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Bugle Boy
05-19-2013, 07:59 PM
I will be a Keystone Cougar owner in two days. I have been participating in this Forum for a few weeks on a limited basis. I have seen a lot of pluses and a lot of minuses here.

Is Keystone aware of this Forum and the problems and issues that some Keystone owners have? It seems that a group of owners such as this should have some power over influencing the Keystone company to take pride in and back up their products.

My Sunline TTs have both been great. The Sunline Company is no longer in business (closed in late '06) and their trailers had a 3 year structure warranty and 2 year component warranty. The Keystone 1 year warranty does not compare favorably with that......Why only 1 year?

My assessment is that the company has some Quality Control issues or just plain workers who don't do a good job or do not care about quality of their work and/or are poorly supervised.

We as owners should not quietly accept poor quality or workmanship. We as a group have a voice.

I propose we gather our thoughts and use that voice to move the company to improve Quality Control and back up their products.

Festus2
05-19-2013, 09:42 PM
Bugle Boy -

Let's look at some facts before we start a movement to persuade Keystone to improve its products, quality control and take more pride in their work.


If you read the "disclaimer" written in red at the bottom of the page, it states quite clearly that this forum has no connection with Keystone. I am one of the original members of this and the old Keystone forum and to the best of my knowledge, we - as a group - have never been in communication with Keystone. We have no way of knowing whether or not Keystone monitors the forum and "takes notes" or simply ignores us. While it would be nice if they did read the posts, I am not about to lose any sleep if they don't. After all, the forum is for "us" not "them".

Some time ago, the forum took a survey of its members and asked them if they would buy another Keystone product. The results showed that over 90% indicated they would. These results do not point to a wide display of dissatisfaction amongst forum Keystone owners. Quite the contrary - the survey illustrates that a very large majority of Keystone owners are happy with the product.

I think it is a fact that almost all of us have had various problems come up from time to time with our RV's. A few of these issues have been fairly major while most of them have been minor and have been fixed by the owner. Could Keystone improve its quality control? Of course it could along with almost every other manufacturer of all products. Are their RV's any worse or better than others? I think not. Are the vast majority Keystone owners getting a reasonable product for their money? I think the answer is yes.

You may be right when you say Keystone workers don't care about the work they do, couldn't care less about the quality and Keystone supervisors who let slip-shod work slip by. But you may be wrong. How are they different from the assembly line workers and supervisors at the Forest River RV plant? We have no way of knowing.

If you are suggesting that a group of us band together and start a campaign and make "our voices heard" and that by so doing we will have some kind of influence upon Keystone and the way it runs its business, then in all due respect, I think you are mistaken.

I am sure you are aware that forums are sometimes seen and used by a few disgruntled owners who, for a variety of reasons, are not happy with Keystone. They appear on the forum, vent and stomp up and down, and then disappear. They've had their turn on the soapbox and contribute nothing constructive. They are angry and upset and have nothing but negative comments to make. They are looking for an audience and we are good listeners. Don't be fooled into thinking that they represent the majority of our members and that we should unite behind them and march on Keystone.

If you, as an individual, want to express your dissatisfaction with the quality control, the lack of pride and workmanship and the failure of Keystone to stand behind their products, then I would suggest that you do so. In addition, when you do receive your new Cougar and find that there is evidence of shoddy work and have issues with the Customer Service department at Keystone, then I think your voice would have more credibility. You are being critical of Keystone based on what you have read here on the forum. Having not yet had any first-hand, real world experience with a Keystone product it may not be fair or reasonable to judge Keystone just yet.

