.jpg.html)

Heading to Portland, OR next month with this...

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_118517_1_abf3c3f66403b50facfb12ebb696e272.jpg (http://s125.photobucket.com/user/Shadow_Grey/media/2011%20F-150/20140321_172600_zpse2acc3f1.jpg.html)

Runs and feels good going down the road...plenty of power and plenty of stopping...let the truck do it's thing and the trailer(s) do their thing...together!