davidjsimons
05-20-2013, 01:30 AM
Bugle Boy, As a current owner of a 2013 Cougar 28 RBS, let me say that I have experienced no quality control issues with my unit. I believe there are people out there, such as myself, from which you never hear. I feel that for the money spent, I got a good product from Keystone. Given the reason to buy another RV, I would buy another Keystone product. Another area that helps with my overall satisfaction is a good selling dealer. I found my best deal close to home and have established a pleasant relationship with the staff. I have no regrets and don't know what could have been done to make my experience any better, of course unless I had won the RV. Just sit back and take delivery with an open and fair mind and never mind the negative hype that has no impact on your experience. Enjoy your new Cougar!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Lost
05-20-2013, 03:47 AM
Bugle Boy, No matter what you buy chances are that you will have some issues. 99% of all TT are made on a production line were time is an issue. As with all companys their major controllable expense is Labor. No company wants to put out an inferior product or they will be out of business very fast. I could go on and on with this subject but one thing that I have learned is that before you buy a TT that you do some serious checking on the dealer who your buying it from. Do they support the product after the sale, Is it in a timely matter, etc. That will make all the differance when you have issues and peace of mind knowing your dealer has your back.

hankpage
05-20-2013, 04:33 AM
Bugle Boy, You are the final QC inspector. Make sure that everything is to your satisfaction before you sign the final paperwork. http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=251&pictureid=1172 I'm curious .... If you did not think that Keystone made a product of acceptable quality for the price ..... Why did you purchase one?? If you are going into this deal thinking that you are buying junk ..... I sincerely hope you will be disappointed with a quality trailer and the very enjoyable lifestyle that it offers. Travel safely and I hope to hear positive news from you soon, Hank

GaryWT
05-20-2013, 04:38 AM
The best way to voice your opion is to walk, if you don't like the product, shop elsewhere. Unfortunately in the RV business you can very well have more issues elsewhere. We owned a Heartland product and I remember drive to the dealer after our first trip to have 8-10 fixed on it. Same deal but with a Keystone product and no issues.

99% of people who have issues are going to tell us about them where as on 2-3% of the people with no issues will tell you that. Those that are happy usually keep quiet.

An interesting story about a place I was seasonal, one day about 10 families got together and made a list of all the changes they wanted at the campground because they did not like this or that. They went to the owner en mass with the list. The owner looked at it, said sorry you are not happy here, you have 24 hours to vacate the property with all your belongings, have a nice day. He who owns the land or company makes the rules and we decide if we like it better here or there.

jsmith948
05-20-2013, 05:00 AM
Very interesting thread. Thank you, Festus2, Hankpage, et al for your reasonable and well stated responses. I agree. We have had no real problems with our Cougar. One issue with the slide (simple adjustment) and the TrailAir equalizers (replaced under warranty). Does the quality compare to our custom ranch style? No. But for the money, a good value.
I wonder if these negative posts are just an over reaction fueled by frustration - or are these posts planted by a Keystone competitor?

antiqfreq
05-20-2013, 05:06 AM
I guess Lemons are found everywhere in every business. I can truly say we got a gem when we got our fiver. No problems that my great hubby couldn't fix all by himself. Never gone back to the dealer for anything.

We hope to get many more years out of it before my ole' knees wear out and can't even go up 3 lousy steps! ha ha ha

Jo

:banghead:

Bugle Boy
05-20-2013, 05:15 AM
"You are being critical of Keystone based on what you have read here on the forum. Having not yet had any first-hand, real world experience with a Keystone product it may not be fair or reasonable to judge Keystone just yet."

Festus you are 100% correct on this. We will be making the final trade deal tomorrow. We selected a Cougar 31RKS because of the reputation, looks and layout. We did a walkthrough of many brands over the past year. We looked over, under and around and I saw no issues that gave me cause to question the Cougar. I found this Forum after we made that selection and signed the order papers.

This purchase is a huge step for us and reading some of the quality/maintainance posts here got me a bit nervous if not paranoid.

"Bugle Boy, You are the final QC inspector. Make sure that everything is to your satisfaction before you sign the final paperwork."

Hank, you also are 100% correct and I have my list and camera.


"Just sit back and take delivery with an open and fair mind and never mind the negative hype that has no impact on your experience. Enjoy your new Cougar!"

Will Do David!!

Bob Landry
05-20-2013, 05:38 AM
Keep in mind that Keystone builds trailers on an assembly line environment. In those types of environments, the bean counters accept a 3% failure rate, pretty much standard in any manufacturing industry. As long as they can stay within those numbers, it's cheaper for them to deal with issues on an individual basis rather than shut the line down, hence the warranty. That takes into account, or at least should, Mondays, Fridays, disgruntled workers, hangovers, PMS, etc.
I have had my Outback for two years and I've had minor issues, minor defined by me being able to fix them myself, so quality-wise, I have no beef with Keystone(so far). What I do have an issue with is their complete reluctance to provide even the most basic information when asked relative to electrical, plumbing, etc., in other word, things that would enable an owner to maintain his own trailer after the warranty. They seem to be in a perpetual state of CYA, so that is unlikely to ever change, and if there was something that would persuade me to go to another manufacturer for my next trailer, that would be it, not the quality of the trailer. I personally see no issue with telling a DIY owner how some plumbing is run or how something is wired, or where it connects.

Also, and in all fairness to Keystone, a lot of the issues you are going to read about here pertain to third party equipment that is simply purchased and installed by Keystone, not manufactured by them. we also have to wonder how many of these issues are really related to KS quality and not a result of poor maintenance, such as checking window seals, packing wheel bearings, poor winterizing, incorrect tire pressure, and the list could go on, but you get the idea.

michael
05-20-2013, 06:34 AM
We purchased a 2012 346lbq brand new,
From the start we had issues with the dealer and the trailer but understand everything man made isn't perfect,

We emailed the dealer and made phone calls and most important we kept our cool,
We calmly pointed out our issues and the dealer said they have changed there ways so no one else has to go thru what we did.

They have had our trailer all winter and now we pick up our trailer on the 21rst of may,

And we will see if they have done what was on our list of repairs we have been told everything is done. so until we see otherwise,

We are happy with Keystone products which in 2012 we bought two.
A new 2011 Sprinter TT which was purchased from another fine dealership.

And 4.5 months later traded that in for our currant 2012 346lbq fifth wheel.
And most of all we are very pleased with our service writer/ Dealer for seeing a problem and changing there ways. And they told us it will be washed before we pick it up now that's customer service.

diugo
05-20-2013, 07:37 AM
Despite the one year warranty and the fact it doesn't apply to fulltime RVers like myself, I wanted a brand new trailer and I believe I got excellent value for my money. I told the dealer if he knocked $1000 off his already good price, I would take care of all the minor piddly warranty issues myself. He agreed.

The first thing I fixed was the water heater. The outside opening had been cut in the wrong place and the heater was just floating in air 1.5 inches above the floor. That fix cost me the price of a 2x4.

A few months later, one of the two Lippert front landing gear failed while I was raising the trailer. Fortunately the other gear took the double load. I replaced it with vastly superior Atwood model for under $400.

After three years those were the only major problems. Right now my only real complaint is a squeaky floor. Seems the main walking corridor was "engineered" with a heating duct directly below it and insufficient (if any) additional bracing---relying only on the strength of the OSB flooring. I haven't decided yet whether to proactively fix it, or wait til I fall through :)

JRTJH
05-20-2013, 07:57 AM
Bugle Boy,

You made a statement in your original post that I'd like to address. You said, "The Sunline Company is no longer in business (closed in late '06) and their trailers had a 3 year structure warranty and 2 year component warranty. The Keystone 1 year warranty does not compare favorably with that......Why only 1 year? "

Is it possible that the longer warranty is a factor in why Sunline is no longer in business? There is a "fine line" in what we call "product support" and "Paying for repairs". In a longer warranty period like Sunline had, there is a huge potential for customer misuse and/or damage and distruction to be claimed by the customer and those repairs made under the warranty when they really are abuse and not the company's responsibility. There is also a big "burden" on the manufacturer to pay for what should be considered "normal wear and tear". This increases the cost of building an RV and is actually passed on to the customer by increasing the purchase price (MSRP) of the unit to assure the profit margin is maintained in the cost of doing business. Nothing is "free" in this world. If you have an "extended warranty" of, say three years provided in the purchase price, actually what Sunline did (to stay in business) was increase the price of their product to cover the increased cost of managing the warranty. OR: They decreased the cost of building it (cheaper materials/labor) to offset the cost of managing the warranty. Either way, the customer is really the one paying. There is no "free ride" and somebody has to cover the expense of repairing a defective RV. The manufacturer is responsible, but the money to pay for your repair comes directly from the profits made by selling RV's to other people, so in reality, Keystone doesn't pay to repair your RV, you do, from the profit they made of the sale to you.

Keystone has pretty much decided that a 1 year warranty is "cost effective" for them and provides "ample time" to discover true "manufacturers defects" and have them repaired at company expense.

In reality, the new RV warranty is geared toward repairing defects in the building process, not a "maintenance contract" to keep fixing things as they break after years of ownership.

We had an Airstream back in the late 60's. It, along with Avion, were the premier RV's. The "rolls royce" of trailers. Towing it off the dealer's lot the first time, the bottom fell out of the bumper electrical cord compartment and on the way back to have that repaired (after less than 2 hours of ownership) the side mounted table in front of the sofa detached from the wall and tore the carpet and the front edge of the sofa. So, our "best of the best" RV actually "fell apart before our eyes" in the first 2 hours of ownership. My Springdale hasn't done that, so maybe Keystone is doing something "right" in the quality of the RV's they send out the assembly line door :)

Bugle Boy
05-20-2013, 08:17 AM
"Is it possible that the longer warranty is a factor in why Sunline is no longer in business?"

No one knows for sure why they closed their doors. We toured the factory in Pa. in April 2006. We were impressed and were going to buy their 276 SR model the following spring. Around January 2007 we learned that one Monday morning in November of 2006 the employees arrived to work and found the place locked up and a sign on the gate "No longer in business." No hint, no warning. It was speculated that a competitor bought them out and shut is down.

We were so impressed with the Sunline that in April 2007 we found the exact model we wanted and bought it with no warranty except the component warranties by the manufacturers. It has served us well. With the grand kids grown it no longer meets our needs. With just the two of us we want living space, not bunk beds for kids and the Cougar 31RKS is our choice.

michael
05-28-2013, 11:09 AM
I went to pick up my camper on the 21rst of May.

First words from the service writer were I thought you were picking it up on the 27th,
Then he said he had to get it from the back lot, I told him I think its still in the front lot he said no its in the back so I told him my mom was waiting with her 5ver and her dog in the Resturant parking lot across the street,
And I would go have lunch and be back in 45 min.
When I returned the fiver which I thought was mine in the front lot was now in front of the service door and yes its my 5ver .
So in short they had all winter to have it ready by the 21rst of May and from the time I arrived I was there about 4 hours. when he told me it was ready my remote wouldn't work for the slides, landing gear or nothing else so I purchased 2 little battery's 1 for a spare. $10 dollars huh it still dosent work so the service writer says there should be a battery shut off switch and the battery was dead because it was on all winter long. Well they winterized it so he had a new battery installed at there cost.

So on one hand I am not happy, I originally was going to pick the 5ver up at 9:00 pm at night and not at 9:00 am had I have waited I would have had to spend the night until the battery was replaced.
So my advice try to always pickup your rv during business hours.

Anyway the rest of the week was Great I hope yours was too.
Oh by the way he came to me later and said he went and read our Email and yes it said we would be there on the 21rst. You just have to just love Emails nothing better then to back up what you said with proof.

Bugle Boy
05-28-2013, 11:47 AM
Well, after all my concern from reading the posts that led me to initiate this thread the tradein and delivery of our 2014 31RKS went very well. The staff went over everything and made sure we understood how everything worked. We took it to a park and camped for 3 days. Everything checked out fine, no leaks. Only issues were that there was no gas hose for the Aussie grill that came with the trailer and the water heater relief valve leaks.

On our way home we stopped by the dealer, Camping World in Springfield, MO and they gave us the missing gas hose with appologies.

The new Columbia, Missouri Camping World, 4 miles from our house will open this week. We will be arranging to have slide toppers inbstalled and the relief valve replaced.

Very impressed with the new Cougar and the Camping World deal thus far.

SAABDOCTOR
05-28-2013, 12:04 PM
THIS SEEMS TO BE the new norm picking up after hours. and never calling to confirm things are ready. Most of us try to have everything in order for the customer. but sometimes things slip away through the cracks. and please don't tell me you have never forgotten anything. It happens. a phone call to the dealership may have prevented the OMG we forgot to do your camper. and avoid the runaround and you having to wait. Just a friendly call to remind the dealer about what you were promised will go along way to provide smooth sailing. we all promise stuff we all forget.If you called him in the day before this may have been avoided. I am on both sides of the counter I feel your fustration. switch sides and you can see where a heads up might have helped. ok i'm climbing down off my:soapbox:now

Kristi
05-28-2013, 05:35 PM
Hmmmm.... Well, we had a great experience with our dealer thus far, the shopping (poor sales guy, I drug him through every tt on the lot), the walk through (poor tech, asked him to show us everything at least twice), and awning recall & decal replacement (found one of the decals not stuck to the trailer as well as we would like & we were concerned it would peel so they ordered a new one) as I said, so far we are really pleased :)

michael
05-28-2013, 05:43 PM
Okay so Emailing and getting confirmation 5 to 6 days prior to picking up the rv from the guy on the other side of the counter isn't enough.

Maybe I could buy people behind the counter a note pad or better yet a calendar book with dates and times so they don't over book and waste everyone's time.

So on my next delivery someone can call me pay for the material they want delivered and because I don't show up on Tuesday I can just look at them and say hay you should have called me the day before its not my fault.


Its all about Doing there job behind the counter


Its a good thing there are company's out there that take care of there customers not make excuses for not doing there job.

I accepted there apologies and excuses when I bought the camper for not doing there job at CW of Madison.

But I should not have to be made to wait again after I was told there way of treating there customers would change, And they would not over book,
They let me down. Keep in mind I made appointments and was there on time and I paid for the rv in full on time I did my job.
I still love the fiver just not happy with CW

Burlington Camping and travel are so far the best dealership I have dealt with and I have bought 3 rvs from them all with great customer service I only went to cw because they had the model I was looking for.

concours
05-28-2013, 06:17 PM
I was very disappointed at the start but my dealer stood by the product. All manufactures of any product has it's problems, trust me I have been in auto dealerships for 45+ years. The bottom line is buy local from a dealer that you trust and work with them, we are happy with our Keystone purchase but it took a while :cool:

jay123
05-29-2013, 04:49 AM
So after all the bad mouth:dizzy: you are happy:confused: If I was as unhappy as you sounded . I would have pass on the X lite TT or looked at higher model in the keystone line :eek:. Funny how things change from reading to seeing :rolleyes:

michael
05-29-2013, 04:53 AM
Let me say CW isn't the worst I have seen and I would buy from them again, If my other place doesn't have what I am looking for.
I just know now I need to add a few extra days and money for fuel when buying from them.
I guess
It is what it is.

SAABDOCTOR
05-29-2013, 06:29 AM
I see your point 5 or 6 days in advance. Personaly I would have still called before starting out. But if they still failed then it is time to find a better dealer. I too buy from local dealers not "big box stores" when it comes to major purchess. the local "little guy will most all ways try harder. my fav saying is "bigger better faster more" but that is for engine size horse power and speed. not CW.:D